I'm stuck at home today so was raking up fir cones in the yard and I got to thinking about all the mistakes I've made when I worked as an employee for a company. Figured I would put them in a rules list for discussion and maybe clue some of the younger people on here of what you might be looking forward to. Anyway here goes: John’s Rules of Being an Employee 1. Always do the job you were hired for All your leverage with an employer is earned by you doing what you are supposed to do 2. Do not cost yourself any money by doing more than you were hired for 3. Do not put your health at risk doing something for your employer 4. Never become indebted to your employer That will give the employer leverage over you 5. Never become loyal to your employer They will never become loyal to you Their first priority is to the business Your first loyalty is to you and your family 6. Always have your eyes open for a better job. 7. Never go backwards to another job. It needs to be better to move, IE: pay, better work, better atmosphere, etc 8. Always consider the total benefits package Pay, training, medical, dental, retirement, profit sharing, 401K, etc 9. Never stay in a caustic atmosphere 10. Never break any laws for any company
show up for work or call if you're not going to make it. I had two no shows today, no calls. one of them I'm pretty sure what happened but the other guy I hope he's okay. Edit: I finally got him on the phone he's all right but is having family problems, his father's health. Right up with there with your priority John c taking care of family.
Wise and thoughtful insite, John C. #10 is why I left my last employer. I was told to perform some illegal & unethical stuff. Higher-ups/leadership need subordinates to blame stuff on and be the fall guy. Especially when it comes to regulatory stuff like OSHA, EPA, Etc.. The corporate shield prevented people from going to jail years ago, but it’s more common nowadays to see individuals charged. I’m tempted to post links to the multiple terminal EPA clean air act violations & fines, but the world is too small. They paid the price and maybe learned a lesson. Until next time. It’s funny that we had to attend annual ethics training and sign agreements. We had an ethics department, full time staff and hotlines to call, but bad stuff still happens at the ground level.
It’s easy to say as an individual, that you will be ethical, not do illegal stuff, do the right thing, until things get complicated. Companies will toss bonuses at you, raises, promotions and make it hard to speak -up or terminate. Even when you know in the back of your head, it’s just wrong. The Sister company of my previous employer was involved in the SS El Faro disaster. A situation where the Captain was pressured to steam into a hurricane with a POS cargo ship. Afterwards, we had multiple meetings, training, consultants, seminars to talk about and change corporate culture. So a tragedy like that would never happen again. I don’t know if it helped, unfortunately. We still had bad things happen after the SS El Faro incident. One of these days I’ll share the story of when a brand-new, multi-million dollar MX facility burnt down when a manager told a driver to park a leaking and loaded gasoline tanker trailer inside the building. It’s epic.
I would like to see John’s post made into a sticky.
1,2&5 1 you always wanna prove your worth, it's a slippery slope. 2 falls right in with #1 5 I watched my mom put 24years and 4 monhs into a company. Started at ground level, got into production and ultimately ran fork trucks for them. When they decided to move, they're like thanks, by. I learned then, where loyalty gets ya. My entire heavy truck career was that of a gypsy whore. I got around. A lot
I am teaching those exact rules to my kids now. I got really bent out of shape when I found out that my stepson excepted money from his boss. I told him don't ever take money not earned or borrow money from your boss. He didn't think that it was a big deal and didn't understand why I was pissed about it. I had to tell him that when you allow your boss to give you money. You just let him put you in his pocket. And there will come a time he will lord it over you and want you to do something for him that you ordinarily wouldn't do for cheap or at all. My son didn't believe me and thought I was out of line. Well it didn't take long before his boss started calling in his favor. It got so bad that my stepson had quit because that one small favor turned into a never-ending " remember that thing I did for you?" It never gets old hearing that you were right and how did you know. I never took money not earned, but I have seen others do it and the result of. That was all I needed to see to know better.
I'm coasting to the retirement day, so for me, many of these excellent rules no longer apply as much. The current employer has it's warts and lumps, but they NEVER question my safety operations. Today I had a guy just step down into the deep end of a trench full of shoring, like we had been doing it for a hobby or something. I was not too kind about letting him know that my ass was on the line for keeping everyone safe and he barked back a bit, and I think he even called the home office. Later he came back to apologize to me. I expect somebody at the office let him know in no uncertain terms that I was looking out for him. They backed my action as I expect them to do. If they fail to do so I will be looking for my next last job.
My grandfather explained it to me when I was young. When the boss tells you to do something, you do it. Just keep your mouth shut and do it. Proved to be good advice more than once. One day l was doing my mind numbing production job...de-burring, inspecicting, washing and packing 1000 Chevette water pump impellers per shift Foreman tells me the break room windows need washing. I washed up and headed for the break room...got the windex and went to work...general forman walks in, gets a coffee and offers me a much better position. "I didn't want to draw attention to you on the machine floor". Ed
Our work is generally easy paced and manageable while not being crazy robotic, for a factory. All I want is for my team to be at work and do their job. They need to bust it when it's time. If we are behind you work hard and fast, so you don't have to all the time.
There are employers you can be loyal to. If you find one, and you're happy, drop anchor. My favorite contractor has operators that have been working for him for 15-20 years. Another bigger outfit i worked with had guys that were 40 year employees. Both are great companies.
Nice to hear about great companies. The usual problem with a great company is that the next generation takes over or sells the company and the current employees get the shaft.
the one I'm at is a family owned shop that the father has retired several years ago and the son doesn't have many years left before he packs it in. I'm thinking maybe 10 more. None of the kids or nephews have any interest in it so it'll probably get sold and broken up long after I'm gone.
Big one for me is accepting responsibility for your actions(if you mess up fess up) and if your not at work early your late
We have a lot of longevity and debatable loyalty where I'm at. I just passed my 25 year anniversary, which I never expected but it's been a decent place to work. We did change ownership to one of the most recognized brands on the planet about 15 years back and it hasn't been as good, but it's still ok.
Geez!! All these rules?!?!?! I haven't had to deal with these since I was 27 (I'll be 58 next week). SELF EMPLOYMENT RULES!!
No rules for the self employed, only consequences.
it took me a long time to learn rule 5. I love the list and I bet it will at least get the younger guys thinking!!!!
I guess I'm one of those 40 year guys, actually first day at the place was June of 1968, retired April of 2015. Just wish the company was the same when I retired as it was when I was first hired. Guess I should not complain too much as at one point the shop building had in the neighborhood of 25 people working in it or for it. That same building when I retired had just one, me!
I see that as you were the best of the lot, the most tolerant or the right combination of both. The key question I have is looking back, do you think you might have done better moving on before you were the only one left?
Wow, a lot of rules. Probably why I only worked for other companies for 7 years and then went on my own. #2 was always a problem for me, because if I didn't do it, it usually didn't get done. #3 was the big one and now at almost 63 I am paying for it big time. We always did what ever it took to get it done which I now look back and say it was stupid but now the pendulum has swung way to far the other way and kids can't do anything because of what might happen. And #8, I never had a job that offered benefits other than the opportunity to work and make a bit of a living. Around here back in the late 70's-early 80's most mechanics made around $4 to $5.00 an hour and no benefits.
Out of high school in 72 I made a little over $3 and hour on the bull gang in a saw mill. When I started as a mechanic in 79, I worked for a good equipment dealer. Floor sweeper and tool room made about $3.50. Second year apprentice wages were about $7.00 and hour. GI Bill supplemented that to about about $10.00.
That's a long list. So I'm glad that I made the right decision to be self-employed. It isn't easy to transition at first, but it pays off.
Good rules but I struggle with #2. I always did more than the job I was hired to do. I was qualified to do it and it paid off very well. I always wanted to see my employer make money and we are all hired to help them do so. I was paid well over scale for my job and got great bonuses to boot. Its a lot easier to get money out of a company that's making a fair, decent, profit than one that is struggling to survive. Now having said that, the company I worked for sold out to the management employees after I retired. Many of the good hands and project managers have since left and the remaining ones are grumbling and not producing like in the past. The new "owners" got real greedy all of a sudden. Watching to see how it all shakes out.
Rule #2 doesn't say anything about doing extra for your employer. It says don't spend "your" money to do it. I've had employers ask me to use my own pickup to go get parts and they wouldn't even offer to pay the gas money. I've seen mechanics put air compressors in company trucks because the company wouldn't do it. Sure it made the job easier for the mechanic, but it made a lot more money for the company of which they didn't reciprocate with payments to the wrench.
Well said OIH.
My rules. #1 No matter how much you hate the job your on at the moment don't do sloppy work or take short cuts-It your reputation, have self respect. #2 If the boss is a person who can't admit when he is wrong-your working for the wrong person. He's a jackass. #3 When your right about a issue-stick to your guns. When you are wrong admit it and holster your guns. People will see and have respect for you. #4 It's not all about the money, yes money is nice but having a sane life is more important. #5 You can't always please the boss, understand he's probably married too. #6 Ride your own horse never pattern after another at work or anywhere else. #7 Don't listen to other disgruntled employees, misery loves company. #8 Stay the hell away from company parties, dinners and get to gathers. #9 Build a skill level that others only dream about-It will help keep you employed. #10 I don't have a number 10.
#10 don`t worry be happy
I was bored and surfing through LinkedIn and caught this set of requirements for a shop mechanic. My point is that I only know a handful of people who could fulfill all those bullet points, most of them on this board. I guess they aren't proud of what they pay either. Any other interpretations of comments? HEAVY EQUIPMENT SHOP MECHANIC Qualified Applicants Must Have The Following Minimum 7 years experience Knowledge in hydraulics, electrical, engines, transmissions, differentials, suspensions, air brakes Air brake repair certification A clean DOL record - must have a valid driver’s license Able to read and understand service manuals Tools to perform minor and major repairs on heavy equipment and class 8 trucks Self-motivated Team oriented and a hard worker that takes pride in his/her work Competitive Pay And Benefits Medical, Dental, and Vision insurance. Employer match 401k program Paid time-off. Advancement opportunities for driven individuals. We are looking for individuals who are safe, skilled, productive, and take pride in their work. Pay range unavailable Salary information is not available at the moment.
What's the issue? They want someone capable of handling whatever comes through the door, and don't want every swinging *ick in the state asking for an application and wasting their time. Seven years experience with that skill set pretty much weeds out riffraff, and not posting what it pays prevents the nosy, crybaby employees from seeing what a real mechanic can make. Perfect ad IMO.
Those bullet points don't mean anything. They will hire the first person that will lie good enough and pass a drug test. And if the bullshitter doesn't know what a mechanic with all of those qualities actually gets paid. Then he is likely going to ask for a dollar or two more than he's making as a entry-level mechanic. That's the reason for not putting a number on the pay per hour. They are gambling on hiring someone for a lesser wage. Ads like that I generally ignore unless I know the company and what they are paying already. Competitive wages in my experience means the lower end of the scale.
I know what I speak of about lying to get your foot in the door. I spent the first few years of my career of faking it until I made it. What kept me from being ran off. Is that I showed up everyday and on time. I worked hard and have a passion for the job so learning wasn't a problem. The problem that I had later in my career was the better I got the worse my attitude was. I was nearly 40 years old before I got humble enough for people to tolerate me. I still have the attitude and ego to match. I only now know when and where it's time to use it.
Says journeyman class skill for apprenticeship pay to me.
A bunch of something for nothing. Handle whatever comes through the door [a chief cook and bottle washer} and isn't good at either one. When the qualifications are narrowed down to {Mechanic wanted, experienced in engine and transmission work} then it's probably legit on wages. One of my favorites is shop that wants a mechanic that does everything including alignments. To be good at alignments takes years of knowing the different characteristics of all the different suspensions, tire tread types and brands, weight of vehicle and or how it's loaded. And any known issues with certain vehicles. It's very tough to find a alignment shop worth a **** these days. Why? because they have loaded that bay with anybody and everybody just to fill the spot. The guy doing your alignment just quit at Burger Stink the day before.
If someone was looking for a job or job change what's the harm in contacting the company about the pay rate? We've been running ads on Indeed and it's rather easy to communicate through the Indeed platform via PM, I am not familiar with the PM communication for job postings on Linkedin other than being a member. Over the last 1.5 years what we have ran into with ads on Indeed is there would be many people who would contact us, set up a time to meet and never show up. After 6-7 of these "candidates" we realized after talking to other business owners they were just setting up an interview they never intended on showing up to in order to keep the unemployment going. Now this is an entry level position with no experience necessary just show up on you get OJT. Might just be the younger crowd but it's frustrating.
So, why can't the ad be legit on wages?? I can think of at least 5 big contractors in this state that could be looking for a shop mechanic with an ad like that, and look to pay the right guy $30 per. All you clock-punchers seem to always be eternal pessimists, the boss is out to get you, blah, blah, blah. Maybe some of the super big ones are. But, there are a hell of a lot of small business owners who are looking for employees that don't have a chip on their shoulder.
I don't punch a clock. There looking for a guy to do everything-$30per hour?}. They want a welder/fabricator, a engine mechanic, transmission mechanic, suspension specialist, hydraulic expert, electrical expert, hvac expert, computer expert, body work experience and so on. For each of those skills add $5 to each one. So $75 per hour ought to be a real wage after all if they were to pay the dealer they would be spending $125 per hour.
The thing I see in the ad is that they want a person who probably doesn’t exist in this day and age. Seven years experience, full set of tools, be able to fix everything from any type of truck to excavators, wheel loaders and dozers. I’m thinking they are going to have to find a genie who can grant at least one wish. They might catch a fish from out of state but twenty minutes of a news cast here showing this cesspool would discourage any wrench of the caliber they are looking for.
It's a dog eat dog world. There very well be some small business owners paying a decent wage for the right guy. But my experience is and matches what John posted on rules for being a employee. Companies this day and age don't give a damn about their employees. It's about making money and if you are effecting their profits because you make to much. Then you are gone! Dosen't matter how good at your job you are. I don't fault any of them for that. I just fault the let's make money at all costs philosophy. The scorched earth approach. Some of you guys had the blessing of working in a time when companies cared for their employees. It's not like that anymore. And I tire of hearing you guys complain that there isn't any loyal or good employees. The employer's created this so called lack of loyalty and chip on the shoulder attitude. Like I said it's a dog eat dog world out there. I work for me and my family. I know what I bring to the table. You gotta show me what you are willing to give for my skills. If you don't have what I want I move on. If you can't give me what I need anymore then I am gone. It's not personal it's business. I am a damn good employee and I will make any company money. But don't think for one second that I owe you anything. You are paying for my services is all. And if I don't like your attitude or I don't see myself making more money then I am gone. I quit making this personal and started looking at it as a business venture. When I changed my attitude ( chip on my shoulder). I became a mutch better employee and I keep the attitude to myself. I am not loyal and won't ever be. It's all about what you can do for me. But that doesn't mean that we can't get along while we are making money together.
Cesspool!
I'm that guy. I just don't tell anyone.
And your better off for it.
It doesn't pay to be the man who can do it all. You are better off being self employed with that kind of skill set. And like I said on other threads. I have been riding the fence of being self employed or just employed. I just haven't found the balls to go for it.
The glaring question to that potential employer in my mind is why did the last mechanic decide to leave?
He didn't quit. He died from the work load because he had to do it all.
I got to laugh-out of everybody on here I have been employed at the same place for 18 years. Except for my time off with back surgery I have only missed one Saturday and Sunday in 18 years. I've been on call 24hrs a day for 18 years. I have never had a sick day off in 18 years. 24/7 all year long. I suppose if I didn't like it I would have left years ago but I have worked like that for the last 30 years. I decided I would have no children when I started because this life I have doesn't have room for family. I got 'a like what I do. I did take a vacation one Monday in 2010.
You are a special man What will your employer do when you finally retire?
interesting
That's his problem-he wanted to be a business owner Your right it is interesting-I enjoy discussions about employers and other peoples so called work ethics.
Funny side note... Our last laborer we hired was green as grass but a good kid that showed up on time everyday for over a month. He was tasked with cutting a 20"x20" hole in a round knockout manhole where the knockout is about 2" thick, then brick and mud the hole. He wrapped this up around lunch, took lunch break and never showed back up. Didn't answer his phone for the next work week. Yesterday received his unemployment claim from the State where he stated the reason WE let HIM GO was lack of work . We have a long backlog of work and need 2 laborers right now. This claim will be fun to dispute which we will.
Come on up to Okieland! .......just go around the weigh stations.
Would be interesting to hear how that works out for both of you! I'm sure it might have not been a "fun job" but unless someone was bitching at him for taking too long I'm sure it beats other jobs that one could be tasked with in your business!
This thread is a good read for me, it makes me appreciate who I am working for. I break most of these rules and they make it worth my while. It is a small outfit and I do it all for them. I run the shop truck, lowbed, dump truck, grader, and all the other equipment as needed and am pretty good at all of it. I never have to worry about having something to keep me busy and never have to worry about getting time off when I want it. They take care of me the best they can and I take care of them as best I can. Some days it seems like too much but the next day comes and I don't mind getting up early and starting over. I take Sunday off though, that is important to me. Thanks for giving me a reminder of the real world!
Kind of like the place I retired from back when I first started there in late 1960's. Not exactly a small outfit but still had the family type attitude from top management on down. They had quarries in three or four states in the northeast but when top management did their annual tour of the plants they made it a point of personally meeting just about every single person who worked there and knew many by name or who their father was, lots of two or three generation employees. If an employee needed a load of stone for driveway no problem take what you need as long as it was for your own use. Need to borrow a stake rack truck to get a load of hay for wife's horses, no problem. Heating oil tank low and need some the fuel oil tank is over there take enough to get you through till the delivery guy can get to your house. Burn fire wood? We're going to start stripping to the west of the pit next winter cut this area and we both win! Need a wood splitter? See if there is anything in the bone yard that you can make one out of. Then they were bought out by one large company after another and now if they think you grabbed a hand full of 1/4 nuts and bolts to put the license plate your boat trailer they would act like you stole a 988H and sold it on Ebay!
KShansen, That’s exactly what I am talking about. Some of you guys had the pleasure of working in a time when the company you worked for valued their employees. It’s not like that now and it’s a shame. I have had the pleasure of working for a company like that twice. One I left for greener pastures. I would still be working with the other if their health insurance was affordable. I payed out of pocket for the birth of my child and the fine for not carrying health insurance. All for less than what I would’ve paid in premiums and deductibles. Companies like that just don’t exist anymore. They care more about making shareholders happy than employees.
I will use my brothers approach to employees when was still a practicing physician. The women he hired to work in his clinic-90% worked there till he retired. #1 He automictically gave raises. #2 At the end of each year all got bonuses, not meager either. Plus for each year they stayed it was increased 10%. #3 Naturally full medical and reference to the best specialists in that area. What he received for taking care of the staff. A clinic that operated like a watch, staff was happy in the office, correct and on time billing, patients got the best of care, patients were happy they had a clinic like that. He wasted very little on retraining, the staff was always there.
And I left out the fact that when the shop part of the quarry was active just about every year 1/3 to 1/2 the mechanics went to factory schools for around a week at a time. Then at least once or twice a year the shop boss brought in a trainer from one of the local dealers or sometime the factory, like Mack Trucks, to give one or two day classes to everyone. And this was back in the day when things were nowhere as complicated with electronics like today! The last time I went to anything close to a class was about three years before I retired. It was billed as being a class on Cat ET. It was more of a half day sales pitch on Cat ET with only a few minutes actual hands on with one "instructor/salesman" for over 25 people some of them mechanics and some just bosses looking for time away from work. To be honest the majority of what I ever learned about ET was from stumbling around on my own with a major amount of help from Nige here on Heavy Equipment Forum!
Did I say anyone was bitching at him for taking too long?
No! I was just using that as about the only reason he would have for giving up and walking away. Some jobs in this line of work are just plain boring at times! The more I think of it if taken by themselves just about every step of a project could be a little boring. Be it putting studs in a wall, running wires or torqueing the head bolts on a V-16! I often recall when one guy at the shop wanted to work with Norm and myself rebuilding engines. Then when he was given the chance he got upset when he spent a couple days just washing parts. Not sure how he figured those parts were getting cleaned when it was just Norm and me doing the rebuild!
Never have I heard truer word spoken than Paul Council contribution to this thread , I spent years working for the boss man and at one point offshore they rung me up to ask how much longer the complex job was going to take (sole machinist ) as they want me to get off one helicopter and get on another helicopter straight back out to another rig to machine the well head ! asked about a small pay rise and this was immediately refused , this when I realised about people getting rich off their employees ( backs ) hard work , firm could not machine the skin off a rice pudding . Been self employed 20 years now , yes its been hard graft , yes we had sleepless nights , would we do it again YES
Are days and times I reminisce when I was a side job contractor, made loads of money, my own boss to a point, and the day I said enough was as the powers that be were deciding that ANY half Trained Burger Flipper could do what I had been doing for less than half my charge fee. Most of them ended up selling out as could not keep up the machines and could not afford the Shop rates or hauls to those shops. The mentality is still there by these people that they can get quality for a dime on a dollar expense ticket, still failing themselves.
Burger flippers tagged along with me to make up the numbers ( skilled machinist ) 2 skilled operators what a joke !!! Knew right there and then time to jump ship
I was very lucky,worked for a plumbing contractor that kept trying to cheat on my fringes,finally had enough quit went on the out of work list.It was the end of the season, so I was dispatched to a large mechanical contractor that needed another operator for a couple weeks figured that would be better than nothing, that turned out to be almost 30 years,they were under the building trades agreement,instead of heavy highway,a little more an hour and all overtime was double time.With my sewer and water experience they soon supplied me with a truck and took care of all their forman plumbers fitters etc.Made up for of the crappie contractors I previously worked for thank god.
Guys , remembering old times was called up to large gas refinery in Norfolk UK to machine a 42 inch gas pipe that ran at 2200 psi line pressure ! been up there for a few days when I received word third hand that the boss wanted to put the workshop dogsbody with me ( nice bloke but even he said that was way out his pay league ) by now i knew their game dip me out and replace with workshop handyman !! quickly phoned wifey and told her to unplug the phone from the wall socket the thing with UK phone outlets remove the phone socket and the phone still rings from the callers end but no no ring or phone our end ( don"t try and kid a kidder ) never took him boss was hissed still chuckling 30 years later LOL LOL LOL
Like near the end of the time we were still doing our own rebuilds in the quarry shop. They wanted me to more or less bid on an engine rebuild. I quoted what I felt it would cost this included rebuilt starter, alternator, air compressor along with turbo, fuel pump and injectors. As I recall the place they sent the engine the only components they replaced or exchanged were the fuel pump and injectors! Now if I had good records that showed some of those other components had been replaced a short time back I might have reused them. 90% of the time when we got an engine in the shop it was obvious from the build up of dirt that it had been ages since those had been replaced.
Only extra thing I have on my list is if it's going poorly now give it a a month or two to see if it's a hiccup and if not double down on the job hunt. Saved me a couple times.
The only thing an employer owes you is a paycheck for the hours you've worked. If you expect any more you are setting yourself up for disappointment. I've worked with a lot of people who say they've been there X years and think they are owed something. These are also some of the worst employees who really don't have anything desirable going for them to go somewhere else.
It should come with every new toolbox!
I like this. I have been lucky enough to have a great employer. This will be the start of my 24th season with them. There have been rough patches, although sometimes self inflicted. I might be a big baby, but I need to be told I'm doing a good job now and again. It's nice to hear sometimes.
That is a great post. I partially disagreed with several of John's rules but #5 I think is the most substantial. Every business runs different and certainly there are circumstances that would make that advice sound. However, loyalty is important in any relationship from personal to professional, but it is a two way street. I view it like this, both employee and employer work on a systems of debits and credits. Each party does things that create a credit with the other, an example would be the employer gives the employee time off he may not have earned yet to attend an important personal event. That credit that the employer earned by allowing the employee to take off becomes a debit when it is used by the employee when he agrees to work OT on a day that he had something planned. Simple examples, but hopefully it conveys the point. Much like your bank account, you can only pull debits when you have earned enough credits. When both employer and employee work together for the benefit each other, you can create a great working relationship. Lack of effective communication is usually the cause of bad blood. It is the responsibility of both to communicate when things are not going right. Also it is important to communicate a job well done (employer) and showing appreciation of keeping me on when it was slow (employee). As pointed out, that is important to almost everyone, regardless of whether they admit to that or not. Sometimes hard choices need to be made from an employer. What can appear as being disloyal, may in fact be a necessity. No different when an employee leaves for something better. It may look like a disloyal move by the employee to the employer but is just a natural move to improve your personal position. Communication and a proven track record of loyalty and looking out for the other party, helps to prevent these types of misunderstandings. If you find yourself working in an environment that is not loyal to you, you should look for something else. If your hiring employees that are not loyal to your operation, you should hire a replacement. Mutal loyalty is important, no relationship succeeds without it.
Have a guy like this. Posions all the younger employees and now they're seeing every management mistake as malicious. Don't get me wrong the management of this place probably couldn't handle a lemonade stand, but some of them are trying. Honestly I'm thinking that the new generation of people managing businesses their dad started aren't cut out for it and all they see is their share of the dividends, next year being in business be damned.
Are there rules for a employer as well?
Probably. But you'll never see them posted here, because if they were they'd be shredded. Most employees today either think they know better than the boss, or believe that they should be offered a chunk of the business to stay around long-term. As KSSS said, an employee/employer relationship is a two-way street. If an employee gets to make the "rules for being an employee" then an employer should get to make the "rules for being an employer". How about this. Instead of sitting around bitching and complaining about why each of us thinks the other side is wrong about something, let's have an honest discussion about real scenarios in the workplace that cause disagreement or resentment between the boss and the worker. Employees can go first. Maybe hearing opinions on these things from people who are in similar positions but who have zero personal connection might help each side understand things a little better.
I've been employee, boss and an owner. I put the original post together from the perspective of being on all sides. Where is your perspective from?
There really isn't anything to discuss in my opinion. It's business... Employer exploits labor to make money. Employee exploits his company to make money. If neither can get the other what they want you part ways. Quit or fired whichever side of the coin you are on It's the same thing. It only gets personal with me. Is when the employer expects loyalty, dedication, and sacrifice without reciprocating.
Worked for employers that were ruthless to employees, those that were complacent of employees, Union and Non where seems smaller is not always better nor is larger numbers or bean counter companies. Been self employed where cussing the boss was DAILY, cussed many bosses as required stupid decisions be followed argue less then shrieked when it was shown stupid as to just doing as told and not thinking but thinking for self not being allowed. All too many want it Their Way until that fails then want it done right until that costs too much, then look to cheapen the bill hiring base employees and sending the high payroll to the curb or offering next to nothing for incentives. Is a balancing game, employer incentives SOME considerable, payrolls, employee efforts with SOME freebies, accepting issues arguing for benefit of Both from Both Sides. Can be quite a headache at times.
I've owned {no employees}, employed and managed mainly. Which being in a management position puts you in the middle. I just asked the question to see what kind of replies would pop up first. There are unwritten rules-same as unwritten for employee.
I always told my kids that there are only two basic rules to remember about work: 1. Show up on time. 2. Do what you are told.
I'm lower middle management and I'd just love if more of my team appreciated how easy they've got it. Some do, but the work and environment is very nice. The workload is reasonable but there are folks that are quite lazy, if they show up at all.
As a boss or an employer in service businesses, I've found that you make lots of money from about 10% of your employees. You make some money from about 70% of the other employees and 20% cost you money. Some of those 20% are people being trained or are administrative personnel that you have to have. Usually there are 1 or 2% that are wasted. They are there because they are family, maybe required by regulation or even just someone's friend. You can't touch them. You try not to treat the 10% any better than others as that just messes with the heads of the 70%. Problem is you have to have some other way to reward them or they will leave, particularly now. I found management to be a different kind of challenge. People problems will drive you crazy a lot faster than technical problems.
Well said John!
I was looking at it from a old employer's view from years ago. His philosophy. Micro managing is probably one of the worst habits an employer can have for the simple fact he will over look and create problems sometimes more often than not. If you micro manage your probably going end up stifling any employees ideas missing out on good ideas to use plus employee sees a ego problem. His other thought was keeping a happy work environment. As a employer your wages may not be as high as others but employees have a tendency of staying put at a slightly less wage because they are comfortable with work place. A steady eddy business for employees in most cases is more important. He never showed anger or spoke to the help in a disrespectful way. Cliff's business ideas--He was a very good employer.
A general quote is - The boss pays the employee just enough so he won't quit. The employee gives just enough that he won't get fired.
That used to be the mantra of capitalism. It doesn't work when labor markets are understaffed. Apparently high talent labor are acting like NFL players now and getting what they ask for. Management has no way of knowing when the talent will just walk away.
You guys are hitting very close to home. I like my job pretty well, but I trade probably 30-40% more salary for a very nice work environment. A lot of us understand that but some do not.
Which can create stress, one has to ask themselves is it worth it? Stress is a killer. Plus in many cases the job goes home with them which causes stress on others in that household.
And here it is. The root of this entire discuss. Perspective. If bosses didn't abuse this right, and employees actually would get fired for not being productive enough, there wouldn't be anything to haggle over. But, according to every owner in the world, he's already paying more than he should be to the help, and every employee thinks they are overworked and underpaid. And, to answer your question, John, I have been on all sides of this as well. Grew up in a family business. For 14 years I had to find work to do in the winter to survive because my father believed that $10k a year from him was enough to keep me there in 2010. I was loyal to a fault to my employers, and was rewarded well for it. I saw and listened to firsthand the type of employees that seem to be the majority today. Gripe, gripe, gripe all day long about how so-and-so makes this much and how management doesn't care about the employees and all the owner cares about is getting his new Camaro and going to Arizona every winter and blah, blah, blah. Just shut up and do your job. That kind of attitude is a cancer for the good ones, BOTH SIDES. The boss gets tired of the crybabies, thinks all workers are the same, and the good workers get soured one of two ways:either they become a rotten employee as well, or they move on to a different job to get away from the bullsh!t. It's a vicious circle that has gotten bigger and bigger, so big that there is almost no escaping it. Now I am an owner, who pays employees, but still works with/for the man that made it possible for me to become a boss. We share employees, and sometimes I'm managing jobs in his operation, and sometimes he's helping me in mine. What it comes down to is respect. If the boss respects the employees enough, they will get paid enough, and treated excellent. If the employee respects the boss enough, they won't need these rules because they won't matter. But, like everything, respect HAS to be EARNED. Both sides.
That pretty much sums it up. The rest is just human nature and humans in general disappoint. Too bad dogs don't have opposable thumbs and could run equipment..
Lock your wife and your dog in the truck. Open it up and see which one still loves you, pretty much says it all.
I agree Shimmy. I look at my job several ways, maybe that's odd this day and age. My job is keeping the owner out of a liability situation, the driver and the public out of harms way first and foremost. The number one issue is safety. Without it the company could possibly be out of business in a heart beat. If I neglected to do what I was paid to do and it caused injury or someones life-I should be shot. I respect the owner for having the trust he has in me to get the job done. I'm happy with my pay, we laugh and joke in the shop. But the job is taken seriously. If I worked for you or anyone else I would handle it the same way.
This is the kind of employee that I am. I show up everyday and on time. I get the job done and done well. When I make mistakes I own them rather than make excuses for my mistakes. I treat company resources as they were my own and I treat their money the same way. But my number one rule is. I am number one my needs come first no matter what. If the job is causing unnecessary stress then I am gone. If I want more money or a better position and you can't or won't give it to me. Then I'm gone. My needs and my family come first. I am a good employee for the most part and I will do the job I am hired to do. But any company or owner that thinks I should be loyal to them and stick around because they treat me well. Is sadly mistaken. I owe you nothing but a job well done. Like I said before. This isn't personal it business and my needs come first. Just the same way any company or business owners run their business.
I will hold this for a while. Thanks for reading, bigwrench.
I’ve been both side of the fence and I’m not convinced through my own experience that I could work for or employ someone without some degree of loyalty. There’s no way I could treat an employee with the mindset of “it just business” say for example my workers wife gets sick, whatever scenario you can think of. I’ll just get rid of him like that old loader with the damaged trans cause it doesn’t make sense to fix it? It’s just not that simple. I only have experience in family run businesses, I can see your point perhaps if I was working for a corporate company.
When get to loyalty there has to be some, a Owner takes that chance you will be a good worker, get jobs done adequately and derive a profit from your labor to which improvement on all, his, your, customer conditions where as money expands can provide subsequent raises. A employee doing the minimum, to meet their own needs and provide a good service is not adding value but riding a fence. On the other side a owner that does not recognize where rewards better value in their employee is as selfish or worse. Worked as employee, worked as employer, worked as Union and Non where the subtlety’s do not change just the conditions to which benefit can be applied or penalty pushed. A employee with no loyalty is of little value, sure they produce yet can be gone as fast as arrived, zero tangible asset. A employee that shows up on time and ready to work every day without fail is only a benefit should quality exist within that work. A employer that expects max load with minimal payroll is looking for a reason to quit the business knowingly or not. And a employer that fails to understand a employee that does good work promptly, efficiently with no concern to reward has no business being in business.
In the wake of my sister's illness and passing, I can say fairly that my employer has indeed been family for me. I took any and all time that I wanted or needed, and still got the work done for them too. When I did not need to be there, there was no expectation of me coming in to take care of little punchlist crap around the office. I set my priorities and they include taking care of what is needed and not a thing more, when that serves my needs. There is plenty of deferred wrenching and cleaning up around there and I will get back to it now. I need the hours!
Great employers are few and far between, glad to know there still are.
The original post in this thread was literally exactly what I needed to read right now.