My father had the fuel injector pump replaced on his late 60's Case 530 c/k. Now we are lost as how to time it correctly. Anybody know how to do this? Thanks in advance for any help or advice!
Hi im not familiar with the engine but is there a woodruff key on the pump shaft? if not there should be some way of locking the pump in the position so it is fiting on number 1 cylinder then all you have to do is time the engine so numner 1 is at top dead centre, either do this by lining up the timing marks or by removing the injector and turning the engine over until the piston reaches the top.
Thanks! #1 is at TDC now, so all I need to do is get the pump set to that. I wasn't sure if it was to inject at top dead center or maybe slightly before.
Rutwad, I'm assuming that the pump is on the engine and the dots on the shafts have been lined up. I'm not sure if the 530 has the same plug on the torque tube that the 580's have. But look for a plug just behind the starter. Removing it should expose the flywheel or torque converter. Turn the engine over with a screwdriver in this hole until the TDC mark shows up. There will be degree marks either side of it. Turn the engine in a clockwise direction as viewed from the front looking to the rear. At this point, #1 piston is at the top. Remove the timing window from the injection pump(2 small screws hold it on), make sure you put a drain pan under the pump, and you may have to turn the fuel tank shut-off. Note if there are 2 small lines visible inside, one is stationary, the other rotates. If they are both visible, then you are on the firing stroke, if only one is visible, try rotating the flywheel one complete revolution. Both marks should align and the pump body can be rotated to do this. The fuel line connections at the pump may have to be loosened a bit to rotate the pump any significant amount. Recheck the timing by rotating the flywheel counterclockwise, a few inches around it's circumference, and then turning it clockwise back up to the TDC mark. Pump timing marks should be aligned. Phil
A 530 ck 188 should be timed at 8 BTDC. If it is a TC tractor the plug is behind the starter but if it is a dry clutch there should be a snap cover on the lower part of the bell housing which covers a roll pin which lines with 8 BTDC for proper timing. As previously stated line the dots on the interior of the pump and the shaft , then with #1 cylinder on 8 BTDC ====ON THE COMPRESSION STROKE==== line the marks up and lock it fast. If the pump is still off be very careful that you do not roll the first umbrella seal when you slide the pump on, if you roll the seal not only will fuel go into the pan but also the bushing can be damaged requiring a pump dissassembly and bushing replacement if run that way. I just had to have one rebuilt for that very reason, the interior of the bushing was badly scored. Melben
My 580CK service manual shows the procedure, with pictures, for removing and replacing the injection pump. The timing mark indicator in the torque tube, lines up with the letters DC (top dead center), on the flywheel or torque converter, whichever you have. This TDC indicator is shown in another part of the manual, where it's accuracy is verified using a dial indicator on a #1 cylinder valve, with it's spring removed. The 8 deg BTDC reference, found on the valve cover decal, is referred to as 'specified timing' and not needed to set basic injection pump timing on the G188 diesel, as I understand it. Phil
Phil, the injection timing for all the Case diesels up to and including the early 580 C's was 8 btdc. The 207 when first introduced had starting issues and we updated many of the injection pumps to a 0 degree timing kit at start to get the fuel into the cylinder while the chamber heat was at its hottest, This was accomplished by changing the pistons on the bottom of the pump housing where the advance piston is located, This kit with the updated parts was sent to us dealers by Case Corp. If the injection point is not 8 BTDC then I have mistimed literally hundreds in my career with Case. I can see useing a dial indicator to verify true TDC if one suspects the pointer to be inaccurate but once it is determined that is ok, the point of injection should be 8 BTDC. Once running the transfer pump pressure pushes the advance piston and advances to the running timing. Mel.
I think I have one of those kits, from old inventory. That is interesting about the 207 timing change and the reason for it. My reference to the flywheel mark ,was to clarify that it is actual TDC and not 8 deg BTDC. Phil
The earlier engines had a degree wheel type scale with a few degrees after and a wider maybe 20 or more degrees BTDC. The later like the C's indeed did have the mark at TDC but also had a 8 deg. mark, but no scale as the older engines. The older flywheels with the full scale was in the tractors before the C series. The tractors with the thin flywheel with the bolt on converter has the two points marked but not a full scale. I just did a C several weeks ago but that was the first for a long time. Most of that work on older machines is being done now by customers, we just bail em out when they roll seals or otherwise get into trouble. I'm sorry, I got the impression from your previous post about "specified timing" which I am going to call point of injection that you would time from 0 deg rather than 8, Must have been just a misunderstanding I guess. In my experience "specified timing" would have been the flywheel markings set at 8 BTDC and the scribe lines in the pump brought into register and the pump locked down. mEl
Found the Roosa Master cam advance kit in my box of leftovers. Posting a picture, it even has a valve cover decal. I don't understand what changes to the 207 engine lead to harder starting. It had a larger bore and rod journals, maybe there was a camshaft change. Also a pic of the timing plug on the 580CK converter drive machine. Phil
Phil as I understand it the piston bowl was enlarged to lower emissions as this was a concern caused by tightening federal standards so there was less compression PSI due to increased volume in the piston crown hence less chamber heat to start combustion. If you check it out there were two pistons available for the D series hoes but I think that one was turbo, the other NA. Yes that is the 0 adv kit. Mel
THANKS A LOT!!! I haven't logged on in a few days, and just read throught the updates. I thought I was subscribed for email notification, but I guess I better check that. I haven't looked at the flywheel. Somebody else said he lined it up #1 TDC on compression. He said the flywheel had a "0" and a few marks. The fuel pump came from the shop set for #1. The dots were lined up when it was installed. Does it need to be rechecked by removing the 2 screw window on the pump, or should it be ok? A guy just left that was working on it. He eventually got it cranked. It ran like you were opening the throttle wide open, then letting of, missing on 1 cyl. maybe 2, then revved back up. This is all with the throttle wide open. Lots & LOTS of exhaust smoke, I guess from unburned fuel on the missing cylinder. It will not idle. And there are apparently a few fittings leaking fuel. So do I line the flywheel mark back up, and look in the pump window? Or what now? THANKS AGAIN!!!
''So do I line the flywheel mark back up, and look in the pump window?'' Yes
Here's the latest. I looked through the inspection plug of the bell housing at the flywheel. It looks like the there is a mark 10. But it may easily be something else, I need better light. Then up from there is a series of several lines, probably 25 or more. Looking at the tractor from front to rear, these marks would be clockwise to the 10 mark. Or higher up the flywheel when looking through the hole on the lower right side of the tractor. Anyway, I figured I was in the ballpark and verified that both intake and exhaust valves were closed on #1. Then I went to remove the inspection window on the fuel pump. Fuel poured out. Is this normal? Also, only 1 mark was visible. But there is an inspection window on each side of the pump. The one on the side of the motor is inaccessible. So the 2 marks should line up through the inspection window on the side of the pump away from the engine? And what about all those marks on the flywheel? The 10 mark is at one end of the marks. THANKS GUYS!!!
Your injectors will not fire on respective cylinders if injector lines are leaking.
First, I assume the front most cylinder is #1, correct? If so, I put #1 at TDC. Looked at the dot on the shaft for the pump, alligned the dot in the pump, and verified that the timing marks were lined up in the small window of the pump. Excited that everything was lining up like it's suppose to, so now I just had to put it all together and crank it. Well, I put it all together, but there's no cranking....:Banghead:Banghead. I loosened the fuel line coming to the pump and there is a small but steady flow of fuel. Loosened an injector line and fuel leaks when trying to crank. Not much, but there's fuel. What in the world can I be missing? I absolutely am clueless.
If you hear injectors sqweking and light blue smoke, sounds like you are 180 cam degrees out of time. With a compression gage and #1 injector in line you might see how far off you are (this would be a rough estimate).(#1 is almost always on fan, radiator end)
Did we talk about the return line check valve, maybe another post? Remove return line check valve and try again. (first fiting on top of cover with glass valve and spring) Also if you have a manual fuel shutoff (kill cable or linkage) on pump make sure it gets full travel.
That's the first I heard of that, but I will definitely try. THANKS!!
There are marks on the flywheel starting at 40, 30, 20,10, and DC. I believe there to be even more after DC. Anyway, I can't see or breath very well, but I did get it cranked. But should the injector pump marks align at DC or 8 degrees BTDC?
What years are the "zero advance kit" appropriate? Just pulled the injection pump off a 1976 580C. Are rebuilding it, pilot bushing bad, leaking diesel into the engine oil. Timing was very strange, wasn't set at 8, r or even zero for that matter. Si someone either just plain set it wrong, or is one tooth off on the drive gear. Know this is old post, but am getting ready to order parts and fix. Engine serial number 2818835. Not a "pipe plug" for a port opening, but a stamped steel cover. Thin flywheel, with 8, 4 & DC on the flywheel. And you just try and get a screwdriver in there to turn the motor, ha! Know it is an old posting, but new problem for us. skk
scroll.. if you lined up the lines in the window on the side cover on the pump before you pulled it..and it was running fine.. I wouldn't worry about it.. Unless you wanna pull the front end off and line everything up.. 8* is the magic #.. DC is "dead center" as in.. TDC.. "top dead center".. The P# for the kit is 24371 and 16320 for the pilot tube.. If you want, send me a PM and i'll walk you thru it.. TPG
Brother-in-law went through diesel trade school 35 years ago and trained on these pumps, what bothers me is we did bring the engine up to the 8 BTDC and the timing lines on the pump were both visible but considerably apart. Rotating the engine to 4 degrees, still did not bring the lines together, closer, but no horse shoe. Rotating up to TDC still had about an 1/8" distances separating the pump convergence (timing) lines. I suspect we would have to have gone to 4 or 8 degrees After TDC to make "static" lines match." The engine started, rough, but got better as it warmed up. High idle was fine with acceptable engine power. But the diesel fuel in the oil pan made us pull off the pump, and discover the timing issue. Also noticed that the valves cannot be adjusted correctly on top of everything else, so will have to redo them as well. Brother-in-law just thinks they had the pump rotated too far, but I'm not convinced there is enough rotation in the pump to flange mounting studs to put things correct. Plus the pump looked pretty vertical and correct. so I'm thinking when they overhauled the motor (which it does look like they did in the not so distant past) they indexed the pump drive gear off by one tooth, so just set the pump in and lined it up where they though it ran good and left it that way? Pump mounting studs looked like they were in the center of the slots. Thoughts? SKK
If the pump wont line up and the valves cant be adjusted correctly.. something is definatly wrong.. and worth a look under the front cover.. Smartest thing to do is rotate the engine to the TDC mark FIRST.. then pull the cover and see where thing line up.. Good luck. BTW> they put those slots in the pump housing for a reason.. shouldda tried to rotate the pump before removal.. Another thing to check is the pump drive shaft key.. once you have the front cover off.. remove the nut on the pump drive gear and shine a lite down it.. you should be able to see a key in the slot..
Took the pump apart this afternoon. Return line fitting "jury rigged" with a piece of pipe and double female connector to the original 90 degree fitting with the jam nut, another interesting thing, pipe threads with jam nut, and no sealing washer according to Case Online Parts. Reason for the modification that leaked badly was stripped threads in the housing cover, and little "black mouse turds." So they had the return line plugging problem and this was their fix. Need a new cover or epoxy. Have to decide if we should go ahead and replace the check-valve fitting. Some seem to run without, but Roosa had it in their for a reason. Thoughts? Ah yes the infamous broken elastacast "flex ring," non existent, gone, except one small piece under one of the mounting rivets. Lots of little hard black pieces in various places in pump housing. So they never took apart and cleaned. The center of the plate that this weight assembly rubbed against is abused, but B-I-L sez non functional and not hurting anything to leave. B-I-L does not want to spend the money for the EDI update; we own the backhoe jointly. Rest of pump looks good, except the pilot tube which is grooved badly and we are assuming the source of the increasing oil level in the oil pan. The umbrella seals looked really good however. The timing ball screw, Bristol of course, was a real bear to get out and worried us. Trust me I rapped on it multiple times and it still took a LOT of force to break free. We were worried about damage to the pump housing in trying to loosen it. Took an impact tool to finally free it, and hard taps. I am concerned about this zero timing kit and static timing of the unit, based on what we saw on the timing marks when we disassembled things. One don't know how you know it the kit is installed or not. If it is, how do you initially time the thing, as it I understand it it is already retarding timing 8 degrees, as it sits before running. If there is no factory additional timing at low idle, then will just adjust using window marks with the engine running. Hopefully will be correct then. If not an early 207, or does not have the kit, then timing drive gear must be off or something not right. I don't know how many teeth are on the drive gear to know what one tooth would translate to in timing terms. Ran good at high idle, not so good at low. Theoretically if I understand the kit, you would set the initial static timing to 0 degrees, raster-lines would not line up, but when the engine starts it will advance to the 8 degree running figure, and be in "raster?" Heading up to the "local" pump shop tomorrow or Tuesday to get parts and discuss with whom ever I can find there with gray, I'm sorry silver hair like mine. 70 mile trip - one way, but they have the mandril to press out and replace the pilot bushing properly. B-I-L back in his IC mechanic days never replaced the bushings, just ordered a new housing from parts counter. Has been 20 to 30 years since he rebuilt one of these, so we are going slow and triple checking everything g. SKK
The rough running will more than likely be on account of the broken flex ring.. I wouldn't give the advance a second thought.. The top cover.. the fuel shop will have 100's of "spares" in there salvage area.. JUST ASK for a used 1.. like from a core pump. I charge 1/2 price for used parts.. of free.. depending on my mood at the moment.. Replace the return connector.. Weight retainer.. IF the pins aren't damaged reuse it.. if they show flat marks where its been smashing against the hub..don't.. If the rivets[pins] are damaged and they shear off.. all hell will break loose inside the pump.. and if the BIL doesn't like the cost of an EID, he's not going to like the cost of a Head & Rotor.. You'll hate yourself or BIL for not getting the EID..and having to do this again in afew years.. P# 29111 about 70.00 + tax.. and MAKE SURE to have them put the timing mark on it.. The way I see it.. 70.00 for EID, 32.00 for kit, 20.00 for return connector, 20.00 for pilot tube and 12.00 for epoxy, a used top cover and you got your self a pump .. Good luck.. TPG
Thx, will present the argument!. skk
Spent a couple of hours at the "Pump Shop" yesterday, 200 mi round trip. Quite the learning experience. As luck would have it, the tech had the same general unit in his vise and was reassembling, so got to watch and ask numerous questions. We took apart the timing pistons and the pump does have the "zero advance" update kit. We also found the TSB from Stanadyne on the computer and he printed out for me. Technically the pump should have been relabeled to indicate the change, eh. I also got the Stanadyne printout on the pump itself. Long story short, Mel got back to me, and you do alter the static timing back to TDC on the unit if it has the kit, and at start-up, upon pump pressurization, timing is pushed to the specked 8 BTDC then. Pump itself, according to Stanadyne, has an additional 4 degrees more advance built into it, +- 1 degree. So if whomever worked on the unit previously did things right, we should be good to go with a total advance at pump of 12 to 13, or 24 to 26 degrees engine. Things were easier back in the day when I was racing 327 and 350 gas engines - higher compression and bigger carb, go faster. Thx for all the help and replies. SKK
Your right, the pump tag should have been stamped for the "update'.. Hope it all goes according to plan.. good luck..
This thread was from my original attempt a while back. I have updated my attempts and added pictures. Any additional help is appreciated. I know understand it, but cannot get everything lined up. HeavyEquipmentForums