the head on our mulcher quit working and finding info on it is all but impossible. I've put a gauge on the motor on the head and its got 400 lbs at idle and it will spike to 700 lbs and back to 500 when I throttle it up. I know this is low but I don't know what its supposed to be. Does anyone have any experience with these machines? normally its a great machine as long as its not being used. as soon as they start using it = :shf
I have no experience with a c100 but have repaired c130 or c140. I think I have pressure specs, will look. The ones I repaired had a suction strainer in tank for each suction line, I seem to recall the strainer for the implement pump was the least microns. The suction strainer was difficult to remove. Once the strainer alone was the malfunction and the other time they removed for catastrophic pump failure clean up.
Need to isolate head form machine like parts and service said most likely oil restriction on suction side or component failure ( excessive leakage ) is there charge pressure test ports ?
Sounds like you're reading charge pressure. According to the Rayco website: http://www.raycomfg.com/products/forestry-machines/c100lgp-forestry-mulcher.html It's closed loop hydrostatic, 39 gpm at 5,500 psi under load. The motor would have to be stalled in order to get a true pressure reading. Need to check whatever controls the pump stroke, switch, lever, etc. First guess would be the pump is not coming on stroke to push the oil around the loop. May be some safety switches or sensors there somewhere also.
If mike is taking pressure at motor Should be return or high pressure It probably be messy if he's had 700 psi return pressure lol. And if the pressure is changing the control circuit is operational. Most likely it not building enough charge pressure to build high pressure. Or leakage is to high on high pressure side.
Hydrostatic loop, 400 psi at idle, changes with rpm. Most likely charge pressure, although that seems high. It will be the same on both sides of the loop if it is charge pressure. If it's true hydrostatic as it says in the specs, there really isn't a return side, just low loop and high loop sides.
Got you now lantrax wasn't thinking straight your thinking pump is neutraled and whole system is in standby mode. I got a little ahead of myself It could be on control side. Best to find a test port for charge pressure at pump and monitor as not to harm system if you are losing charge pressure.
If the c100 is similar to the c140 then the charge pressure should be 1000psi. There maybe a test port to test on the tractor but Mike said that he tested at the motor but didn't say which side. I think that if it's on the pressure side and the pump is activated, its very reasonable to assume the cutter pump has failed. The cutter pump on my c140 blew it's guts out in under 2000hrs.
1,000 psi charge pressure? That's crazy, I wonder why they do that? Never heard of anything that would handle more than 500, but then I'm sure I haven't seen everything yet, lol.
Yeh lantraxco when the pump failed it still had 650psi charge pressure. When we striped the pump down the charge pump was AOK but the rotating group was smashed to bits. These pumps take a hell of a hammering with spiking pressure reaching 20,000psi lasting milli seconds which can only measured with the likes of a Hi Dac mapper.
when I looked at it I didn't have much time. there was a test port on the cutter pump and I hooked the gauge up to it. I don't know if it was on the return or not. it does have a charge pressure rest port but its smaller than my hyd test kit so I need to find the right fitting and test it. the charge port does have a sticker saying to use a 1000 psi gauge so I assume it should be 1000 or less but wasn't sure what it should be. when I activate the head, the rhythm of the engine doesn't change at all, like nothings happening. and yes the cables hooked up and it moves the lever on the pump.
Try switching the two cross over relief valves on the cutter head, If you have one stuck open it wouldn't build pressure in that direction, switching it, or running in reverse. Is it a mulching head or stumper wheel? Either way, disconnect and plug high pressure lines and recheck pressure, if it builds then your problem is at the head,
"Little Johnny, can you say "accumulator"?" Or does it have one/some? Need one on the charge also to prevent cavitation during those spikes.... probably one of the reasons they're running high charge pressure.
There's no "accumulator" on the circuit. Mike, disconnect the feed/pressure hose where it comes out of the tractor and pressure and flow test there. What breed of pump is the c100 running? .
As I suspected. I'm no engineer, but a small accumulator in the pressure line as close to the motor as possible, and one in the charge circuit might do wonders for pump and motor longevity. YMMV
ok I got back to the machine today. the test port on the motor is on the pressure side I believe. I got a fitting to check charge pressure and it had 375lbs at idle and 425 at wide open. I pulled out the screen on what I believe is the return side and it was clean with no metal. I also re checked pressure at mulching head motor and the first time I throttled up it bumped up to 700 and then back to 375. after that I could only get around 425 at wide open throttle. not sure where to go next.
Plug and cap mower and see if you can build high pressure or install flow meter on machine to test pumps if you have one available.
there again not sure on the 100, but on the 130 the charge pump was a separate pump not internal to the implement pump. The next step i would take would be to plug the motor off and then check pressure, if pressure now comes up when the lever is activated then failure is in the motor, if not then it is in the pump.
rmllaue91 beat me to it by 2 minutes.
Thanks guys. I don't have a flow meter but I will plug it off and see what happens.
Be absolutely sure your pump has relief valves in it before capping off lines, MOST newer systems are that way, but now and then you run into one where the reliefs are at or in the motor head. Deadheading a high pressure piston pump with no relief is good way to ruin at the very least your day. :IMO
where would the relief valves be? this machine is probably 10-12 years old.
This is it. Been rode hard for a long time
Good point about relief valve s can cap the lines going to mower motor and try turning the mover by hand.
Got any pictures of the pump and motor, or models off the tags? Really depends on what make and model the pump and motor are, but reliefs are usually pretty easy to spot. Yeah, she could use a bath, but pretty straight really.
I don't have any pics of the pump but can get some. the hoses to the head have quick couplers on them so it would be really easy to disconnect it. I do know that the pump on the head is a parker but I cant remember the name of the main pump.
One would assume that if the hoses have quick couplers that the manufacturer has made provision for deadheading the circuit. Sorry if I caused a panic, I just tend to always assume worst case unless I know otherwise
better safe than sorry, just glad to have some help on this. :usa
Mike L any updates as to the problem?
yes. I stopped today and unhooked the hoses going to the head. at idle it has 400 lbs and at wide open it peaked at about 450 and settled back to about 430. Is there anything else I need to check before I condemn the charge pump?
Hey mike idk charge pressure spec but even if thats low I think the mower would still move I think you might have implement pump problems. Did you get a pick of the main pump might be a relief valve issue.
no I didn't. I'll try and get one tomorrow. it looks like multiple pumps lined up together.
Hey mike do you have books from rayco for c100 I purchased the set from rayco for t275 and was under 80 bucks there pretty simple but they help. I think they came pretty quick also. Take some pics of pumps the manufacturers usally have information available to help diagnose repair and design and system becasue there so widely used.
I don't have the books but for that price I cant afford not to have them. thanks for the tip :thumbsup
No guarantees on price for yours but worth a look.
Mike, without knowing what type and breed of pump on the c100, I strongly believe the charge pump is ok and that the cutter pump has failed. If I'm correct then the more you run it the more contaminated oil you are pumping throughout the machine leading to even larger problems. Sorry for being a gloom merchant but I've been there done that.
Yeah i burned up a saw motor trying to test... anyone that says an education is cheap isn't to educated.
How are you going with the 100 Mike?
I haven't looked at it this week. been busy with other equipment so this has been put on the back burner. I will try at least to get pics of the pump so I can get help identifying the reliefs.
The first pic is what I believe is the pump that powers the head and the second pic is all the pumps in the machine. The dealer thought that the charge pump was on the very end but in the picture you can see the cable and lever that actuates the head. So where are the reliefs?
Looks like a 90 series. The hex standing straight up is the charge relief, if you look on the left side there's a shorter hex cartridge there, that's one of the multifunction valves for the main ports, the other will be in the same place on the bottom of the left side of the pump. The charge connection is hard to see, if there's a pressure hose connected between the two main reliefs (multifunction valves) that would be external charge supply most likely, if there's a suction line connected on the right side down between the two main work ports that is suction for an integral charge pump. The elbow dead center on the top there should be a case drain. Not sure why, but they have a small hose connected to the right of the case drain, that's servo pressure which is what shifts the pump swash plate in one direction? Looks like they have twenty pounds of pumps in a ten pound sack, I do not envy you! :cussing
Lantrax is spot on again. The only thing I have to add is the back of that pump looks to short to be the internal charge pump type. She also needs a bath lol
Might just try taking that actuator cable off, gently move the control lever on the pump in the opposite direction of normal with the engine idling... if she takes off in reverse rotation it would be a clue? Rmllarue91, yeah now you mention it, the aux plate is very short! It looks like a charge hose on the left side but it was so dirty I wasn't sure? LOL
The implement pump is the one with the lever , it is a eaton pump. The sauer pumps are the left and right drive pumps they each have an internal charge pump as each side is a closed loop system. The gear pump is the boom/tilt pump. The implement pump houses the implement pressure reliefs , I seem to recall they must be adjusted by shimming the valve .
I would respectfully beg to differ, that front pump is a Sauer-danfoss series 90, and it is a closed loop pump. The multifunction valves serve as pressure limiters if so equipped, and always main reliefs, as well as being the charge check valve for each side of the loop. They are adjustable with an allen wrench. Perhaps you're thinking of a different model? I agree the two rear piston pumps are Sauer and the suction line is teed to both integral charge pumps.
I agree, i now see the separation and the charge pressure relief that is defiantly sauer. I have had a c130 all the way down for catastrophic implement pump failure and it had an eaton , so you know about assuming . Either way my next step would be to isolate the pump from motor while watching charge pressure variations between the two. Can plug them off right where the hoses exit the cab. Also would get it on to some cants and concrete before I disabled it if it required pump removal, as it might require going underneath.
Just to clarify the track drive pumps are more than likely to be Saur Danfoss H1 series, same as the C140 but maybe a different size. I can't see from the pic's what the cutter pump is but I'll betya dollar to a dime it has it's own internal charge pump. The Eaton pump has it so do Saur Danfoss 90 and H1series. As I said Many posts back check the pump pressure where the hoses exit the machine and go from there.
Looking closer the cutter pump is NOT a Saur Danfoss, their main hoses come of the side of the pump, same as the track drive pumps
90 series with side ports, right side... note the port in the center between the two main ports, this is suction for the internal charge pump, if so fitted. 90 series top and left side, this pump does not have the lever must be hydraulic pilot control. In any case you can see the small charge relief hex on top there, and on the side the two multifunction valves... in between those there's a large hex plug with a smaller test port plug in the center of it, this is either left plugged as shown, will have one hose connected if it's external charge, or will have an adapter fitting screwed in and two hoses connected for remote filtration. Cheers then, Lanway