I am currently in the market for a used machine. I have been debating the CTL or compact tractor road for months now and I thought I had finally made my decision on a used CTL until I started reading all the horror stories on drive motor failures and hydraulic issues. I only have a budget for a used machine most likely in 2000-3000hr I will be using it mainly on my personal property for some land clearing and general construction use. (I also have a mini ex) The land I have tends to be on the wet side so I was thinking the CTL would be a bit of a better fit. So I need a little real world advise on weather a CTL in that HR range wont more than likely end up being a boat anchor. I can work on machines if needed but not to the extent of replacing drive motors etc... Should I reconsider the compact tractor?
There is probably little doubt that the CTL would be the most productive. As a personal use machine a higher houred CTL can be a dangerous purchase, while the stories are not all as bad as the John Deere that someone posted here, they do happen. As a contractor it is easier to fix these things, not that it is desirable, but at least the machine has the ability to earn money back. As a personal machine that is just an expense with no way to get it back except to run the heck out of it and hope the problems don't continue. Some options maybe to 1. get a wheeled machine and put tracks on it. 2. spend more money and get a newer tracked machine that perhaps still has warranty or is at least very low hours and then TAKE CARE OF IT. 3. Buy a compact tractor and rent a CTL as needed. 4. Lastly, roll the dice and go higher houred for less money. Just remember, the drives don't last forever, regardless of color, they will fail. When the failure will occur who knows, but you need to be financially prepared for that day.
Ok so I know a lot depends on the maintenance but in general if the unit was maintained fairly regularly is there a general rule as to what hr range I would be best to look for or I should stay away from?
I don't think anyone can answer that with any degree of certainty. Me, personally I would not go over three thousand hours, I cant support that number with statistics just what general thought is. Also generally speaking the drives have gotten better recently. So if you are going to go the high houred route, I would go with newer model year. I would avoid mid2000 machines of any color at high hours. Find something that has had a lot of use, but is newer. Many of the drives are made by the same OEM usually Rexroth but there are others as well. If you find a machine your interested in, research who makes the drives, ask some questions on here on that specific model. That might give you some more insight, but again, find out what a drive replacement costs for said CTL and set that money aside.
I really appreciate the help KSS. The units I was debating between were. 2009 Takeuchi TL-230 with 2600hrs and a 2012 Takeuchi TL-230-2 with 3100hrs both look to be well taken care of and tracks are at about 80%. Price is the same just a bit older less hrs or newer with more hrs. Is there a way to tell when I’m doing an inspection as to the health of the drive motors?
Taki has a well earned reputation for durability. I have never owned a Taki CTL, I ordered a new Taki TL12V2 when they first came out, I wanted it in dedicated H pattern. They were close but at the end of the day the pattern changer was as close as they could come. I didn't take the machine when it arrived in ISO. I have owned numerous Taki 6 ton mini excavators and I like them. I cant speak to either of these CTL machines personally, but I am sure others on here can. As for the drives, there is likely a comprehensive way to check the hyd health of them, but I don't know it. I can say I would check the drive oil and then put ten hours on it and check it again. If a dealer has these on their lot, I would guess the oil is fresh, I would confirm that and then put at least 10 hours on it (even if you have to pay for some of those in rental) then recheck the oil and see if you get any metal. Do you mind sharing what they are asking for them?
I never keep them past 3 sets of tracks..i usually put the 3rd set on and sell it...2000-2200 hr mark...mini ex i keep to about 3500 hrs...ctl gets expensive FAST. My nh machines use to come with 3 year 3000 hr warranty..now it is 2000hr 2 year. I would say that the warranty saves me about 6000.00 in repairs...mostly electrical problems...in all my equipment i have only had to change one drive..i change my drive oil and motor oil at same time....150 hrs
On a rexroth motor...the quick test is on case drain check....more oil coming from case drain means more by pass in pistons and wear plate... but you need a graduated cylinder...flow meter....and pressure guages...so not for the average guy.
Ok so it really sounds like these machines are not very reliable by the time they hit 2500-3000 hrs. It’s pretty amazing based on their cost when new. Makes me wonder why anyone would buy a used one. KSSS the units I was looking at were priced at $20000 and they we firm on that.
I think you make a great point and why I don't buy them used and get out of them while they still have resale value. If the dealer is asking 20K they likely got them for 15K-17.5K. However a drive motor repair if hired out to fix could easily hit 7500-10K, up to half the purchase price. Then you hope that other issues don't arise from contamination when the drive goes. It is a rabbit hole. Like mentioned in the Deere thread, you have to fix it to get out of it or keep fixing it to keep it. None of the options are very attractive.
Here is my take. I would look for a machine with around 1500 hrs or less. The older tl150s are good to look for. Check out underneath the cab look at the hoses and the belly pan. See if the hoses look ok, some should have been replaced at this point. Manly look at them where the touch each other or rub metal. Make sure and dig with the machine. Tell them you want to run it for one hour or more. Dig with it to the max. Raise full loads of all the way up to the top over and over. Push down with the bucket and pick the front of the machine up and try to dig. Dig hard. It will tell you a lot.. Watch how hot it gets and notice if the controls seem smooth and even. Does it track straight or off to one side or the other. Basic checks to see if you can find any issues if you do just post your questions. A good low hour tl150 can go for 30k or even more.. I looked for over a year and it was the best machine I have owned and it came to me with a broken track and needed some tlc. A true work horse... Would not trade it for any thing out there.
Good God you guys are scaring the crap out of me and making me think I should sell my 2007 CT322 that i just bought a year ago with 2700hrs!
Its not as convenient as having one sitting around, but for all intents and purposes depending on the amount of work you have to do, plan your work and rent one as needed. Its easy to do one of 2 things 1) Over estimate how much use you really have for a machine and spend 20-30k to have something around you use less than 100 hours a year 2) Spend 20-30k on a skid steer and try to work it like a D8, then stick additional money into repairs until your asking yourself why you didn't buy new. Locally I think the average rate is around $300/Day for a mid range CTL, $300 doesn't go very far in the grand scheme of owning one and for the associated maintenance head aches it might be money well spent. Not as convenient, but at least the costs are known.
I've got the same problem the OP has, I use mine for personal, it doesn't make me a dime. Renting is great, but I use mine alot for snow removal at my place in a gravel lot and lane so renting doesn't really work well for that situation. I have plowed it in previous years with a utv, but using a plow in gravel just makes a royal mess and I was finding myself needing a skidsteer every spring to clean up the mess made. I had some other dirt work to do around our place, so we decided to just buy one for that purpose, and use it for snow removal in the winter. I have been really considering buy a dump trailer, and picking up some small evening / weekend side work to help make the payments on the skidsteer. But with 2700hrs on my machine, and reading all the horror stories on the drives, I am scared now to put anymore hours on my machine than neccessary. I have had the gear covers off the drives, and the bearings and gears appear to be in good shape from what you can see, but how can you get an idea of the condition of the fluid drive side?
So after some more research I have decided not to gamble with the CTL and have been scouting out compact tractor/loaders. I know the CTL would be a bit more productive but in the end I can’t afford something newer and even the nicer used units scare me as I can’t handle repairs on my own and definitely can’t afford an unexpected $7-$10000 repair bill. So I thank you all for your input as I tend to make hasty decisions when it comes to my (toys) and I usually costs me dearly in the end. I will keep you guys updated whith what I get.
Did you ever think of buying something big and cheap....use it....resell it ...and buy an awesome almost new maintenance machine
When purchasing a CTL I always ask about maintenance and see if the owner mentions final drive oil changes. More often than not, most owners fail to change frequently, if at all. Also take along an infrared thermometer and work the machine hard for twenty min and check the drives for equal temps. I always flush the drives with diesel fluid after drawing the old oil out. Gets them extra clean since the lighter oil with lift out more of the contaminates.
Draining. Not drawing. Dumb phone.
Man i was picturing you sucking on a mcdonalds straw and wondering if you were still tempted to do the second one lol....damn auto spell has gotten me a few times too....sometimes it is funny though
So are we all talking about the gear set crapping out on the drives, or the fluid drive side of them?? I assume they are a 2 component unit with the planetary gear set on the outside being turned by a hydraulic fluid motor on the inside of the drive unit?
What, you dont like the taste of 80-90???
***This is going to come from a place of conjecture and is not to be confused with an expert opinion*** I'm guessing most failures occur on the gear side as that would be the side that's more susceptible to a lack of maintenance and contamination. That being said if you were running oil samples on that drive motor the fluid would be coming from the gear side, not the hydraulic. If it were me and I were concerned I'd be keeping a close eye on the fluid levels and after I put some hours on it I'd get it sampled. You can get the kits from cat and they're cheap. Also this might sound a little hokey but if you can't see a leak, sometimes the first symptom is a slight oil smell around the drive motor after the machines been worked awhile, I've seen a machine do that for quite awhile before it got bad enough that you started to see dampness. The unfortunate thing is once you become aware of this fatal flaw in these machines its like dealing with a cheating girlfriend, your not going to fully trust that machine ever again, and you'll spend your time waiting for things to grenade. I'm no longer involved in a day to day full time excavating business but in the early 2000's when these things came out we went through what your going through on a machine we rented and looked at purchasing, we opted to not purchase and stayed away from owning a CTL by keeping a wheeled machine and tracks and renting a CTL as needed. 20 years later my brother just bought a Cat CTL with 1000 hours and is keeping his tire machine with the intention of only using the Cat as needed.
I would never go back to a wheel machine for dirt work...ctl do 4 times more work then wheel and only cost 2 times more in the end....the extra performance and 2 weeks sooner in the field is well worth it..short season up here makes perfect sense to have ctl
So a question to all this, if it is the gear side that grenades, how does it end up contaminating the entire hydraulic system of the machine wit metal as I have read about? The gear side of the unit is separated from the hydraulic power side correct? Is there a seal separating the 2 sides of the unit that the metal from when a unit grenades just passes through and ends up in the hydraulic system?? Just trying to educate myself as I am not super familiar with these drives other than pulling the gear covers out for inspection and oil change on mine after I got it.
They do move a lot of terra firma in a hurry!!
The only drive i had fail....was on the hydraulic side....but i have seen many excavators fail on the gear side
That would make more sense to me on how the whole hydraulic system would get contaminated with metal if the hydraulic motor itself grenades. There's really not any preventive maintenance you can do for that outside of changing hydraulic filter and keeping the reservoir full correct?
I don't think anyone will argue which will do more work, I think the main question is which 2500 hours you want to own one, the 1st 2500, or the last 2500.
If that's whats happening then that makes sense, the specific machine we were using was a bobcat and both finals failed after 1000 hours on the planetary side, ended up replacing the front idlers and a few rollers around the same time, Never had to mess with the hydraulic system. That was one of the 1st ctl's and not to be confused with the current stuff. Aside from the filter and level you could sample the fluid and if there's any contamination or if its degraded it should show up and let you know if you need to service the fluid itself.
There is no question....i dont own them that long....we take a huge hit on trade in...which should cover the parts that need to be changed...unfortunately people buy a 20 k machine and want it to work like a 60 k machine....they need to put atleast 10 k into it to make it.most likely good for another 1000-1500 hrs...that is a lot less cost per hour than our new machines...but we cant afford the down time...so we pay....and get paid to do so....i buy a new truck every 2 years...no hassles...my kid buys a 10 year old truck...has the time to fix....and can borrow mine when it breaks down ...so he saves a lot of money....same thing with ctls...you gotta pay to play.
Heat kills the hydraulics...running hot kills them the most...when you run a mulcher, mower, and cooler slightly plugs or very hot outside....have to be careful...also mech told me running tracks to tight causes heating and bearing issues
I for sure want to be the first 2500. The other factor is if your a homeowner or contractor. Repairing a CTL that does go down out of pocket would suck and you would have to be pretty flush to be ok with spending that kind of money on a toy for around the yard. No question a CTL moves more dirt, but if your not getting paid for it, does it really matter if takes longer to grade your own North 40? If your a contractor buying a well used CTL may make sense, at least it is making you money. If your a GC and you need something on a jobsite to handle backfill, grading and concrete prep, I can see where the older, higher houred CTL can work. If your an excavation contractor and use a CTL as crucial part of your business, new or lower houred machine makes more sense at least to me.
So what temp range on the hydraulic fluid would be nearing the danger zone?
I had the hard decision between wheeled and CTL last year, went with CTL and so happy I did. It's not even close how much faster it moves dirt, and how many jobs I wouldn't be able to do with a wheeled machine. I got a 13 Deere 319 and other then a recent issue with aux hydraulics it's been perfect for the 200 hours i've put on it, at 2200 now. I did consider jumping from $30k to $40k but it was just too much money for how much I use it. It might see 400-500 hours a year so I could never justify new, but at the same time wanted someone that wasn't worn out. I changed out every single fluid when I got it, and changing the oil in the drives every 200 hours, very cheap insurance. The drives are pricey and it would suck to need one or worse yet two in a short time but at least the bright side is that is the biggest undercarriage expense and you'd be set for a long time after. Renting is a pain. If you only need a CTL for a very small portion and wheels would suffice it may be a decent idea. But for virtually everything I do tracks are superior even when it's dry they just push dirt so much faster, more stable for piles, etc. The only thing I regret is buying a Deere for the controls, they are not good. Every time I jump back in a Case I realize just how bad they are. If i'm running it a lot I get use to it, but I still don't like them.
Y'all make me worry. I bought my MTL with high hours, run a mulcher, I am in the FL heat... I guess my saving grace will be I will only put 150-200 hrs per year on it.
They’re not all bad. I bought a well used 287 cat 7 years ago with 2650 hrs on it for $18500. I have done a lot of dirt work and snow removal around my yard with it and can’t imagine what I’d do without it. I have replaced a few hoses and track rollers in the 1500 hours I’ve put on it. It will push and carry dirt or snow in places nothing else will. I like it so much I have tried to find another one the same but now they are going for $25000 in auctions. I think that’s because they have very little electronics and don’t use planetary drives.
What is your budget and time frame? I looked for a year and ended up finding a single owner machine with under 2000 hours for around 15k. Auction machines over 2000 hours were getting bid up to 20 grand more, and they scare the hell out of me, no idea what the history of the machine is.
I would imagine the gear side would last longer than the drive side in most cases provided it has oil in it the whole time. Look at the rear ends in a lot of trucks on the road, people never check or change that oil and it's a rare failure point before something else in the drivetrain usually.