I just got an invoice for the ATTEMPTED repair of (2) hydrualic cylinders. I'm not sure it matters but they were for a 96" wide snow plow blade branded as Bobcat and sold at the Bobcat dealership. The attempted repair was ended before the units were even disassembled. They could not even get the head gland off. The head gland has some sort of locking ring (kind of like a cotter pin) that is inserted into the side of the barrell. I assume that once this pin is removed the head gland is threaded. The mechanic called me to tell me that he could not get the head glands off of either unit and that he "made some calls" and heard that this style of cylinder (the type with the retainer ring) are known to be difficult, and usually not cost effective, to remove/repair. When I dropped off the cylinders, for repair, the owner of the dealership tried to convince me that I would be better off to replace vs repair. The original sympton was that they were leaking fluid from the head gland during storage (discovered when I got the plow out to prep for winter). The rebuild kit was $60 for each unit and I estimated that it would take a qualified mechanic about an hour to repair each cylinder. Their shop rate is $90/hr so I came up with $300 to repair. New cylinders cost $400 for the pair. The originals were not used very much and, other than the leaks, showed no signs of wear. I decided not to waste $100 so I asked them to dis-assemble the units and we would decide after we saw what was wrong. Now to the matter at hand. I was charged 3.12 hours ($310.00) to attempt to remove the head glands. I have a hard time imagining how it could take that long to NOT dis-assemble anything. I would think that (1) hour would be reasonable, not (3) hours. I know that the mechanic is very "Jr." in his experience and this contributed to the situation. When the owner suggested new parts, vs repair, he did not mention his mechanics lack of ability as a factor in his suggestion. Does anybody else see the problem here or am I being un-reasonable in my expectations?
You are getting charged what the book allows by the ay it sounds. If it takes them 10 minutes and the book says 3 hours, you get wacked for three hours
that could have been 3 hours if they tried both cylinders and called around. it might be stretched a little bit but they also may have broken a tool and added an hour to replace the tool. but why wouldn't you spend the extra $100 and get 2 brand new cylinders with no issues at all. seems like a bad decision on your part. maybe you can make a deal with your dealer and buy the new cylinders and only pay part of the "repair?" of the old ones since they are not competent enough to repair them.
No book time. This is actual time (per the mechanic anyway). I was told by the owner that he might charge me (1) hour per cylinder. My thinking was (1) hour for the pair for dis-assembly only. Yes, at this point, I see that it was a bad decision. At the time I made it I was quoted +/-$200, plus shipping, per cylinder and the shipping was unknown. Those cylinders are not light so I figure shipping would add at least $50. They have not charged me with any shipping costs because I elected to wait for a stock order to get the parts (after I was told they could not repair originals). With Bobcat this can be tricky as any one who may order the part, in a non-stock order status, will get priority if there are not enough parts to go around. Why should I replace the tools that they break? As a back yard mechanic I wonder if I would have spent three hours trying to get them apart. When I pay $90/ hour I expect to get an expert, experienced mechanic who does not have to call someone else for advice. If he does have to call should I have to pay for his time? Remember, this is not an obscure part from some off brand. This was a cylinder, pretty basic for a competent mechanic, from the brand that the dealer services (their only line too). I would not expect he would have to call Bobcat tech support for that. I pay my portion of his training in the $90/hr shop rate. Why should I have to pay $90/hr to train him too? I don't expect to not pay anything. I just have a hard time justifying 3.12 hours in my mind. They never even seperated the head gland from the barrel! On Edit: They did not have to remove the cylinders from the plow either. I dropped off the cylinders at the dealership.
Let me see if I have this right. You paid these guys $310.00 for attempting to do a job they didn't know how to do, and then you bought new cylinders from them? did you just fall off the punking truck?
In my day if the repairs cost more than 50% of new then I went with the new but that was before idiots ruined the world
I haven't paid anything yet. I'm wrestling with how to proceed. I have had countless previous issues with this dealer and I'm growing tired of having this type of situation and the resultant confrontational conversation with the owner. At this point I regret buying machines from this dealer but I am also not willing to take a bath by selling them before I am done with them. I live in a relatively small town and I don't have too many options when it comes to Bobcat parts and service. So right now I'm looking for opinions for the situation as it is now. I'll pass on the Monday morning quarterbacking thank you.
DGODGR; If I were in the same situation i would try to get them to give me a break on that attempted repair charge towards the purchase of new cylinders. I don't imagine you want to spend anymore cash on the old ones. At least not with that dealership. If they would do that, then you would know how much it is going to cost to walk out of there with two new cylinders. If you give up on them altogether you will most likely get stuck with the full bill of $310.00. Have you considered repairing them yourself ? You will certainly get enough information here on H.E.F. to do the job if you decided to go that route. I fully understand the awkwardness of this happening in a small town. If you don't work out a solution that you both can live with it can get even more awkward. I would just guess he needs your future business worse than you need him for parts and service.
I had my local case dealer(brushog too) attempt a rebuild on a deck lift cylinder. They had it apart before i even got out of town and told me it wasn't happening. So back to the dealer i go. They handed me a box full of what used to be the deck cylinder and a new one. They didn't charge me for shop time or the unused rebuild kit. And i'm by no means this dealership's number 1 customer, I buy a set of blades ever few years and current mower is 10 years old. Basically, I'm trying to say getting charged shop time while some guy stares at your cylinders for 3 hours is a load of ****. I'd get your salesman and the service manager together and say that your not buying or having anything worked on here unless it gets made right.
You stated that they told you to just buy 2 new cylinders up front but you insisted that they repair these. Ok so they made the attempt to take both apart and were unable to so now you received a bill for exactly the reason they told you to buy new in the first place. Having been on their side of the counter for years I really dont see what your upset about? I have been in the trade 34 yrs and see a lot of cylinders I am unable to take apart for one reason or another. Even with sending them to our local cylinder shop sometimes repair costs exceed or equal new replacement cost and we tell the customer up front to just buy a new one. Even if it were a greenhorn working on your cylinders he was under the guidence of a lead mechanic, shop forman, or service manager. Time to just suck it up and consider it school fees.
It is because of the points that you have raised that I am on the fence about how I will move forward with this. I'm not interested in being unfair. I agree that I took the risk on the repair. If it would have cost as much, or more, than buying new to repair the cylinders I would have had an easier time coming to terms with it. At least they would have been repaired. The problem I'm having is why they spent so much time on them without any sort of dis-assembly whatsoever. These are 2" barrels not 6". The owner did not say that it would be cheaper to buy the new cylinders. He did not suggest that they may not be able to fix them at all either. He said 2 hours max for both cylinders. Would you have worked on (2) 2" cylinders for 3.12 hours without even losening the head gland? Or would your experience have helped you to determine it was futile after attempting what you know would work, if it was going to work at all? To be clear, I'm not trying to avoid responsibility. I'm just trying to see if I'm having an unreasonable expectation of what was accomplished (or rather not accomplished) in the time that they billed me for. As much as I don't like eating crow you may be right in that I simply am paying $300 for a bit of education. BTW, this shop does not have a "lead" mechanic, or a shop foreman. There is one "mechanic" (he used to be the parts guy) since they fired the mechanic they had due to too many call backs (according to the owner).
A photo of the glands on the cylinders would make things a bit easier for a third party to assess. I've had many cylinders over the years that were apparently designed by idiots and you just threw them in the scrap barrel when they started leaking. Early Case backhoe steering cylinders come to mind. Various methods of holding the packing glands on are like trying to get out of chinese hand cuffs. As to the competence of the person doing the work, it sounds like you already know his limitations. If you had taken the cylinder to a hydraulic job shop I have no doubt you would have been charged the same or more. They might have even repaired the cylinders but the charges might have been the same that you face now. You can try to negotiate the charges with the owner of the shop but remember he is under no obligation to settle with you. The job apparently was understood to be time and materials. Keep calm, don't get loud and just explain how you feel. If they don't wish to deal, pay the bill and imply, don't actually state, you will let the world know of their abilities to repair what they sell.
normally we don't get paid unless our services our complete and work properly. i can't stand that b.s. when you pay to have something fixed and nothing gets done but you still get a bill. i'd be rich if i ran my business that way. if i go put 100' foot of water line in and when i turn the valve on there is no water i don't get paid...period. until it is fixed. i know there are plenty of qualified mechanics on the forums and i respect your work very much. so don't think i'm balsting away at you guys. pretty clear that the bobcat wrench was not qualified and you should not pay for is inaptitude. regards, cd p.s any snow to plow?
I have only plowed about 5x this year. I missed (2) events while I was on a cruise too. I won't complain much though. I only plowed 2x all of last season.
I hate to hear stories like this.In my opinion the dealer should have gave you a call after the first hour ........"hey MR. DGODGR,we worked on these cyliders for an hour and still cant get them apart.Do you want us to keep at it or order the new cylinders?" At least then they would have given you the benefit of doubt on the decision which way to go.After all, they knew what the new cylinders cost to begin with.And if you said "yes ,order the new cylinders". A good gesture from the dealer would have been to waive the one hour labor cost sence youre a customer that has bought equipment from them in the past.If it was me I would pay them and look for another dealer or mechanic.
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That would have been fantastic. I am seriously considering it.
As JohnC stated, would be better for us to form an opinion if we had pics of said cylinders, but from what you're describing, that sounds like cylinders that have the head retained by a piece of 1/8" or 3/16" key stock inserted in a window slot cut in the side of cylinder can. Hard for me to describe it here, but that key stock is installed with a hook on one end latched into a hole in gland. Over the years, water, salt, rust, has an effect on that key stock retainer, if you turn the gland to remove that key stock retainer and it breaks off that hook, you're screwed. Sounds to me like that's what he was dealing with. My sentiments exactly, a customer is paying me to do stuff that he feels is above his head and needs someone with the expertise to do the job, something I'm always mindful of. Doesn't happen often, but if I run across a problem like this that I can't solve, I will be generous to the customer and not hose him down, it's just good business practice in my book. Sounds to me like you're working with a no loss shop, they account for every minute that an employee spends and they take no losses. Not the way I do business.
Very well said willie 59, I was hoping you would have a comment. Treat me as you would like to be treated.
this reminds me of something that happened to me. I slightly bent a rod on a cylinder, went to the local dealer and asked if they could fix it. They said "rods that are bent can not be fixed, we throw them out and just replace", and said they'd be happy to sell me a new one I thought that sounded weird and took the rod to a local machine shop guy, he straightened it for $15.00, it was barely bent. I took everything a part and put it back together. So with the cost of some seals(under $20) and The $15.00 for straightening, I belive I came in way under the price of a new one, and it works fine. They're not called STEALERS for nothin
most dealers dont have an internal machine shop to make parts. many dealers wont do outside/sublet repairs. for example mr customer brings his loader in for an over heating engine. dealer finds a damaged/leaking radiator. mr customer doesnt want a new radiator, but demands that this one repaired radiator shop repairs and tests radiator dealer reinstalls it, and send mr customer on his way.. a week later, engine over heats, cracks the head. mr customer tells the dealer, it's your fault, you worked on it, i'm not paying for a new head and labor. unfortunately it happens all the time. several years ago, we had a customer come in and buy a LOT of engine parts for his machine. several months, he's at our door demanding that we get his engine running, and again, it's not my fault, i'm not paying for it. :crying the further we dug into the story, we found that a local machine shop had repaired his cracked block, installed rings, bearings, seals, valve job. mr customer didnt provide them with inj pump, injectors, or timing belt. when it wouldnt run after he "fixed it" himself, he blamed the machine shop, after a loosing battle with them, it was now the dealers fault it wouldnt run. it eventually ran, after he was sent to collections for non payment, machine was sent to the auction. :drinkup
Ya....I don't want to be THAT guy. I am going to pay something for the repair attempt. I just don't agree with the amount. As I've said before I want to be fair. What I would really like to know is if this amount (3.12 hours) is fair for a failed attempt to even loosen the head gland of a 2" cylinder.
You describe it very well. The Bobcat cylinders are exactly what you describe. In fact the cylinder looked, to me, just like the many other B/C cylinders that I have seen with head glands that come loose from regular use. I decided that I would tighten the head gland before the packing was destroyed from the gland getting too lose. The head gland has holes for a spanner wrench, which I don't have, so I put a pipe wrench on it and commenced to tightening. It was after I felt the key stock break that I looked closer and saw the window and key stock. So it sounds like I had eliminated the possibility of repair on one cylinder before I even started. I did tell the mechanic about what happened and nobody said it was going to be a problem. This is why I have an issue with paying $90/hr for a lesser experienced mechanic. I feel as though I did not get the best advice to make my decision. While the owner did suggest replacement vs repair he did not offer good justification. His reasoning was that there may be unseen damage, maybe noticeable on the inside, that would render the cylinder unworthy of repair. At the time I was upset as to why they were leaking in the first place. This plow does not get much use. Even in the winter I rarely, if at all, use it. I am really considering selling it. I'm sure I will lose money on it so I did not see wasting an additional $150-$200 on it. We agreed that they would try the repair and stop if it was going to be cost prohibitive. Running the repair cost up to 3/4 of the price of replacement, with out even making any progress, is cost prohibitive. It sounds like you have experience with this type of cylinder Willie. Would you have spent 3 hours attempting to remove the head gland? Or would you have spent maybe an hour and determined that continuing would offer diminishing returns? Based on your quote I think you would probably have said, up front, that the broken key stock would make it impossible to repair anyway.
Being a "dealer" shop, the shop foreman often does not see what the mechanic does with his time, only his time card. The shop foreman then forwards the time to the secretary who does the billing ect. Horrendously large bills can and do happen this way. Often, by going and talking to the shop foreman they can be settled fairly. Doesn't always happen but worth a try. Being an independant repair company where I do everything from the repair to sending the bill definately has it's advantages. Both for me and for the customer. If I work on a peice of equipment and do not fix it, I do not bill the customer. Occasionally I do run into something that I just cannot figure out. If this happens, no matter how much time I've spent, there is no bill. Whether you send your equipment to the dealer or to an independent shop, each has it's good and it's bad. More and more I see it getting harder to do business in our "suit happy" society. The majority of customers are very easy to deal with. However, it only takes one or two bad ones for a business to make a blanket policy covering everything and then the honest person loses out. Enough rambling, hope you work it out and can continue to do business together.
I wasn't going to reply to this thread until I read your post. I'm not an equipment dealer. I'm a contractor who just happens to have a welding/machine shop in a small rural town. Had a guy come in with a bent cylinder off an excavator. He had bent it slightly and it was seeping oil. I had a 100 ton press (the only one in town that big. ) He asked if I could straighten it. My response was..I don't know, but, I can push on it. I told him I expected to get paid whether I straightened it or not. There's a chance it'll always leak, but, I thought that risk should be his, and not mine. He agreed, I pushed on it, and it worked. A hundred or so dollars and the guy saved buyin a new cylinder, or at minimum a new piston. A few weeks later another guy came in with a cylinder off a rubber tired backhoe. This one was smaller, and was bent pretty bad. like a dog's leg. He was looking at a $2,000 cylinder, and had heard I could straighten cylinders. Of course, he insisted I work on it. I warned him his was different, the other cylinder had just a sl;ight bend in it. After a discussion about wanting to get paid whether I fx it or not, he agreed, and left it with me. On his way out the door, he stopped, and pointed his finger in my face, and warned me to NOT scratch the chrome. Woooooo! Wait just a minute. I told him to get his cylinder andtake it home with him. He backed up, apologized and agreed that it would be hard to straighten without scratching it. I did assure him I'd do what I could. The problem with his cylinder was it was bent sharply, and in a VERY short area. I cushioned it, and cradled it in a temporary cradle and ran the press up to 50 tons. It sprang right back. I ran the press up to 70 tons, and it sprang right back. The third time, it broke in half, one end flying across the shop floor, landing in the gravel driveway. LOL. When he came back, I handed him the two pieces, along with a bill for $100 or so. That was 10 years ago, and he's just now starting to speak to me again. BUT, I don't feel bad about it. I warned him. I'm not a cylinder repair shop. I simply have a press and can push. I didn't tear it up, HE did. The dealer who worked on the skid steer cylinder is just that, a dealer. He warned you to just buy new ones. I think you should just bite your lip and pay the guy. If he did anything wrong at all, he shouldn't have spent 3 hours on it before giving up.
Could a guy spend 3.12 hrs in a failed attempt to get one of those cylinders apart? It's possible. Should they charge you that amount for failed attempt? Can't really answer for that shop, only know I wouldn't do that. But then I'm a small shop, don't have corporate policies that direct me. I have had plenty of jobs, those type cylinders included, that are a particular challenge to work on. There's is a point, sort of a point of no return when working on a difficult component or machine, that I have to say "if I proceed further, I'm committing myself to see it through and will likely loose on hrs spent". So what would I have do in this case? My customers know that I keep in touch with them. As soon as I turned that gland and that key stock doesn't peel out, I would have been on the phone with them right then discussing what we are dealing with, allow them to be in the loop and make decisions. I always keep my customers informed whenever I run into something. I've always been straight up with my work, have no interest in being dishonest in my work. For this reason, I don't have problems sleeping at night.
Sounds familiar. If mine would have been handled in this manner we would probably not be typing about it. Thanks all for your input.
let me say i've worked for dealers for over 25 years i'd agree that 3 hrs is too much labor, and i would be questioning also. ( even as a mechanic ) heres my suggestion, buy 2 new cylinders, and ask the service dept to cut the labor bill by 50% i probably wouldnt have spent more than 30-45 minutes working on a cyl that i couldnt get broken loose before letting my boss know that "this aint coming apart" you mentioned the plow hadn't been used much, seems to me thats when cylinders start leaking, pins, and bushing sieze up , and belts break when eq sits idle for an extended period of time. we sell a lot of plow cylinders the day after the 1st snowfall. :beatsme :drinkup
You stated above the dealer told you 2 hrs MAX for repair. Why is there a question about 3.12? Good luck with it.
I agree with DigDug Offer up the money for the 2 hours. It is a little excessive, but you walked away expecting 2 hours, so both sides will be less offended by that offer. Remember the lesson and give them business accordingly. I understand there are few options, but that is also what drives a lot of folks to learn to do it themselves.
Its just my opinion so don't bash me too hard for it, I'd pay the bill, buy the new cylinders and pay for those too and move on with life, chalk it up to experience. I'd be more concerned with future business with them, and to me time is money, today might not be a big deal, but later on it could be. I won't split hairs with you over the time, you authorized the attempted repair, it failed, proceed with what you have to do, only you know the dealer, you stated you've had problems with him in the past and you trusted him to do what was right, obviously he didn't, I'd keep that in mind for the next parts deal from them, or repair needed. To haggle with him over an hour of repair could cost you more later in life, the worry I've got is what about next time, it could be a far better deal to repair a part and they might say to themselves, yea, this guy beat me last time, why risk it, lets not give him the option of repair, but just tell him its new or the door is there don't let it hit your butt on the way out, cash upfront before ordering the part. I'm not saying this is the case at all, I just know how the world works and how places work, a bunch of people come in and need service, the one's that are better paying customers come first, the rest can wait. Now I always ask what it'll cost to repair everything I take in, but I don't get hung up on the quoted price, sometimes its higher, sometimes its lower, in the end it seems to work out right and I get excellent service when I need it. I've been given your options many times, the odds are not great, things don't go right, parts are broken worse than anyone realized, its not a science, things happen, but I take the risk, not the dealer, it was my choice and he gets paid for his effort, now that said, I've also got a good enough relationship with most of my shops, I don't worry about it anymore, if they say they might be able to fix it, I'll let them try, I've never got hung up over the hours it might take or should take, but rather the overall outcome on many deals. Some dealers I'd never give them any opportunities to bill me for any repair, its new parts only, others can do as they wish, I trust them to do the best they can on my behalf, it just depends on the dealer or shop and my experience I've had with them.
id put them on and run them and try to get them good and warm and they might quit leaking. Just sayin. I do all our company,s cyl work, all bobcat brand work sucks, from the wheels to the engine, I hate those machines, my big hands dont fit anywhere.
Yair...We used to have a slipway and engineering shop in a remote fishing port on the Gulf Coast. We employed the best folks we could get but occasionaly there were hassels with billing time. I was once accused by an unhappy customer of being a "parasite preying on the misfortunes of others"...it wasn't my fault he had drilled and tapped the engine beds on his self built trawler and then used over length inch and a quarter mounting bolts through the Chockfast. We had to gas-axe the heads off the bolts to get the 3408 out for a new crank and then cut the engine beds and fabricated a conventional mounting system...he'd shot through to civilisation womanising and drinking and left me to make the call...it amounted to about fifty hours extra labour. Anyways we resolved it. He wasn't happy but we gave him some concessions on other work and he became a valued client. That's the problem with being in the service industry...as soon as you take a job on it can become your problem unless the owner is kept in the loop to make the decisions. Just my take on the situation. Cheers.
DGODGR : How did the situation work out ? There was a lot of discussion but no final results.
I sent the payment in full figuring I would take my lumps (educations are expensive). Later I was in the store because I needed a new o-ring to install the new cylinders (which they did not have BTW) and talked to the owner about it. He was frustrated, as was I (I'm so tired of dealing with these type of issues), and he asked me what I wanted. I requested he just reduce the bill by the hour that was above what he quoted (I still paid for 2 hours to attempt to disassemble (2) small cylinders). He said he would credit my account. That was over a month ago. I have not seen the credit yet.
You know, that's something that really yanks my chain...I shouldn't have to call you (owner) back and ask you to make good on a promise that you made to me. :Banghead