I hope I don't offend anyone,I know there are alot of Mack lovers on here,but I've some issues with Mack quality,and I wonder if others have had similiar experiences with them. I'd always heard that Mack made a "tough" truck,and that they were built for dependability.So in 2003 I traded my 2000 Freightliner in for a Mack CX613 Vision,brand new.I wanted to get one built before the new EPA regs. took effect.It has a 460hp Mack E-tech motor.The truck has been horrible.It has spent months of combined total time in the shop,albeit under warrenty,and the laundry list of problems is long.I've 311,000 miles on it now,and in that time: The engine has been torn down 3 seperate times to find a knocking sound.They even sent a rep out to look at it,and he thought it was "spark knock"(on a diesel??)I drove it that way until 180,000miles when the cam went out.After it was rebuilt the knock was gone. The front drive axle ground itself to death internally due to the fact a large nut,in the PDL section came off.They determined that a locking device had been left off by mistake.The repair required a complete new housing,which I think was shipped by dog sled.The wait on this repair almost cost me my job. Four of the six wheel ends have had grease leaks,that required brake replacement(on my dime) An electrical problem causes the gauges to quit(always a different gauge each time)and then start working again.The engine will also just shut down while going down the road,then fire right back up.They though ground problems,but can't find it.It still acts up today. The radiator leaks coolant whenever it drops below zero.The end tanks are plastic,and held to the core via crimping,and a seal.It will leak 1/2 gal. per night in the winter,unless I continuosly plug it in.Don't leak when it's warm.They won't warrenty this because"Oh,they all do that!!" The plastic coolant tank cracked after 15 months,not under warrenty. The air to air cracked 4 months ago.Not under warrenty. The brackets holding skirts and plastic sub fenders cracked,both sides.Not under warrenty. The engine won't idle smoothly since new.They can't fix it,but"Oh,some Macks do that.It's normal!" The paint is falling off of the plastic front fender. I could go on and on. I have had to rent trucks,paying for them out of my pocket,in the first year, to cover my loads.I fought with the factory about paying for the rental,after weeks of having my truck in the shop.They said "ABSOLUTELY NOT!" The truck has come close to bankrupting me,from all the down time.I understand trucks can have problems,and I've owned three brand new ones,so I know they have bugs to work out when new,but this thing is absolutely ridiculous. I'm afraid to have it worked on too,the Mack garage takes forever to get it back to me,and they seem to mess up more than they fix. I'm just waiting until I've enough equity in it to trade it in.Did I just get the proverbial lemon,or has Mack just given up on quality?They remind me of AMF with Harley Davidson. When I was told Macks were "Tough" did they mean on my bottom line?
I'm sorry to hear of your troubles, I've had a similar experience with my F-550 and I know the frustration you feel. I've been away from heavy trucking for a while now and can't comment on Mack's current offerings, but I drove a DM600 for a few years in construction and in the first 100,000 miles the only problems were a blown hose clamp off an intercooler line and a set of brakes. I thought that was a great record considering the abusive element this truck worked in on a daily basis. I'd bet at least 1/3 of it's service had been spent doing site work. I've been considering the purchase of a 6 wheeler to replace my trouble plagued 550 and Mack was high on my selection list. It might bear some investigation considering your problems. I do recall a grocery distribution company having a number of problems with their new Macks in the mid 90s, this was when Mack started using computer modules for engine control. Their trucks would just die unexpectedly and restart after the tow without any work being done. I never did hear whether the had found the problem or not.
It has been frustrating,and I hate to unfairly label them "poor quality" if they are good trucks.I'm sure that their older models were indeed tough trucks.I've always thought in today's market,you'de have to have built good trucks or you wouldn't have survived this long.I know that Renault bought them out a few years ago,and more recently Vovlo and Mack have merged.I think my truck may be one of the later Renaults,because my engine has "Renault"cast into the block.I really believe the merger with Volvo can only be a good thing for them. I'm mostly disappointed with the support from Mack. I grew so tired of talking to the dealer about issues that I started calling the Mack headquarters,hoping they would pay for down time,or for the replacement truck rentals.I've no satisfaction with them.I even thought of just giving it back to them,and filing for bankrupcy during the engine fiasco,where I couldn't keep it on the road for more than a week,and then back to the shop. Luckily I've made it through the toughest times now,but it's left a bad taste in my mouth.It is also part of the reason I've migrated to the construction idea.When your primary income is dependant on one vehicle,it can make or break you.When I finally do get to wave bye-bye to this truck,I may get a day-cab,and a newer dump truck as replacements.I can continue my run with the daycab,and I've work for the dump truck that I pass up with my old Ford(too old,and too small a box to do serious work) Then ALL my eggs wouldn't be in one basket. I may go back to Freightliner also.I've heard many people run them down,but I've had two,and had really good luck with them.I think the dealer can make all the difference,if they care about their customers enough they sometimes can make things right,even if they have to oppose the factory on warrenty isssues.
My story is so similar to yours it's frightening! My 550 spent a total of 10 weeks at the dealer's this summer on two separate visits, and still has to make a return trip for repairs that were done improperly. I've been to 5 different area dealers with no satisfaction from any of them, and the national Ford number offers no help either. I'm a pretty passive guy but I was to the point I wanted to drive this thing right into the showroom creating my own door! I hope your story is an isolated one, I've always had a great respect for Mack as a kid, my parents were both from Pa. so I saw a lot of them, and my experience with my assigned truck in construction really impressed me as far as reliability is concerned.
It does sound similiar!!Maybe we've just had the "Bad Apples" in the bunch. The truck manufacturing market is in such a state of flux,with mergers and buy-outs happening often,it's hard to feel good about any brand. Ford trucks(now Sterling)owned by Freightliner,with Western Star,Daimler Chrysler,Mercedes Benz,and Detroit Diesel all under one parent corp. Kenworth,and Peterbuilt together in Paccar. Mack,and Volvo together. And they all have alliances with different suppliers.I like Cat engines,but can't have one in a Freightliner anymore.Mack and Volvo won't spec a truck with anything else than their engines now.I pray that it's going to be one of Volvos designs for both.Paccar won't spec Detroits for power now either.A guy may buy a Sterling(formerly Ford)with a Detroit(formerly GM,well along time ago!) The days where you could build your own truck from a list of your favorite component suppliers,when spec'ing I think are over."You can have any flavor you want,as long as it's vanilla!"
The two common brands here for dump trucks is Kenworth and Western Star with Western a little more previalant with the newer styles where as the Kenworth are the oldies with the twin round headlights A-B models. The old Ford Louisvilles are around most of them died of cab rust but there are still quite a few around. If I was going to buy a gravel truck it would be a T-800 Kenworth or a Western Star the new Stars have improved their cabs from the previous models. There are a few people here buying the Mack Granite they look like a decent truck don't know how durable they are. Mack has always been known around here for really low power,rough riding,poor turning radius and expensive parts last thing no offence they are just as ugly as a International.
I've never owned a Kenworth,but they'll be high on the list of considerations next truck.I don't know much about the T-800's,but I've been impressed by the T-600's. Although I like the looks of the W-900's,and Pete's 379's,I have to put fuel mileage fore front nowadays.I've got to swallow my pride,and climb up into whatever truck will get good fuel mileage,even if it's ugly.My Mack has averaged 6.15 mpg for the year,which is over a mile per gallon better than my last truck.About a $10,000 savings per year @ 100,000 miles/yr ave. & $2.75/gal. I just wish it were more dependable!!I know what you mean about the idle too!It SOUNDS like a big cammed gas motor,all lumpy,except for the fact it rubbed half the lobes off the cam in 180,000 miles. :eek2
The gravel truck is paid per hour our rate here is 75 dollars per hour if the price of fuel stays where it is the rate may go up to 80. No one hauls by the load if they do they are frigging fools the trucks here if they are waiting that gets charged out at 75 per hour. The trucks are regular tandem axles with 16'6" box carry 15 ton of material every contractor's truck carries the same amount of material. Every contractor here pretty much hauls for the same price if someone is under charging etc they will end up getting lynched by the other contractors. If you are really worried about fuel mileage then your hauling for way too cheap. The contractors trucks here range from old Kenworths from 1969 to new 2005 trucks all haul the same amount of loads etc. When it comes to gravel trucks you are not going to get a areodynamic truck its a rectangular lumpy object. A dump truck with farring is just going to get damaged. A newer truck with a electronic engine will get you better fuel mileage over a old mechanical engine. All most all the trucks here run 14 litre power with minimum 400hp with 8-13-15 and 18spds. For the contractors here areodynamics is the least of their worries they want a tough proven truck something that will stand up easy to work etc. In the 12 years of being around the excavation business have I heard of the contractors really worried about fuel mileage. If the people are not going to pay the rate the trucks don't leave the yard they won't find a truck to haul for them. The T-800 is one of the toughest vocational trucks you can get the next in line is the 4900 series Star the next inline after that is Sterling 9500 after that is International. You will be hard pressed to find a person buying a Pete dump truck they are a little pricey. Sterling is the budget truck like the Louisville Fords were you can get a 06 Sterling 9500 475 Cat 18spd 20,000lb front axle 46,000lb rear axle on spring suspension with a 16'6" Western style dump box for 140,000 dollars. A comparable Kenworth T-800 you will be looking at 150,000 dollars a tougher truck thou. As for the T-600s they were never really sold for vocational trucks the dump trucks you find that are T-600s are converted truck tractors.
Every market is different.I run my Mack otr. pulling a 53ft trailer.When your running all highway miles,fuel mileage plays a BIG part.It is my largest expense.This year will be over $40,000 in fuel run through the Mack alone.When your running a dump truck it's much less a concern,due to the fact your not racking up the miles.Fuel doesn't play much of a part when I drive my dump truck.There it is the time,like you say.Around here the rates for a dump truck are around $50/hr.I don't know with the conversion rates for Canada how that would compare.I get paid mileage with the semi,on a dedicated run.If I figure gross pay and divide it by the time it takes me,it comes out to $60.38/hr. I get a fuel surcharge which is calculated by: National ave.cost of fuel - $1.20/ 6.25= surcharge/mile So if the price were $2.75/gal. it would work out like this: 2.75-1.20=1.55/6.25=24.8 cents/mile in addition to the regular rate. To go from 5mpg to6mpg is $10,000 yr. at the current fuel prices If your trading every 4 -5yrs thats $40k-$50k in fuel savings alone in one otr truck.(1/3 to 1/2 the price of the new truck) I can see where the dump trucks need durability over fuel mileage.You wouldn't have much left if it was all plastic fairings,like the otr trucks,bouncing through a construction site.I'm going to downsize my semi next time and get a daycab,plus a tandem dump truck,or possibly a end dump,as there seems to be alot of work for them here.They haul alot of coal and rock salt out of Duluth up to the Iron Range. The sad part,when I compare running the semi,and my skid steer,is I get about the same rate either way.But I have hardly any of the expense running the skid steer.It's just too hit and miss though,while the trucking is steady.I'd like to do more with the dump truck,skid steer,and backhoe,but the semi keeps me busy most of the time,and I'm scared to drop something that I can count on,and take the dive completely into the other.So I'll try juggling it for now.
I wouldn't be worried about a T-800 Kenworth getting worse mileage it will be a tougher truck thou. You spec a tractor lowbed spec the truck will be good for 140,000lb gross like trucks here gross every day pulling B trains and lowbeds. The other truck I would look at would be a Western Star 4900 SA kinda looks like the T-800 but a little sleeker.
If I was going to buy a gravel truck it would be a T-800 Kenworth or a Western Star the new Stars have improved their cabs from the previous models. Mack has always been known around here for really low power,rough riding,poor turning radius and expensive parts last thing no offence they are just as ugly as a International.[/QUOTE] They still sort of pride themselves on low HP motors, you see petes and kenny triaxel dumps for sales with 550 cats and 13 or 18 speed. The macks got the same size dump body and 350hp or 427 hp with the 8LL, lower horse lower fuel. THere was an article in a construction trucking industry mag, where mack was saying for heavy hall low boy gigs, why have 550-600hp with a 427 or 460hp Etec motor will do the job? And as far as rough ride people spec out 46LB rears spring, with double frame. That air ride cab is the only thing saving them. Although Pete and Kenny still seem more expensive and the Mack and WS are closer in price. Its too bad its not like shopping for a car, theres no Edmunds.com for class 8s! If I was to buy, or when I do, Id love a Pete 397 but you cant really plow with that, so I guess Id use that as a heavy haul tractor. FOr a dump application where I would be plowing id have to stick with the Granite with a 427 horse 8LL heavy spec tri axle. Thats funny b/c out here, NJ, all I ever see are RDs and Granites. Western Stars are a close second and the Petes and Kennys are 3rd, Volvo 4th, and everything else few and far between. Stirling seems to be somewhat popular with smaller fleets or owner ops, or business that dont rely on the truck as much as a trucking outfit does. Since were talking about dump trucks, how does one go about getting work for it, do you sign up at the quarry and they hand out work, tell you where to go and send you off, your basically a sub though them or something? Ive been on jobs wheres theres like 5 or 6 different companies trucking material.
When a Mack is all Mack, a Mack engine, tranny and axles, the horsepower rating is measured at the axle, not the flywheel. That's why they seem to have low power, it's been measured after all the losses are taken into account. Around here, the company with the contract will hire trucks to haul if they don't have enough of their own. You, the truck owner, pay them a visit and let them know you're available, then if you've impressed them you'll get called when they need an extra truck. You must be very reliable if you expect to be called on a regular basis.
My Mack engine is called a E-Tech 460,although it's rated at 490hp.I don't know where they measure the power on mine,as I've Eaton tranny and rear ends.It may be like Steve said,measured at the wheels when all Mack,and at the flywheel with other drivetrain,I don't know. On other trucks I've had,and ones I've had dyno'd,they've told me that 80% of rated engine power "to the wheels" is acceptable.If mine was a 490 hp at the flywheel,then it should put a minimum to the ground of 392hp. Although I've not alot of work for my dump truck,I've gotton all of it through the contractor I sub for.I can only haul 5 yards,so it limits me to small jobs.I haul out of pits that are public(will sell to anyone)and try to find ones as close to the job as possible to keep cost down,although it sometimes is more profitable to haul from a farther pit when the pit prices are greatly different. For others in this area with larger dump trucks,there is a contruction co. that will give work out to any O/O's that have proof of insurance,and a drug screen.They are called on a "as needed" basis,depending on the amount of work.They do seem to stay busy enough to make it worth while.
If you do buy a Mack you want a Mack not a Mutt as meantioned a Mack is thier engine,transmission,axles and suspension (break your back camel back). A Mutt is a Mack truck with either a Cat,Cummins or Detroit power, a Fuller Road Ranger transmission, Hendrickson or Chalmers suspension on Rockwell axles. The other Mack dump trucks that were usually spec'ed with 350 Mack engine,12spd trans, Camel back on Mack 38s. The reason why Kenworth is so popular in B.C. Canada is its a widely used truck in the forestry industry. Kenworth was used in the bush for prolly 40 years plus. Western Star wasn't that popular actually Western Star really wasn't around earlier than the 70s when they used to be White trucks. Mack really was the only truck manufacture that did everything in house ie build their own engines,axles,transmissions,suspension and frames. You could order a Mack with after market parts but it was a mutt. In the 80s and 90s when the R models were built it was a common option to order a Mack as almost a full Mack except for the transmission was a Fuller as Mack made some pretty odd ball specialized vocational transmissions that didn't work for everybodies needs. The 12spd was one of Macks most popular transmissions its kind of like a Fuller Road Ranger Super 10.
In the 80s and 90s when the R models were built it was a common option to order a Mack as almost a full Mack except for the transmission was a Fuller as Mack made some pretty odd ball specialized vocational transmissions that didn't work for everybodies needs. The 12spd was one of Macks most popular transmissions its kind of like a Fuller Road Ranger Super 10.[/QUOTE] In the 80s they must have really pushed that 6LoHole tranny, the one with the 2 sticks, b/c any older R ive ever seen had that, ive driven it and it was perfect for local work, I guess the 8LL has sort of replaced that. Seems like to get steady dump truck work youve got to have contacts out the damn door, and at least a few good snow plowing account too. I thought it was nice and easy, sign up with the quarry or asphalt plant and they sub out to you, i guess not.
The older Macks here had 5+4s but the 6spds were non existant there is too many hills here in B.C. you need gears. The 12spd was a common choice in Mack trucks the 8LL is too.
We have two E7-427 motors in some CL triaxles and when we bought them we asked about the 460 ans the salesman said it was a newer motor that wasn't totally right yet, that was in 1998...well they both had cooling from the beginning and they both blew up..and Mack didn't want to know anyting for the crappy dealer...so needless to say our newer triaxle is a T800SH....great truck, no problems so far, looks good too.....
2004F550,I don't think they had the 460 motor figured out in 2003 either.My motor came with ceramic coated rollers on the valve and injector lifters,which were too replace the steel rollers they had on the earlier models.The earlier steel rollers were prone to failure,and the ceramic was Macks solution. Well,the ceramic rollers were later found to ALSO have a high failure rate,and more than one of mine had seized,causing flat spotting,and cam lobe failure. The dealership was instructed to replace my ceramic rollers with steel rollers by the factory????Both the dealership,and especially myself were puzzled with the flip flopping on roller construction.I have the uncomfortable feeling I've paid $100,000.00 to be part of a experiment on how to properly design an engine. If there is a "bright side" I've read that Volvo and Mack now have a completely new motor out,jointly designed,which is SUPOSE to be up to the task,with an overhead cam,rather than the "in block" cam the Macks had.Cat,Cummins,Detroit,& Vovlo had all switched to the more modern overhead cam design years ago. I'm not positive,but I think they may have had their electrical systems design by the infamous "Lucas" that left many British motorcycles on the side of the road.I can only hope Volvo talked Mack into letting him go too!!
Thats a little scary I didn't realize Mack used Lucas parts talk about expensive and azz backwards :lmao The old Maxidyne engines were good low on power but good torque the big V-8 500hp Mack produced was a flop.
On the other hand in our CL Tractor we have the E9-500 which has been a great motor for us, tons of power too.
Is that the motor that was in the superliner in the late 80s or early 90s? I thought cat made that? EIther way v8s and diesels dont go together too well, you lose too much torque.
The Mack V-8 was usually in the RW series Superliner it was pretty much known for the 500hp. It didn't do so well as it was a 4 cycle V-8 there was no engine retarder of any kind and I think it had head problems. The last and first time I seen a Mack V-8 was in a RW 713 that engine was definatly shoe horned between the frame rails it would be a biatch to work on. Cat makes a V-8 its the 3408 not a engine you will find used in highway trucks its a big brute.
Mack diesel V8's have been around for fifty years. They were originally notorious for failing mainly due to fuel injection pump problems. But they were always powerhouses. And they have always been available with the Dynatard engine brake since the brake was introduced.