Hi everyone, I wanted to start the conversation on what type of cutting edge do you use on your machine. Steel? Carbide? Bits? Quick Change? Do you change blades for different seasons? Different conditions? What blade uses more fuel? What blade cuts best? What blade lasts longer? I want this thread to encompass a lot of different things associated with blade choice. I do own my own wear parts company and we distribute all of these different type of blades. However I do find that there is one style that we distribute that in a way rolls all styles into one complete system. That system is Borox Quick Change BX500. The BX500 system is a high quality hardened steel to extend wear life over standard steel "butter blades". The system is a universal fit to all types of graders, the system allows for blades to be attached to moldboard with a wedge for easy change, swap. The system has a variety of blade styles so that you can scarifier, cut, maintain, push snow, cut ice, etc by simply knocking a wedge off and putting on a different blade. No air tools required, limited down time, no dead heading back to shop to change blade. The high quality steel allows for a thinner blade, meaning a sharper blade that cuts easier. Easier cutting means lower RPM's which means less fuel and more money in your pocket. All while providing a high quality cut, mix, and packing ability to your road that eliminates washboards, potholes, and separation of material. This system is not a gimmick it has been in Sweden for over 30 years. There is no need to break your back or your budget with cutting edges. The Borox BX500 system can be a solution for you, take a quick look at our video of the system in action. Contact me to get more info or check out our website. Thank you for your time.
I think you are going to have to do better than show a grader working in loose material for a sales pitch. Most people also roll the blade all the way out and over to change cutting edges. What is the price differential between that and standard cutting edges and carbide. Where I'm at the centers get crowned from working the shoulders and the outsides have to be cut with a torch to match in order to maximize cost. In the snow country the counties use carbide because they can't afford to be changing edges every three days. Do you have some sort of guarantee of cost compared to the others? Do the wedges get stuck when they pack up with material? Can they fall out over time when they wear thin? Many on here have seen the advent of Helilock teeth where the expensive horse shoe retainers had to be cut with a torch in order to be able to remove the tooth. The teeth actually lasted longer than any other but the cost to keep buying new retainers made swapping teeth around to maximize wear raise the cost of operation to no better than any other tooth.
John, Thanks for the reply and you have some very valid points. The video unfortunately is just the best I have, I understand the conditions are not as true but its made more so to show how the actual quick change system works. Those who roll their blades out and over are the best suited for changing this style of blade because it basically creates a "table" and you can easily hit the wedges out rotate your blades and set blades down flat and re enter wedges. The cost of these blades are in between a standard edge and a carbide edge. Standard edges I would say average somewhere between $14-$18/ft. Our blade system options range from $20-$55/ft depending on what style of blade you get. A double carbide grader blade the good ones (1" x 7" x 3',4') are running low end $98/ft high end up to $200/ft in some places around the midwest. So the quick change blade is much closer to the cost of a standard steel but delivering a better cut, a more efficient use, and more wear life as it is higher grade steel. Compared to carbide it can't match it in wear life (unless you break out your carbide inserts) but it will out cut it, use less fuel, and provide a better quality road in any season because you actually get a mix of material. Carbide roads are easy to spot because there is a line of large rocks, with washboards in the middle of driving lane and no fines left on the road. The wedges and pins last on average 10-14 months. With these blades instead of torching away your dollars you rotate the blade to evenly wear and keep a straight edge, torching is also a lot of time and some risk. The wedges do not get stuck with material, and as far as cost goes. I would put this system up against any other method out there if you are running a true cost comparison (downtime, fuel usage, wear, amount of material used). I will definitely work on getting some better video of what these things do to hard, rugged, washboarded, potholed roads.
Friend of mine showed me a video about these cutters couple days ago. I have my doubts. First, if maintaining gravel roads the cutters will not wear evenly. Only type that will maintain a straight edge is something like a Sandvik, toothed cutter. Even then they require teeth replacement. This uneven wear is because traffic tends to pack the roadbed in strips. The cutter that's running on the hardpack will wear more. If that area happens to be where two of your cutters splice, you'll end up with two that have more wear on one end than the other. Then when you rotate them they will no longer match. This will create a "ledge" in the roadbed. The wedge and pin system will be a disaster when blading damp material and/or vegetation at the edge of the roadbed. Material will not easily flow along the angled moldboard. If conditions are bone dry with no vegetation, might not be so much of a problem. Not sure how you claim better fuel economy?? You'll have to explain how a notched cutter will pull easier than a smooth one? As to mixing the material. Again, if the material moisture content is right and no foreign material your cutters should blend it rather well. If the roadbed is rutted or uneven for whatever reason you will cut thru the roadbed crust in the high spots and barely, if at all, cut the low spots. So uneven blending of material and roadbed repair will be the result. As to your marketing. I think you should find a seasoned operator that you can trust. Then provide that operator a set of cutters. Let him completely wear them out. Then get him to narrate your next video. Post the results here.
As a former "factory operator" for a large construction equipment manufacturer I have trained operators on the use of the Sandvik type cutting edges. John Deere uses their brand they call "Stingers". I can tell you from experience that in some conditions, medium moisture, sandy soil, low vegetation growth on shoulder, this type of cutting edge can actually break up the vegetation and mix it into the road-base. I experienced this in northern Wisconsin the the early fall of the year. I was surprised at how well these rotating bits would break up the sod and process it into the base material. I thought as you did ovrszd, that the vegetation would just bunch up in clumps and cause a mess. I've experienced that as well! My point is, be flexible, creative, open-minded, when you are trying something new. Good luck.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR SHARING YOUR THOUGHTS! THIS IS HOW WE GET BETTER
Thank you for your thoughts on that, and we have found much the same that the BX500 actually does a great job of breaking up that vegetation because the dirt in the roots of the vegetation has a place to escape (the holes of the blades) and due to the nice rotation/flow of material by the time the vegetation gets to the edge of the board it is just grass/weeds/etc that can blow off instead of a huge clop of material.
I agree. I've ran Sandvik cutters for 20 years. I use them a couple times a year. You have to carefully select when that time is to get the best result. If you have a windrow of dead material laying at the edge of the roadbed and you want to reclaim some gravel as well as get rid of that windrow the Sandviks do a good job. As you said, flexibility is key. Also accepting failure when you missed the mark by a hair.
One more comment. Geographically speaking. If you think you are going to get a set of notched or toothed cutters and run them all the time you are going to be greatly disappointed. So whatever you get needs to be easily removed or installed. My Sandviks are in 4ft and 3ft lengths with a combination that equals 14ft. I wouldn't want them much longer because of individual weight. But in the end, they aren't any harder to swap out than rotating two 7ft smooth cutters. I rotate my smooth cutters many, many times in their lives to get maximum life. I also chalk number my Sandviks when I remove them so I know how to rotate them the next time I put them on to equalize wear on the tips.
Here a link to the website from Borox with different types of edges: http://www.borox.com/en/products/plough-blades
You make great points here ovrszd and as my strategy always is, I am not here to tell anyone what they are doing is wrong. I am simply here to show them that they do have options, and one option many people do not know much about is the quick change system. Now as you can see from the link that Graderfan kindly shared we do offer many different styles of blades to combat whatever type of road/work situation you encounter. They all fit onto the same mounting board system, and you can carry a different style of blades on the machine with you. The system is meant to give you unmatched versatility and keep the grader out on the road working rather than sitting in the shop getting the blade switched. It does help a guys back over the years as well. I do appreciate all the ideas and input.
I tried to find a video I shot a few years ago rotating standard fit cutter edges. I can't find it. Took me 9 minutes 20 seconds using an air ratchet. I've rotated many on the road using a ratchet and socket. Takes about 30 minutes. Your system would certainly be quicker. So we have to put a price on time. Last cutters I bought were $129 for a 5/8"x8"x7'. '
This seems like the sharq blades. How do they stand up against hard strikes? One of our gravel pits is in a road that was built by logging companies in the 60s. Years of hauling wood and gravel have left a hard packed surface with little or no fines. The big bonus are the granite boulders that poke their heads up to try and rattle your teeth. Even at the turtles pace I have broken steel edges. The 26 kms can wear a new set of steel blades about 3/4 out with at least an inch and a half round in the center. If there is enough left to bother with, they cut it straight again with the torch when I get back to the shop.
Ok when it comes to price comparison we have to make sure we are comparing apples to apples. Your 5/8" standard edge has a brinell steel around 420 (hardness rating harder equals more wear resistant) our cheapest blade the flat (also most similar to the standard edge) is 600 brinell and goes for $20/ft. Not only should you get much more wear, you will have a better cutting edge because this edge is only 1/2" thick. A thinner blade cuts easier, and you will get all the time you save when you change blades. Think of all the time you have spent changing blades, what if you could get half of that time back? Time is so valuable. So our 7' would cost you $140 and our steel is like a porterhouse compared to the standard steel being a Mcdouble!
Certainly rough and hard roads are tough on everything, the thing to consider here is thinking about actually having the ability to improve this road by being able to cut and rotate what material you do have. Having a blade that can do some work on this road over time will change this road, its not going to be overnight info commercial "wow" stuff but over time it will get better. As the road gets better your edges will start lasting longer, you could run a set of our 3/4" flats and I would guarantee you get more life than your 3/4" now. When you get that wear instead of torching it or putting a new edge on you knock out 16 wedges and flip/flop the blades. As far as the granite is concerned the blades pins are made to shear with certain amount of forces act on them, this is an effort to protect the valuable moldboard so you would have to treat those the same as you do now, but if your able to cut and you will find more material than you knew you had those parts may be able to get packed over with time. All I can say is that we sell both standard blades and quick change and I would put the quick change quality up against a standard steel edge any day, with absolutely no worries.
As a reply to this we also have sandvik boards that are quick change ready so you could wedge your scarifier board on and off too and interchange between every blade.
DMC, I would suggest that if you want to sell parts, you take your discussion off line.
Seriously? I have enjoyed reading his thread as have others I don't buy into the system but I still want to know about it
While I am aware of the science of grading a road, unless wearparts wants to bring a system around this summer to demo on my machine, I can't see the higher ups going for it. Are all the blades honeycombed? I'd need a solid one for road shouldering. That edge would do a number on fresh asphalt
John C. its unfortunate that what I said caused you to react in such an authoritative way, but I was simply following along with what another user mentioned. They wanted to know how the price compares, and in this industry price is very important. I was not shilling the parts I was simply spreading some knowledge so that a person/company could understand the product better. If the thread bothers you I am sure there is a way to not see updates from it any longer.
Thank you for your support, I was simply trying to get the information out that was asked of me.
There are two different companies in Canada that provide the quick change grader blade from Borox, so it wouldn't even be my company that would sell the parts. I do know they do run demos, and no not all the blades are honeycombed they have a variety of different blade styles. For those exact reasons that you mentioned being some guys prefer a straight edge for shouldering, or plowing snow, and they want the honeycomb for cutting situations.
Jonas just so you know there are counties in MN running this system right now.
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Use them on rock,gravel,sand and rail ballast and work well mostly dry grading advantages of swapping sections around to keep the edge strait being thin means less heat last longer also use sandvic edges but they take a bit more to push around
Yep, Sandvic's take some HP. Not having used any other type it's just an assumption on my part that they all do?? In my World there are definite advantages for any type of serrated or toothed cutter. Those times are few. My issue with this system is the complexity of it if only needed periodically. Maybe I missed it somewhere in this discussion but what is the cost of a 14' system?
Ovrszd being that the last time I shared some pricing info I bothered a member I would be more than happy to share the details with you, but because I want to make sure I am not coming across the wrong way I would suggest sending me a direct message. One thing that we do need to clear up though is that the quick change system its not just a serrated tooth cutter, there are 7 different thickness/style blades. They have serrated and flat blades, and we are now getting scarifier quick change and a carbide quick change. So the system allows itself to transform into any style of blade that currently exists but on one system. I just wanted to make sure to get that across because if it was only a serrated blade option I would agree that it does not make sense to get the system just for one use. This however is not the case as you can see from the image there are many different styles.
Thank you very much for clearing this up for me, I appreciate it.
Nice dance. I think your system would be extremely expensive because I would also have to buy your regular cutters to "fit" the hardware I had to purchase to bolt onto my moldboard. So once I convert to your system I am committed to it and must purchase all the expendables thru your company? I'm just trying to clarify a cost ratio to this product compared to simply using standard, replaceable cutters. For example, we purchased our Sandvic's 20 years ago paying $4K for a 14' moldboard. Sounds like a very high cost until you realize the life span and the ability to swap in/out any other type of cutter. Any time a "new" product is discussed I like to see a cost estimate. Without that estimate how can anyone know the value of the product? So maybe what I should have asked is what's the "ballpark" cost of all the hardware necessary to convert my moldboard to accept your cutters? Then we can assume your various types of cutters are comparably priced to other brands. Thanks for your patience.
Sorry for the delay in this response, I can certainly give you a ballpark and hopefully lessen your worry a bit about being tied into one supplier. I do understand the worry of buying into a system and being at the mercy of one supplier, there are some competitors so the pricing market stays competitive so that is good for you. Secondly, the ballpark cost for the mounting boards is around $45/ft the majority of the cost comes from the actual hardware that is included (wedge, wedge bolt, washer, bolts, etc). The blades range in price from $20/ft up to $45 depending on which style you go with (flat, bx500 (honeycomb), 5/8" flat, 3/4" flat, 5/8" BX500, quick change carbide (more than $45/ft) quick change scarifier board(over $45) so it really is a one stop system for any type of blade you want to run on the conditions you encounter. Remember that if you compare these prices to your regular steels its like comparing the price of a porterhouse steak to the price of stew meat. Steel blades may touch 400 brinell, these blades are 520-600 Brinell depending on style. So not only are they going to double the typical wear life (at that point your ahead) they are also going to cut much easier as you operate them at a 70 degree angle. Always making a sharp angle on the bottom. This is where you save fuel, we have large counties who have cut their fuel bill by 40-50% (pays for the mounting board quickly) and then your literally making money by running these blades. The bonus is the quality of your roads due to always being able to cut washboards and potholes, and the ease of change making it much easier on the body and getting full use out of the steel by rotating. There are a couple guys running them down in Missouri.
I have been to a demo on this type of blades seen in the vid, in my honest opinion they would work good on well graveled roads only, if you grade roads in areas where there is ledge, blue rock, and boulders through out the road then you are going to have problems, I would not want to ditch with this type of blades in my area either it wouldn't be very long before they snapped off, I have had straight blades snap off and bend ditching in my area, my personal choice are the Sandvic's or as we call them stinger blades, we compare prices all the time in our shops stingers compared to straight blades, the guy's that prefer straight blades use on average two sets a week at around $350 a set, so that on average is $700 a week give or take, at round 25 weeks a year depending on the weather and winter moving in, if were not grading were ditching, that's around $14000 give or take a season with straight blades, stingers blades I get on average 2 years out of them at $4600 for a full set and I use them for ice blading in the winter also, and replace bits from time to time where some may break or bend during ditching, I always use tranny fluid on the bits to keep them spinning freely and use these blades for everything, as far as price savings its a no brainer.
Thats great to hear what your thoughts are 20/80 and I am in complete understanding that everyone does have their choice for their roads. Now what happens sometimes is that people see this system as having only the honeycomb blade option. There are 6 different blade options along with a quick change scarifier board, and carbide. Now when you speak about the guys who use straight blades and they are using 2 sets of week, with our 5/8" straight blade they would cut that usage in half at the very least so you would be using at most 1 set a week. Typically our other customers can get 3-4 weeks on a set of 5/8" flats. I do understand every road and area is different though. Now when we speak about ditching, that again is a time where it would be convenient to switch to our thinnest flat blade, this blade is perfect for ditching. Then when time to use your scarifiers knock off wedges and put your scarifiers on. When we speak about scarifiers the only real argument we find is that they "last a long time" and that is very true. We sell plenty of scarifier systems and quite honestly are happy too. However when your talking about actual cutting, rotation of material, and having precision over your grade the scarifiers can not compete with a straight blade. They also burn a lot more fuel because your constantly pushing a 1" - 1.5" piece of steel/carbide into the earth. Now again yes they will outlast the blades, but it comes down to what your objectives are. If its strictly just trying to use something that will last the longest per set yes your scarifiers are the one; but when you talk economics and money saving attributes the scarifiers fall by the way side with fuel cost, the time you take soaking them in tranny fluid, more wear and tear on your machine because they pull much harder than a standard blade. Again I 100% believe that every type of blade has a place, but we have crunched the numbers and the quick change blades would destroy scarifier bits on a cost basis, and the add ons of being able to change your blade to your conditions easily (not every road needs to be hit with scarifier bits), the cab envirionment (running your blade at 1500-2000 rpm because these blades cut with ease) and alleviating any worry that maybe your bits arent spinning your way ahead. The beauty with it is that there is a quick change scarifier board as well so you can still use the scarifier bits when you need them. I say this with 100% respect, because I truly enjoy when people share their ideas and that is how we move on to better understanding. Thank you 20/80
Well... i'm not sure how to answer to your reply, the amount of time I have used straight blades compared to stinger blades are around the same and saying that I prefer stingers over all, calling cutting edges straight blades is kind of farthest from the truth, straight blades never stay straight, they wear in the middle and at one end, you have to offset your center pin to combat keeping them straight so you won't lose your material when spreading or start a cut on the wrong side off the road to combat this which is a no no, stinger blades always stay straight which makes them great for spreading, not everybody can use stingers, old hands do not like change and stingers are aggressive, you have to know what your doing but the end result after you get used to them is rewarding, I realize that your company uses higher strength steel in your products to slow down wear but at a cost, I will have to strongly disagree that stinger blades can't compete with straight blades or even your honeycomb style blades, not only that, I burn less fuel than my partner on his new 140m machine using straight blades, often in the middle of the summer when the road is really hard he would have to switch blades to stingers to cut the road, I am not sold on your mounting system either, I would not be able to make a pass ditching in this area without snapping or losing a wedge lock, I have seen this happen in one of our sister shops using your honeycomb style blades, I think your system would work well for just easy normal grading.
The fact that straight blades burn in the middle is a problem, and that is why it is such a great thing to be able to rotate the 3' and 4' sections of the quick change blades around and evenly wear your blade so that you do not have to compromise the use of your grader because your blade is letting you down. When rotated correctly your blade will always be a relative, not perfect, straight edge. Our blade is not simply just the honeycomb but we offer flat blades that fit the quick mount too. I appreciate also that you are able to use less fuel than your partner but that is a small sample size. We have worked with 80-100 different motor graders, and the results are quite obvious on fuel usage. The largest differences in fuel usage come from those who run double carbides or scarifier boards. It is great though that you are able to run your machine in an efficient way for fuel. The points you are making about potentially breaking off a wedge pin in a very tough area of ditch is true, but its also an extreme "worst case scenario" type argument. Overall the system does well in a variety of conditions. As I said earlier I believe that each individual type of blade does have a place; overall from someone who sells all the different types of blades the quick change system is overall the most versatile for use and potential savings. If your having great results with your bits, then you should stick to them. There are plenty of operators who are looking for something better (like your partner maybe) who do appreciate all the benefits associated with this system. Thanks!
Can you give me the names and phone numbers of the Missouri guys running your system?? Thanks!!!
Well... while you are on the side of the road rotating your blades I just cut another mile of road, that's money lost, we have 1500 pieces of equipment when you factor in our sister shops, 200 of them a graders some new some older with a assortment of brands, i'm well aware of fuel costs and fuel savings, from the spring to the fall when the ground freezes I burnt 11892 litres of fuel in a 140h with a 3176 11 litre engine, my partner in a newer, 140 m with a c7 engine same time period burnt 1000 litres more, he has 43 roads to maintain I have 60, he uses straight blades I use stinger blades, so just in our shop stingers are more efficient, other shops are seeing the same results, I can't see using your system being any more efficient.
You work for Dexters?
I work for the province, and its all about saving money and being more efficient, my machine has its own budget, also all of the roads that I am responsible for have their own individual budgets for grading, ditching, culverts and road recovery also winter maintenance, all budgets are carefully watched and audited on a regular basis.
I can't see any advantage of this system over Stingers/Sandviks. That's why I was wanting names/phone numbers of users in my State. I'd like to visit with users in similar situations as mine.
Have you ever been to a demo on these types of blades? if not if you ever get the chance go to it, be interested in your thoughts on them.
No I have not. That's why I'm trying to get the contact information for the "Missouri" guys he has sold to. I'd love to visit with them and if reasonable go watch them in use.
One of our sister shops use the honey comb style on one of their graders, I believe its a John Deere, he is a older hand and a great operator and does not like change, ran straight blades sense he started on a grader, he tried this type of system and liked them, he said the honey comb style reminded him of the old Cat ice blades but wear longer and easier to change by himself, he breaks the wedge locks from time to time and fines they flex abit also running the blade in the mixing position all the time is different, but just sticks with grading well graveled roads, no ditching with them, I think they are the next step to moving to the stingers for hands that don't like to big of a change than what they are used to.
Yep, probably so. Stingers are a pretty big step. I switch back and forth between them and straight cutters. Neighboring township has a set of carbide slotted blades. I saw their grader the other day. He's what I consider a lazy operator. They are ruined from not rotating. The notch is gone in the middle. I number my stingers when I remove them and then put them back on in a different position to spread the work load. They've sure served us well.
That's a good idea, thanks
You're welcome.