You might have seen this question before, because I am trying to help the gentleman who also the member here! Can computer strategy on LB 160LX shut down pilot system if it sees something it doesn’t like? Mower was installed, using hammer dual pump priority valve. The original mechanic stated that he don’t hear oil going through pilot valves when mower is running. Loss of pilot pressure was not confirmed yet, as far as I know no pressure sensor is installed on mower circuit and connected to the computer. Thanks in advance!
Normally, all model or brand excavator have a pilot shut-off system but it's very simple: 01 micro switch + 01 solenoid valve. That's all, no need to computer processing. However, with option add-on devices, sometimes for safety, the microprocessor may have a separate signal line to turn off the option add-on device separately, preventing that device from working when it is unsafe. At that time, the Basic Operations of the machine will remain working properly, with only the optional add-in disabled.
I stumbled upon some hidden computer strategies before! The ones that even lead dealer techs or technical support doesn’t/didn’t know about! That’s why I ask that question!
In this case, the pilot system is a hydraulic system, to control it electrically, there must be a hydraulic solenoid valve. Just follow the electrical wires to see if there is a path to the micro-controller?
I had a Sumitomo excavator that would lose pilot pressure to the joysticks and the travel valve. I found out there was screens inside the pressure inlet fitting on each valve. All of them had accumulated debris restricting the flow.
This one looses all machine functions as soon as mower turns on! The guy on the ground ( WA, I am in AL), says he can’t hear the oil going through joysticks, he haven’t confirmed the loss of pilot pressure and not responding for two days now. So I am just brain storming here! Machine works fine with mower off!
This information helps to understand more. I think the mower took all the flow of the pilot pump ==> the pilot pressure dropped too low. the cause may be pilot pump was malfunctioning so it was no longer providing enough flow.
There is no connection between pilot circuit and mower circuit! Mower connected to main pumps through priority valve. I am more inclined to thinking problem is in the main pumps flow. But need to make sure the pilot side is covered. I am not about to pay for the machine manual just to find out if hydraulic shutdown solenoid is wired through ECM or not - that’s for the guy on the ground to do! I know my question is a long shot, just was hoping that someone who is really knowledgeable in Link Belt would know this stuff.
Or someone has a logic valve plumbed in wrong and the pilot is dumping to tank when mower is enabled? Maybe. On a side note, I've never heard pilot oil in the joysticks. It just kinda deadheads there waiting to be told what to do.
TVA...your brainstorming is giving me a headache. LOL I believe Lachau was saying that if your pilot and main pumps have a common suction that the flow of the main pump output could be overcoming the ability of the pilot pump to supply oil.
I heard oil going through pilot control valves on some machines, last one was CAT 304 CR, it might not be normal, but it happens sometimes. The mower DCV is D05/CETOP 5 solenoid controlled, so it is not needed pilot pressure from machine. There’s also possibility of ECM cutting pumps flow through EPPRV when it reads engine RPMs drop but no function pressure switches ON, but I am not sure about that.
There’s have to be one hell of a restriction in the suction for that! The machines system is 72 gpm, and mower using only 34.
I don’t know everything but I haven’t run across any ecm that can cut pilot pressure. That is done electrically or mechanically through the safety valve depending on the manufacturer.
I’m like FWF......I bet it isn’t plumbed properly.
Has it ever worked properly? Let's start at the beginning.
I haven’t ether! But I never messed with LBs let alone LX line up! So who knows what they did there?!?!
No, the guy who installed it is a Deere/ Hitachi guy, and have almost no knowledge of NFC type of machines. At first the connected mowers DCV LS line to a NFC line - effectively de stroking the pumps to minimal displacement. But last I heard from them that they took that connection away, but problem remained. But also he said he had 34 gpm on the mower side, so 17 gpm for stand by flow is one hell of a minimal displacement!!! That screw must be turned all the hell way in!!!
Linkbelt doesn’t do much differently than the rest of the manufacturers. If the manipulators die when the mower starts, then the pilot oil pressure is getting dumped.
You might be right! I read their commercial brochure, they claim they have some super-duper electronic control system in those LX, but weather it is the same as Case/Sumitomo, and just a sales gimmick, or they did something different - I don’t know! That’s why I ask this question!
I'm confused by this 2 pump priority valve. What hammer(when matched to the machine) needs 2 pump flow? Now if its 2 pump bi-directional for a volume hungry implement, ok. Where is this priority valve? How's it plumbed?
<<< getting gifs ready. In gotta go get smokes so you guys don’t kill each other til I get back. 45 minutes tops lol
I stated about stumbling on some hidden ECM strategies before! For example: Cat ( at least 312/315C) when ECM reads more then 1000 psi discharge pressure, and no function pressure switch is ON - it will reduce the pumps flow through EPPRV but will maintain that 1000 psi pressure. And you not going to find this information in the repair/service manual in the appropriate section! I stumbled upon this, breefly mentioned in totally different section, because I got frustrated and just started reading through that damn manual!!! These sort of things!
Some of the information is clearer. Then I suspect that the lawn mower's control wiring has affected the wiring that controls the lock lever solenoid valve. This is CASE CX160 lever lock circuit, it's exactly like the LB160LX. As every one can see....it's very..very..very simple one.
Good point Lachau, didn't even consider wiring. I let myself get focused towards hydraulics.
Lynch VP-HV! Basically two pressure compensated priority valves ( One for each for each pump), relief and flow control for controlled flow port. Takes flow for Hammer/mower first, and diverts rest further down to machines MDCVs! Installed in series between pumps discharge ports and MDCVs inlet ports! I know few people who bought these things to avoid paying more for PTO gear ( in case of Kawasaki tandem pump) and dedicated PTO pump to run attachments. It seems to run OK on Hitachi/Deer, but people with NFC machines have lots of problems with those!
Yeah! That’s the next thing I want to interrogate that guy on?! How in the hell they wired that thing!!!
And, I would think this priority acts as a control in that it generates LS signal to pumps? Is that correct.
Well! The priority valve has LS port ( as well as G port for gauge) connected to a CF port, so it is basically reads mowers main pressure, but mowers DCV also has LS port which supposed to read the pressure on the “working” side of the spool to control just regular open loop piston pump like A10VO or Sauer Series 45, or Oil gear PVG ( that’s what mostly runs on forestry attachments) with LS controllers. So you are right about this one!!!
The difference between hammer and mower or other dynamic attachments - nobody expects you to move machine much while you using the hammer!!!
That and whether or not you need bi-directional flow, return through the control valve or straight to tank.
I’m pretty sure it is straight to the tank! Wonder weather they wired Priority valve solenoid to pilot valve solenoid circuit, and “robbing” pilot solenoid amperage while priority solenoid is ON! Just texted him this question! If they wired priority solenoid straight to lock out switch, and used thicker gauge wire then one that going to pilot lock out solenoid - this may be the problem!
So if LB LX line similar to Case CX line - then LB Quantum line similar to Case 90**B? Is it so?!?! Because as far as I remember the first gen. of Case 90 series was a Drott excavators. And 88 series - Poclains.
From my understanding, your are connected straight to the mower through a priority valve from the pumps. There is a specific priority valve available from Case for these types of applications that require constant flow. I'm assuming you did not plumb the mower through the aux valve due to flow fluctuations. I believe you likely have a wrong priority valve installed (or miss adjusted) , and its messing with your pumps. Any pictures or part numbers available?
It is not me, but someone I try to help who installed this on that machine without knowledge of NFC system. Unfortunately I think I am not getting good feedback, and last two days I am not getting feed back at all! Don’t really know the reason why they didn’t plumb it through Aux. Circuit! In my understanding the NFC should self adjust its flow while using mower, because flow drop to MDCV also drops the NFC pressure because there will be no flow to resist to to induce the pressure! But the mower circuit will induce discharge pressure plenty enough to provide for swash plate movement of the pumps. So the whole set up should automatically adapt it self to satisfy mowers demand for flow, plus to build enough NFC pressure to de stroke the pumps at new position. But all of that is only true if everything is plumbed and adjusted right! Here is all the information I have on that priority valve:
Here is diagram of the valve closer:
They forgot to draw pilot symbol on centering spring side of the spools, but here is correct one from Sun Hydraulics:
That looks like a bunch of extra garbage when the auxiliary spool could have easily satisfied the needs of the implement. It's like it's own control valve . If the machine has a supposed 74 GPM available why couldn't one pump supply the 34 needed for the attachment? I always like to use factory add-ons where possible. I think a foot pedal control and the aux spool would have more than sufficient for his application. That also would reserve P2 for basic functions
Well! “And the mystery of that is great!!!” Frankly - I think they should have used dedicated PTO pump for that, if they went to the trouble of buying and installing the mower! Because with the mower you need the almost full functionality of the excavator less digging power, manipulating around the trees and shrubs. And with set up like this you greatly reducing that capability! But I know some scrap yard people who try to run hydraulic gensets for magnets through those things, have bunch of problems with it also!!! That one is total oxymoron, because I don’t think that hydraulic genset is a lot more cheaper then the diesel one!
Typically diverters were on each pump for mower service as they didn't want all the flow coming from a single pump. That is what allows operation of the machine at the same time as the mower. Diverter valves have to have orifices installed to set the flow to the mower. That takes a flow meter and plenty of experimentation to set up. On a negative flow control, you have to tee into the NC lines and dump it to tank in order to get the pumps to stroke up when running the mower. The problem is what little control that the NC does provide as far as load sensing is then gone as the pumps then try to over load the engine. Then you get to play around trying to find the right size orifice again to limit the amount of NC oil into the drain circuit. As far as the pilot circuit goes, there is a pilot tie in at the pumps which is used as one of the balance functions in the pump control valves. That shouldn't affect anything else. That someone could hear pilot oil through the joy sticks indicates a plumbing problem. You can put a gauge on the pilot circuit and watch the pressure go away to check that. I've not worked on that series of Link-Belt and can't confirm if the system is Negative Control or not. It may be something totally different now.
I had an idea of pilot operated pressure reducing valves installed in to both NFC lines and adjusted just enough of NFC pressure drop to run the mower. Those will drop the pressure only when there will be a pressure signal from priority valve. For the same reason - didn’t want to push all the available flow through the system and overload! But then decided to check out things on pilot side before proceeding! This priority valve uses adjustable flow control instead of orifices to adjust for the needs of different attachments.
I have just found the exact hydraulic diagram of the LB 160LX and I want to share it with everyone.
This diagram already shown PTO pump ( I guess as an option) and control valve for it, item 56, named “second option valve”!
Yes, The hydraulic system of Link-Belt 160LX excavator is a "NEGATIVE FLOW CONTROL" . You are right when talking about how to get pump to stroke up. I don't really know how they did to reduce the NC pressure to stroke up the pump when running the mower while they have installed a CETOP 5 solenoid valve for the mower's hydraulic circuit??!!
Sorry guys, I'm the "original guy" who TVA is referring to. I rarely look at this forum on the weekends and this weekend my father-in-law was taken out of a care facility and brought back home for what appears to be his last few days of life. So I just stumbled on this thread this morning. Thank you to Vlad (TVA) for all his help so far and to the rest of you also. As far as using the extra spool in the main control valve, the machine has a thumb on it which uses the extra spool. When I told Vlad that I could not hear oil going through the pilot valves what I meant was as soon as the mower is running there is absolutely no pilot functions available. Usually when you move the pilot valve you hear something, a slight squeal, a change in engine rpms, something to indicate the pilot system is working. This has absolutely no change when stroking the pilot valve. As far as wiring goes, I came off the fuse box to a toggle switch and then back to the DO5 valve and the Lynch valve. I will have to look again to see which fuse I used. This machine digs dirt most of the time and the mower head is not usually with the machine so I never know for sure when I can work on it again. I understand the machine needs to be working but it does make for a long drawn out process. Thank you again to all for your help so far.
Going back through my mental notes, the electrical end of the pilot system appears to be working since the boom and stick will drop when moving the joysticks. No lift or swing ect.
It means no flow for main controls. Pilot is operational. I think!
Some pilot systems have an accumulator for safety reasons so just because those functions go down doesn’t necessarily mean you have normal pilot oil pressure. It still seems to me that when the mower is on it’s robbing flow for your other functions. It could be as simple as robbing the pilot oil and the pressure just being too low. It really needs some pressures checked to narrow the problem down and get going in the right direction.
You are right Vetech! I think first thing Gary got to do when he gets to the machine is read pilot what pilot pressure is doing when mower is running.
None o that matters right now. Family first. We'll be here when you get back. Take care of yer wife. Best wishes
I'm with FWF, take care of the family stuff. That is more than enough stress to have to work through. Give me a call if you would like some input in the future. Good Luck!
Amen to that!
Just want to all you guys know how good of the person Gary is! Years ago we talked here on the forum about some information, and Gary tried to share some with me, it didn’t go over the Internet, so Gary went out of his way to print around couple hundred of pages and went to the Post Office and mailed it to me. Since then I’ve been driving a few times through Everson and Bellingham to BC, but always was so damn in a hurry to stop by and buy Gary a lunch! Thank you sir again, and apologies that I never could find time to stop and have lunch with you!!!
Thanks guys. Unfortunately as most of you know and have experienced it's really hard to shut off the brain so the problem is always there. But yes, family comes first. That is also part of the reason I try to stay of this forum on the weekends. I'm probably pretty unusual but believe it or not, over the course of over 40 years of being a mechanic (the last 37 self employed) I have only worked 1 or 2 weekends. It's amazing how many people want you to work weekends but when you tell them no, I don't do that, it seems to be OK. Obviously you have try everything possible to get them going before the weekend but it doesn't always work that way.
I can’t shut my brain for anything in the world! Unless I am deadly tired! Especially if I have unfinished projects! Constantly getting flack from my better half about “not knowing how to relax and ruining her and kids life with that”!!!
Last time I didn't read carefully TVA's post!!! If they installed only VP-HP priority valve then the mower couldn't operate!! Because there is no negative control path for the main pump to increase pump flow. In the below image, 02 yellow lines are "NEGATIVE CONTROL" paths from main control valve of excavator .
By the way, I just bought a LB 160LX service manual to share with you. http://www.mediafire.com/file/18zn9415er751dg/LB160LX+(SH160-3)+Service+Manual.pdf/file
Yes, sir. This fact was discussed healthy amount in this thread. I informed everyone that LC line of mower watch connected to the NFC line(s) through shuttle valve(s) which is counterproductive. John C and FWF touched on this subject also.
Thanks a lot!!! You didn’t have to! But it is always great to have information!
Oh no, please don't mind that. Regarding to mower attached to Link-Belt 160LX. I want to emphasize again that 160LX excavator with only the priority valve installed, the lawn mower cannot work. So, I assume our friend hasn't fully investigate this lawn mower attachment system yet. The mower system must have one more component to make the pump increase flow while operating.
May be, maybe not! Read my post about system self adjusting it self. We only know that mower’s solenoid controlled DCV has LS line. Most likely it is closed center LS type of controls. Which means that when you hit the switch priority valve will push all the flow available to the mower, which at that moment is a dead head! Now look at the priority valve schematics! If you have high pressure on both sides of the 2a and 2b, the compensator spool will always push 100 psi towards directing flow to mower side. Up until time when pumps will push more flow then flow control (3a) can pass through, and start building up pressure 100 Psi more upstream of the flow control (3A) then the pressure downstream from flow control. When pressure on top of 2A and 2B will be 100 psi more then at the bottom of the 2A and 2B, at that point spools will move to the middle, I.e. - combined flow. What going to happen next - I’ll let you to figure it out!
BTW! Does anyone knows what brand and model the main pump in that thing?!
It's two kind of main pump: KAWASAKI or UCHIDA K3V63DT... UCHIDA A20VO60...
I propose an option as follows: add a hydraulic directional solenoid valve to the system.
Hey! Thanks! For some reason I didn’t even know about that pump! I guess it is not used in “my neck of the woods”!!! Any chance that you know who makes SBS120/140 pumps, because I have a hard time believing CAT makes its own excavator main pump.
IMO, this project needs to bee investigated further, because there’s still a lot of unknowns, and with that still stuff that can go wrong. I am still not convinced that this system can adjust it self automatically, when corrected. But even if it doesn’t, I don’t like to constantly push full flow of the pumps through the system - it will create unnecessary heating and premature wear on the components.
I disagree in the case of the mower application. You're only really loaded at start up, after that you're relying on inertia and flow, correct? It's not like your asking it to move mountains just cutting grass and foliage. What d ya think? Something to think about.
High flow rotary attachments usually do increase the amount of heat in the hydraulic system. I've been involved in a few where extra coolers had to be installed. What I've learned from those experiences is that if you are going to use something like a mulcher or slasher all the time, you are far better off putting another engine and hydraulic system on the machine to run the attachment without digging into the machine's hydraulic system. If it is a sometime operation, you should know that you are going to affect machine operation by slowing things down and causing plenty of other issues. I've only had one customer that understood that running a mulcher means the entire machine is no longer an excavator and cannot be used in the same way.
We still don’t know what pilot system doing while mower is running - there’s really small chance that is something wrong with pilot - but never say never. still don’t know what type the mowers DCV - open/fixed displacement or Or at least use dedicated PTO pump ( that’s what this mower wash designed for IMO), it will still load up the engine and machine functions will be slower because ECM will reduce the pumps flow reading engine RPM drop. But at least you not going to be pushing excessive flow through things. And these newer machines present additional challenges running with additional equipment, for instance this generation have main pressure transducer s and previous didn’t. So if you not running something through designed aux. Circuit it will take person who have extensive knowledge of that ECMs programmed strategy to know how this computer will react by reading the Increase of main pressure without reading the signals from functions pilot pressure switches and sensors.
That thing is using 30 something GPM and set at 4200 psi - that’s a considerable load. I think this one designed to mulch a small tree. Like I said - there’s still a lot of unknowns about this thing.
Hoping to make it up to the machine tomorrow. This machine uses the Kawasaki K3V63 pump. I will be checking pilot pressure at the control valve and am also thinking I will install flow meters in line, between the Lynch valve and the MCV just to see what the pumps are doing while the mower is running. The mower head is a D&M Slashbuster head, manufactured in Montesano, Washington. I dealt with them probably 20 years ago when I did some work for Asplundh Tree Services. They had heads mounted on various different makes of excavators and always used the machine hydraulic system. The only time we had heating issues was when they were working at 3-4000 feet elevation and an 80-90 degree day. Unfortunately, when I priced having them do this plumbing install it seemed extremely high priced so we did the job ourselves. Now in hind site maybe their price wasn't so bad. Never to old to make mistakes and learn something new. D&M has a pretty good website with some good videos of their products operating.
Main thing is plug both LS ports ( in priority valve and mowers DCV) for now and not connect it to the machine, for now! Get the nagging pilot question resolved and out of the way. Flow readings would be just great. And I really want to have information on that mower control valve! Will be waiting for a feedback anxiously!
Please investigate it carefully!! The most important is MODEL and specifications of mower, I think. "Due to the range of prime movers the mulcher is designed for, the motor displacement is adjustable to various GPM and rotor RPM to give you optimum productivity for your particular application. The displacement must be adjusted and then “locked in”. For optimum productivity and proper operation the displacement on the mulcher motor needs to be adjusted for the “ACTUAL” GPM of your prime mover and the desired RPM of the mulcher rotor. NOTICE: Insufficient RPM (below 1800) will greatly reduce the productivity of your unit while overspeeding (above 2000) can cause serious damage to the motor".
SBS series pump may be made by Mitsubishi.
I had that suspicion, but couldn’t find confirmation.
Gary already set required GPM and pressure for the mower. We are having problems with the machine side, not the mower side. Adjusting mowers motor displacement is a question of mowers performance and not the question of machines performance. I happen to have worked on Fecon/Rayco mulchers, and some owners on 130 machines switching from fixed displacement motors on the head to variable displacement pressure compensated motors, which automatically change displacement of the motor from low displacement/high speed to high displacement/lower speed proportionally as the pressure rises. That means: when the load is small ( small branches, brush etc.) the head have high speed but low torque, when you hit the big branches or a trunk - the motor adjusts automatically to higher torque, but consequently lower speed mode.
There can be no confirmation. We Only know that Caterpillar and Mitsubishi have been in a joint venture for a long time. In addition, Mitsubishi also has a hydraulic pump, motor factory and hydraulic pump, motor of Mitsubishi which is very famous in the marine industry. By the way, Mitsubishi's hydraulic research division is so powerful, they are currently a leader in a very new field called digital hydraulics.
Gary said his Father in Law passed away today.
Like TVA said, my father-in-law passed away on Friday right about the time I was working on this machine so I didn't get any updated information for you all. This past few days have been busy with funeral things ect. and now the excavator is out working again so I'm not sure when I will be back on it.
I was finally able to make it back to the machine and had another hydraulics guy with me. We did pressure and flow tests with and without the mower running. Some of our results may have been covered in this conversation before, I don't remember but at this point we are thinking that the mower now is running just on standby flow. I think both John C and TVA touched on this before but next time I'm at the machine I am planning to T into the NFC lines going to the pump regulators , with a line also going to tank through a flow control valve. Once I start the machine and have the mower running I will open the flow control valves thereby removing the NFC pressure from the regulator, dumping it to tank and that should stroke the pump. If that works we can look into different options on how to control the NFC pressure, probably will use something like a solenoid actuated pressure reducing valve for each pump. But we need to confirm that this is the problem first.
Did you have LS lines hooked to NFC lines while testing?
No, we had done that prior running through a shuttle valve and it actually made it worse. Hard to believe it could be worse but it was.
Then you are running little bit better then on stand by. You are running on stand by when you have pressure on NFC lines. I think you need to make one of the pressure switches ( probably for auxiliary function) to let the ECM know that you running the legitimate load, and not just a really high stand by pressure.
The ECM has nothing to do with the NC lines. It is only changing modes on the torque draw on the engine.
Not sure about this machine, but ECM does reduce pumps flow through PRV in instances when stand by is more then 1000 psi and there’s no feedback from functions pressure sensors/switches. Those pressure switches not only for idle down control. At least it is true for CAT 312C/315C.
Standby pressure is a function on a closed center hydraulic system. This system is open center parallel passage. It is also negative control in that it only switches the pump on and off in the earlier versions and may have limited ability to regulate on this model. This machine as I recall has an H, S and L setting that is controlled by the mode switch in the control panel. That control went through the computer but didn't change by loads on the engine. A PRV is a component on a Caterpillar hydraulic pump. Link-Belt always called theirs a Main Pump Proportional Solenoid. It wasn't proportional at all. It had three milliamp readings that you took, one for H mode, one for S mode and one for L mode. The pump went to full output whenever a function was operated, limited only by the main pump proportional solenoid.
So what you saying is that solenoid by the pumps have nothing to do with torque limiting and protecting engine from overloading by hydraulics? Because as I understand it is it’s main function, and it must be proportionate to do that.
OK, I see what you mean: ECM does not infinitely regulates the current on PRV, it steps down to current value pre set for L mode when it reads that RPMs lower then they are supposed to be at current position of the throttle. Got it!
Garry. I will suggest, before buying and installing additional valves, test and see if it is even possible to run mower and have satisfactory machine movement. For that just take the NFC lines off of the pumps regulators, plug/cap the hoses and leave the regulators ports unplugged. You can even do the same with line to PRV. This way you will have pumps at full flow. Start and run both mower and machine right away and simultaneously. It is possible to bog the engine down and heat up the hydraulics, but this way you will know weather you ( or machine owner) will like the performance.
I wonder why not use the optional port while the main control valve is available?
As I recall on these machines the option port is only single pump flow. I think Gary has the right idea to get the pumps to stroke up.
Dual flow option is available. Dual flow solenoid (11) activates high flow logic element (41) which brings the flow from Right Pump to the parallel circuit of the Left Pumps side right before the Hammer spool. Also the same solenoid brings the pilot pressure to a neutral cut spool of the Right Pump section of the Main Control Valve, cutting NFC and effectively throwing the Right Pump in to full displacement. But the problem with this set up is that you have to use restriction only type of flow control, and not restriction/bypass type to still have flow for the rest of machine to use. And then question still remains what kind of pressures you will be able to build up on the Right Pump side of the MCV, will the operation of the functions on that side be stable or unstable and intermittent, will the Right Side start to heat up and so on, so on...
According to the drawing, the only way you can get two pump flow to a circuit is to have two spools feeding. Notice boom 1 and boom 2 spools and arm 1 and arm 2 spools. It doesn't matter if both pumps are feeding the valves in combined flow. That just lets more functions work at the same time. It's meant to combine flows when you are moving both tracks and operate another function at the same time. If you aren't traveling, it don't go into combined flow.
Red line from port PO ( connected to a parallel passage of the Right Pump), goes to port A of a Multipurpose Three Way valve 41*, when logic element opens up that flow goes through port B of the valve 41* to port OPT of the MCV, inside the MCV port OPT connects to parallel gallery feed of Hammer/Option spool. The position of the check valves on this circuit show the direction of flow.
The simple answer is that you cannot ask for too much. When you need to use other operations, you have to disconnect right side pump (turn OFF "dual flow solenoid" No.11) , the lawn mower switches back to use left pump only. Note that we already have a toggle switch for this function (to turn ON "dual flow solenoid" No.11 for combine flow of 2 pumps).
The other way, we change No.41 Valve by Flow control valve. https://www.hydradynellc.com/produc...-8-inch-to-3-4-inch-ports-flow-control-valves
For more convenience, we can use 02 pressure switches No. 25 and No. 40 to turn ON or OFF "dual flow solenoid" No. 11 automatically. It's not too difficult to do that, right??
The best way is to use dedicated PTO pump for mower, like it is done on forestry machines and that set up works great. But that’s beside the point! Another thing: would be helpful to have more information about latest flow measurements that was done to understand more precisely what is going on. If everything works correctly with that priority valve, it means that about 16 gpm NOT going through Main Control Valves center gallery and NOT creating NFC pressure which supposed to be induced by orifices at the end of that gallery. Theoretically that set up should regulate it self!
If you want to control that flow you need to install that flow control in series with valve 41. That valve (41) is just glorified pilot operated, high flow capacity ball valve. All it does is switches passage ON and OFF. And yes, you can adjust that flow control to 16-17 gpm, but Dual Flow Control valve 11 also actuate Neutral Cut spool at the end of the center gallery of the Right Pump section of the MCV, which will throw Right Pump at full displacement - and with center gallery blocked and rest of the spools at neutral you push remaining flow against dead head. And those K3V regulators don’t have CO valves like Komatsu, it means that remaining flow would have to go through and over relief - and that will be the source of overheating and premature wear.
What John C was right to talk about is - we don’t really know the “pass through flow” capacity of that single Hammer/Option spool! Can that spool and all the passeges handle the full flow of both pumps? We can assume that there was very smart engineers who came up with this idea and they calculated and tested everything. But I am getting close to a “ripe” age and been in this field for awhile, and have seen things to blindly trust those “engenders”!!!
It's nice to think about what could have been done but the issue now is that the diverter valves are already plumbed into the system. What is there needs to work. I think Gary has the right idea with shunting the flow from the NC circuit back to the tank. The problem is if that works as an on/off item like the older Sumitomo machines did, or it has some variability to it. Will you get that pump to go full stroke at a cut point or will it ramp up?
I think if the Link-Belt's Genuine Technical Manual says that it is possible to install "DUAL FLOW SOLENOID" for the combined stream it means the Option spool's "ability to go through the flow" is sufficient.
Yes, it might come to that. Adjusting those pressure reducing valves to the pressure that just takes care of the flow requirements of the mower, and spools in MCV blocking center gallery will take care of the machine flow needs.
I’d like to think that also. Sumitomo is too reputable and respected brand for not to be so!
If they could put two pump flow through the valve block of a function, then why are they using two spools for two pump flow to the boom and the arm?
Because boom and arm use dual flow intermittently. they use dual flow one way but not the other. Haven’t gone through the operation of this machine, but a lot of cases arm or boom switches to single pump operation when certain pressure is achieved, even on the functions that use dual flow with liter load.
On Sumitomo the boom was always two pump both ways. The arm was two flow both ways with only one return when bringing the arm in. That is how they controlled the fall of the arm and prevented the hesitation when it got to the vertical spot in the travel. I don't know of any machines set up like this with the auxiliary valve that can put double flow out the port.
The one from top of my head would be JCB using sequence valve on arm to cut second pump flow, that’s for when you dig hard and don’t need high flow but need high pressure. I might have seen similar set up on some of the Kobelcos - don’t remember now. Combining two pumps in to single spool - that would be the first time I see something like this also. That’s why I am a little skeptical about this one.
This particular machine on Boom dual flow only on boom rase, boom lower is a single flow. Arm, like you said dual pump but single return. Only arm 2 has both directions open to return.
That’s why I always liked to take the arm circuits to run things like log processors and use the auxiliary to run the stick. I’ve also used one arm spool and the aux to run a mulcher.
Right, you don’t need any fast movements of the stick while having mulcher on the end of it. That is for digging and loading.
The thing with this machine - Gary said it is most of the time runs as excavator, and that will be little to much hose moving and swapping every time you switch from one set up to another. Also the controls of the arm in this one is little to “busy” and complicated, need to do good research before attempting to run attachments from arm circuit. There’s good amount of cushioning and prioritizing in the arm control going on!
Doesn’t matter anyway. The diverters are already in there. Other makes have made the changes easy now. Sumitomo might have as well.
You right about that one! Got to work with what already there. Just for the kicks - looked in a little closer in to idea running the arm circuit for the attachments, on the second look it is not that complicated. The attachments will slow down little bit when swing will be in use, but that might not even be noticeable. The pedal can have travel limiting bolt to adjust for only the flow attachments need. This way there should be nice even flow distribution between the pumps, and equally nice flow request to the pumps through NFC. The only problem that hammer section don’t have port relieves, so running arm on that circuit will leave arm cylinder unprotected from the spikes. I think with adding two more diverters ( one for pilot lines swapping and another for work hoses) and couple of inline pressure relieves - you can build nice set up with which you can hydraulically flip from excavator to mower/mulcher in a matter of 1-1 1/2 minutes.
The only thing I don’t see on this diagram is a hydraulic hardware with which you can adjust both flow and pressure for hammer through the computer inside the cab. I know for sure that newer Cases have that, and I think I read about that thing in the manual for this very machine! There’s also discrepancies in that diagram: Arm 1 pilot lines market wrong- Out and IN flipped, port dr1 on MCV not marked, and straight travel spool shows reversing in activated position, but supposed to be connecting/equalizing symbol, looking like letter H or “float center” symbol for DCV.
This one is just about the same as a Quantum. It isn’t real sophisticated. I don’t recall ever checking flow for a hammer or plate compactor on a Link-Belt.
I actually never worked with Link Belts. Would this one be the same as Case “C” series? And Quantum would be similar to CX?
Linkbelt CII = Case 9000 series. Linkbelt Quatum = Case 9000B series. Linkbelt LX = Case CX. Both built by Sumitomo.
As I recall The Quantum was the same as the B series and the LX line is the same as the C series.
Excavator beat me to it.
Case 9000 is a Drott excavator. 88 series was Poclain.
The Case / Sumitomo models had designations like 9020, 9030, 9040 and 9050 and were all made by Sumitomo. The Drott line was part of Tenneco Corporation which also owned Case and Poclain at the time and was discontinued in the 1980s when Case bought themselves out of Tenneco Corp. The 88 series excavators were a side note that didn't last and it was built in Europe. I don't know for sure if it was Poclain because the parts that were for a couple of machines that I had the misfortune of working on came out of Germany. Poclain did continue to make excavators for a little while for use in the US but I heard about really big electronic issues on the two or three I did appraisals on in the late nineties and early 2000s. Case did continue to make the Drott rubber tired excavators under their own name for a time. Last I heard, they sold that business off to Badger. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to correct me if my memory has that turned around some.
This is what I have in the manual. So 90 ( not 90B) was modeled after Drott, but had variable displacement pump. Who was physically building those machines - I don’t know. Is there possibility that Sumitomo modeled their machines after Drott?
You're looking at the 90 series Case which were built by Poclain, we are talking about the 9000 series.
No, this is manual for 9010, 9020, 9030, 9040, 9050, and 9060, but without B at the end. 9010 and 9020 had KYB pump. ( the one I worked on 9010 with KYB still sits in Federal Way, last time I’ve seen it was all overgrown with brush and small trees). 9040 had Kawasaki K3V. 9050 and 9060 had Rexroth A8VO pumps. Few months ago, here in Alabama, I worked on 1994 Case 9040B - and that one almost exactly the same as the Sumitomo SH200 I occasionally work on, at shipyard in Mississippi.
Sorry, yes you are correct. I read the picture wrong. The 9010 -9060 and newer are all made by Sumitomo.
Your book says the hydraulic system is "similar to the original Drott system." It actually isn't even close.
Who knows, maybe the earlier models was made by Sumitomo also.
The only DROTT thing I ever worked on was 4 in 1 bucket on Case dozer. So I can’t say anything about that, just what the manual says.
The one thing for sure - I hate working on MCVs in those Cases. You almost have to hower over it, to not be stepping on the pilot lines, wires and sensors. Especially 9010 - just almost no working room! Reminds me of under the hood of contemporary car!
Gary, does priority valve supplies mower with all the flow mower requires, or just a part of that requirement?
And to complicate the issue a bit more, the early JCB excavators were also Sumitomo built. The one's I've worked on were the same as the Linkbelt Quantum/Case 9000B.
Yes, it provides all it needs. The priority valve we installed is good for 60gpm I believe and we are using 30. Really hoping to get up there this next week. Was thinking Monday but just got a call for a Deere wheel loader that's going to have to take priority.
After you disconnected LS lines from NFC lines, what is going on now? Machine is still pretty much dead while mower is in operation?
Yes sir.
And you pretty sure that mower takes only approximately 16 GpM from each pump, and no more then that?
I’m having the same problem with a install on a cx160d case. Machine will be running a Mulcher that requires 35gpm. I have installed a rexroth priority valve and now having a hard time getting the pumps to stroke. My plan is to do it electronically by feeding boom up pressure sensor 4.5v (two pump flow) and feeding the neural sensor .7v to allow hydraulic controller to stroke pumps. Has anyone done this before?