Chico was running the hoe & digging in a large pile of dirt, I guess with the bucket and clutching the shuttle to get the bucket into the pile. From the looks of the dirt behind the wheels it was pushing pretty good, enough to spin the tires as it pushed against the dirt pile and then it just quit pushing. The lever would do nothing. I was on the tractor and drove up to it and saw the new fluid pouring out of the bell housing (Looked like it was coming out of the bottom but don't really know.) The other thing that was suprising as it was coming out of the return line. It might be the pressure side. The line that's closest to the rear and goes into the valve body that the shifter actuates the rod to change directions. Don't know how long it had been pouring fluid but it was empty. Put fluid back in it and it drained right back out of the bottom of the bell housing. Like I say, I think it was coming out of the bottom. It was pouring but it might have been out of the top and running down. We didn't even get it started. Now, let me say this: When we put the brakes back on they probably weren't adjusted right as the pedals weren't anywhere near level. The thing drove the same except that the "clutch" now disengaged at the very top of the throw. It was like you had adjusted the clutch rod on a standard dry clutch. Seems like I remember reading somewhere that the brake pedals and clutch have some interaction. Am wondering it things were working against each other and it blew a gasket. HELP!!! Anybody got any suggestions? Thanks, Packratc
This may be an interesting thread. I have been wondering what problems might arise from incorrect use of the clutch, and can you actually break something like this. Does the 580CK have the same Borg Warner design like the 580SE?
Thanks for the interest, Bowen. I don't know anything about the Borg Warner design or any other. I wasn't watching him when he was using it but I had noticed that he used the clutch a lot more than I ever had. I generally used it just to start off with or changing gears and used the shuttle to go back and forth. But then again I thought he was going to dig into this large pile of dirt, about 12 ft high, that had been there for about 5 years, with the hoe. We'd been moving the dirt before and had dug onto to it first and then moved it with the loader. He used to run a late model hoe for the local gas company. I guess he was used to whatever he did there. He was on it as he's a better operator than I am but he does tend to run equipment faster than I do. But then again, I may be more cautious as I'm paying. The hoe may have to be parked for a while as it may be more expensive than I'm able or willing to put into this year. Uncle Sam just took a sizeable bite out of me this week too.Packratc
Ok pack rat, I take it your CK is a torque converter model with power shuttle shift as opposed to manual clutch model with manual shuttle shift? If so, we really need more info of where the oil is coming from. The only holes that should be in the bottom of torque tube should be drain holes. There is a drain hole in converter housing, should have a plug in it though, although someone may have removed the pipe plug. If it's leaking oil from that hole, likely a failure of torque converter, converter o-ring, or shaft seal rings, would require splitting tractor to repair. Here's a few documents about brake and shuttle (clutch) pedal adjustment.
Thanks, Willie59. Good to hear from you. When I got to the machine he still had it running and the shuttle control would have no effect, foward or reverse. I right away noticed that fluid was coming from the metal line, the rear metal line on the left side of the, what I call the control valve. In your figure 6 that shows the cam adjustment for the flow spool, it would be the right or rear line in that figure. I haven't looked it up to see if that is the pressure or return. But the fluid was coming out like mad around that line. It was also coming out at the bottom of the bell housing pretty good. It's always leaked there but the leak had really increased. I had him cut it off and checked the fluid level. There was none showing on the stick. The metal line was not real tight but it was not tight either. It had never leaked before. Got the funnel and put in almost three gallons and noticed it running out of the bell housing in a steady stream. I put a 5 gallon bucket under it as it was brand new fluid coming out. We had just filled it with almost 6 gallons about an hour before. I had driven it and it had done fine, but I had not worked it. I'd just moved it and picked up a few rocks out of a new garden spot. I don't really think it will hold enough fluid long enough to move it to the shop. I know I should replace the filter, add fluid and check the "clutch' adjustment. The fluid coming out around the line really confuses me. Right now I'm of the opnion that the torgue converter broke. Digging into a hard dirt pile with the front bucket and the engine revved up and then "clutching it" to get to dig, I think would be like continually putting an automatic transmission in a car from neutral to drive over and over. Please don't let my guessing sway your opinion. I need your expertise and opinion without being biased by wild guessing games. I'd just be real suprised if this can be fixed just by taking the top off the torgue tube and replacing gaskets and springs. Thanks again, Packratc
Are you saying oil is coming out drain hole in bottom of converter housing? Is it coming out with engine running, or with engine shut off as well?
Willie59, I went back and read more thoroughly your info about adjusting the brakes and clutch. I had said in the earlier post that I knew the brakes were not adjusted and that the "clutch" petal released differently than it had before. Could these maladjustments have caused all this mess? Thanks again, packratc
Well, it seems there are a couple of issue in play here, hard to say if they're related at this point, but I think the oil leaking is the first thing that should be addressed.
Those lines connected to the shuttle clutch control valve go to the filter and oil cooler, they are under pressure. You gonna answer my question about oil leaking from converter housing in post #6???
Sorry about the omission, Wilie59. It's a little after 6AM so I haven't looked this morning to verify, but I guess you consider the foward oil drain as being in the torque converter area. When I last drained it I took both plugs out and drained them both. The steady stream of oil which I witnessed the other day was coming from the joint of the bell housing and the rear of the motor. Seems like I put a gasket there when I reinstalled the oil pan a few weeks ago. It's always dripped from that spot, a little bit. The drip was and is now hydraulic fluid. The only leak from the engine is a small one at the valve cover. I had not realized that the front drain plug was the torque converter, what I would call the bell housing, drain area. I know you can't drain the converter on these things. One more thing, it's always leaked pretty high up on the seal between the engine and the "bell housing." maybe I ought to try to fill it back up and make sure the leak is coming from the bottom and not all around the housing. This may sound stupid, but has anyone ever tried to loosen the bolts and lingage to seperate the engine and torque tube to replace the gasket without splitting the tractor? Thanks, Packratc
Ok packy, I've had to do some study on this machine, I'm not a CK or B expert by even the slightest stretch of imagination, clueless would more appropriate, so it's hit the books. From what I can tell in the service manual and parts pages, there is a gear mounted to rear of torque converter that drives the shuttle pump mounted to the underneath or front top cover, the cover where the shuttle control valve is. This pump would be located inside the converter housing area of torque tube. Since you have a gear on converter driving a gear on the pump, there has to be oil inside the converter housing to lubricate those two gears meshing. But it's likely a static level, level maintained by a hole connecting converter housing reservoir to remaining torque tube reservoir. If this is all correct, drain plug in bottom of converter housing should be in place, no open holes should be in converter housing, gasket between converter housing and engine block should be intact, and the machine would use a sealed starter. This view shows the gear on torque converter that drives shuttle pump, This view shows the shuttle pump mounted underneath front cover. It drops in area of converter housing shown by arrow, It would really be helpful if you could post a pic of just where you have a leak at converter housing.
Willie, your already a genius! I've been wondering why there was fluid in the bellhousing, how much was in there, and how it was supplied. I also did not know, hadn't tried to figure out, what drove the shuttle pump. I've not seen any of this as this is my first backhoe experience, but I've read and seen some diagrams. You'll get the pic of where the fluid is departing the hoe forthwith. Thanks, Packratc
Genius? LoL, no, just a legend in my own mind.
, , . These pics should be the dirt pile, like you're interested, that shows the marks in the hard dirt of digging with the bucket and "popping the clutch." That led to the drip that had been a stream into the 5 gallon bucket I put under it. The fluid was about an hour old. I saved about 1.5 gallons out of 6. That's the cheap stuff at $35 for 5 gallons. If I did this right this time, the last pic should be of the lines that go back to the control valve body. The one on the right (rear-most) was squirting oil like it was 10 cents a gallon. How did it do that? Is the valve messed up too? Packratc
Hey Willie59, I had to take 10 shots with my I-phone to get that drop about to drip off the old hoe. You might also note that I have learned how to rotate pics so they come out right-side up. (That makes no sense. If the right side were up it would be on the top.) I guess you'll have guess what I mean. Thanks for your time with the research and all. Packratc to Super Moderator, out!
I haven't worked on one of those tube line fittings like that before, kinda looks like some form of compression fitting, could be something wrong with fitting, or could be the tubing is cracked inside fitting. Removing that tube line and fitting should reveal what's causing the problem. And it's likely the fluid dripping off bottom of converter housing is oil running down side of housing from leaking fitting. Those tube lines carry the oil pressure to work the fwd/rev clutch packs in the shuttle, pressure would be between 275 and 550 psi depending on engine rpm. The shuttle pump draws oil from torque tube sump, pumps oil into the shuttle control valve body. The oil then leaves the shuttle control valve via the tube on the left in your pic, it runs to the oil cooler in bottom of radiator. Oil leaves the oil cooler and goes to filter, then returns to shuttle control valve on the right in your pic. If you had a serious oil leak anywhere along this path of oil flow, it would likely affect operation of fwd/rev clutch packs.
I took the fitting off after I saw the fluid coming out of it. It has a compression ferrell. Looked at it pretty good and it all looked fine. I just put it back together. I'll take it loose and look again. This is a pretty long way from the leak at the bottom of the bell housing. I didn't see any trace of fluid between there and the bell housing. It's supposed to rain here tomorrow but if I have a chance I can look it over again & remove the whole line and air-pressure test it. Is there any position that the rod that redirects the fluid in the valve body can be that would make the fluid "back" up and create undo or backward pressure on that fitting? Packratc
Those tubes are "under pressure" packy, unless you have the clutch pedal depressed, then fluid is dumped back to sump. Check your tubing closely, you could have a crack in the tubing, happens often with compression fittings.
One more thing, Willie59, I think I'll pick up a new filter tomorrow. I wonder if you completely plugged up a filter if the pump would create so much pressure in the system it would leak where ever it could. Don't know if the filter housing has a by-pass capability. Thanks again, Packratc
Pump has a pressure relief valve, not likely that's the problem, you have some problem with that compression fitting at shuttle control valve, you're gonna have to figure out what the problem is at that connection. Best of luck, Eastern time for me, gotta check out for the eve.
Didn't get to the tubing removal today. Tomorrow will try to tow the hoe to the shop and am going to remove the back hoe. Have spindle leaks to repair & thought it might be easier with the hoe off. Not sure that I made it clear that when I last tried to replace the hydraulic fluid in the torque tube it was running out of the bottom of the bell housing at the place in the above pictured. The engine was not running therefore no pressure. Just the leak. When & if I can get the hoe to the shop, or at least closer, I'll try it again. But the way it was leaking I didn't think I could get it full enough for it to move itself if the pump & clutches were working. I may try it, though. What's $35 more of hydraulic fliud at this point? Thoughts? Thanks, Packratc
Hmm, not sure then why it's leaking from converter housing, might check all the bolts that pull torque tube tight to rear of engine block, make sure none have come loose or popped the heads off of them opening a gap. I guess it's going to take some closer inspection on your end.
the possibility of it blowing the gasket is there too between engine block and bell houseing, im not sure if there is pressure there or not
I found a good pic posted by Phil (wish that guy was still around here), post #23, bottom left pic, shows the front cover removed from torque tube and you can see the gear on converter that drives shuttle pump. Bottom right pick shows oil pick up pipe and strainer fitted to underside of front cover that feeds oil to shuttle pump.
Thanks for the referral to Phil's old post. I'm familiar with that post, I think I have a copy of it in my notebook. If the thing will hold any fluid I'll readjust the brakes and clutch settings and see what happens. Wouldn't think there's be much fluid pressure in the bell housing. My bet is that it's gravity pressure only. Don't think the starters could stay dry. But, I'm just guessing. Thanks to you all for your advise and comments. Keep it coming. We might just mess up here and learn something as I go broke. Packratc
Broke? Wait...you can't...broke? Gimmie your address so I can send you a consultation fee invoice before you're totally busted. :tong
Willie59, If you'll go ahead and send it I'll pick it up at the Post Office. You might want to include the copy of the contract we have, although an oral contract is enforceable, so we'll both know the terms, conditions, and rate per hour that has previously been agreed upon. Until then I'll tell you the good news. As we attempted to get the hoe to the shop we had to start it to get some steering. We found out that it would pull itself a little bit. When we got it to the shop we put in a couple of gallons of fluid and it went back and forth. Obviously it was still leaking from the bell housing. We took the hoe off the tractor, which was easier than I thought. Did about 2 hours of pressure washing and now have to study the best way to split this baby. (Maybe I need Soloman.) My plan is to look inside that hoe and at least replace the engine/bell housing gasket, insure that the pump screen is clean, and follow the directions to try to determine the conditions of the clutches. Any suggestions on how to spit this thing? Packratc
Aw heck, the more I think about it, ain't worth the cost of a stamp, besides, post office would prolly do like my mail man does and deliver it to my neighbor. As for splitting the tractor, haven't busted one in half for many years, having the hoe off is helpful for sure. And it depends on what kind of equipment you have to work with. I used to block up and support the front half, engine and such, leave it sitting still, and use a heavy truck floor jack shoved in from the rear to support the rear half and move it away from front half.
Well Willie59, Thanks again for the advise. Spent about 6 hours yesteday & today cleaning the hoe with oven cleaner & the new power washer. It pulled itself onto the concrete slab at the shop until it had to go up a gravel incline. Without the weight on the back, no traction. Lowered the loader and pushed it with the International 424 tractor. I haveto admit here that it gets kinda scary with all the weight and trying to feel safe under and around it. I need your advise here as I think I've done something backwards. I raised the loader and blocked it up with angle iron. It's not all the way up but the bottom of the bucket is probably over 8 ft off the ground. Couldn't go all the way up as the roof of the car port is only about 10 ft. Put jack stands under the rear of the loader frame & removed the lower loader frame. The scary thing is that the jack stands are loose. Have used floor jacks and post jacks to try to distribute weight but it's not all the way on the jack stand on one side. Have looked and studied and have about decided that I should have the loader down instead of up. I've got the loader saftey chained to the boom truck and have moved that tension up and down little or no change. We don't want any suprises, like equipment shifting, as we unbolt the bell housing & such. Pictures to follow & would appreciate advise. The 8 bolts that attach the loader frame to the rear axle have been in there since 1967. Flame wrench, 3/4 impact, large sledge are the tools of choice. The nuts weren't as bad as the rust holding the bolts all the way through the axle housing. Packratc
I haven't split a CK or a B before, not much advice I can give specific to those machines, but I think I'd prefer the front bucket on the floor if I could work around it. With loader arms raised, as soon as you pop converter housing loose from engine, the front half will tilt right or left because front axle articulates, front bucket on floor would help stabilize this problem.
Sorry , i saw this too late but there is a better way,leave the loader & hoe on and dump the loader bucket all way set it on the floor take the loader frame loose at the front, remove the suction pipes & nipples from the frame in front of radiator, tap two wedges on top of the axle to hold it level, any jack under tranny floor jack under oil pan split it at bell housing roll front foward till it hits the bucket or the loader arm cross member cant remember whitch . This works on 530s,580s,580b maybe this will help on a later day.
Good point about the front axle articulating. Used to help a guy fixing tractors. We used 4x4 wooden wedges and drove them in from each side between the axle and the bolster. Made the axle stop pivoting on the support/pivot pin. I'm bothered by the fact that the rear loader frame does not want to settle on the jack stands. I don't want this thing to fall foward, piviting on the front wheels when the last bell housing bolt comes out. It needs to be and stay level so I can roll the rear axle and torque tube out the back and then roll it back in place without a big hassle linning up the bolts and such. The illustrations in my disc manual show the loader arms down and, I think, chains holding something. Even though they are illustrations, I need to go back & look at them. Thanks, Packratc
Never tried to bring that much out the back; cant say , Good luck
blew the photos I messed up the photos worse than ever. My learning curve is an oval. Packratc
First sideways photo is jack stands under rear of loader frame. Second sideways photo is aluminum cheater bar laying in backhoe mounts & showing bolts that have to come off rear of axle housing.(Note jack stands again.) Worst photo is upright and hard to see due to shadows. Pictures the lower rear loader mounts after fighting out rusty bolts. Removing these essentially detaches loader from rear axle. Third sideways photo I probably shouldn't have onclude. It's of the axle, front view, after the bolts and lower loader frame is off. Last sideways photo is confusing as it's the junk winch truck holding up the junk loader bucket. Newly sandblasted and painted "B" fenders and ROPS are left of backhoe. My apologies again for the pics mess. I had it the other night but missed a step tonight. I tried to edit the post but that process was lost on me also. Thanks for your understanding, sympathy, and am always open for help & suggestions. Packratc
Couldn't "flip" the pics for ya packy, best I could do was sort them out for ya.
Photos tonight aren't too hot but I'll try to put them in correctly.We seperated the hoe today and I think we did it unconvetionally, but it worked. We took the fuel tank off with the rear end & torque tube. Then we removed the tank. We left the loader tied up to the winch truck which I now wish we'd tried it with the loader down. It seemed to me that the weight was not distributed well. The winch truck was essentially lifting at the mid-mounted loader arms which seemed to make the rear of the loader frame light. This much weight feeling unstable or unbalanced makes for a stressful day. Pics are next. Packratc
, , ,
At least they're all right side up tonight. Sorry I made one of them larger than the others. The one showing the hoe spit is too busy to tell much about what's going on. But, I was feeling so relieved at this point I had to include it. The torque converter has four small holes on face. Two are threaded and two are just holes. I thought it looked like fluid had been coming out of the non-threaded holes, but I'm not sure. I have to admit that at this point I don't know what I'm to be looking for to determine if this thing has problems other than the gasket around the bell housing leaking excessively. Hints, suggestions, & knowledge are hereby requested. Thanks, Packratc
There should be six bolts that bolt nose to converter body. There would likely be two open thread holes opposite each other to act as pusher holes to assist removing nose from converter, not sure what two open/non-threaded holes would be for, may be of no consequence anyway. Did you notice a spot in converter housing gasket that looked suspect? I wonder if you should consider taking converter apart and fitting new internal seals since you're in there, don't know how big a job that would be, or the cost either, just one of those things that would haunt me after going through the work to bust a tractor.
I have to admit that I left it today & never even looked at the bell housing gasket. On the outside, as you can see in the pics, the converter looks "normal". I need to know what could be wrong with the converter for me to take it apart & look for. Remember, the hoe would go foward & back and we drove it where it sits except for it slipping in the gravel incline which is new and over two feet deep. That's when I had to push it with the tractor. The back hoe was off so there was no weight on the rear end. There's a possibility that the thing would be fine if I fixed the leaks and put it back together. I need to know what to look at and what I'm looking for. I'm not asking much, am I? Thought I would take a look inside the torque tube and see if there's much trash in there although there's never been an indication of the screen being plugged. I also don't think the hoe would move at all if the pump were not functioning. How do I measure the clutches for wear? Simple little questions like that keep coming to mind. Thanks, Packratc
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you "must" take converter apart, just one of those questions that would rattle around in my head. It's a bit of work to bust a tractor, you're now looking at converter on the ground, "should I disassemble or no?". I ask this question because of age of machine, and the fact there are some seals inside of it, a lot of heat gets generated inside a converter that makes seals get hard over time. Then again, may be no necessary reason to take converter apart, just pondering the question.
Packy, I looked over the cross section view of converter, it looks like the seals in converter are the steel ring type seals. This makes me kind of agree with you, if machine will move with no issues, I'd lean toward no problems with converter, no real need to disassemble. Still have to resolve the leak though, I guess you really need to focus on that gasket and any flaws in mating surface.
Thanks, Willie59, for getting back to me. I didn't find all the bell housing bolts excessively tight, but not too lose either. It was already leaking. I'd say the way it was being used that it took a lot of good hard jolts. Why would a reasonably tight gasket begin to leak a lot more. I'm wondering if all of a sudden there was more fluid being leaked or pumped into the bell housing area and what would do that. I'm of the opinion that I can put it back together and a new gasket will seal the bell housing/engine surface. But, what if there's more fluid going in there than there was before or there's supposed to be. Why is there more? Where's it coming from? Also, if I out it back together as is, has it running out of fluid deteriorated the clutches and will it no longer push the way it waw supposed to? When I bought this hoe I was of the opinion if you could put the hoe in gear and pushed against a large tree and the hoe kept pushing until the tires dug into the ground substantially, then the shuttle shift was probably in OK condition. Also that the hoe would respond to the reverse/foward without hesitation at reasonable RPM. This hoe did and that was the main reason I bought this particular hoe. I'd like to feel somewhat confident that it will do that when I put it back together and, that I've stopped the leaks. What would make more fluid come into the bell housing than it did before? Am I right in assuming that the hoe won't move unless the charge pump is working properly. If say, the base gasket to the charge pump were leaking would it leak over into the bell housing and the hoe still move? I'm shooting in the dark here. Will someone please turn on the lights. Thanks for your thoughts, research, and sympathy. Keep those cards and letters coming in! Packratc
I'm not qualified to answer these questions pack, I don't have experience with these machines. I'm simply assuming there is supposed to be oil in the converter housing to lubricate gear on converter driving the gear on shuttle pump. If that's so, it would likely be a static level that matches level of fluid in other parts of torque tube. If the bolts that mount converter housing to engine block were not torqued tightly, it could open gap between mating surfaces under hard frame loads, this in itself would compromise gasket seal. It's not likely that running it out of fluid would damage clutch packs in power shuttle. There has to be sufficient fluid under pressure from shuttle pump to overcome springs in clutch packs to engage clutch disks, lack of fluid or pressure could not depress springs and even "slip" the clutch disks. Does the clutch pressure gauge on the dash work?
Packrat - left you alone for a little while & look what you have done! I have not been inside one of these for a LONG time. I would suggest the convertor be opened up - the parts are not too expensive to reseal & if you put it back together & same leak is there - you will kick yourself. Best to dot your i's & cross your t's in this instance. Couple of places to look - (I've borrowed willie's pic) 1) the pump drive gear (9) has a bushing in it, if they are excessively worn, this can create leakage. Also where the bushing runs on the carrier (8) they can get a nasty wear groove, if it has a groove this requires attention. 2) where the bolts (11) for the cover, screw into the main housing - look for cracks at each drilling - this creates leakage. #24 is a seal & i can't be certain what job it actually has - but goes without saying - do them all. Have you had a better look at that compression fitting yet? - try to pressurize the line to see if cracked.
Good to hear from you Alrman! Thanks for the detailed explanation as to what could cause leaks in the converter. I'll call the dealer Monday & see what a converter seal kit costs. If there is a leak at any of the places you pointed out, would that put fluid into the bell housing at a greater rate and therefore speed up the already leaky situation? No, I haven't checked out the steel return line yet. It's just hanging there. I'm not too worried about fixing it as I think I can easily replace the whole thing if need be. I did find something that looked like small metal bits or some material ( I was worried clutch material) when I took both of those lines loose. It looked kinda like metal would sticking to the end of the lines if the lines were magnatized. But, the material, when placed between the finger & thumb and rubbed or ground, did not feel like metal grit or anything real hard.
Willie59, Good point you made when stating that the clutches couldn't very easily damage themselves from lack of fluid They couldn't come together to slip if there was not enough pressure to activate the cylinder to bring them together. No pressure gauge on the dash. I have one & it will be on it as it goes back together. Thanks again for the advise. Alrman, do you think the converter kits are available aftermarket which may be a better price than with a dealer? Thanks again for joining in on this project. Packratc
Repair kits will only be genuine - if still available, may need to buy individual items. Yes, if problems in post #46 are present they will put fluid in bell housing (that's why I suggested to check them..... )
Thanks again Alrman. I'll let you know what the dealer says tomorrow. Packratc
, , I've just posted pics of this afternoon's activity. The first (I hope) is of the torque tube looking down onto the torque converter and it shows the gear that runs the pump. The second pic shows the pick up tube which is partially blocked and has a ripped screen. I know you all have seen similar photos in previous threads but these are so colorfull and it helps to share my pain and my many errors. Packratc
, , I hope these pictures are of the shuttle shift and the front plate resting on its top showing the pump which is attached to it. Of course you can see the end of the pick up tube which I think is in the upper left hand quadrant of the photo. Packratc
Oops, the screen on the end of the pick up tube is in the lower left quadrant of the photo. It's a nice shot of my shoes too.
Yep, pick up screen looks a bit messed up, looks like oil has a bit of water in it as well, is the 4 speed shifter boot in good condition?
, The last photo in todays comentary is the one the provokes the most question. It shows the transmission input shaft at the end of the shuttle clutch packs. On the right you should be able to see the snap ring. To the left of it are several shims, maybe 4 or 5. The manual, as I read it, says that there ought to be a minimum of .025" and a maximum of .045" between the power shuttle unit and the snap ring. Looks like I have several shims and a least an eighth of an inch of play. Do I add more shims? Is there a maximum number of shims you can add? Do you have to add shims because there's clutch disc wear? Does the fact there's too much clearance here have anything to do with the gears grinding everytime you go from neutral into a gear to use the hoe? In other words does this too much clearance keep the clutches from totally disengaging?
Well Rats! I got a the photos the load rigtht tonight except the one that I described a direction. The snap ring & shims are at the top. I called the dealer today & the torque converter kit is not available. I ordered the seals and gaskets individually. Haven't ordered the shims yet as I thought I'd get you all's advice first. By the way, are there similar shims in front of the shuttle? I can't find them listed and that part of the shaft is hidden from view until it's dismantled. I also ordered a new gasket for the bell housing/engine ($18). Need to remind you all that I thought early on that we were taking this thing apart wrong. Most folks, by their descriptions, leave the fuel tank & steering wheel assembly with the engine. We took it out with the torque tube. This necessitated taking it off now, it's just 4 bolts, but you have to lift it off. It's a little heavy and a lot awkward. I'm not saying that all these "wrong" moves were or have been all that bad but I just want the next guy to know that there's more than one way & so far it's not been fatal. Thanks for all your interest. Packratc
I have already replaced the shifter boot. The fluid is full of water due to my pressure washing it about 6 times. I've been putting oven cleaner on it to get it clean but also I want to remove the cheap paint the previous owner had put on it. The original paint on these things was pretty good stuff. Packratc
What you are looking for here is clearance of .025"-.045" - you need to add shims. Try to adjust to near minimum spec. The excessive movement will not affect drive, but may affect the sealing rings that seal between the shuttle & housing.
Thanks Alrman, I guess I'll be measuring the gap and ordering more shims. They come in three different sizes the largest of which is .010". That shim is $18 & change and the other smaller ones go down at about 16 & 14 dollars per copy. I gather from what your saying that if there ends up being 8 or 9 shims in there it won't hurt as long as the minimum clearance is achieved. I'm not sure what you mean by the "sealing rings" between the shuttle and housing. Could you point those sealing rings out by the part number in the illustration? I'd appreciate it. Also would you confirm that this means seperating the shuttle housing from the transmission and removing the shuttle from the rear of the housing. I gather I then would remove the snap ring and add the necessary shims. Would you suggest measuring the clearance while the shuttle is in place or will the same clearance be present when the shuttle assembly is out of the case? I mentioned that the gear shift grinds and at times it's hard to get in gear when starting out with the hoe after starting it in neutral. In a standard shift truck it acts like the clutch is not disengaging all the way and the clutch arm would need adjusting. How do I fix that while I'm in here or is that a matter of adjustment somewhere else? Thanks again for your sage suggestions. Packratc
You could cut those shims from shim stock or even from a tin can - at a pinch These are the seal rings I mentioned - they control fwd & rev oil delivery to shuttle. You've got it down this far packrat - I would reseal the shuttle also - it's only money & the public wants to both learn & be entertained at your expense ......
OK Alrman, I'll look up the seal rings tomorrow and order them. Is there a kit to seal the shuttle or are these the only seals it takes? You know, you're right! It is only money, money I don't have, but I'll spend it anyway. I'll bet I can get a washer big enough to go around the shaft for those shims. The gap looked that large to me. What about the gear grinding? Got an opinion on that? Do you really think anyone is learning from all this pain? Are they being entertained? I, personally, am learning a lot. I'm getting better at getting diesel, grease, oil, and hydraulic fluid stains out of denim. Fortunatly my wife has not yet caught me cleaning my finger nails with her electric toothbrush. Hopefully we'll hear from Knoxville, TN so we'll all be on the same page. Thanks for your help. Packratc
Packrat, you stay in a mess all the time it seems... :bouncegri What I want to see is a picture of Chico. I think he is imaginary.. Actually I need to see a picture both you AND Chico together.
How true... I am thinking of breaking mine in the future to reclutch and reseal the shuttle and convertor, would love to learn from your experiences (mistakes). :drinkup Dave
Alrman. I called the dealer and we went through my previous order and we had ordered the shaft seals already. I still haven't ordered the spacers at the rear as I may try to make them to save a dollar. I also still haven't measured how much of a gap I need to fill in. I was going to order the gasket between the shuttle housing and the manual transmission but the parts man says the shuttle comes out the fron t and I probably won't need to split it there. What say You? Chico pointed out today the the holes in the round center plate look like they were/are leaking fluid. Such leakage would be into the bell housing. I think I mentioned early on that they looked like they might have a little fluid seepage. The seals replacement in the torque converter should fix that. Thanks again, Packratc
Chico is pictured in #38 as are the leaking holes that are mentioned in #39. Packratc is pictured in blue jeans and black shoes, size 10, in this thread. One must respect the rules laid out in the agreement with the Witness Protection Program. Thanks, Packratc
packrat, continue splitting the tractor into smaller pieces & do the job properly. It's easier to do it now than to have to pull it ALL apart again in near future. The gear clashing problem is usually associated with drag through the shuttle - eg sticky piston - broken plates. If one of the 3 shaft seal rings are broken - pressure goes to fwd & rev at the same time & causes drive problems.
My thoughts exactly. If I'm going to go through the trouble of busting a tractor, I'm going to fix everything while I'm in there. It's no fun kicking ones own arse for not doing so. :yup
Thank you Alrman & Willie59, now I've got to find out what a plate is and how it is broken and then how a piston sticks and where. I do know I'm in trouble if it's one of Mom's best china and its even got a nick in it I'm gonna be buried with this backhoe and soon! I'm not going to take anything more apart until I get in some parts. I'm afraid being in the geriatric set is dangerous when it comes to remembering what goes where. In the mean time I'll scrape some grease here and there & consider painting here and there. If I can't fix this thing I want it to lookk good as a yard ornament. No one has mentioned replacing the clutch packs, and I don't want to due to the expense, but if all this other has gone bad or leaks, how do I know they're good? Thank you again, Packratc
I'm kinda the other way around packy, I like to take things apart before I order parts, I want to see every thing to determine what parts are needed and order everything in one shot. As for remembering where everything goes, pictures with the camera during disassembly, take notes, make drawings of how things are oriented.
You're right, Willie59! I have taken some pictures but no notes nor drawings. I've never been any good at those sort of things. My mind works like I can put it together if I understand the function or how it works. If it makes no sense to me I'm lost from the gitgo. Chico & I have talked about this and I thing we left it at, "Surely to God between the two of us we should be able get it back together." We'll see! Packratc
Yes, pics are invaluable to note orientation of components packrat. But sometimes, when you're disassembling components, you may run across a washer with a bevel on it or something, some part that needs to orient in a certain direction and not be re-installed reversed, that's when making notes is handy.
Thanks again, willie59, Noteworthy! Packratc
YES!!!! we are learning I hope not for further use, and the entertainment?? YES!! LOL its interesting seeing how these things work. I am sorry to see you spending the money as I am sure these parts arent cheap, keep up the good work and remember how it all goes Chicko:beatsme
Bowen, did you and Mikey catch the picture of Chico? His parents live about 300 yards down the road and he & Vera live on another road & their place adjoins me in the back in the woods. Chico can do anything, but he'll also do anything! I've known them for 35 years. It seems that he prefers not to work full time for a large company. He took off the other day to fix something in someone's barn, he repaired someone's hay elevator a couple of weeks ago, after they had run over it. Soon he'll be in the hay field fro his brother who has a horse barn down the road. He'll build a barn, roof, or repair anything. We're also adding on to my shop & going to build a log cabin out of telephone poles, after we finish the pond, fence around the pond, and he'll probably help me build the front end on my Dodge diesel truck. He is real handy! But, he makes more money than I do. Everyone needs a Chico just like everyone needs a 45 year old backhoe. Oh, I need to tell you that another retired guy asked me the other day, why I had a backhoe that seems to be costing me an arm & a leg? He asked why couldn't I just hire a backhoe guy to come out and do the work and forget it? I shouldn't have tried as I knew he wouldn't catch on, but I explained that it's a tool. That one day I may want to take down one tree, and the next month I may want to plant three. I may pour concrete, grade the driveway, or load scrap metal. He just looked at me and shook his head. He thinks I'm nuts. And I agree. But I've not asked him why he's had two face lifts, and dyes his hair, and watches rented black & white horror movies every night. I really don't understand why one nut doesn't understand another nut. Do you? It's either walnuts or pecans, who cares? Packratc
I'm not sure what to make of all this entertaining information. I do still need to see a photo of just you and him standing side by side. :waving
Bowen, What to make of all this information is that two folks have asked about Chico and I thought that you all might want some insight into his inclusion. As a hobbiest with a backhoe, to me, there has to be more than just work on this tool and then talk about it with strangers through my fingers. The human aspect of you all, and myself, as to why we suffer through this hard and expensive work, just to dig a hole and move some gravel. We were doing the same thing in sand boxes at age three and we still haven't gotten over it. Those things interest me. Why and how I involve Chico, and he ain't cheap, is also kind of crazy and telling. Obviously, I know almost nothing about the folks that read this rot but I wonder why they do and why they have a backhoe. Is everone on here making a living with a backhoe or working on them? Do they want pictures of nuts and bolts and explanations such as "place tab A into slot B", I can't imagine that, that's why they make manuals if that's what they want. And here I am not giving you more information for you to not know what to make of it. (I can't make sense of that sentence either.) On this end, what should I make of your request of needing a picture of Chico and me standing side by side. It's not that I particularly care about my photo being out there, but your imagination is far, far, better. I'm just a poor retired redneck with a penchance for working on old junk. I also wonder who reads this junk and why they have old backhoes and have friends like Chico. Such things makes it worth while getting up in the morning and putting up with having oil wander down past your elbow into your armpit trying to put in at cross-threaded bolt. And then, dammit, to find somebody had put in a metric bolt when they couldn't find the right one. Doesn't that place abrasions on your buttocks? Packratc
Packratc, what part of Tenn are you in, I go to Pikeville and Dayton Mtn. 3 times a week thats about an hour from Knoxville just curious
I'm about 45 miles East of Nashville. Packratc
I just listed a back hoe trailer in the FOR SALE section that you may need Packratc:thumbsup You and Chico can drive down here and pull that baby home. It'll give you something else to work on and write about.
Thanks for the notification & good luck with selling your trailer. I'm not looking for a backhoe trailer. I figure if I have a trailer then it's more of an invitation for friends to borrow said backhoe or for me to come over and perform a "small" job for free. With a hoe as small & old as a 580CK it really doesn't need to leave this little plot of dirt and rock. Would also imagine that my insurance company would not like it. They wouldn't take on a wrecker or dump truck for me. I'll bet you could start a long thread on this site asking for stories relating to both unfortunate and funny things that have happened to hoe owners about being asked to or while performing favors with their equipment. How far are you from Chattanooga? Packratc
Yes, very true about everyone wanting something done for free they dont even take the fuel into concideration
Packratc, How did this turn out? Is she getting back together? BTW: 45 min east of Nashville? You must be close to one of my favorite lakes, Center Hill!! Dave
Just got the parts from the dealership yesterday. Guess it's time to get the nerve up and take the shuttle out. Will try to get some pics & keep you all up to date. Dave, I guess I'm about an hour from Center Hill. It is a nice lake. packratc
Well this old hoe is spread all over the place. Some parts come out easy, others hard. At this point I'm concerned about the wear rings inside the torque tube from the sealing rings on the main shaft. Thought I had a picture of them but when I got inside with my telephone/camera you really couldn't tell much. I thought there would be three rings inside that housing but it looks to me like only two and only two wear grooves. What's the test on how deep the wear grooves can be toterated? Are these the reason that it ground the gears when I was going from neutral into 1st gear? I'll try to get better pictures of the wear grooves in the morning. The torque converter hasn't come apart to easy and I had to go in town to get some new snap ring pliers. Will let you know how that goes later today. This thing has been into before as it has silicone sealer in several places. Looks like a new part in the converter. More later--Advise is greatly appreciated. Packratc
packrat, the seal rings for the shuttle shaft have hooks on them, to hold them in a locked position - were they still in place? There is no spec for the amount of wear permissable in the housing - but if you can feel it with your fingernail - it is too much. It really should not be more than a polished mark in the bore. To repair the grooves, the housing should be bored & sleeved - just what you wanted to hear, I know ....... Are you saying there was only 2 rings fitted? Why is there only 2 wear marks ???? Which ones are they?
, .
Started this evening posts by trying again to upload pics. The one on the left is the splitting of the torque tube. You'll note that there is blue silicone present on the gasket surface. Someone has lurked here before! The second photo is the torque converter coming apart. The aluminum looks new to me. But that's perhaps wishfull thinking. Packratc
, This photo is from the inside of the torque converter, if I remember right. This an $80 copper bushing.
, I hope this is a pic of where the above bushing runs. I took some emory cloth to it and cleaned it up pretty well. It's my guess that the grooves and wear are from dirty filter and fluid. Let me know if you think differently. This probably would have run forever but I'm following you all's advise and fixing everything I can & can afford to. This way I can achieve all hoe owners destiny. That is: To have at least twice as much money in my hoe than it'll ever bring. Packratc
, This is a poor picture of the inside of the torque tube where the three piston-ring-like rings run. They are on the main shaft and support it in the machined surface in the torque tube. They are mentioned previously by me and the parts guy had told me he thought he had ordered them. I found that he had not and we re-ordered the kit today. I was wrong when I thought there was only two marks in the machined surface. I found the third. It is a whole lot lighter than the other two and I think it is the nearest in the picture and is right at the end of the machined surface. (Sorry I left my manual in the shop and can't recall the correct names for these parts.) I think that Alrman told me earlier that if these are not in good shape it could be the cause of the gear grinding I'm experiencing when shifting the manual transmission. Am I remebering right, Alrman? Packratc
MMM- I sent the photo in a larger format and it came out better than I would have thought. These iPhones are something else. You can see the shadow near the edge of the nearest end. Now, one can feel the other two "grooves" that appear but you can't catch a fingernail on them. I called the dealership and they don't sell a bushing kit, which we already knew, and they don't provide specs on the needed diameter if you should choose to sleeve it. Alrman mentioned the sleeving process this morning. I guess one would bore it with a boring bar, drill it for the, I guess, oiling passages in the photo, chill the part and tap it in there. Does that sound right? Another long post is next. Packratc
IF you all will remember post #55 there is a picture of the input shaft as it goes into the transmission. There one finds a snap ring and shims that space between the shuttle and the transmission. The manual calls for .025 to.045 clearance and to add as many shims as necessary to get it there. There are already three shims on mine and the feeler guages indicate that the remaining clearance is .074. I though that to be huge. I ordered three more shims. Now, If you all remember, I got to this point because after hard use all of a sudden this old hoe started leaking fluid out of the bell housing like mad. I'm wondering that due to this .074 clearance and the hard jolting it had been taking, that the third of the rings, the one that ran near the edge of the machined suface in the torque tube, didn't jump rearward out of the surface. I don't know if I explained this in a language that can be understood, but I'm posing it as a question as to its possibility. Would like comments on this if you will. And now the proposition of machining and bushing the torque tube. I ain't buying a new one. There's a good chance of any used ones being in the same condition. If I put it back together with the new rings will the additional shims move the rings onto virgin bored territory. Please pass on your opinions and if I've got the roll of the shims all wrong, please let me know. Has anyone on line made the machined sleeve that's needed? Thanks as always. Packratc
Re oil grooves - can't really see how bad they are packrat, were the hook rings broken?? The grooves will not cause problems on their own, but if the rings were broken & causing leakage between FWD & REV then that could lead to problems - I hope you are dismantling & checking the shuttle. The theory you have about the excessive end float on the shuttle shaft, causing your oil leak .... never seen one do it before, but I can't recall seeing a shaft with so much clearance either. Concerns me a little why it has so much clearance - never seen more than a few shims there. You should be able to see if it was the problem by placing the shuttle in the housing & moving it around to simulate the play it had? Whenever I have had one of those housings repaired - they were taken to a machine shop & they sorted it out. The sleeve is usually pegged in place for extra security.
Alrman, Yes I know it's difficult to really see how bad the groves are but you can not catch a fingernail on them. The rings were all present and non of the three were broken. The one that is closest and left the least groove, barely an abrasion had a broken hook. Looks almost like the hook was worn off. I'll see if I can't get a picture in the morning. I too was suprised by how much clearance there was and wondered it the other end didn't have a provision for shims also. I thought that the picture I had previously posted showing the three shims indicated pretty well how much clearance there was present. Of course the feeler gauges don't lie. Want to remind you that this thing was going back and forth from foward to reverse with good solid shifts. Even after we towed it backto the shop and it had very little fluid in it it would shift. We put a couple of gallons in it and it shifted good. Although, Chico said it would sort of "grab" a littel bit after it was already in gear, almost like it was binding against itself. I took it as the fluid being very low. As it was leaking like a sieve we only tried it for about 45 seconds and it pulled its self to the shop except it couldn't pull the last steep gravel grade as it was spinning the tires in fresh deep gravel. My one ton dually truck spins there too. I haven't taken shuttle apart to check it as I don't really know what I'm looking for. Can you give me hint? What kind of money are we talking about to sleeve the housing? I'll have to admit that right now when the rings and spacers get here I'm tempted to put it back together and go with it. Would like an opinion. Thanks, Packratc
Well Alrman, After the morning's missions were complete I asked my wife to take a good photo of the shuttle shaft seals. Have been trying to load it and the site says the photo is too large. I guess too many pixels. I'll keep trying but the photo will show you that the ring closest to the shuttle has the locking clip broken off on one side while the other two are locked together. The broken ring is the one that would have ridden outside of the machined portion of the torque tube if the exessive play in the shims could have allowed it. I'm just guessing here, you know. I don't think I have anything that shows me a breakdown of the shuttle. If you do, could you or someone send it to me? I'm looking for the pistons, or something, the make that clutches compress. I wann' eyeball 'em. Thanks, I'm waiting for earth shaking advise to solve all the world's and get this hoe on the road. Thanks, Packratc
packratc.....I have been following your threads but I don't have any experience with your machine. It's a good chance that you have a resizing program already on your computer but here is a link to a free one that I like. You just need to resize/resample your pics to 640X480. http://www.irfanview.com/ Good luck with your machine.
Sorry packrat, I don't have anything better, in the way of pictures or diagrams, than can be seen in the service manual or at the online parts manual - I take it that you already have these? The one hook ring being broken - if it HAD slipped out of the housing, it should have held/retained the shuttle shaft in that position & stopped it going back into it's proper place. You should have found it in that position. Like I said earlier, put the shaft back in the housing & see if the senario is possible. Something else to check - the grooves in the shuttle shaft can sometimes wear a little, making the hook rings a little sloppy in them. They are supposed to be a very snug fit. This excessive slop will allow the hook to undo itself while the ring is situ. This could also be a problem that needs attention. I can't recall how much it costs to sleeve the housing - I don't get to work on many CK's these days, but you should expect to pay anything between $600 - $800+ for the repair. A sleeve would need to fabricated (material costs); housing bored; sleeve fitted & pegged - maybe 6-8hrs work. Try calling some shops with dimensions of the bore & ask for a ballpark costing. I know they will say "we need to see it"....... How deep do you think the grooves might be? Can you get your hands on some flexi/plasti gauge & measure it?
Packy, I've got some diagrams and cross sections that may be of interest to you, but we have a new printer and I ain't yet figgered out "HOW TO GET THE DAMN THING TO SCAN AND SEND DOCUMENTS TO MY COMPUTER!" :Banghead Will keep working on it.
, Just got home but my wife had told me earlier how to compress the photo. Thanks for the tip, though, OldandWorn.
I guess I'd have been better off taking the photo with my iPhone after all. I would have made it medium size. But, you can see that the top rings are clasped together and the bottom is not due to the hook on the left side of the clasp being broken off. You can also see that someone has inscribed some numbers or letters on the shaft. Looks like it was done with one of those vibrating-type inscribers that some folks mark their tools with. Of course it could be factory. If not, another indication that someone's been here before. Alrman, I'm not sure what functions these rings serve other than support the shaft through the torque tube. When you shift from foward to reverse or to neutral, does the shaft move in this bore. From our conversations I gather that it does and these rings slide fore and aft at each shift. How far do these rings move in the machined bore when the shift takes place? By the marks on the bore they can't have move more than 3/16's of an inch either way. If I'm correct and this is their action, does the clearance between the shuttle and the stopping snap ring (.025 to .045) dictate the distance of their movement? Another question, as the clutches wear does the body of the entire shuttle pack get shorter and does that change the location of these rings as to where they would ride in the bore? All for now, I need to think up some more wandering questions to confuse us all. Thanks, Packratc
, This is another, less compressed photo of the shuttle shaft rings and the bottom has the broken clasp on the left side. Thanks for bearing with me on these as I'm trying to learn all about this sending photos thing. Packratc
Packy, those are oil pressure seal rings, not shaft support rings. They are very picky about surfaces they "seal" against. Slight groove in sealing surface, a groove that your fingernail can't detect, no worries. But if its a serious groove in the sealing surface, not good. And why am I still awake at 1:30 EST??? LoL
Packrat, The hook rings can also be called 'oil control rings'. The shaft has 2 seperate drillings that run to the clutch packs 1 x FWD & 1 x REV. when you select Fwd or Rev oil is sent to the corresponding clutch pack through the oil galleries. To get the oil into a spinning shaft, it must go in between these oil control rings to deliver the oil pressure to the FWD or REV clutch pack. So if the rings/housing are not in good shape, oil pressure is lost at this point & affects the drive of the transmission. BTW the clearance on the middle & lower rings looks a little excessive - will the hooks undo while in the groove? Is there any wear on the actual hook rings, that a new ring will make look better in the groove? The end float you had on that shaft was WAY too much, & seems abnormal - there might be a reason but without seeing the situation with my own eyes, is difficult to explain why. The excessive movement will cause problems with those rings.
Thanks Willie59 & Alrman, Oil control rings they are. That's the sorta things I need to learn. Do you mean the side clearance is excessive? I hooked & unhooked the rings while pushing the opposite side of the ring in so the clasping side was sort of "out of the groove." Guess I'll have to compare them to the new ones when they come in. As to how bad the wear marks are in the housing the measurement of the fingernail detecting them is a little subjective.
Well, I lost most of the post I was typing and all of the one I typed to replace it. That's what I need. I need this computer machine to screw me up just like the old hoe out in the garage. More later when I rejuvinate. Packratc
Packrat, these are resized diagrams of Rockford power shuttle, I can email you the full size diagrams if you would like to have them for reference. Cross section view of power shuttle Exploded views of power shuttle disassembled showing piston (item 10 and 19) partially assembled showing clutch packs fully assembled showing output clutch drums
Willie59, You are the man! I have an old parts manual and a repair manual on disc that I bought on line. Neither has this breakdown that I have found. I'm going to send some more pics here in few minutes. You'll see why I need them. (Not the pics, your diagrams.) Are there instructions somewhere that give specifications like meassurements/clearances like between shims and lock rings and things like that? Incidently, I measured the side clearances on the shuttle shaft oil rings. The closest side clearance was .019 and the widest was .022. I think the widest was the middle one. No matter, they're getting replaced and I'll measure the new ones when I get them in the groove. Let me work on these pics. Thanks, Packratc
, , , I think these are three photos that I just took of the shuttle clutch discs. There are three more but I want to make sure these load correctly. Packratc
MMMM--I guess the first two are dupicates or so close I can't tell the difference. The pic in the upper right is the tell tale one. I think that little hunk is clutch surface material. More to come, unfortunatly. Packratc
Just a wild guess on my part, but I'd ask the possibility that the hook on that oil ring snapped because the ring floated outside the torque tube housing from excessive play in power shuttle (lack of shims). Question is, why is there so much clearance at the transmission input shaft snap ring and shims? If it requires more shims than is typically required, why?
Yeah, it looks like the friction material is thin and flaking off. Just wondering if you noticed the button but you can also preview your posts before submitting them and see anything that you would like to change.
, , , These are also very telling even to the untrained eye. I think the first two (Remember, I'm just hoping I know what pics will appear in what order.) will show you chips or hunks of clutch facing material that has been "ripped from useful existence" only to meander throughout the system to be deposited at the end of the ripped screen at the end of the pump pickup or to be saved for me as an expensive reminder in the filter in front of the radiator. I'll anxiously await their discovery. I think the last photo is the same discussed material that has been deposited on the end of my cheap replaceable bladed pocket knife. I quit carrying good ones years ago when a buddy borrowed mine and then turned his back to his task of removing a screw. When he gave the knife back it, of course, had the tip of the blade broken off, and then he walked 10 steps to the tool box to get a screwdriver. He grinned and said that they don't make them like they used to. Thus I carry cheap knives. That way I'm not tempted to give them back to folks in a sharp & violent way. Any who, that aside in the past, on to spend another $500 on an old hoe. Does anyone see any other option? I guess when I put in the new clutch discs it will answer my question if that will close up the shims required on the shuttle shaft. Will it change the location of the oil sealing rings as to where they ride in the machined bore of the housing? I'm awaiting advise, sympathy, prayer, and donations. Oh, I must thank my wife for allowing me to use her new camera that I bought for her birthday in March. That left me $500 poorer but look what it did for our viewing pleasure and education. Packratc
Willie59, That has been my theory for a while, that the end play could allow the oil ring to slip out the end of the machined bore. Then when gear was shifted back it couldn't go back in and part of the clasp was broken off. The closest one, the one broken, is the one that made the slightest mark in the machined bore and the closest to the end of the bore. If it indeed was outside of the bore it would follow that the fluid would not be contained and it would gush foward into bell housing area to leak out faster. I still would like some knowledge concerning the question if I replace the clutches will it help in taking up the shuttle end play and will it move the positions where the oil rings ride in the machined bore. I would hope it would and they might ride on unmolested bore surface. Oldandworn, I'm ot familiar with the button of which you speak. Can you be more specific? You all know that I have to embarrassed about my replies when the "button" I push says "Post Quick Reply". Packratc
Oh...I didn't know that you could post pics in the "post quick reply" screen. See, you know more than I. I "go advanced" for pic posting and that is where you will find the "preview post" button just to the right of the "submit reply" button.
Without knowing where the shims are located that you are taking about maybe you could see it easier yourself? If you visualize the packs being thicker or actually pull them apart a bit, does this lessen the clearance that you are asking about?
Good to see startling developments - now you need to look deeper into 'Pandoras Box' - the pump has had those pieces go through it, so check it out. Be sure to open up the convertor as you will find 'bronze paste' deposits in it that will need cleaning out. New plates should fill that gap packrat - better go dig up another buried cash tin ......
OldandWorn, Look at post #55 and you'll see the snap ring and three shims that keep the shuttle from hitting the transmission. If I recall, the manual calls for .024 to .045 clearance to be adjusted by these shims. My gap was .074 which would call for about .030" worth of shims to get it within tolerance. I haven't found any reference to the shims at the other end of the shuttle. That if they were adjusted would it have any affect anywhere and what that would be. There has to be some reason for there to be shims on the other end instead of just a snap ring. I'm writing this without benefit of the parts being in front of me, nor any diagrams, if I'm wrong my apologies. As I alluded to before, I'll bet when new clutches are added, the added material should make the shuttle longer and the excessive space at the transmission end should shrink. Looks like I'm going to have to ask Willie59 if he has the breakdown of the part name and any clearances or build instructions that match the great illustrations that he sent to me. Thanks for your guidance. Packratc
You have the diagram here packy. The front of the power shuttle, shaft end that has seal rings, fits into the torque tube housing. That end of shuttle has a ball bearing that fits into housing, bearing bottoms out in housing. Opposite end of shuttle fits onto tranny input shaft, the tranny shaft does not move fore and aft. Since tranny shaft doesn't move, it's uses a snap ring on tranny shaft as a retainer to prevent shuttle from floating out of torque tube at front, the shims are to adjust how far the bearing and shaft is shoved into torque tube housing. The ball bearing can't be shoved tight into torque tube housing, as it would be if it were a tapered bearing, a ball bearing needs a little bit of "float", that .024 that you mentioned with a max of .045. More clearance than that, the shuttle can float rearward which could pull the outer seal ring out of torque tube housing.
BTW, I don't think worn or missing friction surface on clutch disks would make over all length of shuttle unit shorter. Me thinks the only thing that would make the unit shorter would be destroyed thrust bearings or thrust bearing washers inside the unit.
And that's why I'll need to hunt up the key to the parts diagram that you sent me as I don't know which one of the parts is a thrust bearing or thrust washer. I guess I'll need the specs on each of those items to know if they are worn and need to be replaced. So Alrman thinks that the new clutch plated will fill the gap and Willie59 doesn't think that the overall length will be affected. I guess when all the parts get in place we'll put them in place and measure. Alrman, I can't dig up another tin of money. It's a bit of irony in that my digging utensil is broke and I'm broke so I can't be diggin' up no tin! Are you saying I should take apart that little pump that's still attached to the top of the torque tube cover? Packratc
pack, again, I'm no 580CK or B expert, I yield to alrman's greater experience with this matter. But I consider the common clutch pack, not unique to Case, when the unit is in neutral, clutch plates are relaxed, no pressure on them, and the unit is in proper orientation. Given this state of relaxation of plates, what difference would it make if plates had no friction material on them? It would make no difference, they are relaxed with no pressure in neutral. My point is, condition of clutch plates has nothing to do with length of assembled unit, has more to do with the thrust bearings and bearing washers within the unit. I understand your delima of the cash tin being empty, especially since April 15th is not in the not too distant past, but viewing the pics that you posted, you have issues with the clutch plates that need addressed. Yes, it will take money to replace those clutch plates, but it would be folly to put machine back together with those faulty plates. Which means the unavoidable choice...you have to tear into the power shuttle, if for nothing else, to replace clutch plates. Upon disassembly, you will discover any other problems, such as failed thrust bearings or washers. I know, it sucks, but it is what it is.
Willie59, Points well made and I agree with all you say. I wouldn't dream of putting it back together with plates in the condition they are in. I just hate it that the dream has always been a nightmare her of late. Thanks for your expertise, time, and patience. Packratc
I do remember that pic but having never seen the insides of this machine I don't have any reference of how everything is put together until Willie drew it in red (post118). As Willie pointed out, I would also guess items 1,2,3-6,7,8,-11,12,13 in the last pic in post 106 would determine the overall length of the shuttle. If the washers are a slightly larger diameter then the rollers you should be able to easily tell if there is wear on these parts by the condition of the thrust washers where the rollers contact.
Hey guys I'm no 580CK expert either! 30+yrs of Case background & I could probably count the number of CK's & B's I've opened up like this on one hand - the last one over 10yrs ago........ There is a major problem with packrat's shuttle & he's keeping us all in suspense ..... for goodness sake packrat, strip it & show us what you find.
OK Alrman, You sound too excited. I'm gonna' strip it and show it all. Butt, I'm am keeping you in suspense. I'm going to order the clutches this morning. I probably won't take it apart until I have the parts. Usually takes a day or two. The anticipation is sometimes as good as a real deal. I looked at the number of views this thread has drawn and was getting nervous about being on center stage and making all the mistakes possible. Then I realized. Those are only the views and posts made by only three or four of us. This thing has taken over my life along with my purse strings. I think here lately I've spent more time on this computer talking about it & posting photos than I have been working on the hoe. But, posting and picking you all brains about what to do have made the misery amost bearable. Thanks for your help. Packratc
Pack, Well at least you have a Rockford and not the Twin Disk shuttle... They are a pain I hear. Is the transmission input shaft in fact tight with no or little movement? If it moves it can let the shuttle move rearward. HTH, Dave
That's a good idea Dave, top marks for thinking outside the square - Just hope it's OK...... it could tip packrat over the edge opcorn
I'm afraid to go out there and pull on the d--- thing. If it's loose that could explain the thing grinding when trying to get it in gear. I called the dealership today to order the clutches. He said $300 for the clutches which I told him I was pleased with as I expected at least $400. He says there's six in one and seven in the other. That's foward and reverse. Then he dropped the hammer. The $300 was for each, front and rear. I already owed him something like $126 for the parts I ordered last week. I'm now up to $726 or something like that when the parts come in in about three days. Let me see: I've done the engine. I've done the brakes. I'm buying paint and hardener. I've had sandblasting done. I've built two cylinders and have one more to go.I've spent somewhere over $1100 in parts for this shuttle deal. Chico makes more money than I do. Did I ever tell you all that this ole hoe has had a broken loader arm that was badly repaired and the bucket sits on the ground about two inches higher on one side than the other? At least one of the steeering cylinders is slightly leaking. I've got to take the backhoe controls off and rebuild at least two of the spindles as they pump fluid like mad. The only chore this hoe has successfully completed was when Chico took it down the road to his brother's horse barn and fixed his septic tank drain and cleared a path for it in the woods. I was there while he was doing it. I told his brother that I was an idiot. I was paying Chico, providing the hoe, paying for the fuel, and then I took Chico to lunch. His brother did say thanks. Thanks Alrman for reminding me about the edge. I'm staddle of it. One leg is on one side and the other still on top and the edge is all the way up. I just found out that the edge was made by Gillette. Packratc
Google the part # A41355 & A41005 & a choice of suppliers come up with prices around $10-$11 ea for friction disc & $8 for steel ones. Packrat you will need seals for the clutch pistons as well - try aftermarket sources using the original Case #'s - some you will find & some will have to be bought genuine. Do we have to do everything for ya
Oh yeah you are, we have promoted you to that position, we're gonna drag you into this role kicking and screaming. There are aftermarket clutch parts out there as alrman said. http://www.highwayandheavyparts.com/?searchStr=A41355&_a=viewCat&imageField.x=0&imageField.y=0
Well now you tell me! I've committed to $600 worth of parts and you tell me I can get them for less. And then you break the good news that there are more for me to buy and I have yet to know where the clutch pistons are located. I need for you all to get ahead of me on this deal so you can head off the breaking out of the cash beforehand. That way you can help me save money. I've always been short of money and this Social Security dole doesn't go very far when you got a hoe. Let me look around for some part numbers and diagrams so I can fiqure out what you all are talking about. Thanks, Packratc
Packy, you're doing things in reverse order than what me or alrman would do. You order parts first (negating our chance to inform you of alternatives), then take it apart. We don't do things this way. We break down assemblies first, determine what is needed and what is not needed, then order parts accordingly. You need to get the shuttle unit apart. That way you can inspect the thrust bearings and washers, the needle bearings, bearing surfaces, all the typical stuff. If all those parts are good, then proceed with purchasing clutch plates and new o-rings for piston.
You already snapped a pic of the shuttle piston packrat.
Pack, Hang in there!! In some ways we are in the same boat with these. I didn't pay much for my 580B, and it would not move when I purchased it. I unplugged the shuttle pump pick up thanks to Phil on this forum and have been working with it and on it ever since. In my case, it has paid for itself several times over from rent would have cost me. BUT, it is a seemingly never ending project. Aftermarket is the way to go for those parts they have, saves alot of cash, as does eBay. Some items are only available from CNH... BTW, my loader boom has been broken also… Did you ever determine where the oil was leaking in the convertor? While the clutch packs look like they need changing, and now is the time to do that with the tractor split, I do not think that is what caused the leaking in the bell housing. Did the bell housing have the drain plug in it? It does hold a certain amount of oil all the time… (At least mine does…) Might want to train Chico on ‘popping’ the clutch. These tractors don’t have the most durable differential setup when it comes to jerking them back and forth. One of the important reasons to keep good brakes is to not use the shuttle but the brakes to stop the machine and change directions, causing a jerking motion on the diff. On the 580Bs they used rivets to attached the ring gear to the carrier, these get loose and eat the ring and pinion in their spot, I think the 580 is the same. Smooth operation is the key… The only time I use the ‘clutch’ (Not really a clutch but a shuttle dump that also connects to the brakes) is to change gears and when loading a truck. When loading a truck you can hit the clutch (and brakes) and run the engine up to get the loader up quicker. HTH Dave
Willie59, Thanks for your advice. I work on it as I do due to my uncertainty of knowing what I'm doing. I'm afraid I can't remember where the parts go when I get them scattered all over the place. I don 't even know what some parts are called when I take them apart. I just learned this morning what I thought was just a housing in really called the shuttle piston. I have order one of them there 800 plus pages o fhsop manual from Ebay the other day. It'll be here today or tomorrow I imagine. I'm expecting a call from the dealer today saying the parts are in. I ordered a bearing yesterday. It's the cage bearing that supports the end of the half shaft. I took it to the bearing place and they thought that it was probably manufactured with one less roller than it was suppossed to have. It would have probably been fine but it was only $10.50. Thanks for the operating advice dwloop. I imagine that Chico will be getting less seat time then he was and I'll be responsible for whatever breaks. I have more time to run the machine a little slower and maybe it'll last a little longer and be easier on my bank account. I've got to start on a health program now so I can live longer and I can possibly use this machine long enough to justify its cost. I've found that digging into the earth with a backhoe is not the only way to go in the hole. Packratc
Pack, good to hear from you again! I was afraid the lack of response was from you going off the edge, never to hear from you again. The manual is a good move! I would be lost without mine. I understand the going in the hole!! Dave
Dave the dwloop, I got the call today and jumped in my truck to go to the dealership. Some $760+ less I was out the door. I could have picked up the parts with a motor scooter. My manual hasn't come yet but we'll see what goes together tomorrow. Gonna' clean up a seperate bench to take the shuttle apart. Will keep you all up-to-date. At the cost of this ride, everybody can come along. If I learn some lessons and someone else gains some it'll help ease the pain. Packratc
Look at the bright side packy, you thus far haven't had to call a (per hour) mechanic out there yet.
Got a body gurney under the roof and started laying open the shuttle. The manual didn't come today but I couldn't wait to take it apart. Don't know what all the parts are called or which end is which. One set of clutches looks brand new and the other couldn't be much worse. Pictures show the parts laid out. Forgot to get pictures of the bad clutches but will get it tomorrow for comparing the good & bad. Pictures to follow.Packratc
, , ,
Just parts spread out, hopefully inorder. Can't get the piston (?) off the shaft. It has to have piston seals or rings inside. Am I right?Man, I need that manual. Couple more pics to get to load. Packratc
Go back and view pic #2 in post #106 packy, shows exploded view of piston. Snap ring #20 retains plate half of piston in drum half of piston. BTW, I see some damn good Snap On retaining ring pliers in one of those pics.
, , Don't know what you call this last part. There's one one each shuttle. Look like a synchronizer. They're rough in the teeth and have wear marks. Is this telling me something? Would appreciate guidance in getting the rest apart and what to look for, good or bad. Thanks, Packratc
Can't say for sure, but looks like item #13 spacer. Not sure what the wear marks indicate.
Just checking what the spacer is in the other pictures .... I think willie has it correct There should be thrust washers x 2 & a thrust bearing in the drums F&R ... have you not removed them yet? What condition are they in? These will have an affect on the shaft clearance problem.
Good to see my Aussie brother showed up cause I'm about half tipsy nearing midnight on Friday night.
If the thrust washers and thrust bearing are just supposed to look good, they do. I'm guessing that the thrust bearing is the real thin roller bearing that goes between the two washers. I thought once that one washer had enough wear in it to have formed a little wear ridge on the edge, but I'll have to find it again. I'm hoping the manual will have measurement specifications on these parts. The only thing that really looks bad so far are the one set of clutches. Packratc
I think I've come upon about the best candidate for the "sticky". At the top of the list should be, "BUY A MANUAL!". Sure, I've got a parts manual, the $15 CD from Ebay,a couple of hundred printed pages from this site, and best of all I've gotten the best advice and illustrations from you all, but THE MANUAL brings it all together. I'd been wondering where all those neat illustrations came from. Here I thought that Alrman was sitting down under with a quill pen drawing up these neat pictures to help me out. I figured the time difference gave him the time to do it and I would get them before he was through with them. Then, he would have these little circles and arrows drawn in red ink on clear tape and he would paste them on an illustration in the right place to lead me gently to the right part, and then he would scan them to me. But, when I leaped out there and spent $164 on a MANUAL, I found out that he ain't all that clever and hard-working. He had bought a MANUAL and all he had to do was keep those circles and arrows in red on the tape and he came across as a genius. But he had learned to read, write, spell, and the most fabulous talent of all, he had learned how to scan. (I'll never be that talented.) Oh, of course he had spent a gazzillion years working on equipment and gaining needed experiance, short cuts, by making all the mistakes for us, that counts for something, I guess. Then I fgured out that Willie59, right here in Tennessee, probably had the same manual and he was able to come across as a savior off a backhoes. Well, I'm gonna' figure out before this is over, who all of you all (like that phrase?) has a manual, and I'll know who was smarter than me all along. Maybe I've not been clear enough, but if you're reading this and were able to put together enough money to buy a hoe, even at scrap prices, BUY A MANUAL! What a dummy I have been not to have had one from the git go. Anyhow, within 5 minutes of getting it out of the box I'd found enough information that could have saved me countless hours of wondering and trying things how or what to do, that I knew, or think I do, to make the manual purchase worthwhile. When I get back out to the shop I'll know for sure.
Thought that my last rant was too long so I shifted to second with a seperate post. I finally got up the nerve and yanked on my transmission output shaft. Didn't measure it but it can't have .030 in end play. I've got V8 gas engines with more crankshaft end play than that. I'm gonna' leave it alone and move on. With reading the new bible and gleaning from you all all these many pages, I'm thinking that my problems have mostly to do with shuttle end play. At this point I'm pretty much convinced that with the wear on the clutches and maybe on some thrust washers, the shuttle needed more shims around the out put shaft end where it joins the transmission. I've sent you all pictures and you all know where I mean. I also think that this made the nearest to the shuttle of the oil seal rings that ride in the torque tube, come out of the bore. As the snap ring clasp was broken, probably when the direction of the hoe was changed the next time, the fluid that was coming out of the cast in bores in the torque tube, was not contained and it pumped right back into the torque tube and flooded into the bell housing and leaked like mad through an already bad gasket. That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it!!! Unless, of course, you all tell me I'm full of hydraulic fluid. I'd sure like to know the factory thickness specs on some of them there washers and spacers. Thank you all, keep those cards and letters coming in! Pacratc
Did someone say manual?
Dang it Willie59, You done gone and broke my 'puter with that picture. We have a lot in common. We both married blind women. I guess it's not fair to assume that you are or have been married. You might be married to a Case hoe. They're almost as expensive. I also have to say that just like George Clooney in Brother Where Art Thou? You is Bonified! Packratc
I do have to take my hat off to you Packy, I don't think I would have the patience to do the task that you have begun, I think thats why I already know my mechanic by first name lol Way to go on getting her all apart!!
Mikey1, Make sure you don't speak too soon. Get 'er all apart is the way easy thing to do. The gittin' back together is the real task. Thanks for the kind words & thoughts though. While you've got that hat off, how about passing it around for collection for the poor, mainly me. Packratc
Here ya go...I'll help ya out packrat and drop a bill in the hat.
Trouble here is, we are up to eleven pages on this thread & we are not even close to any assembling yet. HEF could exceed their bandwidth to support this thread alone by the time "Pandora" is up & running again. Hopefully with packrat's first effort ........
alrman, you're sense of humor is awesome. LoL
Thanks for the donation Willie59. I guess Alrman is right. I write too much and too many pictures to take up all this room. Next step is to take the shuttle piston apart & order & replace the seals, rings, whatever it needs. Plan on going back together starting this week. Packratc
Manual doesn't tell how to get force piston out of force piston housing. Pounding the shaft on a 6by6 piece of wood from either end only frustrates you and dents the wood. The other side effect is that the force piston rubber ring, that I want to replace, gets caught in the force piston housing grove that is for the retaining snap ring. When that happens it ain't being forced apart. I take it to a friend who says it looks like the inside of a C6 Ford transmission. He blows air pressure through the fluid holes and covers the others with his fingers and the thing falls apart. You order the kit from the dealer that contains the 6 rings and rubber o-rings and you wait 3 days. This giving you three days to come up with the $94 for the kit. It's all in fun. Packratc
Yep, your buddy was spot on packrat, amazing what a little air pressure will do. Looks like you have help all around you.
thats awesome to have the help, the old girls going to have to do alot of work to pay for herself now!!
,Well Guys, I've been doing things but all have not been right. I got the parts in and started together with the shuttle. Snap riings are pretty much self-explanatory except one has to be careful not to break one getting it snapped together. (don't ask how I know) The big round o-ring goes on the seperator plate, no problem. The thin flat 0-ring goes on the force piston to be installed in the forcepiston housing. The problem is getting it past snap ring groove.
The big picture is of the grove the flat 0-ring goes into and the other is the shyuttle housing with the snap ring laying on it. The manual says to fill the snap ring groove in the housing with grease. This is to let the force piston 0-ring go past the snap ring groove. I did this and put it together and the o-ring promptly got stuck on the groove. No way would it move. Took it back to my friend and he asked if the manual said thick hard grease. It did not. It just said grease & I used wheel bearing-type grease. Don't make this same mistake. The grease almost has to have the consistency of candle wax. The o-ring does not survive the removal no matter what you try. Air pressure wouldn't pull this off. The great news here is that the o-ring is not available through Case except in the kit. I looked throughout the internet and couldn't find one. So I ordered another kit for another $94. As you can imagine this all makes me very happy and another four days behind. I'm going to post a picture of two clutch discs. One good, one is not so good. Packratc
One more thing. I might strip down a piece of #12 copper electrical wire & put it in the piston housing groove. Maybe it'll let the 0-ring slide past it. I'll let you know. Patience is a virtue but money helps too! Packratc
Packy, if you have a Dremil tool, put a sanding drum on in, lean it at an angle, and grind a slight chamfer on the inside corner of snap ring groove. The inside portion of snap ring never has pressure on it, pressure is always pushing snap ring outward, trying to push housing and plate apart. This chamfer will help prevent tearing of seal ring. Once you've done this, go to Home Depot, Lowes, Ace Hardware, what ever is close to you, and buy a cheap toilet flange wax ring. Fill the snap ring groove with the bees wax, lubricate everything good with assembly grease, and press plate with seal in housing. Then simply peel the bees wax out with heavy bent wire prior to fitting snap ring.
Willie59, Thanks for the tip. But ,I'm having a tough time understanding what corner you mean when you say the "inside corner of the snap ring groove." In this case do you mean as you look down into the housing it would be the upper or closest edge of the snap ring groove? I am assuming that you mean that this will prevent the seal from tearing if I choose to remove it again. Sorry but I think your graphic confuses me. I think I'm graphically challenged. Packratc
Chico is a poor operator.He is abusing your machine bigtime.The correct way with a mound of dirt is to pull it down with the hoe and then after selecting 2 nd gear, go into the heap, allowing the torque converter to do its job.If he was spinning the wheels he was obviously in the incorrect gear, wearing your tyres out and over heating the transmission oil.I assume your machine has a general purpose bucket and not a 4 in 1 with a clam. Bad drivers always spin the tyres!
Packrat, It would be the lower edge of the snapring groove.
Thanks for the clarrification, 51kw. I understand the concept but I'm not sure I trust myself to pull it off. Think I'll pass on this suggestion. I'll probably take it to my guy with just the parts in hand. He's "been there-done that". You know what's frustrating: the shuttle was really doing its job. Looks like to me the problems were in the clutch packs and the resulting excessive clearance. I took this thing apart just because I was this deep into the machine that I wanted to leave no stone unturned. I guess I would do it again if I had unanswered questions but it was doing fine and now I've lost another week, about 100 miles of driving, and $200. These are painful lessons. Maybe someone in the future will peruse this lengthy epistle and save money, time, and frustration. Packratc
No worries Packy, was a crude (hastily thrown together) drawing in an attempt to give a visual to a concept. I've worked on many components that have snap ring grooves that cause grief getting a seal to slip by the groove without damage to seal. The chamfer (bevel) on inside corner of snap ring groove creates a "ramp" for the seal instead of a sharp corner to tear the seal. Grinding this ramp on the inside of groove has no effect on snap ring doing its job as pressure is pushing snap ring outward, away from the edge that has the bevel.
Yep, I got it now. And I believe you that it will work. I'll look it over and make a decision tomorrow when I have the part in my hand. I'll have to confident that I won't screw up the housing. Thanks, Packratc
No worries packrat, just follow your instincts. Just offering an alternative idea. If you feel more comfortable taking it to your helper buddy, by all means do so. Whatever it takes to get you going again.
Try some electrical tape over the groove.
Willie59, Is the "wax" off of the toilet flange a petroleum base? Will it mix with the hydraulic oil? I like the idea as it is thicker and harder than transmission assembly grease. Obviously some of it can get by the cleaning up and get through behind the piston. Any harm there possible, like clogging the valves? Thanks, Packratc
A closet flange wax ring is actually bees wax packrat. True, a small amount could get inside piston, but it would be such a small amount it would be negligible. And once the oil got hot, it would melt the wax, mix with the oil, and be so diluted in concentration that it would have no effect.
Believe it or not, progress has been made. Make sure Alrman gets the word. I ended up using the wax from a $2.00 toilet seal to fill in the snap ring groove. Put a slight cover of grease over it, braced the bottom of the assembly good and tapped it on home. Cleaned out the wax and put in the snap ring. As I did this at the transmission guys shop, we then put the air to it and the mechinism worked. Back to the shop to add the clutches and snap rings following the manual step by step. The manual says you can put the jack shaft and gears in the torque tube and then put in the shuttle assembly. Not so. You have to have the gear off the jack shaft to get the assembly by it. Then put a lot of grease on the machined surface in the torgue tube and put the reverse gear end of the shuttle in place. Tapped it in with a rubber mallet. I might say that it was at times difficult to keep the shuttle assembly altogether so we took the hint and tied the ends together with stout string until it was in place. The next thing was to join the torque tube back to the transmission. This is the point that the shims around the tranmission input shaft have to be meassured beetween the shuttle and the snap ring on the shaft. If you all remember I had a GREAT amount of clearance and had thought that had helped cause all this problem. I had bought 4 new shims from the dealer and put in three and assembled the tube to the transmission. It was too tight to turn. Took it apart and left in two. Couldn't get a .010 feeler guage in so it came apart again. Ended up with no shims put the shuttle turns free. You can go back to compare the clearance I had, which looked like half an inch. Pictures follow: , ,
As usual I grabbed the wrong photo first. The other two show the shuttle in place and the last shows the lack of any shims on the transmission input shaft. The next task is to replace the torn screen on the tube to go to the bottom of the torque tube. I went to four places and no one handles steel screen wire to be soldered to the pick-up tube. Any one have any sugestions? At this point I'm planning on aluminum screen wire folded over and held in place with a hose clamp. What do you all suggest. I have to tackle it in the morning. Thanks, Packratc
Looking good packrat.
Aluminum screen wire seems like it would be too fragile and maybe too restrictive. Steel or thick gauge brass soldered in would be my choice. McMaster Carr sould have it if you can't buy local. Which new components took care of the excessive shim clearance?
I'll google Master Carr when I get off this site. Might call dealership. I really don't know as I didn't measure but I thought that the worn clutches and probably worn steel plates between them. I really think that they are the only components that I replaced that could impact the length of the shuttle. Anyone else have an opinion? There's also the possibility that I've goofed something up. Won't know anything until it's all back together. All I can do is follow the manual and the help you all give me. If there were ways to check aall this stuff I surely would like to hear them. Packratc
I went to the local metal recycling yard and went through everything. I'm there often so I had some help. I'm posting two pictures. One is a clothes dryer screen, which is stainless, and a strip of stainless that had holes about the size of big ball point pen. ,
Of course I blew the photo posting again. I'm just a slow learner. The one that is signinficant is the clothes dryer screen on the tire. I cut it and formed it and was able to solder it to the tube almost like the factory screen. It'll be fine, I think. I'm going to try to post a picture of a part I can't identify so I don't know where I got it or where it goes. It's almost 5 inches long and has two threaded hole and the metal is about 1/8th of an inch think. I feel like a dummy again but I can't seem to find it in the manual. It doesn't look like it had paint on it. Can you all help a dummy? Thanks, Packratc t
I see that you took my advice about using the preview post button. :tong You can also edit your posts for up to 30 minutes or so. I would be hesitant about using screening any finer than factory or you may starve the pump. How does it compare to what you took out? I don't believe you can solder stainless. Did the solder flow and adhere to the screen?
About your mystery plate packrat, I don't recognize it to be part of your machine ........ I may be wrong ...... what does the other side look like? Any marks on it at all? Maybe Chico playing games with you ...??
BTW....nice set of tires you have there.
I need to go back and review how to preview a post. I tried it when you told me about it and couldn't make it work for me. The dryer screen might be a wee bit smaller than the factory, but not much. Is this the time to mark the torque tube and drill for a clean out plug? It wasn't easy getting the solder to flow. I held the screen on with a hose clamp and postitoned the tube vertically. Got the tube pretty hot and let the solder flow into the screen. Made sure of no cold solders. Looked good. Maybe I can get a picture before I put it in. The way it looks it wouldn't hurt it to leave the hose clamp on it. As to the mysterious part there are no markings. The part looks to be stamped which might indicate not of the backhoe. It was on the axle housing by the seat post. I don't remember putting it there. But then again I don't remember putting on underwear this morning. I don't think Chico is playing games with me. I thougt it ot be a spacer but not with threaded holes. I thought of outside brake mechanisms but it doesn't appear ot have had paint on it. If it's part of a tool we used I can't remember. Old and Worn the tires are not. Was a good selling point when I bought the hoe. Too bad they are tractor tires and not hoe tires but they do it. Thanks, Packratc
That's a helluva play on words Pack. :lmao
Good catch Willie....I just got confused when I read that sentence.
I'm writing up some tips on posting pics and also including a link to the instructions and screen shots that you made. I never could understand how to post pics until I read them.
Instead of typing and adding pictures in the box at the bottom of the screen hit the "Go Advanced" button first and do everything from that screen. The "Preview Post" button is right next to the "Submit Reply" button. It will show you exactly how your post will look above the box where you type your text. When you hit the paperclip button next to the yellow smiley face that will open a small screen where you load the pics from your computer into the thread. The small window will disappear, at least it does on my computer, but it can be found in your task bar at the bottom of your screen and its called "manage attachments". This next part is optional but I find it very helpful. Once I get all of my pics uploaded I close that little screen. I also make a note as to what pic is what because you will loose track of the numbers. Then I will type my text. When you want to add a pic place your cursor where you want the pic to show up and push the little down arrow to the right of the paperclip and it will list all of the .jpg files that you uploaded. click on the file you want and it will show up as [ATTACHMENT] in your text field. Here is an example of how it will look. The attachment number will not be the same as your .jpg files. bla bla bla bla bla [ATTACHMENTxxxxx] bla bla bla bla bla [ATTACHMENTxxxxx] Then hit the "Preview Post" button to see how it will look before submiting your reply. Here is a link to very good instructions on how to post pics by your friend Willie. :thumbsup
Thanks in advance, Old and Worn. I'll read them. Following instructions is not my forte. My mind wanders too much. I see other things and meanings in words instead of what I'm supposed to. My wife says I'm a pain in the burro. I think she nailed it. Everytime I post photos I use the same steps just not in the same order. Do you think that's a problem? Beleive it or not I used the corrections deal on the last post and it worked. Will it work to delete photos? Thanks for your contined interest in teaching the masses. Packratc
mebby you should just keep doing it your way. That's half the fun of reading your posts! :falldownlaugh Yeah, you can delete or move pics by editing/deleting the [ATTACHxxxxxATTACH]. I wrote it correct that time.
One little trick I've always done is when I download pics to my computer, whether from camera or phone, I always take the time to give the pic some form of recognizable name instead of the useless identifications (like 555029882) that the device automatically attaches to a pic. Makes it a whole lot easier to find the pic when you get it in a file in your computer.
Thanks for the tip, Willie59. I have done the same thing. Hoe 1, Hoe 2 , Hoe 3, & then Part 1, Part 2, Part 3. And I still get mixed up. Maybe I need to stick to picturesque verbage and leave the pics for others of more skill. Thanks, Packratc
this is a pointless comment.... but you guys are awsome!!!!! how the heck am i supposed to get to work when the reading here is so much fun!? i'm so new at this backhoe ownership stuff i reel between being terrified at what you guys do repairing your machines, and thinking that i may/will face same in future, and being excited about learning and following these great threads. it's crazy. i'm hooked!!
I am fascinated by all this please don't quit.
Adolphous & jdm, so glad that you're along for the ride. I really like your use of the "reel" word. I'm a new hoe owner & I could never express how much I've learned and continue to learn everyday. I believe that it's all got to fun. This is the best hobby club I've ever been a member of. The meetings are short, the dues are cheap, the members are all on their best behaviors, and your responsibilities are only what you want them to be. More in a while. Packratc
Mystery Pieces , This piece bolts to the foward top plate on the torque tube. It is not pictured or named anywhere in my manual. It has to have a gasket under it & I couldn't tell the parts guy at Case what is and what its funtion is. I emailed him a photo. I told him the hoe serial number. We talked three times in two days. I gave him the casting number. I told him that its passages would/could have hydraulic fluid in them. Nothing on my hoe screws into what could be a hydraulic outlet. I guessed that the hoe might have been available with some option that went there for another application. Finally, after telling him my social security number and the serial number of my last M-16, he said, "This is a 'B" isn't it ?". My answer was that it was that it is a "CK". PAUSE! "Oh! I found it!". This part is called a "COVER". Under it has a gasket. It has a "COVER GASKET". Three days and it'll be here. Packratc
Remember this mystery piece? , , Couldn't name it, place it, claim it, & didn't, at one time think, that Case made it. Well here it is now. This plate fastens to the underneath of the foward torque tube top plate and is held in place by two allen head bolts that are recessed into the top plate. Looks like it blocks hydraulic fluid from the "cover". As my manual doesn't mention or picture the "cover" it is just as silent and invisible on the underside plate that keeps hydraulic fluid from getting to the "cover". Oh! How I love to work on this machine. Packratc
Todays happenings! , , , Top photo and lower right are of my dryer filter, soldered and clamped-on torque tube sump suction tube. You can see the nicely worn clutches in the background of the later photo. The other photo is of the rebuilt torque converter about to be inserted into the torque tube. Takes two as this thing is pretty stout and is difficult to line up. It bolts in place from the inside. Man, if I've made a mistake in there, it won't show up until the whole hoe is back together. It's scary for an old guy like me to think that I might have to go back into this thing again. That's why I'm documenting this so I'll know how it comes apart & goes back together. I'm pretty clever don't you think? Packratc
Don't understand it. I submit photos in the "Go Advanced" mode. Wrote the script accordingly. When I post it, the photos have moved around and my text makes no sense when I refer to the pics. Maybe I'll catch on about the time the hoe is back together. My progress on learning to post is as slow as my repairing the hoe. I learn as I go on both of them. Packratc
Packy, once you're in advanced mode, type your script like I have here, then drop your cursor down 3 or 4 lines (see arrow below, imagine that's the cursor) < (once you place cursor here, go to paperclip in tool bar above, click on the pic you wish to post, and it will show up here) Then hit enter button 3 or 4 more times to drop cursor to this line, add text for next pic, hit enter button again 3 or 4 lines to move cursor down (arrow below) < (select another pic from paperclip above)
Packratc, I never was much good at jigsaw puzzles, and I am about as far as you can get on this forum from a CK authority, but regarding your mystery plate I would offer this thought. From the placement, shape, and your description, could the plate be an oil baffle? Regarding the “cover”. From a little research with the parts catalog it would appear this “cover” is used when a CK is “w/o remote valves”. The “cover” looks to have a couple passages in it to route the oil back in absence of the remote valves. However your expert parts guy is correct, it is listed as “cover” and “gasket-cover” in the parts catalog, so perhaps next time you might try describing a part to him in words with 2 syllables or less and avoid the need for your SS number? Best wishes in your endeavor!
Thanks for the conformation, fpgm04. My guess was pretty close. I have an old parts book but I think it is for a "B". I really appreciate a company that would give a part the name "cover" and "cover gasket". I was/am relieved to find a place for the mysterious plate/baffle. One gets himself in these messes when there's more than one person removing and cleaning parts. You find pieces in the cleaning vat that you don't remember putting there. Packratc
Just curious packrat, has that plate been painted a gold colour? or does it just look that way in the picture. :beatsme
i'm curious about these repairs that seem to be major overhauls to machines and cost benefit anaylsis. other than the love of tinkering around with stuff isn't there a diminishing return at a certain point? does it make more sense to buy a new/used machine rather than undertake these, what look to me, huge repair efforts. my 580K is 1990, and has maybe 8000 hrs. on it, can't be sure as it spent some time with crappy wiring that was just fixed to get the tach and hour meter working again. from what i've learned on this forum i may be heading to a future of doing similar crazy, major repair work. you out there seem to do these repairs in places that are not shops (looking at photos), but more sheds and lean-tos. wow! the time commitment is large. so, is it more hobby interest and who cares about time, or is a job or jobs sitting waiting to be done until machine is working again? life is only so long, and getting big jobs done that need machinery like this don't happen too quickly when being a mechanic to our equipment is more time consuming than the job itself. our time spent repairing stuff is free, kind of, other than time passing much faster then is sometimes possible to believe, and the parts costs add up. what i've done has been pretty cheap so far, but the stuff i've seen people doing on this forum can't be cheap. guys that make a living with their equipment obviously have a different view than hobbiests. packratc.... what are your thoughts on costs etc... not sure why you're doing what you are, maybe just for fun, and you've the time. even so, if i had to do to my machine what you are.... i'm not sure what i'd do. i could do the work, but my job, family, other stuff... it would take me forever to get the repairs done, and get back to using the machine for the reasons i got it. how much time do some of these huge repair efforts take? hours in is different than actual time where a week might go by with no progress. i can see some of the pros out there rolling their eyes at this reply. sorry boys. i build/renovate old houses, we have an historical restoration division that does some pretty neat carpentry stuff, and time is the enemy for me. i struggle to keep up. seeing the work you people undertake with your spare time blows my mind as to how you do it. are you human? have you cloned yourself so there's several copies of you running aroung doing all this stuff? what's the secret? give it up!!
Alrman, the photo just came out that way the flash was probably on and the sunlight hit it wrong. The piece is just steel gray. Adolphous, there is no cost or time benefit to my machine. I'm in the hole big time and will never recover. The machine will be worth it only to me. Many problems came with the machine. Some I probably caused and some my helper probably caused. I would recommend to someone else to buy a later piece, prettier, in better shape, & with less experience. But you get tied up with these ol' hoes and you "in it". I'm retired, gotta' couple of checks coming in, gotta' million projects, and the only one I have to please once in a while, is my wife. She's used to my idiocy. The only advice I would give about these old hoes is to follow your own path, I'm lost on mine and don't recommend anyone follow mine. Make your own path. If your worried about justifying it with time and money consideration. Your wasting that valuable time spent in your justifying. I built my own house too. It took forever. I'm sure I lost my rear on it. Still live in it. Did it because I wanted to. No excuses. Packratc
Adolphous, another thought: These are MAJOR repairs, MAJOR time, MAJOR costs for a guy like me that's only having fun. I just want to remove a few trees, finish a pond, add on to my shop , and build a couple more out buildings. Remember this about me: I don't need understanding. I need mechanical advice and prayer. Packratc
ha! good one packratc, i think we're all the same then. i do all kinds of stupid stuff that probably doesn't really make sense to do, but it's fun, and once into it who wants to give up and go home? nashy little beasts we are who won't stop no matter the sense in it. thank you for the honest answer and forthright explanation of your situation. mine is similar as i think oldandworn's is... many others too. i can't explain it, but it really does freak me out the idea that i'll have to one day pull motors or transmissions apart. i think (i'm sure) my wife would pull the 12 ga. on me or maybe the vermin pistol as i'm sure that's how she'd see me if i started doin that stuff. prayer doesn't seem to help much with this stuff as it seems to go wrong anyway, but the mechanical help here.... is alrman a god?
Alrman has you and others fooled. He is not a god. But he does walk on water. Willie59 and Old and Worn & some others are not exactly slouches. I'm not sure if they are water-walkers but they at least know where the rocks are. Enough of that water walking stuff. I also know they can turn water into wine. Or is that "whine"? Adolphous, I don't allow my wife to have a gun. She's accident prone and she might accidently shoot me. (She thinks I'm looking out for her, silly girl!) Packratc
I'm like Chuck Norris packy...I stare at water and it gets out of my way.
I believe you, Oh wise seer of East Tennessee. That ugly wig has to repel water.
LoL, when I stare over the top rim of my glasses, I repel anyone near me. :tong
I'll bet ATCO don't even drink water since he found out what fish do in it.
Pfffttttt...I've been ******** deep in way worse stuff than that.
adolphous like i say if you want to play with the big toy's you gotta pay with the big boy's trevor.
Well the saga continues! Thought I would inspect the poer shuttle control valve and clean it up as I had bought gaskets for it. Can't seem to seperate the control valve from the adapter plate. Looks to me like the same bolts hold them together that hold them to the shuttle foward cover. How do I gets them apart? As the old gaskets that are on my machine didn't look the same as the ones the dealership sent me, I went to this forum and went asearchin'. I had remembered reading an old site where these gaskets were discussed, cussed, and pictured. ( When I joined this site I went back and read every post on the 580ck.) Low and behold! There it were in black and white. These gaskets changed at serial # 8314666. My machine was built about a week later and takes the later model gaskets. The dealership had sold me the earlier ones. When I gave them the numbers and the serial number of the change they saw it in their 'puter. They ordered the correct gaskets and now it'll be three more days. Packratc
Now another matter also dealing with the power shuttle control valve. At the same serial number as mentioned above, the clutch pressure regulator valve spring changes from a single spring to a double spring. My service manual discusses only the single spring, its length, wire diameter, rate, and #of coils. And it gives the shim specifications to strengthen the spring. The guy at the dealership has nothing about the double spring. Does anyone have access to a source that gives the serial number of the double spring used as the clutch regulator valve spring in the 580ck after serial #8314666? I don't know if mine has the correct tension, length, or whatever. Thought I would replace it but the dealership has no knowledge of its existence. It is more than amazing what knowledge this site can bring to its users. Phil provided most all of this and we don't seem to have him around any more. Thanks to him and all of you. Packratc
Pack, my friend... I thought maybe, just maybe, since the shuttle on the original CK and the B are so much similar that I could find something in my original service manual. But no, mine shows a single spring as well. Are you sure someone hasn't been trying to pump the pressure up some with a second spring?? Dave
Thanks for interest, Dave. In a thread called "580ck shutte/converter" started by samk on 7-02-2009, Phil discusses it starting in post #13. Give that a look see and get back at me, if you will. It's a great thread on the entire shuttle control valve and all its components. It's where I got the info to get the dealership on the right page. When I told them what numbers to look for and they looked at what they had sold me, they said I had the wrong gaskets. They ordered the right ones today, as I said previoiusly. I don't know if I have the computer savy to get on the Case parts site as Phil had done, but it seems like the answers might be there. Maybe willie59 will have some insight or inside information. Thanks again, Packratc
packrat, from what I can work out, the double spring configeration is the earlier set up. The later is the single spring. It says up to SN 3.725.205 - that maybe a transmission serial number :beatsme Part Numbers - #14 - A37552 #15 - A37563 I would not be too concerned about this anyway, when it is up & running again you can check the pressures & that will tell you if they are OK. If there is a problem it can be sorted out then.
I agree with alrman, you can adjust pressure by adding/removing shims after you get it back together. But if you want to check springs since it's apart; Inner Spring: free length 1.44" wire dia .080" total coils 9.25 Outer Spring: free length 1.50" wire dia .044" total coils 15 Pressure (oil at operating temp, engine at 1500 rpm, main gearbox in neutral) = 170 - 190 psi in both fwd and rev
Packrat, I would certainly not want to second guess Alrman, but I believe he may have typo’d on #15 part number on the diagram he posted. I believe it should be A37553 , not ….63 From what I can see these are for tractor serial numbers 8314666+. Also, I am going to venture Alrman’s serial number7.735… is relative to tractors sold in Australia. The tractor is basically the same, so the part numbers and certainly Alrman’s advice are good, just the tractor is serialized differently down-under.
fpgm04 - you are correct about the part no. error it is A37553 - I will wear reading aids in future! I also checked the US parts catalogue to compare with the AU - there is indeed a difference in page details & with the S/N description. (usually there is no difference in S/N that I have encountered before...:beatsme) Noticed also US does not list 580CK only 580 - whereas AU does. Also the spring lengths are included with part description in US & not AU. Here I am thinking 'willie' went to the trouble of checking the specs in that new looking CK manual that he has ..... :drinkup
Well, thanks to Arman, willie59, & fpgm04, it seems that enough info has been gathered to make sense. The image that Alrman has provided in post #220 is what I didn't have access too. Evidently the dealership hasn't found it either. I guess the two shims that increase the pressure are the same that are listed for the single spring. I believe one provides 10 more lbs of pressure and the other 5 lbs. I had aleady decided to put the thing together, when I get the right gaskets, and if the pressure needs boosting I'll work on it then. Thanks to all of you. Seems like side trips like this keep prolonging my putting the ol' hoe back together. Thanks again, Packratc
Of course, gotta make this thing useful.
You all know, I haven't gotten this shuttle control valve apart. The top is still attached to, what I call the adapter plate, and doesn't want to come off. It wasn't leaking. I could leave it and hope it has the right gasket under it. I hadn't wanted to put a chizel to it to get it seperated. Any suggestions? One of the things that did concern me about this mechanism was that when using the shuttle it never seemed to be able find neutral. Neither Chico or I could find it. It went back & forth fine but it wouldn't sit still while the transmission was in gear. Do you all think this could have been maladjustment and I can straighten it out after it's all back together? Thanks, Packratc
Sorry I cannot offer help with the disassembly, but I know you have to get the thing apart to fix it. After all you have done "neutral" is too important to not fix.
Thanks for the encouragment, Bowen. Alrman, do you think linkage adjustment will get me neutral? I got both new gaskets in today. I want neutral as it's a pain in the whatever to put the transmission in neutral and then have to turn the seat around again and again to move the hoe foward or aft when you digging. Thanks, Packratc
I'm not sure what you you are asking packrat..... Does the forward / reverse spool on the control valve not detent / click into the neutral position? OR while the FNR lever is in the neutral position, the transmission was wanting to drive?
Alrman, When I was using it before the clamity I never was able to feel any detent, even though at times I would "hunt" for it. There was a place that it would go into foward and if you pulled back (or down) on the lever it would go into reverse. You have to take into consideration that I had never used a backhoe before I bought this one. But I always thought that one should be able to feel a detent and that there would be a neutral in between foward and reverse. As I haven't gotten the top of the shuttle control valve to seperate from the adapter plate I don't know if it has the right gasket between the two pieces. My tractor was made after the change in the control valve at Serial Number 8314666. I state all this as I'm wondering if my failure to find neutral could be because of improper hydraulic flow caused by wrong gaskets. Your second question is one I'm not able to answer as I've never been sure if the selector was in neutral. Usually I would put the stabilzers down, put the manual transmission in neutral and then dig. Wheels would usually "creep" some while they were suspended. Hope this is all clear to you. If you understand it could you explain it back to me in different words and maybe I'll catch on. Thanks for repsonding, Packratc
Packy, it's not unusual for wheels to still spin in fwd or rev direction when wheels are off the ground, doesn't necessarily indicate a problem. However, with wheels on the ground, shuttle lever in fwd, as you pull back the shuttle control lever toward rev, you should find a spot where fwd clutch pack releases, a neutral spot, then further movement of lever toward rev would engage rev clutch pack. Is there a spot (with wheels on ground), that the machine won't move fwd or rev when moving shuttle control lever?
Packrat, as said earlier, I have not played with one of these for a very long time. Usually, there is a detent position for neutral on most transmission control valves. However on what I can see on the CK info I have access to, there does not seem to be allowance for it???? In the first pic below, there only seems to be 2 detent positions on the spool - fwd & rev - no neutral ?? This being the case, the selector lever adjustment would be critical to 'hold' neutral position. If there was any play in the linkages it indeed would be near impossible to hold neutral. The second pic shows the ball & spring for the detent - you need to lift the valve from the adaptor plate to see them - go the wood chisel packrat!
I just spotted the same thing alrman, only two notches in spool for detent. It's likely that is to keep shuttle spool "engaged" in fwd or rev, not allow lever to "creep out of gear" as it were. I wonder if packrat's machine is supposed to have the neutral lock on the shuttle control lever to locate and hold neutral.
Arman & Willie59, I've had the spool out. I pulled on it too much by mistake and then it wouldn't go back in place. I took the plug out of the end, held down the spring and ball with a screwdriver and put it back together. Looked like to me that the only neutral that could be achieved was if the ball balanced on the tiny ridge in between the detents. Looked impossible to me to achieve as it's machined smooth. Not a sign of a flat spot on top of that ridge. I had not noticed the neutral lock that Willie59 points out. I'll have to look closer tomorrow but I don't recall any of the pieces depicted in the illustration. The drawing looks like you just flip down a little wing and the shift lever holds in place. If that's how it work it's crude but it could work if you could find neutral. Alrman, should I still take the shuttle control valve apart? Thanks, Packratc
You've already bought the gaskets & seals ? The valve is pretty basic & there is probably no debris from a major failure that could be caught up in it ..... you could leave it if you wanted. The new gaskets will look nice hanging up above your workbench ....
Packratc you are one determined guy that's for sure. As far as the shuttle lever I've seen a machine or two without neutral. Can't remember what they were as I only ran them briefly and I'm getting old.
Alrman, I'm not concerned about debris but concerned more than if the middle gasket is the wrong one and maybe the cause of my not having a neutral. But the detent not being there neutralizes the effort as I might have never had a neutral as Oarlock points out in the next post. What a pain! Thanks, Packratc
Oarwhat, my apologies for getting your name wrong in the previous post. When typing the post I just couldn't remember the name. I too am getting old and I'm glad you are too. MMMM- Now I'm wondering if I can replace the shuttle control valve and find a neutral. Thanks for your interest, Packratc
Looking at the parts book, it appears there were 3 different control valves used depending on serial #. Valve pt# A38031 was used on tractors S#8314666 to 8340560. Valve pt# 38300 was used on tractors S# 8340560 to 8358736, & valve pt# A38434 was used on tractors S#8358736 & up. The latter two valves appear to have the 3 position detents on the spool, while the first valve has only the 2 position detent as shown in alrmans post. I think the control handle assembly shown circled in willies post above is used with the later valve & 3 detent spool, while the one to the left(#12) is used with earlier valve & the 2 detent spool. Sorry Packratc, but it looks like your control valve probably doesn't have a neutral position. PS keep up the great work, this 580 thread is the most imformative since Phil was here . Thank you
TD-5, Thanks for jumping in here. My hoe tag reads "580 CK" and then "8320001". I was wondering, sort of musing, & kind of aloud, whether I could pick up a junk yard valve and throw it on the tractor and come up with a nuetral. It's just a thought & I'd have to come up with a valve real cheap to venture a try at it. I would think that some of the Case tractors would have the parts. You must be drinking this morning spreading those compliments around. I lot of what I've picked up have been from Phil's old posts. The rest of the knowledge shared here has been gleaned from such good folks as Arman, Willie59, Old Man, and lots of others. I'm just twisting old cheap wrenches and am learning how to use an iphone and post photos. I try to put a lot of info about this on the site as I could never express how much this site has done for me on this project. I'm hoping all this rot will help other lost soles in the future. (I'll bet the above named suspects have never been gleaned before!) Thanks, Packratc
Pack, just to throw what I was thinking this morning, TD-5s post confirmed it. The latest control valve for the 580CK, #A38434 is also the valve used on the 580B. I know the base tractors are very close, I wonder if you could use valve body and all from a 'B' to get neutral?? There is a guy on ebay parting out what seems to be a complete tractor right now. I have not seen that part come along yet... Just a thought... Dave
Packrat, Regarding your junk yard shopping comment. As been pointed out, there are different valves on the 580. However, it does not appear the valves can just be interchanged. Reference the diagram below as the fittings and tubing going into the respective valves are different. Therefore, while you might potentially be able to utilize a different part number valve, additional fittings and tubing would appear to be required to connect it. Just thought you might want to consider this if you go junk yard shopping.
fpgm04, Thanks for the illustrations. Looks like to me that the differences are in the end fittings. Shouldn't be too hard to overcome. Haven't posted in the last few days. Today I fabricated a release fork and handle for the seat mechanism. I've just had to sit on the old seat in the down position to operate both the hoe and the tractor. Looks like it's going to work. The piece is not available from Case. Have you all noticed that these hoes are some nasty things. I've been cleaning and scraping here and there. I've pressure washed it at least a dozen times. Buttoned up the top plates on the torque tube today. Found all the bolts but one. Nobody's going to see the one bolt that has an "IH" on it. The tractor will never miss it. That's why I had to stop and make the seat latch, to be able to put the rear plate back on. I noticed that someone has dropped the seat mechanism and the bottom lip has been bent and broken. The 2.6 inch snap ring was in pieces and not all there. I had the thing sandblasted & it might have happened there. It was covered with masking tape when I got it back.I'm taking about the shaft that goes down into the rear end. Might have to find another snap ring and spot weld it in place as I can't afford it to come apart and drop into the rear end gears. It's always something! Packratc
So, what happened? Fell off the planet? Joe H
Thanks for calling Joe. Have been working as you'll see. Assembly of the world's roughest backhoe will continue with comments and photos this week. Money and time continue to deplete on schedule. Looking foward to following instructions on proper adjustments while assembling clutch and brake linkage. Have plans to recut and reweld poorly repaired loader arm and repair of backhoe controls which leak copious amounts of hydraulic fluid. Incidently, these will only take place if the shuttle works properly. If it does not this string will include taking it back apart again and again until it's fixed. If all my yard art were in one place it would cover, probably, three acres. I can not afford to put this kind of moolah and time only to add to that collection. Packratc
i hear ya brother trevor b
Any updates? Going thru withdrawls on the saga of pacratc.
My apologies for your withdrawals. I tried to send some photos last week and couldn't make it work again. Of course I did not go back and reread the instructions again. That's like asking directions. Damn the directions full speed ahead! I'll try again today to show you my folly and hope that we will get back on to writing this epistle about the roughest backhoe in captivity. Thanks for your inquiry, 51kw. Packratc
Glad to have you back packratc I was wondering if that old hoe had done you harm.
, , , These are three photos that reveal my latest folly. Stripping the hoe, primering and painting. BIG MISTAKE!
, , , These are four more revealing photos.
Is it hot enough for the paint to dry?
I'm afraid the last photo reveals how stupid all this was/is. Several weeks ago, due to the heat, Chico and I went on half days. Progress slowed drastically as I started to strip the backhoe via wire brush on a flexible shaft. I went to my buddy at the automotive paint store and bought what he suggested. Primer, hardner, paint, hardner, reducer. My old spray guns had set up and parts were no longer available so two new "cheap" paint guns joined the fray. (Devilibus, spelling unknown at this time.) To give you a hint, the paint was $160/gallon. I was in sort of a hurry and opted for a paint in the catelog. In sticker shock I went to TSC and bought some cheap red and hardner for the tractor. Another mistake! So, we're rocking along spending money like a drunken dozer operator. I began to see the obvious mistake and feel the pain of the money and Chico brings it all together. I admitted one day that I wished I'd left it alone with two or three mismatched colors and rust. Chico said, "Yea, it'll just be muddy the first time you use it." I wish I'd thought of that! So, the upshot of all of this is that I will have probably spent another $1000 on this old hoe and have wasted days and days of doing something non-productive. Instead, and this is if all the repairs are correct, I'll get to join the club of those that have ten grand in a $4000 backhoe but mine will be the colors of a Tonka Toy. But, it's my Tonka Toy! The tractor went back together without too much pain and we found most of the nuts and bolts. Scratched a little paint and am now putting the brake linkage back together, then the fuel tank, and will follow with the steering column. I'll send more photos and keep the site up to date. You all are free to take your best shots about the color scheme. Packratc
JDM, the paint dried before it hit the metal. We actually had some days with a breeze and am enjoying over spray on everything. I had to stop in the middle to have my wife's grandmother's lawn furniture sand blasted. We welded, primed and painted on that with Ford tractor blue. Some of that blue over spray is on the hoe steering mount and lots on my new concrete floor. That's all added into the inane. I really think if you spray metal that's over 90 degrees it's the same as having baked on paint. Packratc
I remember one time i was repainting a stepvan, and couldn't understand why I couldn't get a decent shine one one side, til I finally figured out that was the side the sun was shining on!
WOW!!! ive just caught up, been working on my own radiator repair job. I will have to say Packrat, I will probly have the roughest ck now, you guys are coming along very well. Cant wait to see how everything comes as a finished project. Good work guys Mike
I joined the club in 1995 when I bought a used JD310 that had already been "cosmetically" overhauled. Everything worked fine until you ran it hard for about 30 minutes then it would overheat. I didn't have to do as much work as you have done, but ended up performing an in-frame due to cavitation corrosion. Your paint job looks good and it will make it easier to see and correct any leakage problems down the road.
This morning's work was mounting the steering column with all the pedals & linkage still attached. Found that I probably should have mounted it to the torque tube and slid it in place when we bolted the bell housing together. As it was we mounted the fuel tank front bolts and tied up the rear with string. We then hung the steering column from a chain from the roof and "scootched" it under the fuel tank. This thing was heavy, unbalanced and cumbersome. We found the rear tank bolts too long, as others have, so we cut an inch off of them. We got a bolt or two through the column mounts & into the holes in the torque tube. Have to find the bolts, spacers, and rubber grommets pictured in the manual. They were in pretty sad shape and some missing when we took it apart. We be closing in on getting linkages, fluid lines, and fluids to start this tacky thing up. Packratc
Good work.
,
Couple of pictures from today. Adjusted the brakes to my satisfaction but I'll read what the manual before I decide to leave them. I think they have to be right as the "clutch" goes in when the brakes are applied. Few more hydraulic lines to hook up. One of the rubber mounts betwen the fuel tank & the steering column was missing. Made up one from a generator motor mount. These photos show the paint miscombination that makes it look like a Tonka toy. This old hoe had hardly any sign of a wiring harness. I hate wiring but I guess I'm going to have to make up a harness of sorts. Any hints would be appreciated. Best to you all, Packratc
Well, hooked everything up and filled it up with fluids. Battery was dead so put the charger on it. Put 6 gallons in the transmission. Leaks at the bellhousing. Put 10 gallons in the loader. Starter seemed to drag. Heated it up and engine started. Couple of leaks. Loader shuddered a few times. Chico said it was in a bind. High pressure hose that goes back to the controls shudders when the engine turns over with the starter. Engine now doesn't want to start. Hydraulic lines are all hot as is the new spin-on filter. Need to do some reading as it act like there's a restriction in the loader/hydraulic system. Is there a bypass that should allow fluid to just circulate when there are no controls activated? I'm sorta thinking out loud here. Remember this has a new hydraulic pump but it was in use before the transmission went down. By the way, the spin on hydraulic filter that I replaced, the insides of it were caved in like it had too much suction for that application. Haven't adjusted the "clutch or the reverser controls yet. I only had foward when I tried it. The wheels are off the ground. The transmission still ground going into gear. The clutch did work well enough to stop the wheels from turning foward when the pedal was depressed. So, all is not well in middle Tennessee. Think I have to get the engine running like it was before all the surgery took place. I'll be doing some reading would be glad to hear you all's theories and opinions. Thanks, packratc
packratc, Is the backhoe attatched yet? The inlet & outlet hoses should be joined up if you are running the engine, with the hoe removed, or the oil will deadhead (& usually destroy the hyd pump!) Make 100% sure that all the backhoe/loader control levers are in the neutral position. I must have missed the post where you have fitted a spin on filter to the hydraulics. Did you do that doing the 'refirbishment'? or before? - I would not run the machine with the filter 'caved in'. Did it start leaking at the bellhousing, without running it? Were gaskets or sealant used? Or is it leaking out the hole? Remember,"there is nothing time & money cannot fix" + alcohol sometimes helps.
Alrman, You are the man! I looked at that connection and the first drip I noticed was at the male end of the big connection to the backhoe. No, the backhoe is not on it. The fluid is "dead heading". One of the other leaks is on the right side, looking at it, of the hydraulic pump. It leaked previously. There's a large washer, maybe out of gasket material there and it looks like that has failed. It's a steady drip. Hope I've not destroyed the $500. new hydraulic pump. It's got about 5 or 6 hours on it at the most. I guess I can just fasten the two big fitting together, can't I, even though there's a lot of pressure there. Any danger? The machine had already been refitted to the spin on type hydraulic filter when I got it. The NAPA dealer just replaced it with the same number. I guess if the old one caved in this one will too. Keep in mind the outside of the filter has not caved in on the old one or the new one. As far as the bellhousing, it started to leak as soon as we put in the fluid. It's leaking around the housing itself and running down to the bottom to drip off. I put in a new gasket, the one that goes all the way around the bell housing. Is there another gasket at the bottom where we the oil pan joins in the mix? Thanks a lot! Did I tell you? You are the man! Packratc
Oh! Alrman, I did go over to the backhoe where it lays propped up in the gravel. I made sure all the controls were in the neutral position. Packratc
Today I went out and joined the female backhoe connection to the male connection. It took the pressure off of the system evidently as the engine started like a new one. Loader worked good. Still have the same leaks as mentioned above. Connection that I just made is leaking slightly. I think there is a replaceable o-ring or something like that that will fix it. Been reading on this site too refresh my memory about foward/reverse problems. Thanks again for your help, Alrman. Packratc
Nice work packrat. On my 580b it seems like from the factory there was a continuous gasket that went all the way around the engine/oil pan and sealed to the bellhousing. I think the replacements I got have a gasket between the engine and bellhousing and a half circle one between the oil pan and bellhousing. I haven't gotten that far yet with my 580b but it sure seems like you need a seal between the pan and the bellhousing.
You may be right, CasIns! Chico and I saw that gasket and I thought it was provided for one to use if you were doing and in-frame engine rebuild. Reason I thought that was that the surface looked flat all the way around. But, I wasn't looking at it when we talked about it. I'll get the manual out and an old parts book and see if it's called for. Certainly I can drop the pan or spread the bell housing away from the engine enough to get the gasket in there if it's supposed to be. I'll let you know. Thanks for thinking for me. Need all the help I can get. Packratc
Well it's a mere 93 degrees F here. We spent 4 hours putting in the gasket at the bottom of the bell housing. All 8 of the bolts that hold the backhoe suport to the hoe at the rearend housing have to be loosened 1/2". The two vertical bolts that hold the bakhoe support to the loader frame have to be removed. There are 7 or 8 bellhousing bolts that have to be loose. The top two are hidden by the power steering hoses that have to come loose. The mount for that housing has to be loosened to get at all the hoses. Don't forget to put a jack under the torque tube and the engine both. Pull both ends of the hoe apart and put in the gasket. We added some silicone for garnishment. Reversal of the procedure takes about an hour and a half of the 4 hours. Replaced some lost fluid and started it back up. No leak at the bottom anymore. Now the leaks at the bottom starter bolt. Got to find the gasket to seal the starter. When I replaced the starter I guess I just got a rebuilt tractor starter from the rebuider. I need to find out what makes a starter different for the wet bellhousing. I guess with the previous leak the fluid never got high enough to get to the starter. Now to the shuttle problem. packratc
Two things make a starter different for a wet housing, 1) shaft of starter has a seal to keep oil out of armature housing of starter, and 2) mount of starter has a gasket.
Thanks Willie59, I'll check with the Case folks and see if they can get them. Packratc
, You all have seen this many a time. I've got the 3.1 inches between the center of the bolt and the center of the cam follower. I think you can see the clean part of the spool. It comes out about 5/8". With all the new parts the "clutch" pedal only goes down about 2" for its full travel. Used to bea about 4 inches, I'm guessing. Also followed the manual instructions on setting the shuttle spool linkage. If you all remember we decided that my hoe didn't have neutral setting. I pulled the shuttle spool out until I thought I felt the detent and set it. The hoe has the rear wheels off the ground. Yesterday I could stop the wheels from turning by psuhing in the clutch. Had no reverse. Today the wheels turned slowly, I didn't increase the RPM from idle, clutch seemed to have little or no effect. Still no reverse. I had bought a new pressure gauge that was fluid filled. Had never installed it. Noticed that the fluid had leaked out of it. Am going to take it back to the folks and see what the deal is. I had it made for this application. I think I'm going to need it to start testing some pressures. I've got several concerns. When I put the shuttle back in the torque tube there ended up being no shims on the transmission output shaft in front of the snap ring. (was to measure between .025 and .045.) Also now I'm not confident that the correct gaskets are in the flow spool valve. We had discussions about which were the right ones and then I read somewhere that one of them could be put on wrong. In any event, I'm looking for advise on how proceed to test or find some gears. Remember when this thing came apart I still had foward and reverse, albeit they were weak, but I had fluid coming out of everywhere. Thanks in advance for all your help and advise. I need this part of my career to come to a close so I can get on the rebuild the backhoe controls. Maybe I can get it done before I go to bankruptsy court. Packratc
Sorry for a lack of response packrat - It could be possible that you were supplied the wrong gaskets as I recall the Case parts man you are dealing with seemed to be getting your models mixed up. The correct part numbers for the valve gaskets for the earlier 2 position spool are A37545 & A37544 (later 3 position A38030 & A38029) Can you check your invoices & see what they sold you? Hope you have sorted the pedal problem by now.
Good to hear from you,, Alrman. Haven't looked at it for a couple of days. Had the guage checked and it's OK. Have misplaced my manual somewhere here. It's probably the biggest book in the house and I can't see it. My wife thought she moved it but ---! It'll show up and I'll do some pressure tests If I can figure put how. Invoices are filed where ever they land. I think I can find it. They exchanged the gaskets for me once. Not sure I have a pedal problem. Brakes are adjusted as per manual. The short stroke on the "clutch" I'm not sure is a problem. Do you think it is? Thanks, Packratc
Here's how my life is the backhoe world! I buy these gaskets for the flow spool valve. They are A37545 & A37544. With all my larnin', expertieest, and molah gone down the tube, I'm smart enough to return those babies for an A38029 & a A38030. Now don't you all go lookin' at those numbers and writin' em down. I'll fess up & tell you what I done did. I had the correct gaskets in hand and paid for. I was so smart that I went & exchanged them for the wrong dang gaskets. And then I promptly put them in that hoe. Now that old hoe won't move. Tomorrow I drive 30 plus miles to repurchase the gaskets. But, how lucky am I? They just happen to have them in stock. And I'll just bet you that one of those bags will have already been open and torn right through the label where I tore it the last time. I have no idea how & where I got the idea that the first ones were the wrong ones. Don't matter much now. I'm just feelin' real good right now. It might not work but at least I have a direction to go in to get this ol' hoe outa the shed. And this good news comes to you courtesy of the Alrman of QLD Australia. If you curious folks reread a couple of posts ago, I hinted that I wasn't confident that these gaskets were right. He being the bright, learned, experienced professional that he is, researched the numbers and provided 'ol me with the information. What a guy! Thank you my down under friend. My best to you and your family. I'll keep you posted as to whether this get us rollin' or not. Packratc
Your welcome packratc, anything to help get Pandora up & running again :drinkup Here's to hoping the gaskets will do the trick!
Let me see if I got these gaskets straight; the first ones, that you thought were the wrong ones, were in fact the right ones. So you returned them to obtain the real wrong ones, and installed them thinking they were the right ones, had to be the right ones, since you [thought] the first ones were the wrong ones. So you figured out you were wrong, and that the [assumed] right ones were, in fact, the wrong ones. So now you're gonna go back and get the real right ones that you had in the first place. That pretty much it? Question, what kinda corn squeezins do you guys sip on in middle Tennessee? :tong
Willie59, You're all wrong! They only way to truly understand the mix is to add the gaskets together as they go together on one assembly. The AA75089 was bought. They were replaced by AA76059. You got that, I know. Then you use AA75089 on the TWO pieces that make up the one. That two and one you add together. That makes makes three. Your part number is AA75091. Added to your machine number of 580 they are assembly 75671. Then when assembly 75671 doesn't perform you take it apart. Part 75671 becomes 75091. You're with me ain't you? Since these parts are no longer usable there's no need to take apart the three and add back in the AA was once A plus A. There's no practical use for this problem solving to break it down to A37545 & A37545. SInce you've got this already figured out, you just reverse the process with A76059 which is the sum of the secondly purchase parts that are now used but cost the same as the original. But I save the 9.75% tax as this is a farm machine. At this point we have discussed only 50% of the repair as the formula for the new used gaskets which are about 22.5 miles away are not yet present nor inthe vicinity of 580CK. This perhaps will occur on the afternoon hours of 7-31-12. I will go through tthe explanation of the upcoming joining of the A38029R & the A38030R which will become AA76059RR, if necessary. I'll have to consult the slide rule for the computation of the formula of the white lightin' gasket remover and what it becomes when added it to red permatex. I'm not sure all that will be able to be included in the scientific explanation for the future owners of '67 580cks. You understand that the contamination of the hydraulic fluid, red-pink paint ($160/gal),& old permatex alters any possiblity of scientific formulation that could be included in an addendum to the factory manual. That in itself is a can of worms since the 1967 manual may have to be reconfiqured since translation may have been contaminated from you DOS program could have been used on floppy disk in an Apple2e. There's always those factors that good scientists have to consider for the future of mankind. In the interest of the sheriff's department, that are in all likelyhood, monitoring these comunications, the clear liquid in the gallon and quart jars housed in the cabinet in the kitchen are my stash of gasket remover. You trying to get me busted, willie59? Jeez, I thought any East Tennessee redneck would know better thatn to talk about embalming fluid that may or may not be present on one's property. Keep it cool with the discussions about gasket remover. Keep in touch, but on the down-low, and I'll let you know the progress. Packratc
Man I hope mine don't break I wouldn't have a chance of getting it right.
Better check your math again, I went to school in Tennessee one time, and nothing added up like your numbers did
:lmao packratc - YOU WIN! :lmao
Alrman, I'm so honored. I'm at a loss for words! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------. I'm certainly proud that I could represent my county and take home the gold medal. Thanks you to my family and coaches for all the sacrifices they've made through my many years of training. To be here in London amongst all these talented people who have all achieved greatness for themselves and their sponsors. I continue to look foward to representing the Case Company as their emissary throughout the world. I will hold aloft the globe adorned with an albatross for all to see far and wide. May all I encounter continue to buy Case products, support tax-free internet sales and buy from the folks who hawk their goods on HEF. Oh! ---Yes, I did say I was left at a loss for words. Excuse me, a-a-a! I better go now, Packratc
Packy, you need to sip a little gasket remover...you're thinking way too much.
congrats packratc you earned it your a better man than my mother ever was! trevor b
Yanked off the valve assembly this morning and scraped off the old gaskets. There's like one hole different in each of them. One of them it is a blind hole. The detent spring tries to hold the two pieces of the assembly apart which makes it difficult to reassemble and make sure the gaskets stay in place. We just used permatex on the gaskets and held the two pieces together with bolts so the glue will set. Have to take off tomorrow as I got roped into being an election worker for the county/state elections. Will try to get it back together on Friday. Have to admit I'm sceptical that such a small difference in these gaskets can/will make this hoe move. But, I'm a hopin"! Thanks, I think, to trevor b. I'm sure his mother is/was a heckuva fine man/woman/person and we would all admire her. She reared a fine person in trevor b. He is a star of HEF and probably Facebook. Stage and screen careers are in the offing. We all celebrate his one year anniversary on HEF. Trevor b, I have a policy never to say bad things about ones mother. If she is/was like mine, mine birthed me but couldn't keep me from going down hill from that high point. But things are looking up for me. I'm headed toward a mouth without teeth and maybe I'll be in diapers again. Maybe I'll achieve that high point so Moma would be proud and forgive me for straying for all the years in between. She'd probably say right about now, "Why in the world did you buy a backhoe?" Packratc
Gotta get into the manual today and maybe some searchin' on this site. Hoe is back together & will go foward with no sign of reverse. Clutch will stop tires from moving foward & the brake pedals depress when the clutch is depressed. Is the clutch supposed to go in when one of the brake pedals is depressed?. It doesn't & I thought maybe it should. Hoe is still jacked up with rear wheels off the ground. I did let it down & it moved foward. It's on a concrete pad & I didn't want to drive it off of it so I moved it back with the bucket. Also want to include that when I upped the rpm with the wheels off the ground the wheels increased their speed. When I move the power spool by hand I can feel the reverse detent. I can move it by hand and move the hand linkage with it. I've left the limiting screw loose so I could move it further back. Made no difference. Have to be careful not to pull the spool all the way out again as I did this and had to put the ball and spring back in place again. Not a problem, though. Any more good ideas? I'm thinking if it has to come apart again, so be it. But, I would like to have some idea what I'm looking for. At this point all I can think of the lack of shims on the main shaft and perhaps wear in the torque tube for the seals. But, it was going into both gears when I took it apart. Thanks, Packratc
Assuming there are no parts left on your workbench (reverse idler gear?), the first thing you should do is test pressures. In particular, you are looking for a loss of pressure in reverse, indicating internal hemerage, likely a damaged piston seal These are from a 580B manual with 3 position spool & not 100% sure if test ports are configured same as yours. Look for this info in your manual to be sure.
Tomorrow I'm going to run all the tests as stated by Alrman with the chart. The converter valve, beside the shuttle control valve has not been apart, at least by me. I just took it off and cleaned it, painted it, and put it back on with a new gasket. At this point I'm satisfied that I have foward gear but just not reverse. Need to know if I should take off the converter valve and take it apart to determine if it appears to be clean & free to slide. I would think it would work the same for forward and reverse, but I'm not sure. Would like advise on this is anyone has some. I'm trying to perform all the tests that I can to solve or at least pin-point the problem before I take this thing apart again. Especially since at this time I wouldn't know what I was looking for. Advise is appreciated as always. Thanks, Packratc
My hoe is a 580CK, serial number 8320001. Wanted whom ever to know that so they'll know that is was made before the changes that are discussed in the manuals. The oldest mechanic at the dealership calls it a "plain 580CK". As I stated previously today was the day to run the tests set forth by Aldrman. I started with test port "C" and got a "0" reading in foward and reverse. Went on to test #2. I got 190lbs. in foward gear and 100 in reverse. Didn't like that. When I pressed back against the stop screw with the lever, the reading would go up to 150 lbs. It seemed like the power control spool needed to go further put. I took it off the linkage and moved the stop around 180 degrees, to toward the left side of the tractor, so I could pull the power shuttle spool futher out to see if I could get a higher reading. I got close but it can't be hooked up like that and the wheels never started to turn on reverse. I went on to test #3 and got a good reading at first and then it dropped to zero. Too many things were not looking right. I called the dealership and talked to the oldest mechanic there. He said he was almost positive that they had an old manual there that I could look at it if I'd come up there they'd look it up. My manual is for a "B" and talks about having a neutral detent in the power shuttle spool. We discussed the fact that I have no shims on the main shaft to the 4 speed transmission. We talked about if you have correct pressure for foward the same pressure should be true for reverse. He says I've got shuttle problems such as a broken hook ring, the ones that ride in the torque tube, or a seal that's not sealing. He says he'snever seen a shuttle that didn't have some clearance between the shuttle and the transmission and that they always tried to set them at .028 clearance. Now, I think I can take the conver off the torque tube, the one that sits right in front of the 4 speed gearshift, and look at the end of the shuttle where the shims are suppossed to be. I can verify whether or not there is any gap in there. What do you think are the chances that one could start the machine with cover off? Do you think it would sling fluid everywhere? I'm looking for all possiblities to adjust before breaking it back down and also trying to think of all the things I could look for to be wrong when I do break it down. Thanks for any feedback! Packratc
Packrat your confusing me, the test ports on the valve are identified as C B & D. You describe your test as C & then 1&2. Just to clarify if I have this right, you have the gauge in the C test port, was the 0 psi reading, as descibed in test 1 with clutch depressed? Was the 190psi reading with the gauge in test port C & clutch released? The pressure drop in reverse is a concern....... but even with 100psi there should be some effort to drive. What is the dump spool (the other one) during during this proceedure? Is there anything binding it ? Does it look the same as picture? Yours should be the lower picture - A37546 PS - it will throw oil everywhere if you run it with the cover off..... & what exactly is the "stop screw" you speak of?
Alrman, I started with the clutch pressure test whci is port "C". Port "C" is where the stock guage, the green-red-green guage, is plugged in. The refrence then is down the column of the chart with the guage still in port "C". Test number "2" would be with the clutch released and the shuttle shift lever position if foward and then in reverse. The refrence to "1" and "2" are the numbers at the left of the chart you provided. I guess what you're calling the "dump spool" is the flow control spool (by the manual) or the one attached to the "clutch". There is no binding. I'm not sure that I've ever had the flow control spool out. Think I will take it all apart tomorrow and take pictures of each piece for you all. All's I loose is another set of gaskets. Does the A37546 valve have one or two springs in the clutch pressure regulator valve? With a hoe this old I've gotta make sure that the parts are what I think they should be as they could have been changed or swapped around somewhere before this thing followed me home. Hope I clarified, if not, let me know. Thanks for your help. Packratc
keep up the good work you will win the war some day! i think we both have a sick sense of humor and don't know when to quit. trevor b
Thanks, I guess, for the comment, TrevorB. I think you are trying to cheer me on to win the war. I'll need 25 lbs of TNT to really win this thing. You understand being a "Sicko" your bad self! Now on to the important stuff. Will have to hold pics off until tonight. Haven't got time this morning to think that much. Everything inside the control valve seemed to slide pretty well, except maybe for the clutch pressure regulator. But I had good pressure in foward so I think it was OK. As for as the Pressure Regulator Valve, mine has two springs. I thought the old machine should have only one spring. Am I remembering wrong? Then I took a new top gasket "A38030 and put it on top of the one that's coming off. The old one tore up any way. On the old gasket there's a large passage that it appears that the fluid tried to push through. In fact it had to be leaking around it. When I compare the "A38030" gasket to it, that "pushed through hole" is in the new "A38030". What I mean is that it is factory cut into it. I'll try to send pictures tonight of this but I'm tempted to put it back together with the "A38030" gasket and try it. Of course I've still got the old "A37544" gasket in place. That would be a mix of the old and the new. I need advise to determine if I have a later model power shuttle control valve or the old one. Thanks, Packratc
Well, I went ahead and took off the cover plate that's in front of the four speed transmission. This is the conver that has the dip stick and where you replace all the hydraulic fluid that is constantly dripping out. I took it off and the rear of the shuttle is exposed. It looks all nice and shiny. Just like it cost several hundred dollars, which it did. I'll try to send photos of this tonight. This is the mainshshaft where the round shims are suppossed to be between the end of the shuttle and the snap ring that keeps the shuttle fron crshing into the transmission. The shims are supposed to be included until you have between .025 and .045 inches of clearance. When I put mine together it had no clearance so I put it together with no shims. Today, looking at it further, with a flashlight, it appears that the snap ring is warped (sp?) and there is clearance on one side and not at the other. You can turn the shuttle by hand, easily, and the snap ring is in the groove all the way around, but the top or outer edge is bent toward the shuttle. So, how does this happen? Did one of us remove it with a screw driver instead of the reversed duck-billed pliers? The screw driver might have twisted it if it was just "muscled" off of there. Who knows? I really don't see straightening this spring steel snap ring while it's in place. Also the guy at the dealership that I talked to yesterday said he never remembered putting one together without some shims in place. If that's the case, even without the bent snap ring, it looks like my shuttle is longer, by a few thousands, than it shoud be. Any feedback? Thanks, Packratc It looks like I'm destined to have all the problems possible for a 580CK. Aren't I the lucky one?
Most obvious difference I can see is the flow control spool. Re the bent circlip - if it was forced by the shuttle pushing hard on it, due to an assembly problem, it should be bent toward the transaxle. Chances are it was already bent & you just never noticed.
Thanks for the answer, Alrman. Of course the control spool has one more detent for neutral. I would think that if the circlip were slammed into by the shuttle it would be bent all the way around. One end of it looks like it has good clearance & the other is bent toward the shuttle and is right up against it. It's all a guessing game at this point. Thanks, Packratc
, , , , ,
One more of the bent circlip: , Would welcome comments or questions concerning the photos. Packratc
In the first photo, not the hole in the left gasket that looks like it's trying to tear through. Sorry, but I can't help but wonder if this is where the reverse fluid is going, or trying to go, and I just got a 100 pressure reading instead of the 195 I got in foward gear. Packratc
Packy, I can't say for certain, but those gaskets don't look like they match either of those components. Hard to say from just viewing pics.
The plot thickens...... By the looks of the flow control spool, the valve you have is the A38031 not the assumed A37546 (correct by serial number)....... so the gaskets to be used should be A38030 & A38029. That is of course that the oil distrubution plate is also not correct as per serial number. This would have been easier to confirm if you had the original gaskets. BTW - I would usually fit those valve gaskets with no sealant on them at all, it makes them more reuser friendly. That blue stuff looks like RTV silicone, it is good stuff when used in the proper application, which is not control valves.
Nice catch alrman, if the parts pages are to be trusted, that double notch in flow control spool on left in pic would be the A38031 valve body. :notworthy
He would also need gasket G46824 for regulator valve.
Is the splined shaft the circlip is on crooked in the housing? . . .
Frisky, No the photo may make it look that way but the splined shaft is probably 2 ft long and fits into a cast "tunnel" in the torque tube and to the transmission input shaft. I't's about 1 3/4 "round. It can't be put in there crooked. Hope this answers your question as I understand it. Thanks,Packratc
Alrman, I'm not sure what part you're refering to as the "oil distribution plate". Can you clarify? Willie59, is the G46824 gasket for the later regulator valve body different than the one for the earlier regulator valve body? One more question: Do either of you think that the changes of gaskets, now that we suspect that my machine has the later valve body, can get reverse back in my life? Thanks for your help.
I thought you already tried to run it with the A38030 & A38029? .... You can only try it Packrat The G46824 regulator gasket is common to all the models, thank goodness. Is there a part number on the distribution plate by any chance?
I'll look for a part number on the distribution plate in a minute. I have the A38030 gasket in my hand but I need a photo of the A38029 gasket to identify it. I think Phil had photo of them in a long ago post. Since Chico is outside and on the payroll I don't have time to look through it all right now. If no one has it handy don't worry about it. I can find it tonight. I want to get it ordered before the weekend, if I need to, so I can have it in hand by Monday. Still no speculation as to whether this will fix my problem? Did you have the spring and ball bearing circled in the drawing for some specific purpose this time, Alrman? Thank you all! Packratc
Well, as Alrman says, "the plot thickens". Maybe it gets lumpy now. Ya' know? This site is a lot of fun, even when it brings you bad news. And even when you do something or have to fess up to something that just makes you feel like an idiot. But, it realy doesn't me, 'cause I been this way all my life. Since Alrman asked me for a serial number on, I think, the baseplate, which I have yet to identify, I looked around a little bit and found a number right on top of this whole deal. I had cast it off as I thought it was a casting number, and it might be. But, I took a photo, which I'll try to include here, and we'll see what lumps that adds to the plot. Thank you all, Packratc
Sorry packrat, the detent ball & spring was circled for an earlier post, I reused the picture. Although the one in your photos does look a little rickety. My speculation is probably best not shared with you right now, I want you to remain as positive as possible 'ol matey PS - I keep looking at that picture of that forward gear at the back of the shuttle, it just does not look like it is sitting parallel to the shaft. If you look at the circlip groove & the edge of the gear it don't look right. If you put a couple of prybars in there & prise the gear back towards the front of the machine, are you sure it won't square up & then have room for shims?
Packy, that A38032 number ain't gonna do you no good, that's the part number for the body casting itself, not the valve as an assembly. The A38032 body casting is "not sold separately" [NSS], so the number won't even show up in the parts book. I can't say for certain, but I'd wager alrman is correct in that your valve assembly is A38031.
Alrman, I went back & looked at the pics I sent out and I agree it looks "cocked". As it's a gear and it the inside of it is grooved to fit on a grooved shaft I don't see how it can be crooked. However, I will put a couple of bars in there and "prise" back on it. I don 't mind the bad news about tearing this thing back down. If it needs it I want to get at it. It'll be a lot easier this time around. Thanks, Packratc
Finally got the two new gaskets (A38030 & A38029) and put the shuttle/converter control valve back together. I think I've reached new heights. Hydraulic fluid came out of the air breather on top of the valve. But the good news is that it only happened when the control was in reverse. The wheels, of course, continued in the foward direction. I think tomorrow I'll check & make sure that the lines to the filter & cooler haven't been reversed. I also had almost 200 lbs of pressure which insured that the fluid flowed well out of the breather. I hope I can continue to bring forth both humor and pity to your realm of emotions. Packratc
Packy, I do believe you have a situation that would baffle even the engineers who designed the thing. I do hope you get your problem sorted out though.
Wow Packrat I feel for you. Hope you get this old girl straightened out.
Alrman, I've been taking sort of a break on this thing but plan to get back to it next week. I'm convinced that it's got to come back apart. I've been looking at an old post between Sam and Phil that seems like it was one of the last that Phil put on the site. Someone on there came up with the same problem of oil coming out of the breather but there was where the thread stopped. You were on the thread at the last. Do you have any idea where the rest of that thread picked up again, if it did? If you have any, give me some hints on what to look for when this baby comes back apart. I'm convinced that it went back together "too long" as there has to be a need for spacers on the out put end. Thanks, Packratc
Not sure of the thread your talking about there packratc, as you know, phil is greatly missed & I'm just trying to help those suffering with "580ck/B - itis". Usually when oil comes from a breather, it is because of a massive internal oil hemerage. The fact you have a loss of pressure in REV would indicate that to be your situation. The loss of pressure during your "test C" is also a concern as there should always be pressure in neutral & slightly less (but the same) in FWD & REV. You will have to open her up again & carry out a thorough forensic examination. Take a real good look at things as you pull each item apart - don't just dismantle & reassemble. I am guessing a rubber seal on the reverse piston. A good way to test the piston seals on the bench is to use a rubber tipped air nozzle & blow air into the oil galleries. The air pressure will be enough to lock up the packs & you should not hear any leaks. Do you think you can you get some shims behind the shuttle now?
Hi guys, it was me who had the oil coming out of the breather. Here is what I found out. Hope it is helpful to you. In trying to resolve the problem I am dealing with, I seperated the shuttle control valve from the oil distribution plate. while doing this I apparently allowed the forward/reverse spindle to pull out alittle to far. Unknown to me at the time, the little detent ball (circled in the previous post) was pushed up behind the spool in the valve body. Not knowing this I put it all back together. When I started it up, I got the catistrophic oil hemorage mentioned earlier. Not to mention, I nearly had a hemorage myself!!!! Hope this info is helpful to you. If you also seperated these two parts, this may be exactly what happened to your 580. Also, with the detent ball up behind the spindle, you would not be able to put the shuttle in reverse.
Thanks Alrman for your reply. Good advise. Sleepyhollow has come through with a reply like I had hoped he would. When I first put the valve back together I glued the gaskets and that helped keep the ball & spring in place. Have put it back together a couple of times since then and tried to keep it all together. Can't really safely day that I'm confident that the control valve couldn't have come out too far. It's something to look at first. Thanks Sleepyhollow. I'm still convinced that the whole thing will have to come apart. I'll do the "in housing" air test first, if possible. Apprectiate all the good advise. Packratc
Well, with a little time off and some good whiskey to fortify us, we split the hoe back apart yesterday. Have learned a little bit and this time split it like a backhoe instead of the first time when we split it like a tractor, which we both had done before. We backed the rearend, steering assembly, torque tube, and fuel tank out from the frame rails and engine in a little less than three hours. We already had the fluids drained. Tomorrow we dig in and try to remember how to get the shuttle out. Packratc
good luck freind !!! I think I finally have mine beat. I dismantled the clutch preasure releif in the shuttle control valve and the other preasure releif located next to the shutle control valve. Both were seized up. I cleaned and polished both and put it all back together, added the fluids and started her up. I let it run for 15-20 minutes to circulate the fluids through out and bleed out any air. Finally I tried to move it. I was pleasantly surprised when it took off with out hesitation. Backward and forward like a raped ape !!! Hopefully my troubles are over.......... Sleepyhollow
MMM! Good to hear of your success, sleepyhollow. I've never witnessed the horrible violence of a rape upon an ape. Surely it has to be extremely violent and upsetting to both the ape and the viewer. The very image has me calling my VA shrink and hoping he'll increase my meds. The only way I could understand such behavior is that if the ape happens to be a very good operator. Good luck to you and your ape. May you dig many hoes together. I might advise you to dig a hole and bury any evidence that the animal rights folks could get ahold of. As for me, the shuttle is on the workbench, which in my case is a hospital guerney. I feel like a real operator when I'm working on it. Am looking into some issues and will try to learn how to post pictures again so I can share my pain and stupidity with the group. Packratc
Packratc I admire your tenacity and sure hope you get that rascal figured out soon. I have been using mine to build some water control structures the last couple of days and think about you about every time I shift it.
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, Well, I uploaded 6 photos of Chico and I doing the "air test" on the 580CK. If you start at the top and if I loaded the same way I took them with my Iphone, you should see the shuttle in different positions. The first should be without air and then with air and the shuttle moves to squeeze the clutch pack. Then Chico's finger points to the hole that we put the air into. Keep in mind that the front clutch pack is the reverse gear. For some of you all that have been through this debacle with us you 'll understand. After were rebuilt the shuttle we put the air test to the shuttle via the holes that slide into the torque tube. The test you're seeing here is putting the same test through the passages in the torque tube that lead to the main shaft. In the hoe, of course, this is hydraulic fluid that is directed by your flow control valve and is changed from foward to reverse via the control at the left of your steering wheel.
Since we had foward gear and no reverse we wanted to see whether the movement of the piston to squeeze the clutch packs, foward & reverse, was the same. Maybe you can tell by the pics that we discovered that the movement was a lot more to the rear (to the foward clutch pack) than to the front (the reverse clutch pack. We deduced that the reverse clutches were not be sueezed together enough. We then took it apart following the service manual. We took of the three sealing rings that seal in the torque tube. We then removed the bearing that rides in the torque tube. What we found was that the thick thrust washer had ridden foward and the thrust bearing (which is only 1/16th in. thick) had gotten cocked and caught on the lip that the thrust washer stops at. Probably the first time we put it in gear the pressure squeezed the cocked bearing and bent it so it would no longer lie in place. This added to the length of the reverse clutch pack and is why we had no clearance (.025 to .045) between the shuttle and the transmission main shaft. You got all that? I may have missed something or misnamed something. If I did, let me know, so we can correct it. Next is lessons learned! packratc
I've seen written and illustrated somewhere, maybe the manual, that it isrecommended that you use a string or wire to tie the ends of the shuttle together while you transport it between the workbench and the installation in the torqe tube. It was probably at that stage that one of us let slack get in the assembly and the thrust washer and bearing got out of place. When I had no clearance at the transmission main shaft I should have stopped right then and taken it back apart. As I've learned since then, nobody has ever put one together (that I've talked to) that didn't have clearance and the require installation of shims. So now I've ordered a new thrust bearing and washers and a couple of gaskets. Parts man at the dealership said they come as a package only for about $100. He says that is for three thrust bearings. I think it's just one with the two washers. One must remember that there are two sets of thrust bearings in the reverse clutch back and only one in the foward gear clutch pack and they have different thickness of thrust washers. My parts won't be in until the middle of next week and then we'll try this assembly trick again. I apologize for the length of these posts but I'm hoping it'll save someone in the future. Packratc
The next day I reviewed my long posts of yesterday and I realize now that you probably can't tell enough from the pictures how much movement there actually is there to be seen. I really don't think that the middle of the shuttle moves a total of 3/4's of an inch, maybe an inch, for its total movement from complete pressure on one clutch pack to the other. My photos would have been more telling had I held the camera (Iphone) in exactly the same place for every picture. Thanks, Packratc
Guess I should be ashamed of myself for how long this project has taken. And it still goes on. And life has gone on in between it. Let's see: First time I put it back together we had not held the shuttle together tight enough and one of thrust bearings and washers had seperated, got cocked, resulting in no end clearance at the transmissin mainshaft, and the thrust bearing was bent. We had no reverse. Took it all back apart and fixed it. All back together and still no reverse. Took it all back apart and found that we had broken the middle locking ring on the shuttle mainshaft when we put it back together. (This is one of the three rings that go into the machined bore in the torque tube.) Put it back together but this time, only enough to get it running and put it in gear. At first we had no reverse. Chico was on the seat and I had started the machine by shorting out the starter.No need in wiring it all up to check it all out. Man, his shoulders slumped and he was shaking his head back and forth. I started playing with the linkage and the tires hesitated and turned a little backwards. When I put it in gear by hand at the control valve where I could feel the detents, it went into reverse. We had backed out the stop screw when trying to adjust it previously and the hand control pulled the valve too far out. So, we now have foward and reverse. The pressure meter read almost 200lbs and dropped when you pushed in the "clutch". Let the hoe down and it moved back and forth with just a little hesitation going into revese. Then we put the frame back together. I'll have to go back and run the pressure tests at the valve and see were we are. I've forgotten the numbers. Still some problems. See next post. packratc
Hydraulic fluid drips out of the bellhousing at a fast drip. We had put in another brand new gasket. We left off the bottom half gasket. Back when we built the engine, while in the frame, the engine gasket kit came with a gasket for the bottom of the bellhousing. We used it then. When we took the torque tube off we got the full gasket at that's what's in it now. Is the thing getting too much fluid in the bell housing? I've never fooled with a machine that has a wet bellhousing before. The way I see it, the fluid level in the bellhousing has to be level with the reservoir level? Is there some way that it can pump too much fluid into the bellhousing? Hope you all have wise words of wisdom. Thanks, Packratc
Reverse! Finally some light at the end of the tunnel! :beerchug Don't be ashamed of how long this job has taken you packrat, what you have done, without any real experience, it's a credit to you & Chico :thumbsup Money doesn't grow on trees & you can only do what you can, in between all the other projects & duties you have. How much oil do you think is in the bellhousing? Do you think it's above the trans level or below? Where is it leaking from? Bottom, side, all round? Did you use sealant with the gasket?
I'll have to check again tomorrow. I think Chico said it was coming out near the bolt hole on "his" side, which is the left side. I'd say that was half way up. Can I take out the timing plug and see if it comes out there while running? Drip comes from the bottom but it's seeping down the side. I'll take photos. Want to say this: Before putting it together the last time we did the air test again. It seemed like a lot of air was coming through the mainshaft like it was leaking past the rings in the torque tube. But too much leakage wouldn't let it go into gear. A mechanic at the dealership said you couldn't tell much by that. What I'm getting at is there any way it can be pumping too much fluid foward? Good to hear from you, Alrman, Thanks, Packrat
, I hope your seeing a photo of the leak at the bellhousing. It seems to be coming out of the corner where the casting that bolts under the oil pan. I'm struggling for the words to name the arms that come back from the front axle to stabilize it. In the photo you can see in the corner the new gasket, kind of a triangle of it. And you can see the fluid begining it's course down the bellhousing lip to fall off at the bottom. I'm wondering if I can take the casting down and seal it. The other leak it at the lowest bolt of the starter. Suggestions? (Other than having my manual in front of me when typing messages so I can properly name the parts.)Thanks, Packratc
packrat, I really don't know what to suggest for you.......but here goes. Of the CK / B models I have worked on I don't recall that much oil being in the bellhousing .... if any at all. I have just gone through this entire thread & most of the attention is focused on the shuttle & very little on the convertor. Can I refer you back to page 4, my first post. While it was apart, did you look closely at the main convertor housing, at each 5/16" bolt drilling to be certain none were cracked? Did you end up replacing the bronze bushing in the hub? (#9) The seal rings (#7) were they replaced & was there any wear in their sealing area? On page 3 post #39 you mention oil coming from holes at the convertor flange area, what did that look like on your re-entry effort? I know the manual does not state it but it may be a good idea to seal that flange with some loctite 515. If there is meant to be oil in the bellhousing (as some CK's supposedly were....) it would logically have to be at the same level as the shuttle, & there must be some type of gallery/passage for the oil to pass between the two of them, or else the bellhousing would fill to the top & begin to pressurise.........I can't really advise you on this, but this seems logical to me & you have the tractor to look at & I don't. Hope this helps ol mate :drinkup
Thanks for the response, Alrman. I replaced all the sealing rings in the torque converter and the shuttle. I also replaced the large bronze bushing. I was concerned about that bushing as the old one was like 1.5 inches wide and the new one only 1 inch wide. I had the parts man check it for dimensions and they were for 1 inch, evidently a replacement part. I remember thinking that the small bolts had fluid on them that at first looked like it had come through the converter but we then decided that it might be just drippings. Am I interpreting your questions and comments as that your thinking that there's fluid coming through the converter main shaft and over filling the bell housing? Or that fluid is leaking out of the converter and over filling the ball housing? Like you, I would think that the fluid level would only be that of the torque tube level and remain there. Packratc
I went back and read your post #46. Only way to check it is too spit the tractor the third time. Right now, with the fluid checking low, the thing goes into forward firmly with a jolt. It hesitates a little going into reverse, almost like it needs to pump more fluid to go into reverse. The hoe is not on it so can't check to see if it has pushing power. Pressure gauge goes almost to 200 in forward but only about 125 in reverse. I noticed this morning that it went almost to 200 in reverse when the fluid was cold. As far as driving the hoe around the pasture, if there is no slippage, one could operate the hoe just fine. It just leaks the heck out of fluid. packratc
I must admit I've never worked on these components of a CK, so I can't offer any advice. But the thing that puzzles me, that gear that's circled in alrmans diagram above, that gear drives the shuttle pump. If there were no oil in the convertor housing, or not supposed to be oil in the convertor housing, then what would lubricate those two gears meshing together? Just a thought.
Good to hear from the Eastern neighbor. You mentioned this early on, Willie59, and I'm pretty confident that their's supposed to be fluid in the bell housing. I think it's been mentioned that the starter requires oil seals to prevent damage by the hydraulic fluid. When I replaced my starter I just got a rebuilt replacement. I need to call the rebuilder, in Nashville, and see if they have the seals for the starter. Thanks for the input as it's always welcome. I need all the help I can get with brainstorming on this project. Packratc
It will definatly leak thru the starter if it is not a sealed starter.
Hi Packratc. Did you use sealant on your gaskets? On my 580b project the service manual said to use gasket sealant on the torque tube gasket. Don't know if this could explain that much of a leak though. Also, the bellhousing is supposed to have fluid in it. It did in my machine, and I've confirmed that this is normal with several people. It gets filled from the shuttle area and has a wall to hold fluid up by the converter.
No I didn't use sealer. I had last time and I scraped it off and used a new gasket this time. I'm thinking that I'm going to drain all the fluid. Measure the amount I put in there, & then run it. Then I'll drain the bell housing and see how much comes out. If it's more than a gallon I'd say that too much is up there. But I really don't know how much should be in there. Then I guess I can split the tractor about 1/2 inch and apply the sealer. Then close it up and hope for the best. Any other suggestions, I'm looking foward to hearing them. Thanks,, Packratc
Any updates?
Thanks for asking, 5kw. I just couldn't bring myself to split it again since it was shifting so well until I tried everything I could to stop the leaks. I talked to the guys at the dealership again & asked around. Got the advice to try to seal it with weatherstripping sealant by 3M. This is the black stuff in tubes used to hold rubber stripping to door jams. I removed the mount that the radius rods pivot on and dropped the pan. Coated it all with dobbing of it in the corners. Put it back together. Forgot that I had only drained the bell housing so I over filled it with about 2 gallons. Meanwhile I returned the starter to the rebuilder and he put in the two seals for a wet bell housing. Stopped the leaks except for the lowest starter bolt and maybe a couple of the rear oil pan bolts. I put tefon tape on the starter bolt. Just have a slight drip now. Today we tried to put the hoe back on it but ran out of time. I decided I wouldn't know if the shuttle was fixed or not until I ran the hoe and moved dirt with the bucket and all. Will get back to it in a couple of days. I'm probably dreaming but maybe the dripping will quit when it leaks down to normal level. I hope it takes months. packratc
Thanks for the update. Keep us posted and keep your chin up!
Well, the hoe is back on & we've dug a couple of days. Still leaking around the starter & maybe the rear oil pan bolts. Ordered starter gasket & will put it on this week. Still think that the torque tube is way over full. Take the dipstick out while it's' running & fluid goes everywhere. Checks several inches above the mark. fluid is so clear it's hard to see. Motor oil is the same clearness. Hoe is leaking everywhere. I'll get them one at a time. I put the 2 ft bucket on it and it digs easily & with plenty of power full of wet soil & mud. Have not out floorboard on the right so the foot pedal is not in place. I'm lacking another spring on one barke pedal & they need to be readjusted so the clutch will go in with brake application. Chic has habit of using clutch all the time. Shuttle works good except Friday it began not going into reverse quickly. Had more & more hesitation & the required reving up of engine. It kicks in & pushes well. Think I need to check all adjustments on brakes, clutch, & accelerator. For the first time the engine over heated. Go up to 250 degrees. Let it set & idle & it came back down. It had kicked out some water so I replenished it with 1/2 gal. antifreeze. Am somewhat confused about operating temperature of shuttle fluid. When hot you can't hold on to the dipstick to check fluid level. Can almost hold your hand on the radiator & lines to cooler but the fluid itself is pretty hot. I'm wondering if I should change the shuttle filter again. Remember I've had this thing apart 3 times. Ran it in & out of pond for 2-3 hrs and it started running rough, sort of cycling up & down. Put in new fuel filters the next day ($23) & that solved that. I had thought the tank was pretty clean but I've found water in the diesel fuel and shaking the machine up pretty good probably loosens things up. I'll use it some today or tommorow & see how shuttle is when it's not warmed up to too hot. I'll put foot accelerator & add fluid to loader. I would advise you all to buy stock in hydraulic fluid until I get all these leaks stopped. The dipper cylinder wiper started leaking Friday. From where I've been, leaking cylinders are like changing diapers to a new parent with twins. It's just something you do. This is/was sort of a disjointed dialogue. I welcome comments, suggestions, prayers, or donations. It's a good thing I just fool with these things for the fun of it. I can't afford to go bankrupt. Packratc
Apologies for not editing the previous post. It's a mess. Damn, there's a B for sale near here for $2000. It's been in a flood. Just what I don't need. Packratc
If the torque tube is over full would that mean that the torque converter is flooded? That could be the cause of your fluid getting hot.
You may not need it but we certainly do.
What do you need, OldandWorn? Thanks for the tip on the overheating fluid. I also noticed that the return line is about 3/8 inch from the exhaust pipe. Chico's been the operator for the last couple of days as he's a whole lot better and more confident than I am, especially on the rim of this here pond. I got out & operated it for about an hour.. Started good & went in gear after about 4 minutes of warming up. Temperature is about 55F here. Moved dirt/clay for about 45 minutes. In/out gear real good for about half an hour and then started to hesitate going into reverse. Always goes foward with a jerk & front wheels come up if you have any kind of RPM at all. Engine temperature up to 200F while shuttle is pausing going into reverse. I include this to let you know how much I was using it. Pressure guage hooked up where dash guage used to be, is incremented in 10 degrees. Starts working at 195-200 lbs. Goes to zero when clutch is depressed. Consistently stays at 190 in foward. Shuttle to reverse & drops to 145 or so and then hesitates before hooking up. I'm wondering if my fluid is thinning out with temperature rise. I'm using Tractor Supply Pureflo (sp?) Extreme. Says it is Hytrans compatable. Costs $35 for 5 gallons. Using it in loader and shuttle. Am wondering if I added lucas or some other hi-grade oil to thicken it up. Or, should I go to a better oil? I'll drain some fluid tomorrow & see if that helps the temperatue. Might wait until I get starter gasket. Let me know what you all think. Thanks, packratc I'm thinking I might buy that B. It's about 70 miles. Probably cost me $200 to $300 to get it here. What do you need, OldandWorn or do you want the whole deal?
Oh goodness gracious no Packy....buy the B for thee. This thread is winding down and we need some continuing entertainment.
Hang in there Packrat, at least she's doing work for you. Pretty odd shuttle symptoms you describe, I don't really know what to say about that. A few things I'll say from experience with my B's shuttle though. First, the pressure on my machine seems to be the same in forward and reverse, although thats just going by eyeball from the stock gauge. On the B at least there is also supposed to be a warning light for when the shuttle temp gets too high, but its probably missing on your machine like on mine. As for fluid the old machines need TCH compliant fluid, not HyTrans stuff. The cheap stuff they sell at the TSC near me isn't TCH compatible. I doubt that would explain your problems, but who knows.
Thanks,CasIns, for the reply. I'll check on the TCH fluid. I don't think my CK ever had a temperature guage for the shuttle. I'll check the manual, though. I would have thought that the pressure would be/stay the same also. I wonder about the three rings that seal mainshaft in the torque tube. If one had more wear, specifically the one that seals reverse, don't know if that is the front or the rear one, if that could be the difference. But it seems that it would be low all the time. Hope someone else can tell me the difference in the fluids. Thanks again, Packratc
I hope that comment didn't come across the wrong way. It was meant as a compliment to your writing and thread that always rates high on my smile meter. What I know about a CK was gained from this thread so I haven't been much help there.
No, not taken the wrong way. I liked your turn of the word, "buy the B for thee". The person who has the B for sale emailed me today. The hoe was involved in the flood of 2010. Someone told him not to try to start it until he drained all the fluids. He's not done so & has never tried to turn it over by hand. Told him that a winter with a hoe full of water may have frozen & broken a LOT. By him not doing that I asked him if the hoe belonged to him. Seems like everyone that would own a backhoe would know to drain EVERYTHING right away and especially before a freeze. Packratc
!!!!???? Hey Packrat, Keep going like this & you will be crowned the HEF 580CK/B GURU! Good to hear Pandora is out in the sunshine again, even if she is leaving some trails behind her .......
Good to hear from you Alrman. Have used her now for four days straight about 4 to 5 hrs a day. Engine has overheated a little bit & I'm thinking that the radiator cap is too weak. I'd like to know what pressure they're suppposed to have. i'm pretty sure I had the shuttle over full. It's leaked down now & not leaking as much but the pressure has dropped also. It's go in foward real well but hesitates going into reverse. Pressure seems to stay higher in foward. It'll go in either gear at about 125 lbs. I don't have a stock guage. I had one made incremented in 10 lbs up to 600lbs. Did so so I can move it around and test all three ports. As of right now I've only had it in the port for the dash guage. As it's been so long since I've had it to use I've really been wanting to see it work. Kind of a self reward for all the time, work, and money. Incidently, when the shuttle engages it does so harshly and when you push it will do so until the tires spin & dig into the earth. Will continue in another post.
I have yet to pick up & install the starter gasket. Can't get it until Monday. At this point I have a hole in the metal loader line that decends below the loader control. It has been poorly repaired before. I'll have to take it off, grind down the bad welding and see if I can reweld it or have it repaired with a high pressure fitting. Also the right front loader cylinder has always leaked. I've got a replacement. Now the dipper cylinder is leaking at the wiper seal as is one of the backhoe swing cylinders. It just started and is leaking worse than all the rest. Oh, & there's three of the control valves leaking. It's now too expensive to run. I can't pick up the kits until Monday either. Maybe I should drain the shuttle and messure the amount of fluid that is in it & I'll have a baseline. I probably need to change to a different shuttle fluid. I probably need to change the shuttle filter. And, I probably need to check the shuttle linkage adjustments again and perform all the pressure tests at the three ports. If the tests indicate I might shim the regulator spool valve to increase pressure. I might do that anyway as the line pressure won't affect my leaks. I don't think. Do you think I need to consider a shuttle temperature guage? When we're done running it you can't check the shuttle fluid level as the plug with the dipstick is too hot to touch. Would appreciate any comments or feedback. I'm still fumbling around in the dark. Thanks, Packratc
It all sounds like you need a "to do list" & to list repairs in order of importance or should I say, loss of oil........ The loss of pressure when in reverse is a problem as shimming won't fix that - but the transmission does not work hard in reverse & it may last for some time, depending on how much you use it. As far as fitting a shuttle temp gauge - I would not. But, get hold of a infra red thermometer & see what it actually is running at. It may be getting hot & warming the engine with it ......
I'll have to mull over the fact that the shimming won't fix the reverse. I would have thought that any increase in pressure would help. Some folks have said that I may have leaks or cracks in the torque converter. My feeling is that if it goes in gear and pulls hard for first it has to do the same thing for reverse as the torque converters function is always the same no matter where the fluid is routed behind it. I think that they felt that the torque converter was leaking too much fluid into the bell housing and causing exessive leaks. What do you think? Also, the chart for fluids for the 580ck shown here on this forum indicates High Trans for the shuttle fluid. Is it a replacement fluid for something that used to be used. This stuff breaks down to about 10 weight when it gets hot. Sure seems to me to need to stay a pretty much the same viscosity as when you put it in. Opinion? Thanks, Packratc
Re: shimming - this will give the operating system more pressure, but the leakage that is causing the pressure drop in reverse will still drop the same pressure. Re: convertor cracks & excessive leakage into bellhousing - my first reply on this thread (page 4 #46) covers this Re: Hytrans - Very good oil made for Case that was not in existence when the CK/B's were being made. Case recommend this oil for just about all their transmission applications nowdays. But, any 10wt transmission oil made by your most convenient supplier should suffice - (Case TCH) that is what was originally put into these transmissions. Re: engine overheating - I don't recall you saying there was a problem with the engine getting hot after the engine rebuild & before the transmission saga. Is that right? Did the engine start to overheat only after the tranny repair? :drinkup
Thanks for gettting back to me, Alrman. I reviewed post #46. I replaced the bronze bushing and all the seals. Did not notice a groove worn by the seal. I didn't inspect every hole in the converter for cracks. If there was/is one it wasn't readily apparent. So I'll stick with the hytrans fluid is your advice? As to the engine over heating; No, never had a problem before but had not run it for such long periods making it work pretty hard. Incidently, when it's over heated, the hoe has been stationary and the backhoe was being used for digging. The engine was at 3/4 throttle or above. As my hoe does not have a neutral, the manual transmission has to be in neutral when using only the hoe. I know that the torque converter turns all the time. Are you suggesting that the shuttle is over heating and causing the engine to everheat as they're both cooled by the radiator. Or, are you suggestioning that the engine is overheating and causing the radiator to over heat the hydrauic fluid? You know, when you put in new hy trans it's about 20 to 30 weight. When I check it after it's been running it's 10 weight or probably thinner. Does everyone's fluid thin out with the use and heat? What about adding STP or another thickening high-grade oil? I know this would make it take longer to get into gear when you first start it on a cold morning. Back to the other: Are you also saying that if there's too much fluid in the bellhousing that the continual "sloshing" of it by the outside of the torque converter over heats the fluid? Thanks for your continual input. I'm always learning. I'm always learning new cuss words, that is. Packratc
Incidently, the engine has 60lbs of oil pressure when started. It never drops below 50lbs. It's only spit out water twice. When the temperature guage gets over 200 we usually idle it down for a few minutes. It drops just about like you would expect a car or truck would. I think I'll put in a new thermostat and radiator cap. That couldn't hurt. Don't really know why I need a thermostat. The heater/defroster doesn't work anyway. It may benefit from a better fan shroud than the stock one or a six bladed fan. Just thinking out loud. Packratc
Re overheating - Yes, I was thinking that the shuttle may be getting hot first & then dragging the engine along with it. But, if it is happening when loader is not being used that blows that theory...... replacing the thermostat may be a good idea. If in doubt, boil the new & old together in a container & see if they open at the same time. It helps you to sleep better if you see the old one not doing it's job & you know you have to keep looking for your problem if it is OK. I'm not sure about the bellhousing oil level affecting shuttle temperature - certainly may produce a little more drag, but whether enough to actually raise temperature - :beatsme As said ealier - do a check on the transmission temp & see if it is actually a problem. Re oil - yes all oil will thin when warm. If the hy-trans is convenient to get a hold of & you are happy with the price - by all means use it. And, NO, don't try any additives in the oil, they may cause a problem with the grip of the clutch plates.
Hi there, new here. I have a 19?? 580ck paraplegic backhoe that I traded for a year or so ago. The hoe, loader, and the enginge work great, but the shuttle, like many, is a no go. I am going to try and tear down my shuttle next spring. I have already taken the pump plate off, cleaned the screen, installed new seals, and reinstalled it. It helped the tractor move a little at high rpms on level ground, before I didnt have anything. Also I do not have reverse. But any who..... I have a question. In the left pic on packratc post #52, the gear between the clutch pack and the transmission spins another gear below it. Can anybody tell me what the bottom gear and shaft do or go to. The reason I ask is upon refilling the torque tube I got to looking and that gear is half way off the shaft, not being spun by the top gear. Any help is much appreciated. Thanks jnl
Are you saying thats the lower gear is halfway off the shaft? Do you mean that it has slid toward the rear? Would highly recommend that you invest in manual. I bought a CD first and it was/is OK. The factory reproduction manuals are the cat's meow. There's a lower jackshaft that you have to remove to take the shuttle out. My manual is out in the shop and I'm too old to remember the the proper name. It's all on this site somewhere. Keep looking and good luck. Packratc
That is the reverse idler gear jnl - get it back into place & retained & you have your reverse problem fixed! - Now if only packrat's was that easy....
packratc- Yes sir it slid off towards the back (transmission side). im not sure how it came apart. On another note I think the clutches may have burned up inside the shuttle because when I first brought it home, the bolts were loose on the bottom side of the shuttle, where it bolts to the tranny. needless to say, you couldnt keep fluid in it. The previous owner said he dug a small pond with it prior to our trade. So im thinking it has ran for a while without fluid. Would that make since? I recently downloaded a manual from emanualpro.com.... It's pretty good, I think it has 600+ pages. I'll keep looking for a factory reproduction manual. Thanks alrman- Thanks. That makes since. Cant wait to get it split (I think ). I'm hoping to get it up and going soon. So far I think I have $1350 invested in it, hopefully the shuttle repairs won't break the bank. lol
More info. After I cleaned the screen and replaced pump plate gaskets as I mentioned earlier, I replaced the broken clutch pressure gauge with an 80 psi gauge. After I fired the hoe up it pegged the gauge, im guessing it had 95-100psi, and still would barely go on level ground. Thats why im thinking the forward clutches are toast. Am I heading in the right direction or crazy?
What? And have this literary saga that we've been following come to an end?
For jnl:I thought that it had to be reverse but I couldn't bring up the proper name out of they gray matter. Was to lazy to go out & get the manual & didn't want to give bogus info. I think the guage has to be up to at least 200lbs. Mine runs 190 to 200 when cold & after it's run and hours or so it's down to 175 at 3/4 throttle. It engages at about 100 to 125. I'd recommend a 50 to 300 gauge. Packratc
packratc- I was able to find a bigger 500psi gauge to do my checks. Now I just have to find the time to check it out. I was wondering how many pages does your shop manual have in it total? The one I downloaded has a little over 600 pages. Its a very good manual. (I think). Im just trying to see if theres a better one out there that would be worth the mula. Thanks
JNL, I think you got thee max. I think mine's about that length but it's in hard copy. It wern't cheep! Hope your 500PSi guage is calibrated in small enough increments to read. Mine's piped into where the regular stcok dash guage went. Good luck, Packratc
packrat, I read this whole post, I felt your pain...glad you got it working...I have a ole 480B that looks about like yours
Thanks for the sympathy, Keithw. We're digging pretty good now. Fixing leaks in cylinders, blowing old hoses, etc. That's the stuff you expect. I gotta tackle the leaks at the spindles of the backhoe. Haven't addressed the over heating yet. It hesitates going into reverse when it warms up but then pulls good. Trying to get a little work done before winter really hits here in Tennessee. Packratc
That is my next repair packratc, my boom cylinder seal seeps constantly and I can't use my hoe until I fix it. The other problem is all of my cylinders have rust pits on the rams
Keithw, I feel your greasiness. I'm convinced that one spends the rest of his days fixing leaks on these ol hoes. I was lucky last year and able to buy four spare cylinders for $30 each. I've got a bucket cylinder to put on and my dipper cylinder is leaking. Just rebuild a swing cylinder this week and replaced one blown out hose. You know that when you fix one leak the pressure the system was losing at that leak is restored and builds up the pressure on all the other weak places. In my Case I have replaced the hydraulic pump so I hope I'm at prime pressure. Oh, I also had a metal pressure line welded up this week. Today we ran the hoe about 2.5 hrs and the hydraulic line manifold at the base of the hoe sprang a leak. The leak is right at the junction where the lines are welded together. I'll be lucky if it is thick enough to take a weld. But, a bit of encouragment: Everything I've fixed on the hydraulic system as made an improvement. I only have a 12" & a 24" bucket. I'd kinda like to try a 36" as I think this old girl would handle it now. BTW, I think there about four different cylinder kits for each of the cylinders on a model 33 hoe. They'll ask you right away if you have a one piece or two piece cylinder. Just saying, take your serial number and maybe the cylinder when you go to buy the cylinder kits. It might save you a trip. Good luck, packratc
I just started taking apart my boom cylinder yesterday and couldn't budge the gland nut so it is still waiting for my next attempt. wow, $30 a cylinder is a steal...around here, more than likely I will have to take the worst of mine to to the local hydraulics shop where they cut off the end of the cylinder and re-weld it onto a new cylinder ram. Supposedly that costs around $300. I tried taking a dremel tool with a brass brush tip and smoothing down each rust pit to see how well that works and it is a useless endeavor as far as I can tell, probably made it worse as the chroming was wore off a bit around the rust pit itself.
I've been lucky so far as all my glan nuts have been relatively loose. I'm sure I'm going to have to make a tool pretty soon, or buy one. Incidently, the last one needed a punch in one of the wrench holes to convince it to loosen. I'd try a 5 inch pipe wrench I had one or could borrow one. Sounds like the pitting you're grinding on is too deep to fix. I've wondered if some real good epoxy glue wouldn't do it for a while until a guy found a used cylinder. It'd be interesting to try. Good luck, Packratc
Hey Packratc, How about and update?
It's hard to believe it's been so long since I've been on this great site. MY old computer crashed & I lost all my contacts. My old 580ck still is unfinished. We used it for probably 50 to 70 hrs last year. The hesitation going in between forward & reverse is still there and quite annoying. It's best to use it entirely without the "clutch" & it's go into gear pretty good. It's been sitting for some months due to leaks. I've got another (this is the second) crack in the pipe manifold that bolts to the boom & the boom cylinders attach to it. I've had one crack brazed up in it and it has sprung another. I'd buy another of those manifolds to keep this from happening again & again as I think it will. It's funny that I got this post today as I started the beast up yesterday to get warm to check the antifreeze. I used the bucket to move some firewood for a weeny roast last night. Things to fix on the hoe are one, maybe two cylinders to fix or replace, fix two spool controls for the hoe that have always leaked, fix one steering cylinder that has developed a leak, put a grill in it, & straighten the right loader arm. All these things should have already been done but once I got it useable I had to put it to use. Thanks for asking, chase546. I'll check in more often. I still don't regret buying this old hoe. She's been a money pit but I've learned a lot, gotten a lot of work done, hope to do a lot more, & have really enjoyed this site. Packrat
Packratc, I am glad to hear you don't regret buying it. I bought a 580CK, standard clutch, non-power shuttle, and haven't even got to bring it home yet, lol. I have only had it a few weeks and I have had second thoughts a few times about it. It's my first large piece of equipment and is a learning experience. All of the cylinders leak, most of the steering shot, probably needs all the hoses, the brakes are seized up and it had a light duty car tire on the front that blew out when I raised the bucket. But it runs!! So there is hope!! I have been reading up on all the posts related to the 580CK and stumbled upon yours. Lots of information and great input from knowledgeable people. Gives me hope for mine.
Hang in there that is how a lot of us started out..
Did you get the pond finished Packratc ? Any pictures available of it ???
Hey Packratc, now that you have painted your 580 and fancied it all up. My I take a shot at the roughest 580ck?
We could have a winner ...... :tong Packrat still has a flair for his penmanship - will be very hard to beat. Good to hear from you ol' timer!
I think you have a chance chase546, some aerosol cans on the swing post, an open 5 gal bucket (seems to always be associated with an old machine), a drip pan, scotch block behind the rear wheel, and a flat LF tire. Curious though that you have a scrap container in the background. I hope that doesn't upset the old girl.
Lol, I didn't think of that Willie59. It's sitting behind the tractor shop next to the junk yard. I rescued it from its final fate. I've used 10 can of spray penetrate so far. 2 5 gallon containers of hydraulic fluid. Drip pan because the swing cylinder gland seals failed and I pulled both cylinders apart to repack. And a scotch block because the brakes/ parking brake doesn't work and the clutch is seized and its in neutral. Gotta start some where. I just got 2 new Goodyear Laborers off ebay for the front. Waiting for it to stop raining to continue my descent into madness.