I am going to keep beating this drum about once a year here and hopefully we can keep people's interest. In my field (generators) the manufacturers made the jump from full mechanical to full electronic diesel engines basically overnight. On an electronic unit I can't even replace an injector because of trim codes, and of course they have many other systems to fail. I found this video. I have seen others very much like it but this one seems up to date and hopefully the tide can be turned on this dealer lockdown stuff. Of course Deere is probably the worst offender and everybody knows that. If they are watching this forum, let it be known that under no circumstances will I recommend a new Deere product to my customers, both because of the software lockdown issues and their refusal to support products from even the recent past. (Engine design also has something to do with it.)
Everything required should be available for a reasonable cost so owners or mechanics can repair the equipment. It's a monopoly and should be illegal. It's like car manufacturers saying you can only have a dealer service your vehicle. There needs to be a large group formed to fight this kind of BS or it's going to get worse.
Customer support doesn't mean much anymore.
Here is what I am thinking. To program an ECM it should take a laptop computer with some cheap software and a USB plug. You could easily change injector trim codes if it were allowed this way. It would be trivial for manufacturers to implement this. They could easily log whoever had made changes so they could point blame where it belongs if something fails in warranty. Outside warranty it is not their baby any more.
This is something I have been mad about for years. It doesn't matter what color of iron. They all do it. If you live a couple hours from the dealership, a lot of dollars are spent on travel time just for a sensor or harness repair. Not hard stuff to do, just maybe hard to get at. In 20 yrs this new iron theoretically should be cheap because nobody will want to pay exorbitant prices for something that will take a small fortune to keep running. Plus, rodents chewing electrical harnesses ---- you get the picture! Combines are probably the worst piece of farm equipment for rodent damage to electrical stuff. Ya gotta love the electronic age lol
Look on the bright side, as they continue to use thinner wire and cheesier connectors
Years ago new machinery came with a fairly comprehensive selection of tools, some crawler tractors even had a template to measure all the components of the track gear. So in this day and age a module and hardwear for doing daignosing be included as a tool and come with the equipment when purchased.
I feel your pain. I do a lot of work on gensets and we are having a hell of a time with John Deere engines. They love freezing the PCV and pumping all the oil out all over the place. Plus we have to pretty much call the dealer for any technical troubleshooting. Our little Kubotas and Isuzus will do 20k hours no problem though. Stick a new water pump and alternator on as needed and service them regularly and they just go.
I've been through this issue more times than I care but I think the future is only looking bleaker and more costly. All the big manufactures are adding telematics to the machines so they can watch any machine in their territory. The issue could be resolved at that level if they would tell you what is wrong and which parts you will need to repair something. This is the manufacturers way of this as supporting their dealerships as they intend to take the profit out of the new machine sales. Dealers are going to be marginalized by the manufacturers providing an Amazon type solution. Pop into their web site and order your machine. The dealer will send out a person to inspect the trade and will enter the info into the manufacturers software who will then provide a trade value. The quote will be generated and a take it or leave it offer will be made. Accepted offers will drop into the production line at the factory and be shipped through a dealer lot where final inspection is done. Machine to be delivered with the paper work stating the manufacturer is entitled to all data created on that machine in perpetuity. It will also state in the contract that only authorized personnel will be able to affect repairs. Deere is on the top of the ag market. Unfortunately unless someone else is able to provide an alternative to the Deere line or induce government control such as requiring a system like OBD for cars, then Deere is going to continue down this path. So far the issue hasn't hit the construction, forestry or mining industries to any great extent yet. The issue is not government intrusion anymore. Big brother is the multinational corporation dictating how you will be doing business.
Be interesting to see how it all shakes out in the future . If becomes a big enough problem for customers and the market has a profit potential other companies will jump on & sell an aftermarket kit to remedy the issue like they have in the past . Similar to what Jon Kinzenbaw was doing with his repower kits back in the day . https://www.kinze.com/blog/the-john-deere-5020-meets-jon-kinzenbaw On a 2018 side note ........... Those old Detroit Diesels keep looking better all the time .
Some of you guys get together and start a company that removes all The bs computer crap and make those new machines run without them.
I'm in, I'd love to give the big green machine fits. We've got a couple of Deere powered Watson rigs and they're a ROYAL PITA to deal with. **** poor service, no inventory etc. Not worth a plug nickel
You guys do know why Deere tractors are painted green........ So they can hide in the grass when a Minneapolis - Moline shows up .
Freightliner with the Detroit DT 12 automatic---your locked out from repair. They got you by the nuts. Truck Shop
CUI BONO? Who benefits? More monopolization. More cost. We have less control, they have more control. THEY decide how long a machine should last. All manufacturers connected at the hip. No real competition. When the loan is paid up and the banksters have collected their exorbitant interest on money issued out of thin air, it's time for the machine to self destruct. The environmental regulations have helped the banksters.
Big corporations are usually HAPPY to be more regulated, it keeps the small competitors at a disadvantage to break into the market or stay competitive. In some regards the environmental regs force companies to "lock" their software so users can't bypass the emissions. Mostly they're just happy to have the excuse. JD may be signing their corporate living will/bankruptcy plan/death warrant by locking out the consumers and independent shops. The big farms who can afford the dealer service and lease equipment don't care now, but when the trade in drops because JD is no more valuable (FIXABLE) than Hongwongdong people's tractor company, then the lease numbers won't work anymore. It seems the big three auto makers had quite a run of producing more and more complicated "crap with gadgets" for the new car buyer, meanwhile the imports were making stuff that had better resale value, and were able to lease them for less because a three year old Camry had such a higher resale value than the big three's vehicles. The vehicles are more complicated than ever, but from the little I see of new vehicles, the reliability gap behind the Asians has closed dramatically post bankruptcy (and even before bankruptcy, just too late to matter). The pirated software is out there apparently, or somebody who's motivated can make their own. The other disrupter is autonomous equipment, with no driver the economy of scale is lessened, so equipment that fits 3-6 to a container could replace some ag, construction, and logging equipment (RAID ish redundant array of inexpensive equipment). Hongdong et al would compete very well with Cat or Deere in that market segment.
When they outlaw working on equipment only outlaws will work on equipment. Instead of a trunk full of Mason jars of hooch running the back roads it's now a service truck and an Xplore tablet with offshore permanent or 10 year dealer access.
Your right on 56wrench. Everybody in business these days are multinationals. Out of all our accounts, only 3 or 4 are small business. So true Delmer. The big dogs get seat at the table when regulations are being written.
It seems as though the government, big multinationals and the media are a single entity. Makes you wonder if the big corporations are writing the regulations. I thought WonHongLo was manufacturing the tractors for John Deere now.
I've got a friend that works overseas and he said that (in the past at least) to sell in foreign markets, as there are no 'authorized' dealerships within 12,000 miles of Xaingping or Uzbekitown, manufacturers gave up the diagnostic software with generic permanent or long term licenses. Not much to prevent them from selling it back to the US market other than they'd(manufacturers) get it so it shows up as a virus/malware somehow, but now they(offshore) get around that by installing software & giving dealer licenses remotely (TeamViewer).
Delmer hit the nail on the head. EPA!!!!. They don't want you to be in the software tweakin and modding. Nevermind that most dealer software wont allow you to go in and tweak. Those parameters are usually locked out. Of course the mfr doesn't want to "give" out proprietary information. That would lessen your dependence on the dealer networks.
Reworked a dead 1968 Ford Galaxie 500 last summer & got her back on the road . Didn't have to go to the Ford Dealership for anything . All aftermarket .... Demand is good enough my buddys from Taiwan will build & send me the part I need and it works ! Them Taiwan fellers could provide a part for a JD tractor pretty quick if there is a market for it .........
I saw this coming WAY BACK.. It started w/ tamper proof screws on mechanical injection pumps.. It use to be that the only thing "required" was a small wire w/ a lead seal attached that got crushed to "lock" the screw in place.. or a PLASTIC cover.. THEN came the "tamperproof screws".. The 5 sided torx screws, THEN the 6 sided torx screw w/ the tit in the middle, now its a 5 sided torx w/ a tit in the middle.. NOW theres 3 & 5 sided BOLTS & STEEL covers.. that take a grinder & 15 minutes to remove.. & all this goes on 1970's technology.. I don't bother replacing the STEEL covers.. I just put red lacquer on the screw & nut.. I figure, if you wanna turn a screw.. you'll find a way regardless..
If it really is EPA, I would like somebody to cite the code and section that prohibits replacing your own injectors so I can read it for myself.
I just read an article on Facebook from the Washington Ag Network News Source, Feb. 5, 2018 stating that the Association of Equipment Manufacturers and the Equipment Dealers Association are working towards the right to repair. The commitment aims to provide a comprehensive set of service information tools for tractors and combines put into service by model year 2021. Manuals, product guides and service demonstrations, on board diagnostics and diagnostic tools. The two organizations have launched a website, R2Solutions.org for info.
That web address does not work, and I found another reference to it in Google as well, so you did not mistype, either they have not got their web site going or JD lawyers took them down immediately
The best form of protest is to quit buying the new computer run equipment and start rebuilding the older equipment.
Problem there is the older equipment isn't as productive. A 9500 Deere combine ain't going to handle a 40' grain table..... Ed
I agree keeping old machines running is the best way to motivate manufactures to open source diagnostics etc. Like bumpsteer said, Combines have come along way in the last 10 years or so. Older machines are not at the same level of productivity. Moving from 7088's to 7120's was a big jump and that was only 6 years ago.
My brother in law runs an old school harvester with a 40ft Draper front. Every year he get Case out to do a preharvest inspection. A number of years ago he was thinking of trading it. The service man told him not to as all the new machines are nowhere as reliable and just plain junk. Every year he gets his crops in with no break downs so he's a happy camper.
Yes, how productive is it when it breaks down? Not just the time lost on a breakdown but the uncertainty if it breaks at a critical time? Seems like it might be safer to hire an extra guy to run another old, slow (reliable) combine in some cases rather than some new hot rod.
Reminds me of the turtle and the hare......slow and steady wins the race.
Some dealers are not reliable in response times. CAT told a customer of mine that it would be a week before they could get a field truck out on their D6T that had broken down right in the middle of a levy. Could farmers stand to have that happen? I ended up having to drop everything and repaired it in 1 day so it could be moved. Not only is it the technology, but it's also the dealers themselves.
Fought with this with EEC in autos and light trucks from the 1980's, moved into medium/heavy duty equipment in the 90's and then into such as ALTEC or TEREX booms, all CCC now no rods levers or hard connections just solenoids and wires. Hydraulics used to be a joy to work on now they are a mess of the electronics marvels plus the technology changes so fast two years and the software is totally different, switching methodology completely different, safety circuits fail and do not identify then it becomes a Easter Egg hunt. Or in such instances a wire gets a nicked spot or a rodent chew, corrosion changes the resistance and that circuit sees a issue but cannot identify so just faults and states a generic code. Can be so stressful just to dig around on the fault trees that do not direct to anything set in stone.
I understand the frustration expressed here, I know, I work on it to. But what is behind all the fancy new stuff? Some of it is government regulations but isn't a big part operators? I used to do work for a company with Deere tractors and pan scrapers. They had several 70 series. No one complained about having to pull SCV levers all day but when the new 9000 series came with electric switches and computers ect. no one wanted to operate the 70's anymore. I see this kind of thing frequently whether tractors or excavators or wheel loaders. And whether we like it or not, new cars/trucks or equipment are still more reliable than the older ones. I drive a pickup with just short of 300,000 miles on it and have had to do virtually nothing to it. In 1970 a car with 100,000 miles on it was pretty much shot and you had to do a tune up every 10,000 or so miles. And they didn't ride or perform as good. It's sad but a stupid little Subaru will now blow the doors off a '70's vintage car with a 400+ HP engine. As far as the right to repair, from what I have read the government passed a law dealing with cell phone repair and the auto/equipment companies have figured out a way to make it work for them. And when you see what a good number of people do to their brand new pickups with the chipped computers ect. pushing the horsepower far beyond what it was designed for I can almost understand part of the reason behind this. Isn't this part of the problem? If the general public has access to the diagnostic equipment can they leave things stock? There's always someone who has to mess with things which in turn causes other problems. What if equipment under warranty or say newer than 3-5 yrs old has to be repaired by the dealer and after that they have to release the technology to the general public. Or if the owner can show proof that the dealer has not been able to repair the machine in a reasonable time? Lots of words here and don't know if they help or not but they're just a few of my thoughts.
I'll bet that if you left the software wide open, with only the caveat from the manufacturers that they will not warranty any damage nor support modded trucks, the small number of people who mess with it would be a drop in the ocean compared to the ones who leave it alone. The total emissions would change little because the modders tend to junk their equipment so fast anyway. It is just the government yay-hoos trying to prevent every, single case of modding and not letting anybody slip through the cracks.
Some photos of dry land wheat where I live and that's all there is dry land wheat. The talk about combines in this thread are interesting. And photos don't even show the real steep ground around here. There's an area north of town called Sky Rockets. Truck Shop
I read a while ago about some blokes got a 383EFI Chev crate engine and put it on a dyno. They then measured all the out put including fuel burn and emissions. Thy then removed all the EFI gear and converted to a Carborated engine then tuned to to the same emissions and fuel burn. Loe and behold the horsepower and torque was exactly the same. Since reading this article I have often wondered it changing a common rail diesel back to old school that you could achieve the same results. I understand that modern engines are only part of the reliably problems of todays equipment with computer controled everything. And to think all this computerized junk started from the Global Warming/Climate Change LIES perpetrated by lying Al and others.
Someday i'm gonna make a road trip out to the skyrockets. There are actually a lot of hilco machines around the Hiawatha, KS area. The hills are windblown loess and they are steep, just not very tall. Older combines can run big headers in dryland wheat, but the bu/hr these newer machines can do in irrigated wheat and barely is unmatched. Going from 4 big machines to 8 older ones would be killer for the custom harvesters. Twice as many machines to move. Twice as many flaky "operators." In the 5 years i was a wheaty we had more machines multi-day deadlined from mechanical issues than computer/mechanical issues. The 8120 having 3 rotor gearbox failures in green barley straw the first year didn't help. All for the want of some loctite on the one bolt that held rotor drive.
There are allot of Deere S690 and 9870, 9660 bines around here. Very few farmers are running old equipment. Truck Shop
Engine Masters brought up the same issue when they were testing some superchargers on the dyno at 3:25 in the video .
Hillco is your friend there...... Ed
Green stem and or excessively dry thatch wad up is what we deal with here. One or the other not ever quite between, and that would be up around the Bowling Green MO region, wheat country. It really is not fair that autos were forced to EEC 4 and whatever they have now as proprietary was destroying the local garages, the later set ups allowed after market diagnostics machines not only dealer set ups. Same should hold true for HE and Trucks but doesn't, about the time a local Rep gets told they will vote him down if he does not step in that will change but not before. Deere and CNH around here are not retaining mechanics so being proprietary does little good for them, just adds to the work load they CAN'T get to, make customers MORE angry.
The access to vehicle diagnostics was forced on the auto manufacturers by the state of California. The people who own and repair trucks and machinery have not shown themselves to have the political strength to force the politicians to do the same. It likely won't be long before the electronics packages have the ability to communicate the problems to service personnel who will be trained on how to access that function. Mechanics at that point will be less intelligent so the dealerships won't have to pay more. They will go back to being parts changers.
You are assuming the engineers that write the software will have a clue enough that the software will report correctly to the service department. I always tell customers, when it really has a problem it never logs a code and when it logs a code it is usually just an electronics glitch related to the sensor system and no real problem.
FWIW, Deere's better idea....my Z970R zero turn mower has a body control module. Engine has a carb, all the bcm does is control all the safety "features". Problem is, it doesn't have a memory! ***? The tech told me to video any codes.....after it's shut off they're gone. Reminds me of The wizard of oz... Ed
All the functions can be read from an office somewhere else. New machines already can tell you what the problem is and could be used to let a monkey bring the right parts the first time the drive out to repair the machine. It is not much of a step to automating that process.
They have been saying that about trucks for 20 years now and it still takes mechanics to fix them, the difference now is the service information is more sketchy and incomplete because the caliber of writer seems to have gone down.
I'm still in contact with trucking folks and it's amazing to me how it's become 'normal' to hop across the country between dealer shops with a newer truck- " Sitting at the dealer waiting for a bay in Topeka, same problems after I spent 3 days at the dealer in Houston last week and they said they said they had it fixed....." I would blow a gasket. There are quite a few going back to older trucks & gliders, can't make any money sitting at the dealer. Glider kits for equipment, that's the answer! 2018 machine with your choice of power.
Crummy is right about the gliders. We do some work for The daimler plants (they make freightliner) in our area and i have herd they are building more trucks without engines.
Let me start out saying I fully support this right to repair thing. However mostly as it applies to programming and obsoleting electrical parts. Slowly the aftermarket diagnostic software for off road equipment is coming to market. I have aftermarket software that can handle the trim code files for the injectors, yes John Deere. Also egr calibrations, VTG controller calibrations and it gets better with each update. So, we as mechanics/technicians must use what is available to keep our job/business from fading away. As a general rule the only time the dealer needs to be involved is when there is ecu failure or reflash . With Cummins I can remove the ecu and they can bench program it at the shop with out a service call.
Also software, even dealer level , will not fix the machine for you. The diesel mechanic with an understanding of theory of operation has still got to be operating the software for it to be effective, because under all that stuff is the same old engine with valves and pistons and such.
Have to agree with Birken here. As with the machine I have been driving the electronics would have seen a loss of fuel pressure then the no start. How many parts are involved there? And it narrowed to a degraded fuel line. Mechanic is not a parts changer, someone that throws pieces at machines is no longer a mechanic he/she is a drone and a robot could do that but fix the problem probably not. I could only imagine the costs associated to replace everything from the tank to the head to correct a suspicion issue.
Problem with Gliders is what year model they call it. If the laws change and a glider built on a 2018 frame does not have title for the previous unit it could require upgrade to cab date electronics/emissions controls. Used to be able to drop a Old V8 gas in where a 5.7 diesel came out, MO claimed to do so meant a retitle and a change of fuel type where a converter and other emissions components are then required. That was 20 years ago, trucks could be next.
Dynos are the biggest "tool" on the planet. You wanna prove a cooling system is defective, put it on a dyno. The same if you wanna condemn a fuel system. There is so much wrong with dyno results. Peak torque and horsepower are just that. A very narrow point in which the engine produces the most with what its given. A carb can't compete with an EFI system for broadband power. You wanna pull from below the torque curve, no problem. You wanna make pulls in higher elevations wothout grenading a turbo, no problem. You just cant do that with older mechanical systems.
There is a big fight about the glider exemption with trucks last I heard- MSO will title as say a 2018 but doesn't have to meet emissions standards for that year. Fed EPA wants no more exemption, places like Fitzgerald are howling.
Someone will always find a way around being "locked out". Unlocked cell phones, software, tuning chips. Anyone here remember when there was always some guy at work selling hacked satellite boxes that would get ALL the channels HBO, Showtime, porn, PPV fights?
Yes. Worse comes to worst, aftermarket could always build their own ECM. Can't be that hard. Take in cam timing pulses, put out fuel injection pulses and a few other things. The problem would be making it reliable for a million miles. But the manufacturers seem to be setting the bar low enough on that level.
What software/hardware are you using? Good for Isuzu? Kubota?
Texa off road. Check out shop talk section. I have not used Isuzu or Kubota ( had a chance at one but did not have the Kubota cable. Have done Deere cat Cummins and FPT.
OEM software 'that works'! Reasonable prices, IMO https://trukkscan.com/ In 2015, the Librarian of Congress approved an exemption to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act for land vehicles. The exemption allows modification of "computer programs that are contained in and control the functioning of a motorized land vehicle such as a personal automobile, commercial motor vehicle or mechanized agricultural vehicle … when circumvention is a necessary step undertaken by the authorized owner of the vehicle to allow the diagnosis, repair, or lawful modification of a vehicle function." 37 C.F.R. § 201.40(b)(6)
GOOD info. Stan.. Thanks.
The Right to Repair Bill that's going on in Nebraska has made the news here in Australia. JD claim you don't buy JD equipment you only buy the right to use. So if JD equipment fails at a crucial time say in a farming operation should they make good on the lost income, after all it's their equipment apparently.
Further to the above post, JD's right to use bs is probably how they circumnavigate the California consumer laws.
Has anyone tried Diesel Laptops ( http://www.diesellaptops.com/TEXA-C...ostic-Scanner-Laptop-Tool-TEXA-OHW-LAPTOP.htm ) that supply software for troubleshooting tractors (AG and Construction) (expensive) with interactive tests, and they claim you can calibrate injectors.
A new video has been posted that I found interesting. Big Green interacting with some of us complainers. Worth a careful read/listen if you have the time.
I think the problem is when there's a breakdown and time is critical. Most farmers look after their equipment when it costs hundreds of thousands. They can't wait 3 days for JD to send someone out because they are busy.
lately here, it seems like good harvest weather is hard to come by and short. we used to get 2 to 4 weeks of nice fall weather but for the last few years there hasn't been much. around my area a lot of crop is still out in the fields unharvested and guys pushed their equipment hard and still did not get done. when a machine goes down because of an electronic issue, the component may not be readily available because there are not enough immediately available due to other guys needing the same part at the same time in a 2 week time span
The letter read by the gentleman in the video is implying that farmers want access to the source code for their machines and that John Deere is right in not wanting to provide that information. The perspective is apparently from someone who works for John Deere and is they say is trying to provide a balanced viewpoint. In my opinion though the letter is likely from someone with an extensive professional background, such as an engineer. They gloss over many points and imply that farmers and ag people are just trying to get more out of their machine sizes rather than purchasing the larger machines with the higher horse power. Many issues are not talked about at all. Machines broken in the fields with no mechanics to come repair them or they have to wait a great amount of time for a part to repair it. The provision for field engineering to modify obvious flaws in design wasn't discussed. A great amount of words were used discussing modifications that make the machine non compliant with federal law. The kicker here is who is responsible for that, the manufacturer or the people who did the modification? In my mind the person in the video just became a back handed advocate of an manufacturer using gorilla marketing. The antidote to this if for people to fill up his comments section on YouTube with the truth.
More HP is useless if you don't have the weight and traction. Just someone trying to justify what their employer is doing. When machines cost 100's of thousands people aren't deliberately trying to make them unreliable. In most cases they just want to have the available tools required to fix them at a reasonable cost. Even if on warranty a lot of farmers are more than capable of doing proper repairs when time is of the essence. Saskatchewan used to require to parts within 48 hours but now it's 72 hours like some other provinces. I don't know what the rules are for needing a technician to bring a lap top out. https://www.country-guide.ca/equipm...-not-happy-with-your-farm-equipment-purchase/
why i like the old ones and fix what they need