I'm looking to see what common practice is when using an excavator and tandem dump truck onsite with 1 operator. Currently I'm charging $105/hr for an EX60-5, and $105/hr for the tandem dump truck individually. I charge a little more for the tandem as it works almost exclusively on a small island that has rugged roads and lots of steep switchback roads and killer driveways. Not to mention the poor back roads to the local gravel pit... So when I charge for using both machines onsite, what would be a fair rate? I don't want to overcharge, but I want a chair to sit on when the music stops so to speak. A particular job that involved many tandem loads likely overweight and in a ravine to excavate for a new concrete stair case. Soil was moved onsite. Any thoughts? Should I charge per tip or include an hourly rate for both machines? I was thinking around $155/ hr for both machines, both of which were worked hard on this particular job. Thanks
Yair . . . Art_H . Not sure I understand your post . . . with one operator you surely can only charge for one machine at a time? Some time back a bloke I knew had a tandem tipper, an eight ton excavator and a skid. The excavator fitted in the truck and the skid rode on a tag along with all its attachments and a fully equipped small workshop including a small lathe. He charged himself out at seventy bucks an hour whether he was on the skid, the truck, the excavator or turning up a pin/welding for others. He wouldn't let operators on his machines and the ones he wasn't running just sat. It certainly seemed to work for him. Cheers.
So the truck is worth nothing as it sits and the excavator loads it? If there was a driver in it it'd be charged at the full rate, right?
Art I am not familiar with your local rates so I can't really comment on that. If you had a driver in the dump truck and your were in the ex, your rate would be $210 per hour. With cutting your rate to $155 per hour your reducing it by $55 per hour. What is your labor burden if you hired a driver? Is it close to $55 per hour?
I try to figure around $40/hr for labour. Just an estimate. I have no employees save myself and the wife does the books at home etc. I want to be fair but the giving the milk for free is not really an option. Certainly when I abuse the machinery on a job. On the other hand, I don't want to overprice myself. The other facet is that within a small community, my 'customers' are often long family friends going back generations. Maybe a charge per tip is more effective. Local rates for my excavator are $108/hr, and $98/hr for the tandem dump truck. As mentioned I do charge a little more for the tandem due to the very aggressive service on the island. Thanks for the thoughts.
Yair . . . digger242j That is a fair point but, as I said, the system worked for him and he worked like that for many years until he retired and lived off his investment property. I believe the rates he charged over the years were at the top end of the range and (in his customers eyes) were justified by having in owner actually doing the work . . . I would imagine in the scenario as outlined in post #5 his rate would (these days) have been around $105/hr . . . that is to say down a tad on the excavator, up on the truck, okay on the skid and right up there for mechanical work. I remember he always reckoned he set out to cover his costs the first week of every month and absolutely refused to spend time preparing estimates or quotes. Cheers.
Oh, I'm not questioning that the system worked for him, cause you said it did. I was just trying to raise the point that, if you've got two pieces of equipment tied up on the job, even with only one operator, there's some additional fee that's only fair to charge. One could make the case that if the truck weren't there, a driver could take it, and it could be working elsewhere for the full rate, and the customer wouldn't really have any grounds to argue otherwise. To look at it another way, and maybe this'll help the discussion, some part of the rate for any piece of equipment is based simply on the money that's tied up in owning it. (What it costs for the operator, and the fuel, and the wear and tear, goes on top of that.) If we take that as a given, a more expensive piece will have a higher hourly rate attached to it, just because there's more money tied up in it. Doesn't it follow then, that if a guy has money tied up in two pieces of equipment that are on the same job, that portion of the hourly rate should at least be adjusted to compensate for the sum of the cost of the two pieces?
The way I look at it on a one man operation with several pieces of equipment is about the same as making hay . One man , tractor , mower conditioner , hay rake , baler , hay wagon , and a barn to park it all in . Which piece of equipment of equipment is most important ? Well it takes all of it to get the job done . Charge more for the machine that costs the most or has a high rate of wear & tear , high fuel rate , ect . Just moved on to a job today & I was thinking about this thread . Will have 4 different trucks used on site and skid loader & backhoe attachment . Each one has its own job to do . Then it will set while another truck works , Much like when making hay . It is a bid job so if a truck or piece of equipment is setting shut down on the site I don't charge any hourly fee for it during the project . Charge for moving it in and time that it works .
Yair . . . Gotcha folks. It's an interesting discussion, there are lots of different ways of looking at any given scenario . . . and this board helps to get them out there. Cheers.
It does raise a good question and I'm glad to see it has created some valuable discussion. The addition of the tandem truck to my business has really helped out and I really wouldn't have been able to do this job without it. Just a couple hourly rates from 2011... the local paving company charges $66 for laborers. I'll have to find their rate sheet to add more numbers. Another excavating company on the main island charged in 2011 for a 20k lb machine $95/hr. Tandem was $95/hr as well. His combination rate was $160/hr for the excavator, tandem and a Bobcat onsite with 1 operator. They also charged $150 move in fee for the excavator only. I guess what I'm trying to get at, what is the benefit to me as a service provider to go and buy/maintain more machinery? In this particular case I would have hired another tandem truck to come over and let me load him and wait for him to return etc. The total hourly rate would be at least $210. I would still only make $105/hr for the excavator. If I still only charged $105/hr for both exc and tandem, then I'm paying fuel and maintenance on a more expensive machine to operate than the excavator. All for only the excavator rate. The way I see it is that the only way it really works is to charge extra for the extra machinery onsite. The question then is what is a fair amount to charge? I really appreciate the input. When I first started out I really tended to be shy about even giving out an invoice. Now I just want to survive and even be able to offer the service at all.
I am in same situation with my mini ex/bobcat biz. I have all the toys...I mean tools to get the job done...trying to bill for them is always a challenge. For example I am hired by the hr to excavate inside a factory for new machine base but we often find old concrete machine base or foundation barried in the way. So I have hydraulic breaker for mini...so far I have been charging a daily rate for hammer. Sort of ok. But machine is taking extra abuse for no extra $ Anybody found solution For this ?
Yair . . . pondo . This is not my area at all but I would have thought it reasonable to have a separate higher machine rate for running a hammer not unlike is (or used to be) negotiated for ripping rock with a dozer . . . a higher rate plus ripper boots used to be fairly standard. Cheers.
Cool...Scrub, just for comparison what would the standard rate have been for dozer and what would rate be when ripping Rock? Do not have to be exact just curious. Thxs
Pondo you need to figure out what it costs to run that hammer - purchase/capital costs, maintenance, repair and replacement. That needs to be added to the regular hourly rate of the exc. plus additional $$ for the wear and tear on the machine. Hammers will literally beat a machine to death.
Yair . . . pondo . You got me thinking now mate. As well as I remember in the early '70's we were chaining with D9g's for sixty bucks an hour . . . no rippers on machines and I had to hire in one to rip some sandstone on an irrigation channel job . . . they stung us eighty an hour plus boots and fuel and I did the hauling. Cheers.
Just my 2 cents. I always remember that the iron seemed to get about 15% extra for rock or severe duty work. I think your ex60 rate is good, but you should be getting $20 more for the truck. I would base an hourly rate on an 8 hr day and using each machine 5hrs per day. So ex-60 would be 5 x 105=$525 and truck $125 x 5=$ 625 for a total of $1150 per day and divide by 8= $143.75/hr. or round up to $145 or more. So if someone hires your truck, $125/hr, your hoe $105/hr. Add 15% for rock. If someone hires you complete then use $145 (or your thought of $155/hr) and just do what needs to be done. Only problem is if you have competition and they want to run their truck around for less. That is why gravel trucks are not money makers. Make your money with your hoe and the jobs you do and complete. In other words do a good job and let your work speak for itself and the customers should keep coming back. Also I would try and work 10 hr days. Do you think a 1 man contracting show can make ends meet on $1450/day? Just curious what Island are you working on? Cheers Lowbed Driver
We're located on Thetis Island. A lot of our business with the tandem is fetching aggregates from Vancouver Island. For that we do a flat rate of $440 and that includes the ferry fees of $100. I can make a round trip in about 4 hours, but the truck is not running on the ferry etc. Lots of wisdom there, thanks for your input, reasonably local input at that. As for making ends meet...I do all my own work on the machine and everything is paid for. My grandfather in the late '50s on Thetis charged his D6 Cat dozer with arch out for $10/hour if I recall. They were clearing for the new power lines.
Ive done a lot of work like this in the past. The easiest way Ive found to charge is to keep track of how long it takes to load and then how long to go dump. If you spend half of the time loading and you work a 10 hr day, charge 5 hrs for each etc.
I do see where you are coming from. I used to charge by the machine hours and the remainder at labor only hours. Until I asked a well respected owner/operator how he charges, and he said by the watch. I haven't looked back since. I really want to be fair, but I also have many other places to take my machine for work, and they all want it done asap. My profitability is now in a place where I don't feel burdened when the machine needs money put into it. While I do see the logic in many of the methods, when it comes to pay the piper and repair the machines, then time will tell on how effective they are. As for the dump truck, I would consider it working if it has a load in it.
I just did a quick calc, and for a 22 hr difficult excavation I charged $3400 with move-in and a little bit other labor/planning etc. If I had to hire a tandem load (and I don't think he would have driven his truck down to where it was anyway...lol) it would have been $4600. So in the end I feel that I saved the customer $1200. Provided a great service, with no timing issues with 2 separate companies and add the ferry time and fees on top...
Another way to look at this is to price as if you were renting equipment. Suppose you had to rent your hoe @ $350 per day, and the truck at the same rate. At the very least you need to get the rental rate out of each, and then perhaps split your operating and trucking rate between the two. In other words, in an eight hour day you would need $700 for the equipment to be on site, and then charge your $105 per hour on top of that. $105 x 8 = $840 + $700 = $1540. Where you charge the same hourly rate for the hoe and truck, it really doesn't matter which is used more during the eight hours. We probably all have different ways of getting to relatively the same answer.