Buddy that knows way more than i do came over to put rebuilt injection pump back on my 1975 Case 580B. Its a Roosamaster pump. Found top dead center on flywheel and pump was marked by shop that rebuilt it and was also lined up correctly. We had the thing on and off like 3 times now. It will not fire up. We are getting fuel out of every injector and we triple checked top dead center and pump marks. Everything is innorder as best we can tell and nothing. Were getting fuel, smoke out of the exhaust but she wont run. Any ideas?
What issues was it having that a rebuilt pump was installed? Were the injectors pop tested? Any difference with block heater or a hit of ether?
Wants to run on ether but wont. Injectors were not pop tested. I dont know what that means. The pump was leaking internally and externally very bad. Did not try block heater. Its been in my shop at 65 degreed for last two months.
Did you remove the injectors and send them along with the pump? did the pump rebuilder ask about the injectors? Do you have the injectors out and spraying? It's firing on ether, but won't start up? sounds like the timing is way off. How does it sound cranking? is it fast enough. You said top dead center on the flywheel, how about the valves? or how did you check that the pump is not 180 off, or one revolution of the crankshaft?
So was running before rebuild, but leaking? Or was it having running issues as well attributed to the pump? Pop test is checking that injectors "pop" at the correct pressure and checking spray pattern. If injectors are worn out and a new pump is installed, you can have a hard time starting or running since popping too early will affect your injection timing. How many hours on the machine?
Theres god only knows how many hours on machine. Ive owned it 21 years and the hour meter was not working when i bought it. It ran ok before but was smoking quite a bit. I did not send the injectors with the pump. The shop did not ask for them. We rried rotating the pump 180 degrees and it made no difference. Sounds like its turning over as fast as it always has but just will not fire. Can i just buy new injectors? Or do they have to be matched to the pump? Kinda lost here. Sorry for the lack of knowledge.
Is the throttle held to fast? and the shut off is working? And you're getting air going through the muffler, like puffs of smoke, not just a little seeping out? Plug it in and try again when it's warmed up, don't know what else to say without seeing it. Yes you can just buy new injectors, and they're probably fairly cheap. If you knew you were getting good ones, then it would make sense to change them all at the same time as the rebuilt pump. Hard to know the new ones are good without getting them tested though.
What brand injectors do you recommend getting if i get some?
Also, one thing that may be of importance is that when they rebuilt my pump he said everything inside was in really good shape except for the governor mechanism was broken. He replaced it. I dont know if that would raise problems with the injectors now that its been replaced? Also whats the reason for plugging tank heater in? Just so everything is hot and spind easier? Could the crank sensor be an issue? Looks like just a bolt a d spring combo so i dont know what could fail. The friend installing my pump has done many pumps before. Im not saying hes and expert but he's way more knowledgeable than I am. We also had valve cover off to make sure valves were on compression stroke etc. Thank you for any and all responses.
The engine wasn't turned over with the injector pump not fitted to the timing cover ..... by any chance??
I dont believe so but i do know when he tore it apart multiple times yesterday that one of those times it did get turned over without putting the crankshaft sensor in. He realized somehow it was ledt on the bench. So i don't know if that would make a difference?
What are you calling a "crankshaft sensor"? is that the part that goes in the flywheel to lock the timing? Yes, the block heater is just to warm everything up so it starts easier. Better and safer than ether.
Its a bolt with a spring on it. Sits in the snout of pump shaft, forward of the timing gear. When u put the timing cover on i believe it gets depressed. Not sure what that piece does.
Sensor ---This it ?? #8 ??
10 and 8 together. Its like a bolt with a spring. Yes
10 and 8 together. Its like a bolt with a spring. Yes
I would recommend BRAND new Injectors from Stanadyne. I bought mine from a local injection shop for~$96 each. Case dealer wanted $220 EACH.... I went the cheap route (Less than $100 for 4 injectors) the first time BEFORE buying the Stanadyne injectors and even tested them before putting them in. They ran ~ 4-5 hours total before they acted up. When you see what the spray pattern of a new injector looks like compared to a dirty one it's amazing. The new ones pretty much put out a fog of fuel vs. a stream from a dirty injector. Also you mentioned you turned the injection pump 180. You actually need to turn the ENGINE over not just turn the pump. Another thing that can make it hard to start is if you are setting the engine to TDC when you install the pump and line up the marks in the pump. This causes the timing to be late. You need to make sure to set the engine at the 8 degree before top dead center mark BEFORE putting the pump on with the lines in the pump aligned.
The thing you are calling a crank sensor is just a spring loaded stub to keep the end of the pump shaft aligned and pressed back. I am assuming he took it apart to verify the alignment marks did line up.
How do you determine where 8 degrees before top dead center is?
All this talk about injectors is ridiculous.. it ran before he took it off.. it’s obvious a rebuild error. If the guy didn’t put the weight retainer on the head correctly, the lines in the pump will b 180* out of time..hence pulling it off and rotating the inside of the pump.. Have u cleaned out the checkball return connector.??(if it has one) Try starting it WITHOUT THE RETURN LINE HOOKED UP AND THE FITTINGS OFF THE TOP OF THE PUMP (RETURN) Are the lines loosened at the injectors.??
Yes he had the lines off at all four injectors and it was spitting fuel. He did try starting it as well with return line disconnected. But we did not advance the timing to 8 degrees as stated earlier. He took out the cap on side of block....lined up top dead center on that and then opened up the access panel on the pump and that was timed or those lines were lined up. Maybe that is why it wont fire because the 8 degrees wasn't taken into account. I probably sound dumb the way i state stuff. I know nothing regarding pumps or engine stuff but my buddy has worked on quite a few roosamaster pumps. Mainly on International farm tractors as he is a huge farmall/international nut.
There may be be chance someone previously marked the pump flange and timing gear cover with a chisel mark. It is commonly done to ensure that pump timing is exactly where it was before removal of the pump. Look closely at the mounting flange of the pump for the mark. "spitting fuel" --- No, there should be fine mist emitting from the injector nozzles.
Wont probably have a chance to work on it till the weekend again. I will look at the flange. Thanks for all the info
You say that the governor mechanism was broken, do you mean the weight retainer ring was shot? Did you replace the old style weight retainer with the one piece style? and if you did , did you transfer the timing mark to the new "basket"?
WOW......this has some promise! Please continue!
I am not sure regarding the go ernor. All i know is that was the internal governor inside the pump that was replaced. Here's what i can tell you now and please dont ridicule me or my friend for the mistakes made as i have learned a lot from not knowing much. Apparently, when he removed the pump he never marked the position it was originally in. When he removed it he also removed the pump shaft and sent that into the shop with pump. He also removed the timing gear that spins the pump shaft but never marked the original.position. Now i don't know anything about this stuff and i should have done my homework before having him do this project. Please dont reply with telling me how big of an idiot i was or friend. Im asking where do i go.from here. He has tried everything from advancing pump timing to advancing flywheel from 0 to 18 degrees. I told him that according to the information you guys sent me from the manual the flywheel needs to be positioned at 8 degrees advanced. What can be done from here? I have close to.$2000 in new parts (recored radiator, rebuilt pump, new starter, etc) and a tractor that wont even pop off at all.
We are going to have to re-time everything starting from scratch. 1. Is this the 188 or 207 engine? 2. Is the injector pump currently on or off the engine? 3. Which injector pump do you have? (sorry, I dont have time to read through this whole thread looking for info). 4. If the pump drive gear was removed from the gear train then the timing mark on the gear is worthless now. The front timing cover would need to be removed so the timing marks can be realigned. 5. Does the engine have a timing pointer on the front cover? Is the engine balancer marked?
There is a possibility that the gear can be reinstalled without removal of the front cover. That is providing you can physically see the timing mark on the drive gear for the injector pump gear. If you can see it......(it will come up every 2 complete revolutions of the crankshaft) then we can get it on the #1 compression stroke and realign that gear to the proper position. Its been a long time since I have done one of those engines so I dont remember if the timing mark can be seen.
if the gear has a keyway it will have to be timed. if it is held on a tapered shaft with no keyway, the gear will likely not need to be timed. there is another previous thread for timing a case engine that has pretty much all the information you need. it wasn't too long ago. it was under the title of TIMING MARKS or something- i don't remember exactly
Its the 188 diesel. The pump timing gear does have a slotted key-way. I didnt notice any marks on that timing gear the pump shaft turns. But there is a double pointer indicator going off memory that is on the crankshaft timing gear. Currently the pump is still on the tractor. Thx
HeavyEquipmentForums This might be the thread you want. I'll leave it to thepumpguy's posts, it's not hopeless, just requires a little outside the box thinking, maybe trial and error.
The last post in that thread was quite interesting ! The mark was there.
My flywheel has mark for top dead center. I guess what im asking/wondering is this.....since my buddy pulled the pump off and also removed the pump shaft and sent them in to get rebuilt....he did not mark that slotted timing gear that spins the fiel pump with the crankshaft gear. So, how do you know when you put that pump shaft gear back into the machine that its in the correct position? I see no marks on that pump shaft timing gear itself but there is a pointer on the crankshaft timing gear. Can the pump.timing gear go back in at any position or does that gear have to be on the exact cog he removed it at withoit making the mark?
Did you get the timing marks on # 10 and 14 lined up on their marks correctly ?
Thats my question.....i dont see any timing marks on the #10. All i see is that double pointer on the front of the #14.
Im assuminf if those two gears are not matched exactly it will not fire?
yes that is correct. The proper alignment of them is just as important as the two lies in the pump timing window. One tooth off and you are screwed.
If you follow these instructions EXACTLY as stated your 188 will run if the pump is installed correctly. Instruction # 6 is probably where something wasn't done correctly.
This is why it’s so damn important to time it (line up the 2 lines in the pump window) BEFORE U remove ANY injection pump.!! If u had, this would be a non-issue.. U would just mount the pump, line up the lines in the pump and slide the gear on.
Thank you for all your responses. I will update everyone when theres more progress.
Angus, On the injection pump gear, Look for a round dimple just a few degrees to the right of center If you drew a line vertically with the key slot to the top. The dimple will be on the outer ring to the inside of the gear teeth. I am looking at one of those gears right now.I hope I described that so you can find yours.
A picture of the pump drive gear or both gears would help anyone reading this thread for timing help.
Good idea! And here is the picture to go with my crazy in the head description. On the injection pump gear, Look for a round dimple just a few degrees to the right of center If you drew a line vertically with the key slot to the top. The dimple will be on the outer ring to the inside of the gear teeth.
Perfect ! Tooo bad a drawing showing that, was never put in the service manual. Or the installed gears with the pointer in the proper position.
Heres the latest updates. Im getting really pissed. This should not be that difficult. Eric 1 cnc...thanks for your picture and drawing but i did not see it until i came on here tonight to respond with my frustrations. Here goes, so as you recall my buddy has been doing all the work not me. This is not my area of experise so bear with me. He sent the pump back to the pump guy again to have him re-check everything. The pump was bench flowed and is working properly. When he had the damn pump and shaft out last time he some how lost the roll pin or whatever you call that piece that goes into the hole in the injection pump shaft. Well, it fell out and he couldn't find it. So i went to my local diesel shop and they ordered me a new roll pin. He put it in and set the flywheel to 8 degrees before top dead center, lines in the pump window lined up. Pump shaft was not 180 degrees off as it was matched with the dimples. This thing will not start. Im assuming the damn timing is off regarding the pump gear but i dont know. The worst part is the damn roll pin some how came out apparently while he was turning it over and now i think my injection pump gear is junk. I will send you pics to show that. Called up the local case dealer and they say that the injection pump for that model is either supposed to have a half moon key style or a square key. Never heard of just a roll pin that sits in that groove. Even talked to two different diesel shops who said the same. Obviously there is no key or whatever you call it on my pump shaft. Just a small hole with tapered shaft on end of injection pump shaft. Am i missing something here? A quote on a new pump timing gear from case was like $1250.00 !!! Even if i had to buy that gear whats to say this doesnt happen again? Im beside myself. Any thoughts as to what the hell is going on? I'll attach pictures of my gear and the pump shaft.
Is that a square key or a half-moon key in the gear ? Is there a slot on the pump shaft that we cannot see. Or just a hole for pin ?
That does not look like the right shaft. Here is what it SHOULD look like.
We’re you on tdc in this pic? I don’t see the mark on the cam gear that should be at the pointer
There is no key or slot in the pump shaft. Only a hole. As far as the pump gear there is a square notch or keyway in the gear but i would think the way that it's chip or battered it mite be shot? Also i dont believe its at top dead center now. Its wherever it was when he stopped turning it over and removed the gear. I dont understand? So if it has or had the wrong shaft how did it work before we decided to have the pump rebuilt?
If you go back to post #14 I think it was,Tinkerer posted a schematic that shows the shaft. I didn't notice before but, there are 2 different shafts shown. 1 looks to have a hole like yours and the other shows the shaft like I have with a key. I would think the gear for the shaft with a hole would have a hole for a roll pin. Something weird is going on with your motor.
You did say that your friend sent the shaft in with the pump to be rebuilt. Long shot but MAYBE they sent a different shaft back.
I have never seen a pined shaft and a gear with a key-way together. That is why I asked my previous questions.
I dont know. I can ask him. He sent the pump there twice. Once to be rebuilt and once to be rechecked. Its possible. So, how does a pinned shaft work with a timing gear? Im assuming theres a notch cut out in the gear and after they are lined up you put the roll pin in some how? Can someone explain the procedure? And secondly would this explain why its not starting? Mismatched set of parts? Lastly regarding the timing gear from the pump. I saw eric 1 cnc's diagram about the notch and where to line it up. But where does that tooth on the gear you have referenced go to? Does it line up with that double pointer. Kinda confused on that. Sorry
My buddy is positive that the injector pump shaft was s "pinned shaft" and not "keyed". The gear obviously has a square key. Is it possible that it ran with this set up? Ive had this machine 21 years and never touched the pump before this past winter. Where do i go from here ? Can the shaft i have be machined with a key? Frustrated
Take a look at this.It appears some shafts would have a roll pin. The roll pin would stay in the shaft and not fall out. So, I would say it is possible that yours always was a roll pin. As for the damaged keyway in the gear, If it was mine I think I would buy a used shaft that had the key and use that. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1144144063...MI1bvE5rOA8AIVDLLICh1zcg9jEAQYBSABEgIeTfD_BwE
I don't know "nuttin" ... After looking at Eric's ebay picture and the picture of the gear ... I would suggest, the roll pin has worn the gear keyway. With the taper, the gear should be locked onto the shaft... but with wear, perhaps the gear moves. I had a similar problem with a small engine. The flywheel key was just slightly worn, throwing off the timing.
i have seen a locating pin-style for timing gears but i don't remember where. cummins accessory drive maybe? the pin is usually a solid pin--may be hardened. all it does is locate the gear properly. it does not drive anything. the taper on the matching gear and shaft when torqued correctly is sufficient. if the keyway in the gear is damaged like shown, it should be replaced. it may have come loose, otherwise, it would not be damaged. if a new one is that expensive, i would try to find a good used gear
AB; Call the parts dept. at Farmland tractor supply. I think they are the vendor that has the shaft for sale on ebay. I don't know if Randy is still there. I have talked to him several times and he knows his parts. He may have the drive gear if yours needs replacing. https://www.farmlandtractor.com/
Try calling Dale at Tractor Stuff I've gotten used parts from there before,I think they may have some old Case parts laying around...
It appears to me in the gear pictures that someone (previous owner) pounded like a lunatic on it with key in keyway that should not have been there. Looks like the damage to the gear was from the pump shaft pin. It couldn't go in keyway so, it made it's own pounded out hole next to it. If that is what happened it is a wonder the thing ran at all. Get a used gear and a new PIN. IMHO !!!! Follow the timing instructions I posted earlier and you should be good to go. Hagen Tractor is another salvage operation that may have the gear. It should not be hard to find one. Another option is to buy a used pump shaft that has the woodruff key in it and use the gear you have. Edited to add ---> The gear should not have a a key in the keyway . The parts book clearly shows it in the pump shaft. Doesn't matter which model pump. They all are in the shaft.
I just bought 2 pks of 5 roll pins for the drive shafts.. I only needed 1 but they came in pkg quantity of 5.. but do to parts people mix ups, I got 2 pks of 5.!! And yes, some of the drive shafts have a roll pin and some have a key.. Why not try to “fool it” by NOT lining up the lines in the pump and moving the gear a tooth.??
Thank you for all your responses
UH OH! JESUS!!! Sounds like he owes you a replacement gear. I must be too. I've done so many of these I cant even count and I have never seen that round pin design. This really doesn't surprise me. There should be a good used gear somewhere, its just a matter of finding it. I would have thought your pump rebuilder would have said something about that type of shaft. Guess not!
I emailed Dale at tractor stuff and waiting for a reply.. The pin should have NEVER come out as its POUNDED IN.. Like I said, I have 9 of them.. And I probably have a drive shaft that has a key.?? I normally don’t sell parts but when I see someone in need as bad as u r, it tugs my heart strings.. Or it might be my neck from shaking my head in DISBELIEF.!!??
Pumpguy to the rescue !! Awesome. I wondered why the pin fell out. I figured someone put an undersize solid one in the shaft. The hole in AB's shaft may be damaged. I hope AB sends the pump to you and he has you install that keyed shaft. If it were mine, UPS would be putting it on your doorstep.
LMAO! IDE bet next months pay it has nothing to do with heart strings
IDE bet you could clean that inner gear bore, get the keyed shaft, and assemble it. It would outlive me.
FYI.. when the lines are lined up in the side window.. the drive shaft pin or key will b at 7:00 looking from/ttowards the front .. I hopes that helps a little bit
When this is resolved and Angus Beef’s 580B is thumping happily again, as I’m sure it soon will be, I’d like to see the “lessons learned”. Speaking for myself, when I work on things, I *occasionally* question my methods of work with a goal to be more organized and learn from my mistakes. If I do it right, I’ll read documents and watch the videos before starting etc. But I find my old habits die hard and since I work alone mostly (and not in a team) I don’t have the benefit of someone watching my back. Often I can’t resist the temptation to rush in and start to disassemble only to regret it later and spend a lot of time trying to retrace my steps (did this part go on this way or that way??).
I know whatcha mean.. After 30 years of rebuilding pumps u HAVE TO LEARN HOW to take notes.. Occasionally a pump will come in that nobody has ever done before.. & guess who’s assigned to do it., Me,,every damn time.!! So u break out the notebook and sharpen your crayons and go at it.. & to this day I still do it.. I ALWAYS right down which way the fittings came in.. and which side the throttle lever is..