Hey folks, new guy here. I just bought a house with 20 acres of woods that needs some serious lookin-after. The terrain is mostly hills and valleys with some streams here and there. Ill be maintaining a few old logging roads, controlling erosion, and doing some hardcore landscaping and I need some advice. What kind of dozer do ya'll recommend? Im leaning towards a small to medium size tracked dozer with a 6 way blade that will be living at my residence and not going anywhere else. I require something in the $5k-15k price range that is very reliable and easy to work on myself and has great parts availability. I know that's asking a lot of a dozer in that price range but there must be a few models meeting that criteria. What do you think?
A nice D4 might fill the bill if no big (+6IN) trees. May have to look a while at auctions, ect.
D31e-20 some of these are in your price range, mine was just slightly above
Take look at the johndeere 450c. I see them all the time for $10k-$20k In good shape. I've spent some time on a couple of them scraping roads and never had any issues with them.
I like the case 450 and 550 series dozers I had a 450a for a while and never had trouble getting parts. If I could get one now I would love a Case 550g there going for about 20 k around here. I see 450 b & c around 10-15k
Were there any dozers designed specifically for working in the woods, ie: lower center of gravity, good balance of size vs power? What should I look for in a new-to-me dozer? Im new to this and have no idea where to start? Any huge red-flags (money pitfalls) to avoid mechanically?
What is a safe hour range for a dozer in this price range?
Yeah, a cheap dozer! There is no "safe hour range" or "dependable model". When you're looking at decades old, complex machines like dozers, there's no shortcuts. Get to know the machine before you buy it, or you will after you buy it. Best place to start would be to read this forum until you get a sense for what you understand, and what you don't know.
Delmer, summed it up 100%. Cheap & "safe hour or dependable" normally do not go together. It is pretty cheap & easy to call the rental company and have one delivered, do your work, even if it takes a month or so and then call them when done and have it picked up.
Along these same lines, gets some bids for having the work done from a local contractor. Might be less than you expect.
I understand that you have a budget to work within, we all do. So, your budget dictates that you are talking about an older machine, 1960s or 1970s. You are not buying a truck, so age is not the factor. Condition is the factor. In the older machines I would recommend that you look for an older Cat because Cat parts are available at a reasonable price. Deer, Case and some of the other machines will not hold value like a Cat and therefore will fetch less than the older Cats. The reality and the expensive payback comes when you need parts that any older machine will need sooner or later. I have two 1979 model Cats they both need some amount of work, had they not, I could not have been able to afford them. If you buy a machine in the $10,000 to $15,000 range that will start up easily, run, push dirt, and work hard for more than an hour and not overheat then consider buying it. You can expect to spend some amount of money on it as there are no free rides and at that price there should be visible defects already. If you can do the repair work on the machine yourself it just might pay itself out eventually. If you have to hire your repair work done, you would be better off to hire your dirt work out. Renting a machine for your own farm use is not usually too profitable unless you are already an experienced operator, else you end up paying a lot of money learning to operate with poor results for time and money spent. About the time you get the hang of running the beast you have to either buy the machine or return It $$$$$$. Don't overlook a pretty fair old Cat track loader for a keeper. A 4 way on the front and a ripper or a winch on the back would be a plus. As far as safety on and of the machine, that is entirely a result of your work habits. Working in the trees requires quick decisions and eyes in the back of your head. A good cab or Factory ROPS sweeps and screens are highly recommended for that kind of work. Don't expect 80% on an undercarriage in that price range or even a claimed 50%. Some older machines sit on good uc, but not in that price range. Before you go looking, educate yourself on forums such as this one, or better yet take someone with you that already knows what to look for. Knowing when to walk away is important but so is knowing when to pull the trigger on a good deal that will fade away quickly. Best of luck to you!
Nitelite has pretty much nailed it.Service is always going to be an issue and even though you will probably do most of the work yourself it is imperative that you be able to source the parts you need and sometimes price is not an issue on the parts if no one else has them so buy something that has the best dealer network.I would not be afraid of John Deere but the old Cats have the best chance of being repairable for the long haul.Resale value probably does not even enter the equation here but if it did it would still be a three letter word.Ron G
I would look for an old cat d3/4, or a track loader. Like others have said hours aren't the biggest concern, condition and how well the machine had been cared for are the most important. assuming you are somewhat mechanicly inclined you should be able to handle most repairs yourself as long as you get a decent machine and no catastrophic failures. A track loader with 4 in 1 bucket is probably what I would be looking for personally.
Some people on here believe that the only to move dirt the machine must first be a Caterpillar. When your looking for a reliable machine above 200 hp, they may indeed be right. However, in your size and age group, I don't think that they are. They are right to preach condition though. You need to learn what a worn out undercarriage looks like for starters. Now for your intended buget there are several machines that I would consider. In the under 12k category, your going to have to be sharp cause there is a lot of worn out junk out there, but there are some usable machines as well. The 2 that come to mind are Deere's 450c & ih's td7e. From 12-20 opens up the field significantly, you should be able to find a nice deere 450 & 550 g, ih / dressers td8e and maybe even an h comes in. As well as cat's d 3 & 4 c's. Some case's will be in that $ bracket. Bottom line is anything in that price range will be older and have the possibility of needing repairs, learning what your looking at will be the biggest hurdle. Think of it as a 15k dollar poker game without cards...
Thank you all for the great advice so far! I understand that I will be working on this machine myself and I also learned from this forum that maintenance manuals are a must for any dozer. I haven't ruled out renting a machine just yet either but that's an easy option. Hmmmmm.......my brain is going in circles.
I would consider a small track loader like a Cat 939 or Deere 555. Realistically your budget needs to be $15-25K, a $5K dozer in this class is close to it's value in parts or scrap.
This is the big part of the problem. The majority of machines in that age/price are junk, and the VAST majority of the ones for sale are junk. You can't be in any hurry to find one. Go to a few big auctions to poke around, start them up, drive forward and back, turn etc. DON'T get a number.
I am in the cat only camp because I don't need self punishment. for your price range look around for a 955L. you will never be sorry.
My personal opinion is you to check with some local contractors and see how much they would charge to do what you want done before you go out and buy a dozer. Reason being is that I know several people that tried to do the same thing you are looking at doing. They bought a dozer ended up having to do repairs to it. Spent thousands of dollars to fix it on top of what they paid for the dozer. Not only that but a machine is ment to be operated not sitting out in the pasture for months at a time ask some of these guys what happens in the final drives when they have sat for a long whil . This is my two cents anyhow. The only reason I say this is because I have bid on jobs and the land owners tell me well I can rent one for that or I will buy one and do not understand what it cost to replace undercarriage or trans. I have had very good luck with my d3c III. Great machine but each to his own. I have also run the jd550 & 650 g also good machines. But keep in mind cheaper machine more the repair bill.
What do I look for in an undercarriage or transmission? How do you tell if its on its last leg or still has life left in it?
Cut filters open and look for metal or take fluid samples and send them off.
I am in the Cat camp because I don't want to be held hostage by high parts prices. On an older farm type machine aftermarket parts are just fine for me and the parts are plentiful enough to promote good price competition. A lot of us here on this forum are just playing around with the machines. The sheer enjoyment of being able to do things yourself is a factor, whether working with the machine or working on the machine. Breakdowns are inevitable and this forum is priceless when that happens. The amount of combined knowledge and experience available, just for the asking of the novice on this forum allows a chance of success for anyone wanting to play out their bucket list by playing in the dirt on a budget. You could hire your work done and then buy an old backhoe to maintain your twenty acres, but then look at the prices of old backhoes.
This is encouraging! This is what I want to do with a dozer. Its not for construction work, just playing around and making my area more useable. Can the maintenance be done by one person or do a lot of the jobs require 2 or more strong people?
Its fun to own your own machine but be prepared it will break down. If time isn't an issue it may not be a problem but they always break. I have an old IH t6 I use on my property it came with a complete parts machine so I should be set for parts for a while, the older the machine is then you have to look to the salvage yards for parts not trying to be discouraging just realistic. On a good note it can be a lot of fun. Steve
As far as a woods machine goes, a Deere 450 is my choice. Around here used parts are usually available but may vary in your locale. Cheap and crawler are not often in the same sentence. Dresser made a good machine but parts can be a problem. At my former job we basically sidelined a TD15E because parts for the two speed steering were no longer available.
This is what I did 4 years ago - 2011. I wanted a JD450 size machine but prices seemed sky high for the condition on everything I found. Then I looked at this 1991 Dresser TD7G with 3300 hrs. Seemed solid except the U/C. Right size. It would push even with the track hanging off so I could test it. I liked it so next trip I brought the town road foreman, a dozer man, over to check it out more thoroughly. He thought it was solid also. Bought it for $11K I put about 6K into U/C parts, manuals, and tools that I didn't have. My original estimate was less than 5K. It was a whole summers worth of work for me. I learned that it was very hard work and you need big tools. Then it was another big bunch of money changing fluids and filters. So my 11k machine cost me 17.5K. But it has been running strong for 4 years now, You be the judge. I would very strongly recommend having a dozer man check out any thing you consider buying. That is crucial. Here it is with the partially new U/C gg
Just about anything can be done by a creative person with enough cribbing, hydraulic jacks, chains etc. It's completely doable, lots of us do it professionally and/or for fun. It's just nice to have a realistic expectation that if you spend $10k on something, then you may end up into way more than that by the time you're done. Meanwhile you're working in the garage instead of out in the woods. Personally, I think old backhoes are more appropriate for "weekend warrior" duty, mostly because the tracks are more costly to maintain than the additional hydraulics of a backhoe loader. But to each his own.
Hey g_man, what does 6k in UC parts get you if you don't mind me asking? I realize I may be doing that if I go through with this.
With only 20 acres to "play" around on I'd consider finding a pretty good D6 9U (direct drive) or a D5B (either direct drive or powershift) or perhaps a D4C. You won't have a 6-way power blade but I don't see that as a major drawback.....you might find one with a manual angle blade. Even if the undercarriage is 90% gone how many hours is it realistically going to be used....maybe 50/year?
I do all of my own maintenance and repair work on my D4E dozer and 951C loader. I was a mechanic for many years and I still own all of the tools from back then. My big tools are Harbor Freight el cheepo. If I break one tool I just return it for replacement. A farm tractor with a front loader makes the heavy lifting doable in a one man operation. Learn to work smart by using the machine's own hydraulics to lift itself and as mentioned before use plenty of blocking for safety. As far as the price of an undercarriage goes, I just got the UC measured on the 951C loader an estimate from Cat. $8100.00 to replace the track chains and sprockets. Reuse my track shoes and hardware. Idlers and rollers are fine and the track hardware is fairly new. For $3000.00 I can buy the new aftermarket SALT track chains and new sprocket rims. I am in the process of a complete engine rebuild on the machine at this time. I hope to end up with a machine that will be dependable for many years to come. My old direct drive D4E dozer needs nothing done to it, just regular maintenance. It is a strong runner and sits on a 100% like new Salt UC. I do need to repair the winch when I get around to it.
John deer machines are real good but parts are a fortune!!! I replaced the pulley on my crankshaft at a price of 450$ and my hyd pump was acting up priced it at 4000$ so took the old one apart and found 2 broken springs on the pistons replace them and put a seal kit it it plus oil and filter cost me another 500$. JD aftermarket parts are not to common in my area. Cat has lots of aftermarket parts so next machine i buy will be cat.
OK - here is my list. Might give you a basic idea. Most parts bought at Komatsu dealer except common bolts etc. The biggest gamble is putting all this money into it and not knowing how it will really run out when you are done - ie what else you will find. That is why the initial inspection by a guy that really knows the machine is so important. Even with that it is impossible to tell some things. Dozer $11,000 trucking home 3.5 hr rnd trip $300 2 Sprockets $360 2 Track Chains (V-trk SALT) $3120 264 Trk Pad Bolts/Nuts $175 Freight & tax $300 O/A Torch Fuel $200 Cut off pad bolts and Trk Frame/Rock Grd bolt removal. YOU NEED A TORCH!!! 2 Trk Adjuster rebuild Kits $65 1 Trk Roller $139 Probably should have done all 10 but was running out of money. 20 Rock Grd to Frame Bolts $30 3 Rock guard spacers $68 Had to torch 3 out to get them off 3 9 1/2" spacer bolts/Nuts $75 1 Clutch Pressure Gauge $200 A gamble to buy dozer with gauge not working Misc HrdWare , Tools, Supplies $700 Changed Fluids and filters $600 There you go - That got it working in my woods Since I have replaced 3 metal Hydraulic lines and 2 hoses, Fixed a leaky injector pump, and replaced the voltage regulator. Hope this helps
Nitelite... does harbor frt sell the 100 ton press for the finals/pinions too? this is one of the only really expensive tooling items I need. also, your 51C is a fine loader which would do this fellow a world of good.
Also I should add you need something to move heavy stuff around and act as a hoist to hold stuff up while you position them perfectly for mounting. Each of these track chains weighs over 1000 lbs gg
We Replaced the undercarriage on our 650g about a year ago. This was a total rebuild, put the machine on blocks and tore the whole thing off including the track frames. Ground all the rust off any mounting points and put back together with all new parts. Using ITR parts the total came to 7000.
JD450.... Best dozer to own in the small size line up.....Loads of JD 450's around the hills of Pa...
I don't think this is hijacking anything, as the op will surely get to play with these toys if he goes down this road. I have to go through the other final on my 6D and will probably hire cat to come out for the press part of the r&r. this is the only part of my old tractor that I wish was made differently.
If you get a JD450 get at least a 450 C model. I had a straight JD450 the dry steering clutches always needed something. Motor mount bolts mid frame were always breaking. etc,etc. I'm partial to the International/Dressers. No steering clutches to mess with and cheaper than most.
I got (REALLY) lucky and found 2 977H loaders a number of years ago who's owner had passed away and they had been sitting for a long time. His widow didn't know what condition they were in but they looked not bad. They were parked under a roof out of some of the weather. One had really worn tracks on it while the other one had a brand new undercarriage, but no bucket leading me to believe there may be a problem with it... I was able to make a deal with her for $5500 for the pair of machines not knowing whether or not they ran or if I just bought a pile of scrap metal. After a sleepless night I went over there again with a couple of tools and new batteries and my fears were soon gone as both machines started and ran, the one with worn tracks ran beautifully but the other machine had an obvious engine problem even though it did run. I hauled them both home and eventually moved the new tracks over to the better machine and thought I would part the other one out... Then a few years ago I decided to see how bad the engine really was on this machine... I looked into the cylinders with a borescope and saw that one piston was melted and another had some pitting on it... I scrounged around for parts and found everything I needed to do the repairs at Offroad Equipment for a VERY decent price - something around $500.00 I think for 2 new pistons and rings, 6 injectors, and a few other misc. odds and ends including head gasket, etc. A few days of work later I had it all back together and running perfect! Now I just need some tracks for this machine and I'll have 2 good ones! So I guess long story short is if you can wait and aren't in any kind of hurry, there are some good finds out there for a good price!
+1 on that sentiment.....dead axel arrangement is a weak point on older Cat machines D7 & smaller. If I'd had more time when the final drives were apart on my 6c I would have liked to investigate making a dead axel that would seat on a shoulder like D8K & D9H....no more seating depth problems.
This is kind of what I was thinking. After the first year of 50 or so hours I wont really need it much more.....until I dream up some other big land moving project. But that wont be right away. I may go the rental route and see where that gets me with the land until im sure I want to dive into this. It seems to me that a lot of guys with bulldozers on here have them around for a hobby more than anything else. Nothing wrong with that. Hypothetically speaking, if the undercarriage is at 10% and I use it for 50 hours a year, how many years will I get out of that UC?
I'm new to the forum and decided to jump in head first. As far as a cheap older machine Cat is definitely the route to go. I sell parts for a living and the cat stuff is more available. Stay away from the international and Allis machines!! Another good consideration is how much experience you have as an operator or mechanic. A 90% worn undercarriage would be ok to grade a driveway close to the shop but on a slope it could throw a track. Stuck in the woods with a track hanging off is a crappy weekend that turns into several weekends. A d4c that needs a little love would be ideal. They can be found for 10-15k. I saw a d4d sell at an auction last week with a winch and sweeps for $4500 and I missed it because I wasn't signed in. They are there just gotta do homework. The deeres are not too bad but a little more pricey in parts. A small dozer will do everything a large dozer will. Just takes longer. If tree removal is a major goal than look for a track loader. They are tougher to grade with but can pick up and haul and pushing a tree 8' off the ground is quicker than digging a stump. Find a machine that starts and pulls ok. I always tell customers they buy the undercarriage and the machine comes with it.
http://harrisburg.craigslist.org/hvo/4948923157.html This is what you ask for. Now go get it. Looked for a D-4-D with a direct drive trans but did not see one.
Unless that pic is really out of perspective, the undercarriage is about shot on the d3c in harrisburg
The pics shown don't really show what you need to see, like bushings and idler and sprocket teeth ,but it does look like it has plenty of adjustment left. However a link removed will mask some wear in a photo. It's good to know the number of links when you look at a used machine and count them, one too few and you're buying trouble.
you would have to see it in person to get the true value because you can't see the pins or rollers but the growser bars are high and the teeth on the sprockets are not sharp.
D6C10K.. the dead shafts on mine have been sleeved, but they still seep just enough to keep the c frame mounts wet. I think the fix for that is pull them out and bore them..again? If tct tony reads this he might chime in as I am sure he has been down this road plenty. these finals are kind of a pain compared to any of the planetary rears, but they are designed well enough to last a very long time under some really harsh conditions.
After reading through this thread carefully I draw your attention to all of Delmar and Nitelites comments.Read them and then read them again. If you do decide to buy, Cat would be the forward thinking mans game.If you could afford an initial outlay of more money than your apparent budget get a tidy one with good tracks as you can easily recoup that investment when you come to sell it.Buying cheap will bite your ass hard as you don't have the tooling or expert knowledge to fix them.They can kill and maim quite easily.Even little ones bite! Reading through Nitelites thread on his little smallholding and the 'fun' he has with his D4 and 955 may give a novice the impression that it's achievable.It is,but, Nitelites engineering skills,tools and knowledge is truly inspiring and it would not be easy to follow in his foot steps.
Sleeving mine would have been the best fix, but at about $3000 per side it was a non starter. I agree, they do last a long time....the problem is it's past it's 40th birthday.
How can you tell? What are you looking at that gives it away?
Circled in red are the areas of importance. look at the general shape of the teeth, the peening around the edges, and the depth of the grooves in general. Look at the height of the rails, notice how the bottoms are sharp? Also the chains are tight and the tracks adjusters are compressed, leading me to believe that a link has been removed.
compare those rails to these rails.
I was thinking the same thing . Spotted this late 70's 450C in south central PA . Even has the pin on rake . http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=10561171 Same outfit also has a 555 high lift . http://www.quesalesinc.com/landing....ist.aspx?pcid=2980904&etid=1&dlr=1&catid=1024
Wow! I see what you are looking at now. That is a huge bit of information, thanks a ton!
The above photo is of a brand spanking new set of rails that you are not going to find on a $10-15K dollar tractor with no other problems so to set you sights on a search for a perfect machine in that price range is unrealistic. If you are seriously interested in buying a dozer just invest some time at searching craigs list, ebay, and local dealerships and go look at in person and operate the machines. Most every state has a monthly auction where you can see 50-100 machines at once, you can operate them and then see them sale all in one day. There is always someone there with knowledge to share, on what it look for and what to *lookout* for. The 450-C that td25 posted a link to, looks like a fair buy. http://www.quarrickauction.com/html/quarrick_auction_options.html here is an auction in Penn.
That 450 deere looks like a buy. Looks really nice, only thing that is remotely an attention getter is the cutting edge, and if the frog isn't worn into, its definitely a buy.
Thanks for the comments and compliments nicky. The most important point you made was that they will bite you and they have killed many, no matter the size or brand. I have learned a lot with the help of the experienced people here on the HEF forum. Sort of like Jeremiah Johnson summed it up, This Pilgrim has learned well and, at this time, still has all of his fingers and toes.. Working on old iron is not rocket science but rather a redneck desire to make something out of nothing. Today I started the engine overhaul on the 951-C. Next it will get a new set of sprockets and new SALT chains. Also pulling the track rails to remove some broken mounting bolts. I will post progress and pictures on my thread "Cat 951-C in my sights".
I thought the 450 C looked good for the money . The rails & overall look on the 455 look pretty good as well . http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=10352101 Do ya want the high lift or the dozer ??? Both look pretty good .
TD that little JD loader looks very good for the money. That's a no brainer for someone looking for that type machine.
Yeah CM , I also liked the 555 . A high lift might be something mossyoakpenn could consider in his search for a machine . Hang on a second ................ Found a late 70's Cat 941 in south central PA . Tracks also look good . http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=10461679
Judging from the sprocket teeth, the remaining distance left that the front idler can be adjusted and the grouser bars she will run a long while with that UC. The cab is a plus and the sheet metal seems good.
Good point Nitelite , I'm guessing the tracks on the Cat 941 have 2,500 to 3,000 hours of use still in them ? They look pretty good . That's about the best I could do just looking through machinery trader in central PA . I'm sure there our many other tractors of that size & price range with decent under carriage that would work fine for what mossyoakpenn wants to do . Keep in mind .... A lot of people consider these machines obsolete & outdated so they don't move fast on an equipment lot . They wont bring big money at the sale . They will do big work if well maintained & operated .
I might have a dozer for you. I am located near Wilkes-Barre. Pretty close to where 80 and 81 meet. We have an old Case 450 that we have had for over 30 yrs. We do not use it too much anymore and have been tossing around the idea of finally letting her go, although my dad does not want to. Here is a link to an older thread from where we painted it. We also have a Case 450 track loader that is similar we are looking to part with.
I was in a similar situation, I had 33 acres that needed to be cleared of brush. I also wanted to build a road and do some ditching, so last fall I found a Komatsu d20 p6. I got nearly done with the clearing and developed some kind of steering problem which will require tearing into the tractor. I am not sure yet what is wrong, (going to tear into it today) but I am sure that it is going to cost me some $$$$. My point is that you will want to be able to do most of the repairs yourself or have some pretty deep pockets. Like one poster said, its like a high stakes poker game.