Hello HEF team, I've bitten the bullet and joined up after spending what seems like years reading posts on HEF, there's so much good information on here, and I appreciate the gurus of earthmoving sharing their knowledge. Anyway, I'm in the process of getting a front tilting dozer blade built for a Series One 12H, which is 2500mm wide and running 14.00 x 24's. There's a lot of scrub where we are, mostly multi stemmed woody shrubs to 12' high, plus the odd dead tree to 20' high (fallen and standing). A front blade is going to save a lot of time by not having to go around the roads with a loader or dozer beforehand, and hopefully prevent a few flat tyres. I can choose any width between 2500mm and 2750mm for the front blade for the same price, or stick with 2500mm and have bolt on extensions made up for $300AUD a side. My question is this: do I stick with a blade width that matches the tyre width (2500mm), or should I go a little wider to prevent scrub, stumps, etc that rolls off the end of the blade damaging the sidewalls of the front tyres? To confuse the issue further, I'm thinking about maybe fitting 17.5 x 25's one day, as we have a lot of dry sand to negotiate, but I have conflicting advice as to whether underinflated (say 30PSI) 14.00 x 24's or 17.5 x 25's would be better on dry sand. Of course 17.5 x 25's make the width over the tyres higher, but by how much? Thanks in advance for any feedback. Cheers, Scrub Basher.
Regarding your blade, I would say that you need an absolute minimum of 100-150mm on each side past the outside edge of the tyres to protect the tyre sidewalls from what's falling off the blade, because unless I'm mistaken on the setup the blade is going to be well ahead of the front wheels. Personally I would go for more than that. That would give you a total width of somewhere between 2700-2800 overall as a minimum. If you go less than that you run the risk of tearing up tyres, especially if you happen to be steering and catch something. It doesn't take much of a turn angle on the front wheels to significantly increase your 2500 measurement. Regarding the tyres, you could run the narrow-base 14.00x25 tyres almost flat and they still would not give the ground footprint that a correctly-inflated 17.5x25 wide base will give you. If you are thinking of switching to wide base tyres then plan for that eventuality from the start when building your blade.
G'day Nige, Thanks for your reply, I have read many of your posts, I'm honoured that you've replied to mine! Your feedback is along the lines of what I've been thinking. I have discussed front blades with an operator that has been running them for a long time, initially a straight blade, then a tilting blade on his next machine. His recommendation was go for the tilting option for added usefulness and versatility, but then he suggested that I don't go any wider than the width over the tyres, which came as a surprise. His reasoning was that a wider blade would be more likely to break if it hit something solid on the end, and it might be a hassle around gateways, cattle grids etc (but there again our dozer is 10' + end bits and I'm not knocking gates over with it). Given that we have a dozer (Komatsu D63E-1), I'm not going to be pulling on serious dozing jobs with the 12H, so any big hits won't be intentional. Another bloke I know suggested 14.00 x 24's @ 30PSI for dry sand applications as their footprint grows longer as they are deflated, which was not what I expected either. I do know the 14.00 x 24 cross plies on our old Galion C160 are a pain in dry sand, but I suspect that 14.00 x 24 radials would be a big step up in the traction stakes, just for starters. So, I'm leaning towards 2750mm blade width at this stage. Hopefully there might be some more feedback which will add to the case for the wider blade. Cheers, Scrub Basher.
Go with Niges post sure as your your tyre track wont stay in line all the time turning , or slightly off line , 14.00 tyres for sure
As far as I'm concerned you have to go at least a tad wider than the outside of the front tyres with the blade because if you don't then the windrows created by the material spilling off the edges of the blade will fall back inwards to a certain extent. This means the outside edges of the front tyres are going to be permanently running on top of the windrows which will lead to the front of the machine bouncing up and down unless the windrow is of a completely consistent height which is unlikely. At least that's what I think, others may differ. There will be a big difference in sidewall flex, and therefore contact patch, between a 14.00x25 bias ply and a 14.00R25 radial. I would suspect that even with pressures dropped dangerously low the bias ply would still not have as big a contact area as the radial and is going to get hot right quick if you run it at any speed for more than a few minutes. If you are going to be spending a significant percentage of time working in dry sand IMHO you would be better off going for the wide-base tyres right from the start and tailoring the width of the blade to suit.
G'day Pedrocar, Are you saying the 14.00's are a better bet than 17.5's in dry sand? Cheers, Scrub Basher.
Yer narrow track compared to 17.5s are good but your concerns with tyre damage would see me running 14.00 radials give good traction or if lots of stakes a heavy ply cross ply like yokohama y67 with steel breakers good tyres
Hello again Nige, Thanks for the follow up. I had considered the inside edge of the windrow off the front blade slumping towards the sidewalls, but not to the extent of giving the front end a rough ride. Good point. One complicating factor is that 2500mm is the widest you can go before becoming a wide load around these parts (not that I plan to float the machine more than once in a blue moon). Perhaps the base blade @ 2500mm + bolt on extensions is the way to go. I agree with your summation about bias ply vs. radial tyres. All our bias ply tyres run "proper" pressures (low pressures + summer time heat = death to tyres around here), but I see Council graders running 14.00 x 24 radials with a big bulge in the sidewall at the bottom of the tyre. Beats me how they don't destroy tyres. As for putting 17.5 x 25's on the 12H, it's wearing 14.00 x 24's now and hasn't arrived yet (I purchased online and don't even know if it's wearing radials or bias plies). I'm looking around for a set of 17.5 x 25 rims now. Cheers, Scrub Basher.
Also depends on size of your blade as to clearance of winrow 14.00 s are taller than 17.5s and you will find 17.5s harder to turn in sand we work a lot in rail ballast , cant walk on the crap 14.00s do the job i have 2 sets of 17.5 if interested
Also depends on size of your blade as to clearance of windrow 14.00 s are taller than 17.5s and you will find 17.5s harder to turn in sand we work a lot in rail ballast , cant walk on the crap 14.00s do the job i have 2 sets of 17.5s if interested
Thanks Pedrocar, I'll give the 14.00 x 24's on the 12H every opportunity to impress (or otherwise) when I get the machine working. I'm hoping it's wearing radials. I can say from experience that 14.00 x 24 bias plies @ 40PSI on the good old Galion C160 with stick shift and "240" airconditioning (two windows and forty degrees) aren't much chop in dry sand - not that the 17.5 x 25's on the loader are much better - but I'm comparing apples with oranges now. The cost of a set of 17.5 x 25 tyres & rims is a bit off-putting - I'd like to find a secondhand set one day. Cheers, Scrub Basher.
G'day again Pedrocar, We're in together, so to speak. Yes, I could be interested in a set of rims & tyres for the 12H if the 14.00 x 24's don't work out. I guess you must be running a 12H or 140H? Which end of Australia are you located? Cheers, Scrub Basher.
I'm not sure I understand you 100%. Do you need an oversize permit for anything over 2500 wide to run on the road under its own power or for a load over 2500 wide when it's on a float, or both..? If the answer is both then a 2500-wide blade plus bolt-on extensions would be the obvious way to go, if it's only when the machine is on the back of a float the decision is not so clear cut. Regarding the bulges in the sidewalls of the radial grader tyres that's purely down to sidewall thickness. The bias ply tyre will have somewhere around 16 plies of nylon or whatever in the sidewall making it thick and stiff. It's the fretting of the plies against one another that is responsible for causing most of the heating in a tyre. The radial has a single wire or fabric belt which is much thinner and therefore more flexible and that's why a) radial tyre sidewalls bulge and b) they don't get anywhere near as hot when run at relatively high speeds for long periods. If your machine is going to run a lot of mileage between jobs at high-ish speeds I can't see how you can get by with bias ply tyres because they ought to be failing regularly due to heat separation. Whether you simply go with 14.00R24 on the existing rims or upgrade to wide-base rims with 17.5R25 on them is up to you.
G'day Nige, We definitely need an oversize permit for anything over 2500mm wide on a float, as for running/working on the road under it's own power I suspect the requirements are similar (an "oversize" sign, amber rotating beacon, clearance lights and daylight travel only). I'm trying to find out from the registration mob on the phone, but I seem to be on permanent hold. Regardless, the requirements aren't particularly onerous until the width exceeds 3500mm, and I'm definitely not going that wide. Our 12H won't be running long distances between jobs and I'm not in the habit of lowering pressures in the bias plies on the old Galion C160 due to the risks you outline above, so if the 12H is running bias plies and doesn't go through dry sand any better than the Galion, then I'd look at fitting 14.00R24's or shell out for 17.5 x 25 rims plus tyres. The government machines running radials can get away with it because they're operating in a tyre friendly environment away from trees, stumps and sticks, unlike my application. When we destroy a radial it's almost always due to something damaging a sidewall, so invariably we run them at high pressures, which of course somewhat negates the benefit of running a radial in the first place. Thanks for your advice. Cheers, Scrub Basher.
17.5's will put you around 2700mm which to be legal on road requires reflective oversize signs / banners as well as beacons. I have even seen some with flags as well. You may need a permit as well as your rego depending on what type of road you want to work/ travel on. Might make a 2500 blade awkward too.
G'day Scrub Basher I think it is going to be difficult to get a perfect combination to satisfy all your requirements, whatever you decide is going to be something of a compromise. A blade wide enough to protect your tyres when turning etc. would have to be around 3000 wide, which would be much too cumbersome in the bush. Front blades are worth their weight in gold to push timber aside, push dirt into washaways allowing you to cross, knocking down piles of gravel, that sort of thing. But you'll find you won't be grading with it for long distances, so I wouldn't be too concerned with material flowing around the ends of it. This blade is only just wider than the tyres and I've honestly had no desire for it to be any wider. Radials will be better in sand, but something like these better in the bush. They are 24 Kevlar ply, bead to bead, and I wore this set out without a single puncture. Where are you having your blade made? Cheers, Greg
Greetings Spanner, Thanks for that. I figured that 17.5's would put the overall width at around the 2700mm mark after speaking to a mate who is running them on a 12H today, he indicated that the offset of the 17.5 rims put all the extra rubber of the 17.5's out wider, from there I went walkabout with a tape measure to visit the old Galion and the Loader. I've decided on 2750mm for the blade, given that I'm more worried about scrub than the slim possibility that I'll be on public roads...I'll sort that out if and when I have to. Another bloke confirmed what you said about banners and beacons, which isn't an issue, and I'd need a 12 month permit if I was working on public roads. The hard-to-comply-with conditions I was imagining haven't eventuated. Regards, Scrub Basher.
I've only seen IPS gear advertised, not in the flesh, but it looks very good. I'll be looking for a rake to put on a loader shortly, at this stage it looks to be a toss up between them and Gessner. Both very competitively priced. I did have the 12G advertised online, briefly, a couple of years ago. Since decided to keep it solely for bush work and our newer machine for road work.
Hi Greg, The Boss at IPS has Gessner heritage, and has just struck out on his own. You're right about their pricing, IPS was a clear winner there. They're building a folding rake for a D6C at the moment, I'm looking forward to seeing some photos as our Komatsu D63E-1 is the same size. I saw your 12G advertised, nearly rang you about it! Cheers, Scrub Basher.
Hi were in WA - we run G &H all rims interchange
No worries Pedrocar. I'm in western NSW. I'll see how the 14.00's go and if I spend too much time embedded in a sandhill we might have to have a chat about those 17.5's. I'm guessing you're in iron ore country? Cheers, Scrub Basher.
Goldfields
:thumbsup
Can you make a photo from the grader when your front blade is ready?
No problem Graderfan, It's going to be about a month from now, or a bit more, until the blade is built, delivered and fitted. I hope it's worth the wait! Cheers, Scrub Basher.
Did you get your blade Scrub Basher? I think I saw it, partially built, a few months ago.
Hiya Queenslander, Yes, just last week! There were holdups with IPS moving premises and busy with other jobs, and we were too wet to go grading in any case. Looks good...strong, well built, although it is still strapped to a pallet and I've just received a quote to mount it this morning. $4K. Ouch. Cheers, Scrub Basher.
Sorry, only three years late! Wouldn't be without the front blade. Good heavy build, tilts as well. A tad disappointed with the placement of the hydraulic hoses, but that could be fixed.
Our machine runs 17.5 tires. Our blade is a modified tractor blade. It's 8ft. I have tire overhang. In some situations I wish it were wider. Then I get into a ditching situation and am glad it doesn't extend past my front tires. Totally depends on the work being done. I rarely take it off. Usually to switch to snowplow. In the beginning I built it to angle. Didn't like it because it was too far forward of my front tires. Got in the way a lot. So I modified it to only be straight. For what I do I like it better that way. It's as close to my front tires as is possible.
G’day Scrub Basher Good to hear that your blade is working well. It seems that my fears about old mate going belly up were well founded. Luckily, I had my rake by then and it is also well built and working fine.
Sweet looking machine.
Hi Richard, I'm pretty happy with the width of the blade. I thought I'd end up taking out gate posts, etc but haven't done any damage to anything yet. It's really handy in scrub, I run along in a low gear with it just off the ground to get rid of any tyre killers and grade at the same time. Yours does look further forward than mine is.
Ah that's interesting. There was a problem with the lift cylinder when the blade was mounted - the boss was cracked, necessitating disassembly and welding. Old mate was going to make good on the cost of the repair and wanted a video of the blade in action, then he dropped off the radar.