Friend of friend did the test through a petrol co locally so I did not get much feedback on the test. They test for about 30 elements, viscosity, and water content. I would like to find some info regarding acceptable levels of certain a elements and which elements indicate what. For instance, Copper was 13ppm. What in a machine is copper and what is an acceptable level? I would think some OEMs might have some info on this.
My understanding has always been that oil analysis is best used as a relative thing. For instance, to see the trends from one oil change to thje next. Have you changed the oil since you bought it?
Yep. We pulled a sample from the old oil just see if there were any alarming numbers. So far, the oil actually looks pretty good other than .3% water in it and that does not count the pure water at the bottom that did not mix. Never the less, the old oil did not seem to cause any problems. We refilled it for a piece of mind.
Absolutely correct. You are looking for changes over times rather than absolute numbers. In fact what you are really looking for is anything that does not conform to the "normal pattern" over time. A sudden spike in copper for example. You always need an analysis of the new oil put into the system when it was last changed to serve as a baseline against which you can compare the numbers from any subsequent analysis of that oil. If you ever add any more oil at any time & for whatever reason you need a sample of that analyzed also. Elements like iron, aluminium, & copper will slowly increase over time as the internal components of the system wear. Silicon should stay almost steady if you have no leaks in the system. Remember if oil can get out, dirt's getting in. Pay particular attention to tank cap seals & tank breathers to make sure dirt is not getting in that way either. I like to see silicon in single figures, if you pushed me for a number I'd say 4-7 ppm. Your absolute upper limit for water should be 0.2%. I like to see it less than 0.05%, so your sample was out of spec by a factor of 6 from my target. Tell me what was the zinc, phosphorus, & calcium numbers in your analysis and I'll tell you how much corrosion you have going on as a result of what you thought was an insignificant amount of water in your oil. There's a reason that there was water in the bottom of the tank. Your oil was saturated with water and could not absorb any more, the rest fell to the bottom of the tank. The additive package in the oil was totally & utterly shot, guaranteed. Elemental numbers for oil in good condition and with 2000 operating hours on the oil should be APPROXIMATELY (and these numbers are not cast in stone) iron up to 20 ppm, copper up to 25, aluminium & lead up to 3, chromium 0-1. Every machine will vary slightly. If you have less than 2000 hours on the oil you have subtract whatever the new oil analysis gave for that element, then factor the actual number you have based on hours worked. Example: With 1000 hours on the oil if iron was 18ppm and in a new sample it was 3, then 18-3=15ppm @ 1000 hours. At 2000 hours (assuming linear wear rates a big IF) around 30ppm which is well over the limit of 20-ish ppm for 2000-hour oil. What you really need to look at in a hydraulic system is Particle Count. Your oil company analysis that reported the elements was measuring particles less than 6 microns in size. The ones you should really be interested in are those above 6 microns, because that's getting into the size range of the average oil film thickness in a component between one metal element and another. If a particle larger than the oil film thickness passes through between the 2 metallic elements that's where most of the wear in the system will take place. The oil sample needs to be analyzed using the "Lasernet Fines" process that measures the quantity of particles larger than 6 microns in size per ml of fluid. The results are reported as the ISO Cleanliness Code (named after the ISO Standard 4406 on which it is based) - it will look something like 18/15. The "18" is the code for the total number of particles/ml larger than 6 microns in size, "15" is the code for the total number of particle larger than 14 microns in size. There are 24 ISO Codes in total, but the ones that really interest us are ISO Code 8 (1-2 particles/ml) to ISO Code 24 (80,000-160,000 particles/ml). Every increase of 1 in the ISO Code doubles the number of particles in every ml of the sample fluid. For a hydraulic system the ISO Code should be 18/15 or better. In other words 1300-2500 particles larger than 6 microns in size, and 160-320 particles larger than 14 microns. Refill oils should de ISO Code 16/13 or better. This translates as 320-640 particles larger than 6 microns, & 40-80 particles large than 14 microns. It's very rare to see new oil from a 50gallon barrel meet ISO 16/13. New oils are generally not "clean". To illustrate how improving particle levels can help a system, consider a typical pump moving 32 gallon/min working 8 hours/day, 200 days/year. Sounds like a typical machine pump application, right ..? If the oil is ISO 19/16 (dirtier than target) the pump will move around 160 pounds of particles per year. Improve the oil condition to ISO 18/15 and the pump will be moving around 80 pounds of particles per year. Improve the oil condition to ISO 16/13 and the pump will be moving around 20 pounds of particles per year. Another "War & Peace" epic ......... sorry.
Hi ! Nige ! that is what I call an explanation !! thank you for that , I was about to ask about what we should do for oil sampling .
The issue of Contamination Control (CC) in machine systems started in earnest about 15 years back. I was fortunate to have been involved in it from the beginning. What we regard as normal practice some people have never even heard of. For example I had worked with one operation who by using CC (particle count, kidney looping, etc) improved the oil life in haul truck rear axles from 2,000 to 10,000 hours while still maintaining oil quality at more-than-acceptable levels. Also they improved the life to rebuild on differentials & final drives from 12-15,000 hours (generally to failure) to 20,000 hours (removing a running component where the cost to rebuild was a fraction of the cost to rebuild a failed component). On a big fleet that's talking telephone numbers, but the principle works equally well with a single machine. Here's the ISO Code list Question to Moderators. Should this thread not be in the Lubrication section ..?
Property Result Result Result Units Company ***** Equipment ID Catipillar Component ID Catipillar Product ID Unknown Product Grade Unknown Unit Miles/Hours Unknown Lube Miles/Hours Unknown Date Sampled Unknown11-1-11 "Vis @ 100 C, cSt" 7.44 cSt "Vis @ 40 C, cSt" 56.72 cSt Vis Index 90 No Unit Element-Fe 18 ppm Element-Cr 0 ppm Element-Mo 9 ppm Element-Al 0 ppm Element-Cu 13 ppm Element-Pb 2 ppm Element-Sn 0 ppm Element-Ag 1 ppm Element-Ni 0 ppm Element-Sb 0 ppm Element-Ti 1 ppm Element-Si 7 ppm Element-Na 23 ppm Element-B 28 ppm Element-Mg 86 ppm Element-Ca 553 ppm Element-Ba 2 ppm Element-P 360 ppm Element-Zn 415 ppm Element-K 27 ppm Element-V 2 ppm Element-Mn 1 ppm Element-Cd 0 ppm Water-ppm 3500 ppm "Ferro., D.R.-Large" 77.8 No Unit "Ferro., D.R.-Small" 38.2 No Unit "Ferro., D.R.-WPC" 116.0 0.0 0.0 No Unit "Ferro., D.R.-L/S" 2.0 #DIV/0! #DIV/0! No Unit Here is my test for review.
Doesn't mean a lot without the hours on the oil being known. Water content (0.35%) is excessive as I said before. Phoshporus & calcium numbers indicate the additive package has been depleted by water contamination as I suspected earlier. No Particle Count in that list unfortunately. Can you find out if they did one and if so post the results ..?
If you have the model of the machine your testing they should have given you a baseline or acceptable numbers for that perticular machine or component along with the hours on the oil, say for example if the oil came out of a final dirve on a dozer and had 1000 hours on it, they should have given you a range it should be in for metal wear, was the sample flagged for copper wear? I do a lot of sampling on a lot of different machines and components and for me personally I look at the hours, what kind of oil and whats flagged for wear on the reports, if its within range I don't get too excited, but also look at trends in samples as time goes by, when they hit a certain level or my drain intervals are to be shortened is when I start to look closer, all components wear over time and with age and hours, its just a matter of looking for whats going to happen shortly and if I want to keep that machine or plan to repair it, if I'm wanting to upgrade that machine I look to do it before a failure occurs, if I"m going to keep it, it helps plan for expected repairs rather than a total surpise. If my samples come back on a final dirve and they are trending towards a failure, I can plan on doing a findal drive rather than have it fail on the a jobsite far from the shop. I use sampling to detmine what needs repair ahead of time or to extend drain intervals, with hydrualics its usually water contamination that does in the oil, not wear metals, and if its got water in it from condensation then I want it out of the system right now, not in 500 hours with a normal drain, so every time we change engine oil we sample the hydrualics as well to see how its doing and to look for water contamination. For some reason my new holland skid loaders have a condensation problem in the hydraulcs and we are constantly changing that oil to prevent failures, thats what I use oil sampling for the most, not so much to see what just one sample looks like, one sample alone doens't tell me much, I want to know over time and plenty of samples what things look like.
Randy, what values do you see typically for water in your hydraulic oil samples..? Or maybe what sort of values would have you reaching for the wrenches and planning an oil change ..? If you look at the original post the poster stated that he'd had the sample analyzed at an oil company. I guess that's why it was an elemental analysis only and did not include a Particle Count. Also I would imagine the oil company would have had no-one capable of interpreting the results like they would have done if the sample went to an equipment dealer laboratory. They just gave him the raw data.
Yes, I think this topic would be better served in the Lubrication Forum. Very good information.
The dealership doesn't generally do the sampling anyhow, I've done sampling at dealerships, by oil companies and everywhere in between and they all went to the same lab in the end, deeres, and also case and the oil company that I get the samples from all go to the same lab, I know I've called for results and the same person answered the phone, I have an account there and when I put on the samples to call me she's the one to call, that way if I run out of sample bottles while away from home doing a prebuy on any machine I slip by case and get some more, they are the cheapest around for sample bottles and since they go to same lab, it makes no difference, I just wirte on the bottles its a prebuy and to call me with the results. As for when to grab the wrenches or change oil, I always ask to have the samples compared to a baseline for wear metals on a sample for that machine or component, all they need is the hours and oil type and also the machine or componenet its from. If any of those are an unknown, like on a prebuy, I put down prebuy and then they will tell me the oil quality, if its a good quality oil, the right oil in the first place, and how many hours a sample of its type would normally have on it. Say for example a dozer I did this summer on a prebuy that had bad final drives, the sample was so bad on both final drives it was beyond a red flag, the oil in a normal final drive would have had something like in excess of 5000 hours on it to get contaminated like that, well now if thats the case I have two choices, either nobody ever took care of the machine to change any oils or the finals are bad, either way its not looking like I'd buy the machine, now to call the prior owner, and he claimed the oils been changed, so the finals are bad if he's telling the truth and I walked away, either way I was walking away. As to when I get excited about samples is when I look at the drain interval recommendation, if my drain is shortened, I start to raise an eyebrow somewhat, if its been lengened I don't worry much or if I'm supposed to resample I look closer still. As to when to grab wrenches, it depends on what metals are high, and what the component is, also how many hours are on the oil and where it came from, say an engine that has 200 hours on the oil and I'm supposed to maintain current drain, I don't worry much, if it has 25 hours on it like I had a tractor that the drian interval was recommended at 25 hours, I'm beyond concerned, its got major problems, and now to decide do I keep the tractor or trade it off before an engine failure and spending the money, I traded it off and updated the tractor. As for hydraulics and water, thats simple basically if its got any water in the sample we change oil, its only going to get more condensation in it so why not just change it and get it over with, but again we check the hydraulics every engine oil change, so instead of waiting until the oil has 1000 hours on it we do it every 100 and can tell if its at 700 hours and now has water in it we just change it at 700 hours rather than waiting until the 1000 hour recommendation. As for other components, its a toss up on time we have available and also money, I had a dozer several years ago that was having metal contamination in the transmission sample, it was coming from bearings and we knew it was going to need a rebuild, so it wasn't a shock to me that on the last day of the season it went down with a bearing that had gone out, it didn't make it to the end of the season but we still had allloted the money for a complete rebuild and there was room in the shop for it on the day it went down, that dozer I wanted to keep, if not we would have traded it off at the start of the season before it showed any signs of transmission problems, but we had plenty of sampling history to show a trend in wear metal levels. It also depends on where the component is located on the machine if its a simple fix say an external hydrualic pump that going bad we just change them out on a rainy day and change the oil and run a refilter cart on the oil a while trying to clean up the system and put it back in service without a failure or downtime, if its not an easy to access component we try to keep the machine out of some god forsaken area where it might go down and have to figure out how to get the repair done if we don't have time to do it beforehand. To me personally the numbers shown don't mean much to me as the owner of a machine, I want a comparision and recommendaiton on the unit for total hours on the machine and hours on the oil and what kind of oil it is and also a drain interval recommendaiton, and to have higher wear metals flagged, now are they slightly high, medium, or set off a red flag for excessive wear metals for that perticular components, if its a hydrualic pump 25 of copper might be high if its a transmission with a lot of copper wear washers or bearings in it that might be considered very low. Aslo when was the sample taken, sucked out as it sat there before ever being run, pulled from the bottom before being run, run first and then pulled, it all makes a difference as to how the oil was mixed and allowed to settle out wear metals or was it all stirred up so to speak so it was a comparison and uniform sample, again it makes a difference. If its flagged for high wear metals I'd immediately resample the machine or component and send it in again to see if it was a fluke or it came back again the same, I've had it before that it was fluke in the samlpe and everything was just fine, expecially with water or antifreeze contamination in engines, if you have anything on your hands and accidentally touch the inside of the lid on the sample bottle it'll show as a bad sample and be red flagged immediately, so we do a double check just to be sure on any red flagged component before grabbing wreches and expecting a complete componenet failure and let the machine sit till the second sample comes back. On engines we look at about four things, water, fuel dilution, wear metals and drain interval, I don't get too hung up on the rest, those things tell me mainly what I want to know, on hydraulics we look for excessive wear metals and also water contamination, the rest don't excite me much, on gear boxes, gear pumps, finals, transmissions and things like that we try to keep it simple and look for anything flagged for wear metals and see how high they are and keep an eye on those metals in the future to establish a baseline to watch and monitor, the rest is a lot of excess data to me and gets too confusing, I try to keep things simple as possible. To me it makes no difference where you get the samples from if they don't give me that info I'd look elsewhere for some that do, you can request about anything on them you want most don't know that but the labs don't really care who it came from just whats requested that they do. If your thinking since its from an oil company they won't give drain recommendaitons that are real, then either find a different oil company or sampling place or whatever, but mine come from an oil company and I've always gotten drain interval recommendations that are accurate, its not like every time a sample comes back and its from an oil company they recommend shorter drain intervals, thats not what I've found anyhow, the oil company has literally nothing to do with the testing, they just hire out the sampling analysis done, none do it in house anyhow and most times the oil company doens't even know what the recommendaitons are that come to you and really don't care unless its a warrenty issue on a machine that they are invovled in. We could have an entire section dedicated to complaints about equipment manufacturers demanding you use their oil or the warrenty is voided thing, but for now I'll assume its not a warrented machine we are sampling so it won't matter much on liability issues. If you hadn't figured it out I try to keep things simple yet effective, I want to know whats going on but don't worry about micro managing the little things, like the trace minerals and things like that, they mean very little to me for sampling purposes, I look at the higher dollar things, like wear metals and other contaminants lile water, fuel and dirt, if the oil needs to be changed and why or how often, everything wears out its just a matter of how fast and when, and what speeds it up and how to slow it down, its pretty simple and all I want to do is know where the component is in relationship to worn out and in need of replacement, everything else is just a lot of information overload to me.
We generally sample hydraulics every 250 hours for peace of mind, simply because there can be loads of expensive components in a hydraulic system that can be trashed by the presence of particles, wear metals, or water, or even a combination of all three. The reason I was asking particularly about water (in any type of oil, but hydraulics in particular) is that most for most oil analysis laboratories they report the water as a simple Go/No-Go system. The sample is either positive for water or it's negative. Often this is because their equipment gives them only that information. I would be really interested to know what level of ppm or % of water a sample being analyzed at your lab has to have before it generates a "positive" result for water, if that's in fact how they do it. Or do they actually give you a water number in ppm or % in their analysis ...?
I believe its a simple positive or negative on water in hydraulics, not sure on what percent or parts per million it takes to test a positive, but in hydraulics any water is too much so we use that positive as time to change the oil, with engines we resample them to be sure, but not in hydraulics.
If the lab you send your samples to is using a simple positive/negative test for water in all probability they are using what's known as the Crackle Test. Basically a few drops of of the oil sample are dropped on to a heated plate. If all you get is oil smoke then the test result is negative, if the sample "crackles" as the water in it boils off then you get a positive result for water. It may surprise you to learn that to register a positive result for water in hydraulic oil using the crackle test you need around 500ppm of water (or 0.05% by weight) in the the sample, with certain heavier oils it's even more than that. The lab we use actually measures the ppm of water in the sample. Our maximum limit for water before we plan an oil change is 100ppm or 0.01% by weight - less than 1/5th of the value most oil labs would be able to detect using the crackle test. The reason we use 100ppm as a limit is that we have discovered that water content starting around the 200-300ppm mark can cause major leaching issues in oil that works around the 170-200 DegF temperature range, typical of most implement hydraulic systems. Amongst other things it leaches certain metal elements out of things like the end caps of oil filter elements and the tubes of hydraulic oil coolers, thus leading you to believe that you have a wear issue in the system when in actual fact the root cause of the problem is that you have a water issue.
I am very impressed! you guy's really know your stuff. Thought I was back in my anual contamination control class! Great info for every one to have. The cleaner it is the longer it last. Take care of your money makers fellas.
Just to show how seriously the lubricant manufacturers/suppliers take the subject of Contamination Control, and freely admit that their new lubricants in bulk or in whatever type of drum you can think of are not as clean as we need to make machine components live a long healthy life, our lube supplier who has just been awarded a new contract for supply of fuel & lubricants is throwing a 6-figure US$ sum into our Maintenance budget to be spent specifically on Contamination Control machinery like kidney-loop machines, and filtration systems for our bulk oil tanks, etc. My personal target is that I would like hydraulic oil coming out of the workshop PM bay lube lines at around ISO 13/10 & power train oils at ISO 14/11 or better.
Reading this thread, Should I be looking for higher levels of Zinc and Phosphorous as higher levels of anti wear addittives? All else being acceptable in the trend analysis, would lower levels of P and ZN indicate my hydraulic oil is depleated? Thanks guys.
You will have to wait for a better answer than mine from one of the more learned men who we have learned so much from by reading their posts above. But I think I can say that a reference to the "base line" of the oil when it was new, together with observance of the "trend" in your P and Zn figures will give some of the answer. I would just like to add (even though it was briefly touched on by others) that it's important to realise the difference between the focus of an oil company's test results and an oil analysis company's test results. The oil company is most interested in how their product is holding up, while the analysis company will tell you whats really going on. Mine even gives me a graph of trends and a quick overview. On the other hand, when I wanted to extend my oil change period to 30,000Km I sent a sample to the oil manufacturer (Castrol) for their opinion and they were more interested in how much of their additive package was left.
Rearrange these words into a well known phrase or saying ...... head, nail, hit ......... Spot on. Start with the ppm of Zn, P, etc in a sample of new oil. That's your baseline, then trend it from there. Every oil is different to a certain degree. If you change oil brands you have to start again with a sample of oil from your new supplier. Never assume that just because one supplier says their oil is the equivalent of an oil from another supplier does NOT mean the oils are identical in additive package composition. if you are talking about hydraulic or drive train oils personally I would put Silicon (dirt) and Particle Count (ISO Code) at the top of my list of things to trend before looking at the additive package. Dirt and the wear it generates are my enemy, therefore I want to keep a close eye on it. I also want to make sure that there are the absolute minimum levels of dirt in my new oils. Remember new oils are not guaranteed to be "clean" even though they may look it. It's only when you get into the situation of wanting to extend the oil life in a compartment by a factor of say 4 or more (manufacturer's recommended 2000 hour change intervals to 8-10,000 hours maybe) that you need to get worried about additive package depletion. On my last job we took rear axle oil life from 2k to 10k and could have gone even more than that without compromising oil condition but we were pulling diffs & finals at 20k so we decided it wasn't worth taking the oil past 10k. Therefore 2 fills of oil took us from new to component overhaul. Again spot on.......... only a good oil analysis lab will give you the full story and interpret the raw numbers on the analysis report. That's what you pay them for.
Your opinion on this analysis Hi guys, Quite interesting thread with valuable info. Reading it makes me think I should worry big time about the analysis I just had done, more specifically the count on copper which seem more than high if I understood all this correctly. The weird thing is that the Cat lab does not seem be worried and simply indicate to have the oil re-analysed at regular sampling interval Here is a copy/paste of the results of my hydraulic system on excavator Hyundai 210LC-7. Any ideas/recommendations would be greatly appreciated before I decide to flush it all. Altough the previous owner analysis says he changed the oil and filters, I suspect he did not. SAMPLE LABEL NUM : EXT WARR NUMBER : 46 1 COMP SERIAL NUM : HYDRAULIC SYSTEM HYUNDAI 210LC_HYUNDAI FLUID BRAND/WEIGHT : SHOP JOB NUM : EXT WARR EXPIRE DATE : COMPARTMENT MODEL : COMP MANUFACTURER SAMPLE TYPE: OIL FLUID TYPE : LAB CONTROL NUMBER SAMPLE DATE PROCESS DATE EQUIPMENT METER METER ON FLUID FLUID CHANGED MAKE UP FLUID MAKE UP FLUID UNITS FILTER CHANGED **My sample** N050-42075-0087 3/13/12 4160 HR PARTICLE COUNT IS HIGH FOR SMALL PARTICLES. COPPER RATE INCREASED. OTHER READINGS APPEAR TO BE NORMAL. INSPECT FILTERS FOR METAL OR OTHERS VISIBLES PARTICLES. CONTINUE NORMALLY SCHEDULED SAMPLING Monitor Compartment 3/15/12 No No **Previous Owner sample*** N050-39210-0002 7/15/09 2354.02 HR 2354.02 HR TRACE D'EAU DETECTEE. PEUT ETRE CAUSE PAR LA CONDENSATION. FORTE AUGMENTATION DU CUIVRE SEULEMENT PEUT INDIQUER UN LESSIVAGE DU SYSTEME DE REFROIDISSEMENT ET NON UNE USURE ANORMALE DES COMPOSANT EN BRONZE/CUIVRE. LES AUTRES RESULTATS SEMBLENT NORMAUX. INSPECTEZ LES FILTRES POUR DEBRIS OU TOUTE PARTICULES VISIBLES. REECHANTILLONNEZ DANS 500 HEURES. Monitor Compartment 7/29/09 Yes Yes Wear Metals (ppm) Cu Fe Cr Al Pb Sn Si Na K B Mo Ni Ag Ti Mn Cd Ca Mg Zn P Ba N050-42075-0087 361 15 1 5 1 0 9 0 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 1053 6 561 538 0 N050-39210-0002 343 15 0 2 1 0 9 5 2 2 1 0 1499 6 745 676 Oil Condition / Particle Count (ct/ml) ST OXI NIT SUL W A V40 ISO 4μ 6μ 14μ 21μ 38μ 50μ 70μ N050-42075-0087 0 14 4 23 N N 42.1 23/19/13 46296 2523 49 25 10 5 2 N050-39210-0002 0 16 4 25 T N 43.5 Ag = Silver, Al = Aluminum, B = Boron, Ca = Calcium, Cr = Chromium, Cu = Copper, Fe = Iron, P = Phosphorus, K = Potassium, Mg = Magnesium, Mo = Molybdenum, Na = Sodium, Ni = Nickel, Pb = Lead, Si = Silicon, Sn = Tin, V = Vanadium, Zn = Zinc, A = Antifreeze, F = Fuel, W = Water, P = Positive, N = Negative, T = Trace, E = Excessive, NIT = Nitration, OXI = Oxidation, ST = Soot, SUL = Sulfation, ISO = ISO Rating, PFC = Percent Fuel Content, PQI = Particle Quantifying index , NaW = Salt Water, FL Pt = Flash Point, TAN = Total Acid Number, TBN = Total Base Number, H2O = Karl Fisher result, V100 = Viscosity@100C, V40 = Viscosity@40C Notice: This analysis is intended as an aid in predicting mechanical wear. No
Hmm It's not coming out the way it should... here it is, manually done First number is my recent analysis the 2nd one is the previous owner analysis. Wear metals(ppm) Cu: 361 - 343 Fe: 15 - 15 Cr: 1 - 0 Al: 5 - 2 Pb: 1 - 1 Sn: 0 - 0 Si: 9 - 9 Na: 0 - 5 K: 2 - 2 B: 1 - 2 Mo: 1 - 1 Ni: 0 - 0 Ag: 0 Ti: 0 Mn: 0 Cd: 1 Ca: 1053 - 1499 Mg: 6 - 6 Zn: 561 - 745 P: 538 - 676 Ba: 0 Oil condition particle count ST: 0 - 0 OXI: 14 - 16 NIT: 4 - 4 SUL: 23 -25 W: N - T A: N - N V40: 42.1 - 43.5 ISO: 23/19/13 4µ: 46296 6µ: 2523 14µ: 49 21µ: 25 38µ: 10 50µ: 5 70µ: 2
I take it this is a Hyundai excavator hydraulic system, correct..? Oil brand & type..? How many operating hours on the oil since it was last changed when you pulled you sample for analysis..? How many operating hours on the oil at the time it was last analyzed by the previous owner..? Were the filters changed at the time the last sample (or the previous one) was taken..? I fail to see why they comment on Particle Count. The target for a hydraulic system is 18/15. Your is currently 19/13, however the 19 on your analysis is only just over the limit from being ISO 18 (2500 particles). So I would not worry about that too much. Particles are not silicon (dirt) so what is they..? Non-metallic particles probably. None of the other metals are significantly up over the previous sample analysis either. Maybe it might be worth putting a kidney loop machine with a really fine filter (2-micron or less) on the hydraulic tank and see if you can get the Particle Count of the 6-micron particles down a bit. Maybe run the dialysis machine for an hour and then start the machine up and cycle the cylinders a couple of times, also run the travel motors and the swing function. Then put the dialysis machine back on the tank for another hour or so. If you change the oil for new first of all you will not get all the old oil out and second neither can you guarantee the new oil will be "clean" regarding Particle Count. The high copper could just be a function of the Hitachi hydraulic system but I have no experience on this particular model therefore I can't say for certain whether it is or not. What type of coolant or anti-freeze are you using..? The sodium has jumped from 0 to 5 and this could be a sign of coolant in the oil if you are using conventional anti-freeze. Coolant in the oil will give you high copper due to leaching of the cooler core if it has copper tubes. However your sample tested negative for water, all that means it that it was less than the lab's detection level, not necessarily that there was no water at all in the sample.
Hi Nige, Yes, Hyundai Hydraulic system. I can't tell the oil brand and type that was in there, I have no history on the machine since I bought it at an auction. The funny thing is that it's a coincidence that the Cat lab I sent it to had a previous analysis on file for that serial # so I'm just lucky to find that bit of history. If the info from previous owner is correct - which really I have no ways to find out - the oil from my sample should have just under 2000 hrs of operation and his sample would have been done at about 2354 hrs. His analysis says he changed the oil and filters at the time of taking the sample, but can't confirm. Again for the coolant I can't say what type it is but you got those numbers reversed, his analysis was 5 on sodium and mine is 0 and the comments in French from his analysis says that the high copper could be due to a flush of the coolant system. You're absolutely right about changing the oil will not guarantee anything so what I think I'll do is just take another sample in about 250hrs and see if copper keeps going up abnormally. Thanks for your reply
Apologies I got the Sodium mixed up. It's gone down not up. I agree with you that there seems nothing really to worry about. If you're not sure about filter change history then throw a replacement filter or filters in it just to be on the safe side, although TBH the Particle Count at the 4-micron level is unlikely to be affected by changing the filter because even hydraulic filter usually do not filter down to that level. When you pul the old filters cut them open carefully and check for any chunky metal particles trapped in the filter media.
Do you use a sampling valve, or just go in through the plug when you take your samples. It would seem that since contamination is such a large concern, going through just the plug could add more containment into the system.
As a policy live sampling via a sample valve is always the preferred method of sampling. A suction pump is 2nd best. NEVER EVER pull a sample from the drain plug while you're draining the oil.
Hi, Nige. After reviewing all the comments on this thread. I would like to know more about how does water contamination occurs on hydraulic system. Most of my machine sustains water corrosion on my cylinders and gluey material around that part.
IMHO water entry into a hydraulic system is dependent on the make & model of the machine in question and specifically the design of the hydraulic tank and tank breather. Usually the entry is via the tank somewhere. Also it depends a lot on climate, I see you are in Malaysia so I can assume your climate is hot & humid, correct..?
Hi Nige. I'm glad you showed up, every time you talk about oil or filter carts I learn something. Have you ever thought about writing a ebook on this subject?
yes, the breather is just on the hydraulic tank's cap and there is just small holes without any filter or mesh to protect it from contamination. Edited: By the way, as long as the hydraulic oil ISO grading is working within its working tolerance temperature. The hydraulic oil wear/degrade rate wont be effect by the difference in ambient temperature? because i'm using hydraulic oils from my supplier in itali, even thou the ISO grade is same but the colour is different between the hydraulic oils from itali and malaysia. Most of the contamination i suffer is water contamination..
In that case it sounds like the water is probably entering via the breather. Maybe some out of the box thinking is needed to improve it to prevent said water entry. Can you post some photos showing what the top of the tank looks like and give some details of the machine..? Regarding hydraulic oil, what are you using at the moment and what does the machine service manual recommend..? I would not have thought where the oil was bought from (Italy or Malaysia) would have any effect so long as it was good quality oil from a recognised supplier. Colour is most likely a dye added by the oil manufacturer to differentiate his product from other brands.
This is the hydraulic schematic for my machine, https://www.dropbox.com/s/5vybd9ph89oli8m/718%20Hydraulic%20Diagram.JPG?dl=0 The hydraulic oil we use manufacturer supplied ISO 46 during installation, during the first maintenance we will use ISO 68. The hydraulic oil changewill be in 5 year intervals, and we are changing it yearly... usually we will pump out the hydraulic oils from the tanks, because the system is floor mounted power pack. Some of them using console panel where it have holes linked to manholes, this will trap more moisture into hydraulic tank i suppose.. is there any way to reduce/stops the moisture from getting into my hydraulic systems? yesterday i searched some info and i found this hygroscopic breather, deliquescent breather. is there any lesser economic impact solution, if required to installed in every machine it will costs alot.
We use these on all of our cranes hydraulics (barge mounted and shoreside) ! Works great based on oil analysis
We use these on all of our cranes hydraulics (barge mounted and shoreside) ! Works great based on oil analysis. http://www.drytechinc.com/index.php http://www.drytechinc.com/ZEOZORB-series-desiccant-breathers.html