I keep seeing these post about crane accidents. How much of that is the operator and how much is it someone else like a site supervisor? I've never run one but would love to have an old one just to have. Rick
A loaded question, no pun intended! IMO more often than not the operator has made some mistake in set up, or run it out of his chart on the smaller crane mishaps, but his crew can mislead him or put him in a bad spot too! On the much bigger lifts that go bad, it is more likely an engineering over sight or supervision error that put the wheels of destruction in motion. The big lifts get many more talking heads involved, and much more planning and scrutiny prior to lifting. Those operators there have much less personal involvement in many of the major decisions made about the whole heavy lift process, so they aren't the only ones that can be at fault for a miscalculation on some critical factors that cause the big disasters. Like wind loads, ground bearing pressures, range problems such as a part of a large load getting into the boom as it's approaching a critical height, tail swing problems in pick and carry lifts or load transfer when using more than one crane or a specialized spreader bar. Lift planners make these calls and aren't always right. Too bad they don't always ask they operator for his opinions before signing off on a big lift plan. Many off the lift planners have never been in the seat at all, so miss some of the most obvious things when it comes to a lift.
OK thanks that explains a lot. Rick
I hate to say this but most are human error. what gostr8r has said is true there is a lot of hands in a big lift. I have found through experience that on the small lifts some people like to lie to their computers or was put into a bad predicament an went with it instead of telling them NO!!!, There are some accidents that it was found there was fatigue in the Iron through poor maintenance an overloading in the past. All these are variables in accidents. Or are they accidents?
apcranetraining.com has safety training for 1926.1400 standard
Well I've learned a lot from you the people who have posted stuff on here. I never thought about wind affecting a lift, ground stability or anything like that. Thanks Rick
The big lifts have the engineering department going batty, they want to control more than anyone should let them. I'm just an oiler, I'm not in the seat but it's easy to see just how much crap can get tossed on the operator. I was a 4 month rookie belling a 300,000 pound pick, the crane just wasn't going to make the radius the engineering department thought we could make and we found this out during the lift. Management was on the other end of the radio asking if we could push it further, my operator said not a chance in hell, so they ended up going for plan "B" which involved getting an army of laborers to fashion a landing pad for the load. Ended up hanging on to it much longer than we wanted, which isn't preferred at all, but at the end of the day, we all went home without selling a load. What I've learned in the hoisting business (accumulated in just shy of a year after leaving the dirt scene) is that you can never be too careful. Management will always push you, but I've always been one to do things the right way. If they don't like what I'm doing, let them find someone else to hurry their way through a project. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I won't cut corners when it really matters and judgement will go a long way. Luckily, I haven't been put in a position to choose between my job and the safe way of doing things, however that decision would be very easily made on my end.
Stick to your guns CascadeScraper! I've lost more than one job working on the contractors payrolls, and not going over and beyond the reasonable boundaries of the machines safe working limits. They hire us to do their lifts and tell us to not do anything unsafe, until it comes to interfering with their own needs and bonuses, then all bets are off. Then they want you to push it further than what the rig is capable of. That's why I like working on the owners payroll cuz he has an interest in getting his rig back intact, after each job.
winter weather is also a forgotten factor in lifts... Ice and Snow accumulation on the boom decreases the lifting capacity... Ice is the worst..
Most crane accidents are caused by operator error. Over 70% of all crane accidents are operator error. Out of this 70% the biggest reason for these crane accidents is rigging issues. 34% to be exact. Typically it was rigged improperly or poor rigging equipment was used. It is the operators responsibility to ensure the riggers are using rigging that is compliant and safe to use. I know on some crane picks the operator can not even see the load. These statistics are coming from every crane accident as a whole. Therefore most operations the operator can see what they are lifting.
I tried to set the base for a septic pump station for a contractor one day using my old Hiab knuckle. This thing was a 8' diameter base that was 4' tall and had a 12X12' pad poured around it to decrease the ground pressure on it. When I got to the site the hole was about 15' square on the bottom in soaking wet sand and 14' deep. The top of the hole was probably closer to 50' in diameter. When I tried to set the base I got right off the back of the truck and started to reach and my truck said "nope not doin' it". My redlight came on on the traffic light and the boom stopped. I called the office and told them what was going on. The engineers in the office figured this thing for 20k, the guys who poured it told me 23-24k, when I couldn't set it and where it stopped my boom I figured it for 27k. The salesman in the office told the contractor over the phone that I was just scared and to tell me to use the excavator to hold down the front of the truck while I set the base. I told the contractor I was overweight and the truck physically could not set this base. Contractor believed the salesman over me and he couldn't even see the salesman. The office had another driver call me so they could get his opinion on my truck because I had told the salesman that if he didn't like the way I was running my truck to feel free to hop in his car and drive on up to the job and take over. The other driver asked me what my chart said because the office kept telling him the weight was 20k. Even then my capacity was 20k at 20', so with the size of the hole because of the depth/digging conditions there was no way I could reach. That damn salesman even after the other driver also told him it was not possible insisted it could be done because I was just reaching over the back. I ended up reaching forward over the body and tried to reach out and the boom shut down in that direction too! That made the contractor a believer. I ended up setting the base on the ground and they brought in a 35 tone grove to set it. As much as a overconfident operator can be a problem, having the office screaming in your ear from 20 miles away can be just as bad. They wanted me to set that base because NO ONE wanted to have to pay for a real crane to come to the jobsite.
Thats a big factor. Managment is ALLWAYs wanting more. You need to know when to walk away.
Bridge Crane Jen Good points, CraneBlogger. According to the stats, most crane accidents are caused by an operator error. But, the errors might be from being overworked, overtired and being pressured to do unsafe things by a supervisor.
Check out this article I found that breaks down the top causes of crane accidents and fatalities.
typically it's 85-99% all operator error. you may have a few with mechanical errors, but mostly inexperienced or operators who were never trained properly. As far as site supervisor or superintendent...rarely......but the most famous is BIG BLUE 1999 that killed 3 Iron workers. The Super insisted on proceeding on with the job...with unfavorable winds.
Near perfect answer gostr8r
It is very simple, I am in the seat, I am responsable for the pick. If I say no, it is no. Don't like it, call the Hall and get someone else.
Have you been in a situation where you were asked to do something that was not safe? What did you do?
Yes, several times with carpenters and lathers. They want you to boom out "a little bit more" and you can fell the rig getting light in the ass. I stop and tell them I need to walk-in, which sometimes gets the response " grow some balls", my answer is simply "no, I move in or I set it here, your choice".
'Refuse' is a general answer to the very vague question. It happens often really. Each signal could potentially be the unsafe request. A cornfused left and right for example. Anyhow it comes down to wether or not the request is within a reasonable option, or in the realm of inevitable danger. The first is a case by case determination/evaluation of the whole picture, since so many factors can make even a simple lift or movement go fugly fast! The latter of the 2 is a ‘NO can do!’ which I have done more times that I can remember. By the way your question is worded tho, unsafe is a broad brush to paint with without more facts. We can do things that could be considered unsafe, but in a way that would make them reasonably easy and very safe, with enough forethought and expertise! A good operator can teach the crew how to do something to accomplish the same feat, but in a safe way. That of course depends on his experience and their open mindedness to his input.
Gostr8tr, if you are a new crane operator, how will you know the difference between something that is a reasonable request and when something falls within the realm of inevitable danger? Does it involve a certain amount of trust between the person who is signaling you, would it be obvious when something falls into the realm of inevitable danger?
BridgeCraneJen, that’s a great question. An operator that stays in chart, does his hook work at a safe and controlled pace and is ‘alert' can do most things that are asked of him. Newbies often run beyond their abilities trying to impress others and don’t know the limits of the crane, before making critical decisions. They are at a disadvantage being new for sure, but a safety conscious attitude/awareness will keep the right side up in almost all cases. So it really comes down to your gut feelings first, and then what experience you have acquired second. If you feel uneasy about a situation then that in itself is a red flag to look at very closely. Unfortunately a new operator is going to be limited in his frame of reference, as far as consequences and possible scenarios that could evolve from said situation tho. He would be doing good to have some veteran operators on speed dial and pick their minds often, as well as listening and learning from others mistakes. There are also crane accident web sites that are very informative and would be a good start to getting better educated in how things go fugly under the hook. Just because we are off the clock doesn’t mean we can’t continue learning.
Keep in mind that a customer and/or rigging crew will ask a lot of an operator, if it means not having to use their backs to pick something up or renting a bigger and more expensive crane to do it the right way. Their intent is to make it easier on them, not to do the right thing with the crane in all cases. Few crews have the mentality that cranes are to be used properly at all times. Many go by the ‘We’ve done it a hundred times like that’ and so they want the newbie to cater to their demands. Sad isn’t it? The ones with that attitude are only running the odds of failure up every time they get away with something unsafe. One in a thousand chance of failure is now one in 999 and so one. Sooner or later, maybe sooner tho, it bites hard and deadly.
Just say no! If they give me a hard time I show them the load chart and measure the radius together and that stops 90% of the problems.Chris
Hi guys I'm from the the UK, born in Canada, looking to return to sit the Red Seal. It's no different here where if the customer orders the crane in and no rep from the company has been out to check the job. They end up being a couple of metres short asking you to turn the key. On another thread, people were talking about not trusting the LMI/SLI and doing manual calulations. I don't really understand this practice, but then our cranes are rated at 75% max load and not 85% i.e we don;'t have to calculate the weight of the hoist rope to work out how much we can lift. I was factory inducted on a brand new Liebherr 1055.2, and not once did the personel at Liebherr say that the LMI couldn't be trusted and to go off the load charts and that it was just an indication. The load charts on the computer match whats on the paper. Dead simple. My experience is predominatly on Liebherrs AT up to 80t (LTM 1080) UK which is rated lower than in Canada. You just simply couldn't and wouldn't set up the computer wrong, and certainly not deliberatly. If I wasn't happy about how much further I had to get a load and knew they would be a metre or 2 short and start asking for 'favours' I would just hit the duty change key which set off the alarm early and rather than be 2m short, be 4m- that way it was well out of the question. The company I worked for wouldn't have sent a crane out that was on the limit as close as that anyway- except when they wanted their 500t'ers rigged on luffing fly lol! Worries me what I'm getting myself into! Over here, the crane operator has final say. Steel erectors may call you names- tough. Get someone else in, it's never worth it. It's the cranes up to 50t that seem to get into grief with overlifting though where they're out for small one off jobs. On another note, I;ve got this DOST coming up at somepoint. Does anyone know how the day goes? Over here, they wouldn't let you operate a crane without an induction from an experience driver first who signs you off as competent. I'm trying to understand how it's going to work on the day i.e do they let you know in advance what crane you will be on so you can read through the manual or something. Cheers
the best guys i ever worked with believe it or not was iron workers, they new what i was capable of ( or had a much better understanding of limitations ) than did 90% of the rest of the people you come in contact with out in a crane. i was really young and guys used to tell me the same thing "i've done it this way before" yah but you don't do it every day--- i do. people think that because they have worked around cranes 3 times a year for the last ten years it makes them an expert and it quite frankly does not. i think as a crane operator you develope a sort of sixth sense where as you roll on to a new site you can tell how big of a fiasco the site itself and the people you are working for, will end up being in about 30 seconds. my approach was always to try and be as diplomatic as i could, keep educating them until it becomes their idea to perform the the tasks properly, that also includes when calling the rental company ordering the proper size rig. i was a crane operator for 8 years before i started in motorsports and thankfully i never had an accident but i was close more than once and sometimes it was my fault and sometimes not. i think for new operators the key thing is get to know your machine inside and out understand the chart and stick to your guns because at the end of the day "THEY" will blame the operator every time. but that is why i loved hangin iron, like i said that was where i found the least problems with guys understanding why i was really there.
For the most part, it is approximately 92 to 95% accidents are due to operator error. as far as supervisor....it may be 5%?? But any operator can refuse the job at any time, so it would be 100% operator. There are a few that are due to mechanical error, but that falls again back to preventative maintenance and proper inspections.
I think it all goes back on the operator. People can pressure operators but you have to be able to say no. If you can't say no your not gonna last long. Was setting a section of roof trusses getting close to my limit when the foremen walked over and told me that the outriggers can come six inches of the ground before the crane will turn over. I told him that I'm not testing that theory. I'll take his word for it. If you pay attention the machine will tell you when it's had enough. When I get to a job I always make sure there haven't been any trenches dug recently where I'm setting up. And you can always tell how a job is gonna go within the first minute of being there.
I have often wondered, is there a temperature for which operating a crane at all is dangerous? And if temperatures are say 10 degrees below zero is the cable compromised, or perhaps the boom? I have run small cranes a bit but am no crane operator. I know just enough to know that what I don't know could kill somebody, hence I stick with dirt moving.
Working in Canada I've never had an issue with operators complaining about the cable or boom operation in the cold. Depending on the grease used sometimes it gums up and will cause the boom to chatter but thats in noway caused by the boom being compromised. The cable will heat up pretty quickly when its run off and on a few times so that shouldn't be an issue. Running the boom in and out a couple times wouldn't hurt as well. In the summer we sometimes get calls from operators, mostly on 90T's and up saying the boom is drifting off to the side and the hook is about 10-15ft to the right of where it should be and think a pad might of fallen out or the shimming is off. This is usually on jobs where they're set up with the boom out for a period of time with sun beating on the same side of the boom and the easy fix is to just swing around and let the other side get some rays .
Thanks Sirius, I had'nt thought about the heat expanding the metal. I guess that lattice booms may be particular affected by this. You have satisfied my curiosity. Thanks again.
-40 degrees Celsius is the critical temp for the all of the metal on the crane, you shouldn't operate when it's any colder out. I certainly prefer to be somewhere inside where it's warm on days like that.
Yeah, at 40 below I prefer to only go outside to get another log for the fire. When I have had to work with equipment in those temps it seems as if we spent as much time getting things going as we did working. I'm sure the Northern Canada and Alaska guys have that part of the problem figured out, but I know it goes way beyond just using #1 fuel. I have had to feed cows in weather that was around 20 below (F) but we used teams of horses so the mechanical difficulties were avoided.
I was unloading rebar in the lay down area. It was a mix of #7 and #8 bar. Not too big of deal. Until a load of #8 came in marked as #7. I didn't get down to look at the load. As the bundles basically weighed the same, #8 had less bars in the bundle. They rig the normal 2 bundles, I pick the 2 thinking this seems quite heavy. So I set it on the ground close to the crane. Not where they wanted it. Old crane, no computers anywhere. Well after I get it on the ground, I look at the load. It was labeled as #7 with correct number of bars for a #7 bundle. They were #8 bar which makes the load almost 2000 pounds heavier. Needless to say "I" started checking the tags and weights on the trailers as they came on the job. Making sure #7 were #7 and #8 were #8 The thing is a lot of stuff may have a weight marked on it, but there is always a chance of the mis-marked item.
so on the same job the want me to set a rebar cage. I walk over count the bars, do a little math... a little over 7200 lbs. Can't do it I told them, About all I can do is unload it off the trailer, I had already loaded on the trailer earlier. I can set the bottom mat, but not the top. TOO far TOO heavy. I told them to move the 45 ton over here to set it, My math was close as it weighed almost 8000 lbs. The 45t has all the bells and whistles.
rarely do i completely trust anyone elses weight calcs
We had a painter in a local shipyard paint the wrong weight on a spreader bar on purpose. He claimed it was safer because he painted a heavier weight on it. When the rigging crew did the test pick on it, the numbers didn't did add up. they hang a dyno on the hook to double check the load. after a little digging he said what he had done. He got a good talkin too about making decisions like that on his own. People have lied too me about weight trying to get me to pick something that will be over there head if i tip over. I have had another operator try to tip me over by knowingly pushing me out of chat in a two crane pick........with him! People are stupid! That is all