I have had this 78A direct drive parts machine (machine on the left) for a while now (bought it with a rod bearing gone), originally planning to just take the winch & canopy off & scrap it, putting the winch & canopy on another D4D that I have (not in the picture) that is in good running order (also a 78Axxxx), but since have decided to see if I could get the parts machine running as well. Then I ran across this 83J xxxx machine (the one being offloaded with the crane) on the scrap pile at a local salvage yard, of which the motor runs, motor being ser # 78P 4984, a 3304. The machine was up on the pile at the salvage yard & the guy running the crane there with the lobster claw on it had latched onto her by the hyd tank & dashboard to off load her before I found her, so that part is totally destroyed! We have a fabrication business, so are going to trade them for equal weight in scrap, that we generate as part of our process, so that worked out ok. I would like to salvage the tilt blade, engine, some undercarriage parts & then scrap the rest at some point later. I wonder if there will be much difficultly in adapting the 3304 to fit where the D330 is in the 78Axxxx parts machine? The 83J is power shift & the 78A is all mechanical, so the transmission cooler on the side of the 3304 will need to be capped off & I don't know what else will be different. We took batteries, a can of fuel & got the 83Jxxxx running while still on the scrap pile a week ago, so know the engine runs & just moved it home today. Anyone know if the mounts on the 3304 will fit up close to swap out D330 for it? We are hoping to make one operational machine out of 2. Metalman
good find there Metalman,saved another oldie
master clutch will be your problem. Bell housings are very different along with crankshaft seal department. A 83J could be changed to a 82J. Both have the 3304. But 3304 and D330A in the 78A are totally different. imho would be better to change hyd tank and dash from the wrecked 78A and make the 83J a runner. Track gear is same for both; but final drives and bevel gear are very different between the 2
Ouch. Sounds like the similarities end after the D4 part.:Banghead
As Marv says, that's a no go. You can add this to the story. Check the bottom of page "Caution" warning. Doesn't exactly give a lot of detail on why not though. http://www.wheelerxparts.com/ts/3304 3306 long blocks.pdf
Ok, thanks for the information. I had no idea that the 3304 would not "bolt up" to the 78A machine. We may look into the possibility of getting the 83J unit going by pilfering parts from the 78A parts machine. We can fire her up again & see if the torque converter & PS transmission are operational on it. Finals have clean oil in them.
If the drive train in the 83J is a no go, is anyone aware of parts availability for the 78Axxxx D330 engine, or is that idea sort of like beating a dead horse? The D330 still runs but really knocks & we think it is a rod bearing gone. If the 78Axxxx could be resurrected again, I would keep the blade & some undercarriage parts off of 83J machine & scrap the rest again if the back end is not good in it.
parts should still be redialy available for both series of D4Ds. both are good machines and gear drive and powershift both have there place for work. 1st gear sometimes fails in powershift trans due to the rotating clutch seals wearing. but as long as no bearing have failed, trans and torque converter in a D4D is very rebuildable. Re final drives in D4Ds, gears and deadshafts are different between 78a and 83J series, but can be updated you just have to use all 4 gears as they have different numbers of teeth.
I worked on a 58J D4D, one that was made in France, a couple months ago. It was a grey market machine so we had to use a different prefix to get parts for it, but parts are indeed available It was a very nice running machine, pretty well taken care of. Glad you saved it from the smelter
Here is the D4D evolution....
Good on you for saving those old machines! If we ever meet, the beer is on me.
Thanks, will keep you posted as to how we make out with the project moving forward.
that's a real good list OM. most of what I know is in my head from fixing and owning D4s. plus did work for dealer for 10 years and was in the D4D/E era. Only thing I would add, was when they bumped hp up on 82Js from 65 to 75 they upped full load rpm from 1680 to 1900 . But to keep ground speed the same, they changed bevel gear and pinion, to slightly lower gearing. This gives the later D4Ds a lot more drawbar pull as well as the extra hp. We got the Japanese 65J version here in New Zealand; and most were fitted with the optional oil steering clutchs and brakes. I don,t think this was a option on usa built 82J machines. Anyhow a wet rear end 65J D4D with the 75hp was a really good machine; perfect for a lot of the agricultural work that was done here. A good simple reliable machine.
All this roading was done with my old 78A D4D
Don't know how you could remember all that stuff!!! Yes, 82J was dry here.
Nice, here is my other 78A that is operational, which is in good shape for it's age.
she does look good :notworthy looks to have 18'' shoes on her, make her better in softer going. keep your eyes out for a Hyster D4E winch. they can be a very handy addition to have ! although if you,ve got a 2nd dozer as a runner it will tow you out if you get stuck. I had completely rebuilt mine, except for engine which was good. Reason I know abit about them Dit one major mod to gearbox, I changed 1+2 gears to low speed gears, made it much better for bulldozing in abit harder going. Just wish now I had changed 3 4 5 at the same time ! Dunno why they had such a long top gear, only time id ever use it would be to escape from a swarm of bees
Actually I did get a winch with the parts machine (left hand side to one being lifted by the crane) shown earlier in this post, the winch being taken off by the previous owner. I picked the parts machine up earlier this year. I had initially planned to put the winch on my good one, but now likely plan to leave the good one alone & put it on which ever of the other two machine we decide to go to work on. How do you go about getting gears on a lower ratio? Are they from Cat or another source? A couple more pics, one of the winch I got with the parts machine & the other with my little helper . ATTACH]128708[/ATTACH]
great pic ; gotta have them little helpers; they even get better as they get older. All went well with my 2 helpers until they got to 18 and discovered girls; then it was 'got better things to do old man' is actually 4 different ratio boxes available for D4s. standard speed. close ratio for ag work. Low speed, which uses a lower 1+2 then the top 3 gears from the ag box. And the LGP D4s had separate box of there own again, Low speed 1+2 and 3 4 5 being totally different again. All cat parts. Box is essentially the same on all 4, just internal gear changes. I got my gears 2nd hand from a wrecker in Australia. 7U and D4D. my retirement toys for machinery shows; hoping I make it to retirement !!
Nice pic's there too. How far back did the 7U date? My first experience running dozers was back in the mid 60's at around 12 yrs old, on a 1955 HD6 tractor of my dad's c/w a 10'-6" angle blade if memory serves correctly, direct drive & no shuttle shifter like the Cat's. I think 3 or 4 speeds forward & 2 reverse. Haven't sit on the seat of one of those for about 40+ years!
Metalman , its easy for me to say this , but I wonder if you kept you eyes open if you could find another D4 comparable from the salvage , and make 1 good machine. The one you saved looks decent.
Two points: Which machine would be better to resurrect, the direct or the power shift? Second, is the 83 so much different that the tank and dash from the 78 won't bolt on? I'm assuming that we are all talking about this because it seems like most prefer the direct drive.
The dash on the 83J is taller by about 3" I believe (just by looking at them) & the hyd tank looks to be the same. Now that I know the 83J engine will not bolt up, we plan to fire the salvage machine up & see if it moves & if the steering clutches/brakes work & make our decision from there. Originally we were only looking at the engine so didn't pay much attention to the drives.
I wonder what my wife will say about that idea?
This works to your advantage , never ever under any circumstances keep them in the same building. I have several 1911 Colt pistols , old lady thinks I have 2. I can buy one , roll in with it tell her I went out shooting put it up in a safe manner , no harm no foul. A man has to use his resources these days. Plus it may be a tax advantage for you. I think I've talked myself into buying something else. Its a win win situation. Build up your net worth, the list is endless of advantages. This seems dishonest sort of , I have a list with serial numbers so if I kill over they can find it and values etc.
wifes; once upon a time I had one of those, cut a long story short; it cost me 20 years of working and saving. Bottom line is if the law says they can take 50% of what you own, tread carefully, I didn't. But I still own some toys, and some other working ones as well, just won,t be any newer ones for me !! 7U is a 51 model, first of the rear tank models 7u13601. first dozer I drove was a HD6E too, 4F 2R, good little machine; in there day better than a D4 too. Have got a HD6ep, powershift model too, needs a converter reseal, but will get there one day, only fire it up now and again to splash some oil around ! yeah boys and toys :drinkup
Not a great picture, but one of my dad's AC HD6 on the flat bed truck from the early 60's.
Trying again for better pic quality. Note this AC HD6 had the flat front grill, whereas yours had the "bump out" likely for the hyd pump? What year was yours in the pic.? I sort of remember this one being an HD6G.....could I be correct about that model #? My dad supported the family with just this one machine only, for perhaps 6 years before adding to the fleet. Canadian winters could be cold, so imagine doing all maintenance work in the front yard with no garage to work in! We still have the same phone # (shown on the truck door), some 50+ years later for our business! Metalman
Mine is 1961; very first of the EP series, and the wet backend HD6s. Yours would have been a pre 1960 HD6B, as has 4 roller track frame and the side mounted hyd tank and valve were all on the 'Buda' powered HD6s. Front mounted hyd valves came out with the direct injection 6000 motor in 1960. HD6 was the most common small machine in my area when I was a kid. NZ was 2nd after the USA for the amount of HD6s sold. A lot of the very last batch even came here. This is my mates and is only 70 numbers from the very last made; and know of some later than this one too.
I assume the "P" in "EP" was for power shift.......what did the "E" stand for? So the "bump out" on the front was for the control valves then? Was the EP series a 5-roller track frame?
E stands for extended roller frame; ie 5 rollers. And the P is powershift. Was also a HD6E the geardrive version with wet backend and 5 roller frame. And the HD6B which was standard with 4 rollers, but the 5 roller frame was a option, as was a oil master clutch. These had dry steering clutches and brakes. And also the HD6G the track loader version. Hyd tank and valve was mounted in the front, in the bump