I was installing some 6" sdr35 sewer pipe the green stuff and found that I needed to use 45 degree piece. The pipe uses a rubber gasket that fits the pipe together. On streight pipe I use a bar and block of wood or tap block with small sledge goes together hard sometimes use pipe lube. The 45's are PIA. Any suggetions on how to hold fitting in place to be able to push pipe into it. I took gasket out and poured concrete around joint and called it a day. John
Sometimes?? I've put a lot of SDR35 together in my day, (Gawd, am I staring to sound old... ), and I've never had much luck without using lube. Even when it's well lubed it can be a pain unless the two pieces are lined up just right. Also, you have to take care because you can actually roll the gasket out of the groove sometimes, or cut it, and if you're getting the line pressure tested, now you've really made trouble for yourself. As far as making a joint with a piece of pipe into a bend, there's no foolproof easy way to do that either. The same rules apply--be sure the two pieces are lined up, and lube the rubber well. You are putting a bevel on any cut ends you're trying to use, aren't you? I always use a grinder, or the side of the blade of an abrasive cutoff saw. One of the plumbers I work with just uses his handsaw and saws the edge all the way around. Sometimes it's easier to make the joint with the next section of pipe up on top of the ground, then push that assembly onto, or into the pipe you already have in the ground. You can also push the two pieces together at whatever angle is easiest for you to work at, and then turn the fitting to where you really need it to point. The bar and block of wood is the right way to go for straight lengths, but those bends you pretty much have to get down in the dirt and wrestle with by hand. At least in my experience...
you don't have to air test your line? or have it inspected? like digger said, put a good bevel on the male end, and use a good lube
Like said, ALWAYS use lots of lube (is this an equipment site or a sex forum?), make sure you line your pipe up properly or you will wrestle with it all day. And when trying to put a length of pipe onto a fitting like a 45 or a T, either have someone stand on it or stick a bar or shovel behind the fitting so it doesnt move, or you can drive a stake behind it. Then you can go tap it in with your sledge.
Thanks for the answers, I always use lots of lube, bevel, and wrestle. I kept thinking that there must be an easier way! The pipe not so bad, the 45 and 90 real bad. Put stake in ground, shovel, pry bar etc behind fittings but fitting has no flat side like on a 45. This last one was just storm water drain so no preasure testing. I have put in about 500' over the last few years so not a real lot but was hoping I was missing something. The 4" was ok but 6" and 8" and 12" was real hard to do. Why wouldn't the arc spec n12 (I think its called, black poly) for storm water that goes together much better?
If you are doing a lot of this work, there are tools made to help ease this job. It's hard to describe them, but they are rods with griping slings attached. Your SDR dealer should be able to get them for you.
Steve is this a tool that will hold fitting in place so pipe can be pushed into it?Will itt hold 45's and 90's Thanks
I no longer buy the gasketted pipe, just the bell ends and glue them, that way there's no wrestling.
do they make sdr35 with bell end's? The pipe is spec for the most part as sdr35 so if thats the case I would use bell end pipe and glue for sure! Is this pipe green in color so it looks the same to architec before back fill?
I never really had much time installing the SDR pipe but I have moved and unloaded quite abit of it off of trucks. That stuff is slippery as greased lightening I have had full lifts of 12" diameter water pipe slide off the forks of the forklift. One place we were unloading the pipe had another guy running the forklift with a bunch of 10" water main it was loose on top of the load of other pipe. Before I could tell the guy running the forklift this pipe is slippery a length of pipe slid off the top of the load and nearly missed a parked car. He said boy that stuff is slippery thank god it didn't hit the car. The pipe we get is manufactured and sold by Royal pipe the blue is for water and the green is for sewer. The guys that install water mains call the blue pressure pipe "Blue Brute". The gasket lube is really expensive I forget what the pipe layers told me what it was worth but I was surprised.
do they make sdr35 with bell end's? The pipe is spec for the most part as sdr35 so if thats the case I would use bell end pipe and glue for sure! Is this pipe green in color so it looks the same to architec before back fill? John--Sdr35 only comes bell end gasketed.As stated before,proper alignment is everything,along with SMOOTH bevels as close to factory ones as possible,especially when using fittings.Good CLEAN duck butter is a must,dirt around the gasket is a big no-no--bring plenty of clean rags down in the trench.DO NOT use any kind of petroleum product--only use pipe joint lube{we NYers call it duck butter}.Only barring,preferably with wood using a constant push with a slight wiggle of the bar if necessary.Do NOT use hammer blows--completely wrong--if I see plumbers doing this, right away I know they're amateurs.I love this pipe,I think it's the cat's ass--just pay attention to detail and I guarantee you there will be no problems:thumbsup
sdr35 can come gasketed OR solvent weld. i put the stuff in everyday
I think we need to clarify the vocabulary we're using here. In my experience... Pipe has bells, and spigots (pronounced "spickets", at least where I'm from). The spigots are the "male" ends, and the bells are the "female" ends. The joints made between these two ends are, as Dayexco says, either gasketed, or solvent weld, (that means "glued"). Any two lengths of pipe are joined by inserting the spigot into the bell. Bends, or "elbows" come in various angles, i.e. 22 1/2, 45, or 90 degrees. They also come in either bell by bell, (abreviated "BxB"), or "street". A "street 45" will have a bell at one end, and a spigot at the other. If you happen to need to make a bend right at the end of a full length pipe, you can use a street 45, but if you need to cut that full length of pipe to something shorter, you'll need a BxB fitting--because you've cut the bell end off of your pipe. (An exception would be the "Schedule 40" pipe used by plumbers, (either in ABS or PVC plastic), in which the pipe itself has no bells. In that case, all the fittings are BxB, and any two full lengths of pipe are joined with a "coupling", which by definition is BxB.) If anyone has anything to add, or correct, feel free. SDR 35 does come in either gasketed or solvent weld. (I googled it to find an example. I don't know anything about this manufacturer other than they were near the top of the returns from Google, and they have a pretty brochure, that shows their products: http://www.plastictrends.com/pdf/PTI_Brochure_080503.pdf ) The installation advice Tuney gives is right on target. (Duck butter? Must be a NY thing. ) The reason never to use petroleum products is that over time, they'll attack the gasket rubber, and it will fail, allowing a leak. I've seen plumbers using diswashing liquid. I don't know whether that's kosher or not. Also, the color isn't critical. I've used SDR 35 sewer pipe in either green or white, and it all goes together the same. The Blue Brute (that's a brand name), LT-9000 refers to is PVC plastic, but much heavier and thicker, because it's desigened to contain the pressure in water main use, whereas the SDR 35 is not.
I knew a guy that called pipe lube bear ****, the name never took with me but it was interesting the first few times he asked me for it i didnt know what the hell he was asking for.
Dayexco--I too use the pipe extensively and around my part of the world,glued type SDR is not here,I've never seen or heard about it.I know I woud'nt use it since the beauty of gasketed joints allows some slight cocking on a run--glued joints would leak here.If you say it exists though,I believe you--us NYers probably have some products you don't have.I also would'nt want to use glue when it gets real cold out. Regards
Back to my main pain in the a**. When putting a 45 or 90 in 6" or larger pipe on a piece of pipe in the trench ,how do you get enough pressure on the fitting that has no flat side to pry on to go on pipe? Streight pipe no problem glue or not but the 45 in 6" pipe was close to impossible.
sounds like you just need to eat your wheaties and give 'er hell. slipping a fitting onto the pipe has always been about the easiest thing to do. I usually straddle the pipe and hold it between my legs, facing the joint, and i just pull the fitting on, might need to tug it a little bit. its putting that next length of pipe onto that fitting that can be a pain sometimes. Like i said before if that is a problem, i just drive a steel stake behind the fitting to keep it from moving while i push the next length on. Then i usually take out the stake and throw some bedding sand over the fitting to keep it in place.If you have a nice square cut, a good bevel, and a good amount of lube on the bell and spigot end, it should slip right on.
And like I said, sometimes you can put it together at an angle that's easier to work on, and then twist it into exactly the place you want it. I can't explain it, but some of them go together with no problem at all, and others, (same size, same manufaturer, same everything), are just about impossible to push in. Also, if you have one that's particularly hard to get together, it's a good idea to reach in with your hand, or use a flashlight to look, and check that you haven't displaced the gasket--you'll see or feel it sticking out between the pipe end and the bell. I won't admit to it, but somebody I know, has been known to tear the gasket out and just slop a lot of glue in there and make a glued joint out of what was originally supposed to be a gasketed one. Although I would NEVER recommend that if your pipe has the pass a pressure test--I can't guarantee that kind of joint wouldn't leak. As long as we're on the subject, and in case somebody, someday reads this thread as a tutorial on how to install SDR 35 pipe--when you have to get your pipe pressure tested, it's important to put something (a concrete block, the lumber you're staking the end of the lateral with, etc. ) snug against the plugged or capped ends of any laterals, cleanouts, etc. If you don't, there can be enough pressure from the test to pop one those plugs out, and you'll never pass the test. Finding those leaks can be a real headache.
Thanks guys, what Digger said is what I'm talking about the next pipe to go into the fitting was the pain. Could not get the fitting to stay rigid enough to push pipe into it when it was in the trench already. I am old and week and ugly but maybe wheaties is the answer! and beer.
Sometimes it's just simply a two man job--as soon as you start to push, the fitting moves and it's no longer lined up right. I can't offer any advice on the old and weak problem, but I find if I wear a bag over my head I no longer scare my helpers away. That might work for you too... :wink2
The schdl 35 bell end comes in 10' lengths around here, rather than the 14' ? gasketted. The gaskets never seem to go together well, no mater how you lube it. Also, if your working alone, as I do, it's a real pita. Ask your supplier, I'm sure they can get it and to be honest I'd rather have a glued connection than a gasket connection. With the right glue there's no chance of failure versus a bad gasket or using the wrong lube and having the gasket deteriorate.
I put in about 150' of 8" and 150' of 6" today, by myself, with a couple of side services, a cleanout, and a 2 catch basins, and i didnt have any problems getting the pipe together. We use PW eagle, who is your pipe manufacturer?
I have had to use a 2 cumalongs(sp?) on sdr35 elbows before. Once we had no other choice but to glue 12" right by a man hole with the inspectors ok. I was inside the man hole for a few minutes and they had to just about drag me out from the fumes it was about an hour before I was conferrable getting back on my machine.
Like Tyler said if you do everything right-no problem. Dirt on the gasket if you're not careful and you can expect a long day and a shorter night because you won't have any strength left for your woman.Take the extra time to make a nice smooth bevel,line her up,and apply bar pressure and it will most definitely go together.Deflection of just a few degrees can be the culprit so it's critical everything is perfectly in alignment.:thumbsup
i MUCH prefer a gasketed joint, it allows me some flex so we can make minor alignment changes if necessary, and allows for some expansion/contraction in your soil. if you're subject to air testing the lines, your failure rate with larger diameter pipe, 6" and above goes up considerabley with a solvent weld joint, with a gasket joint you're not subjecting yourself or employees to methyl ethyl ketone fumes, and it's far cheaper per joint labor and material wise to use over solvent weld.
Only pipe we glue is for perimeter drains and downspout drains around residential homes. everything else is gasket. with the glue, at least that i have used (IPS weld-on products), if your pipe is wet or dirty you are just wasting your time with the glue, might as well trow it out and save yourself a head ache from the fumes. That doesnt seem like something i would ever want to be using if i had to test the line, because when you are down in a wet, rainy, muddy trench, its kinda hard to get your pipe clean and dry.
speaking of glueing pipes...i've found there are many contractors who don't know how to properly do it. i subcontracted a bunch of rural water line here about 26 yrs. ago. part of the specs to the job was that the pipe manufacturer would provide a "solvent weld school" before construction started. bear in mind, i was a lot younger, and knew everything. the biggest misconception with solvent welding is that people think that your glue is the most important part of the process...in reality, your primer or MEK "methyl ethyl ketone" is the most important part. you're not glueing the pipe, you're welding/fusing it together, after your primer application if done right, you should be able to take your fingernail and scrape some pvc off the pipe. the glue has MEK in it also, but it has fillers that take care of any mismatched sized pipe, or any voids that maybe in between the male/female fitting. the way the certainteed factory rep told us, that if you had ideal factory conditions, your pipe all being sized exactly, no wind, dust, dirt....in reality you wouldn't need the glue, just the primer.
Sdr 35 like everyone says lots of pipe lube and make sure both ends are clean before you start also have several water companies that I work for one tried the glue joints and a lot of problems the least bit of movement and the joint cracks also around here everyone is saying you must use green pipe for sewer when you use white pipe and try and camera it all you will see is a white out like in a snow storm:yup
tuney, by definition of the ASCE, here is the nomeclature for PVC sewer pipe SDR= standard diameter ratio DR= diameter ratio neither one of them has anything to do with whether it's a gasketed or solvent weld joint. i know that when i buy an SDR 35 pipe, that i can buy either gasketed or SW fittings for SDR 35 pipe. your supplier might not make available gasketed fittings to you for this application, i don't know. you may want to ask him why he doesn't give you the option. we do a LOT of development work, and i know from hundreds of sewer stubs that we're expected to air test...that gasketed fittings are by far our best install. they will allow some flex with soil movement.
So we're picking this up from June 12?OK,fine I guess--little strange but OK.When did I ever disagree with gasketed joints?Like I said,that's all we use around here--have never seen glued joint SDR.I also said I believe that I love working with it,so why the lecture?
I bevel the edge of the pipe, soap up the pipe and gasket, straddle the pipe and twist and pull on the fittings. The hardest thing that I have found to do is sticking plugs in manholes. I soap them up and use a pry bar to press on the plug, but if you don't get on it right, it will tilt and you will slip. Sometimes, I will put the excavator bucket down, sit down on the ground with my back against the bucket and use my feet to press in the plugs.
John--Sdr35 only comes bell end gasketed.As stated before,proper alignment is everything,along with SMOOTH bevels as close to factory ones as possible,especially when using fittings.Good CLEAN duck butter is a must,dirt around the gasket is a big no-no--bring plenty of clean rags down in the trench.DO NOT use any kind of petroleum product--only use pipe joint lube{we NYers call it duck butter}.Only barring,preferably with wood using a constant push with a slight wiggle of the bar if necessary.Do NOT use hammer blows--completely wrong--if I see plumbers doing this, right away I know they're amateurs.I love this pipe,I think it's the cat's ass--just pay attention to detail and I guarantee you there will be no problems:thumbsup[/QUOTE] no lecture, unless you really think there's a reason for one. you stated that sdr35 came in gasketed only, and i responded saying that wasn't necessarily the case
I started this thread last summer, but now that it is back up I have something to add. SDR35 does come glue or gasket because I took a delivery today from RAMSCO that the pipe was glue joint because I asked for it that way. Installing septic laterials so went with glue fittings for the first time to see how I would like working with it. In the past have used gasketed so I thought why not mix it up a little, only live once! :bouncegri Also I want the pipe to leak for this job:yup :bouncegri
I would just add that there is sch40 with bell ends. I use it regularly in 20' lengths. Works great. doug
LOL. I just fixed the quote part of your post, Doug. I typed the following paragraph, thinking I was correcting you, when in fact, I was correcting me! To add to what I said earlier... I've used "street" or "service" 45s in schedule 40. They make them, and I imagine their most common uses are as a second 45 in a 90 degree bend of pipe. (For those who don't know, laying a 90 on its side is a no-no. You're required to use two 45s) You'd also use a street 45 into the branch of a Y, to get a lateral turned at a right angle to your main run of pipe. Anywhere else, you'd need to use a coupling along with your bend, and that would, of course, be counterproductive. I haven't seen schedule 40 plumbing pipe with bell ends. Now, electrical or telephone conduit pipe--that would be a different story.
no lecture, unless you really think there's a reason for one. you stated that sdr35 came in gasketed only, and i responded saying that wasn't necessarily the case[/QUOTE]
So this is from 6/12 above,my quote--why did you feel the need to tell me again about SDR coming with glued joints 5 months later?I already said I believed you--we just don't have it around here.
TUney, you found a skull?
I thiunk at this point it's been made clear that no one is lecturing anyone, perhaps it's time to move on.
Sometimes I will put a short piece (with the factory bevel) in the elbow. I have found it is easier to add the full joint to the short piece than it is to run a full joint into the elbow.
Digger,I had an inspector once in one town that I worked in that would not let me use a 90 in a footing drain with perforated pipe!!!I had to replace them all with two 45's before he would pass it!!He sure knew his stuff....LOL Ron G
Now that's just excessive! My understanding is that you're not allowed to use 90s on their sides because of the possibility that some debris could get stuck making that sharp bend in the flow. Theoretically, a footer drain shouldn't have any debris in it.
What a dumba$$
While we are are on this subject, do you use a "t" for clean outs or do you use a "Y" of some sort so the "y" is pointed in the direction of the pipe that you would need to clean if it gets clogged. The "Y" I have is not going to give me a 90 degree angle for my stand up pipe. With the "t", does the snake have a hard time finding the correct direction when inserted into the clean out. Installing 4" sdr35 pipe from dosing tank to two "d" doxes so a "t" is used to conect the two so the plans speck a clean out infront of "t". I hope this all makes sense.
We use tee's because using a wye and a 45 can break under the weight of backfill. If you use a wye and a 45, make sure that you use extra bedding around the cleanout.
Is the "t" going to pass inspection?
Use a "Sanitary Tee". The branch is curved, rather than just at a 90 degree angle. Here's one result from Google: http://www.hometips.com/articles/homenclature/sanitary_tee.html For a cleanout, picture it laying on its back, rather than vertical. In the last few years, around here anyway, the plumbing code has begun to require a "Site Tee", where the plumber's work connects to the municipal system. The purpose is to allow an inspection of what's running through the pipe. They use a sanitary tee for that one.
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Errrrrr I won't touch that one with a 10 foot stick :bouncegri :nono
Digger, I new you would know! Sanitary T :thumbsup Glad I didn't back fill yet. To bad the regular T is glued on, no big deal nothing that a demo saw won't fix. It just didn't look rite to me and thats what Ramsco sent me so I will have to stop and get the correct one. Thank you.
Yeah,us new yorkers call em TY's.Another use for a reg T is for a test ball,as well as a look-see inspection tool.
Maybe, but it'd be bad policy to depend on that happening every time. :wink2
Yeah,the summer of 2000,I found the skull of the Hyde Park mastodon.I'ts the youngest complete mastodon in the world.Discovery did a movie on it called"Mastodon in your Backyard"--I'm in it on a few shots,but no audio even though they told me they were going to edit my interview from 20 minutes down to 5.Anyway,that skull was huge--funny thing is when I found it,I got the director of PRI to check it out and in a nano second he told me good news and bad news Wayne.T he bad news is it's missing 1 molar,the good news is you did'nt break it,the tooth came out 12,000 years ago.
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Ditto to me last year on a septic system with this hot female inspector from the BOH.Took the 90 out and put 2 45's together and she was very happy.I was going to explain her stupid action but with that blond hair.......
Speaking of woman inspectors. I had one looking through a pop level from the wrong end , telling me she couldnt see anything. Hahahaha laughed my ass off. Then another time she was inspecting a septic field with a pop level . The benchmark was about 50' away. She told me the pipe was a 1/4" to high. I said i would fix it , but when she left we laughed our butts off. I should have asked her if she wanted a job. If she can see somethings a 1/4" off using a pop level than she must be pretty talented.
Tuney- thats cool. 15minutes of fame. I remember hearing about that. I will research it alittle bit. doug
*** Im pretty sure im doing everything right.. She even came with a manual. She sure has cost me alot of money latly!! If you go to any root of evil youll find a woman :bouncegri Im waiting for the right moment to tell her no more fancy dinners forawhile. my account is heating up.... atleast marriage has not been brought up :nono
This is a new one on me, but I saw it about a month ago. Install a cleanout using a Y on its side, letting the fluid flow straight on through. Put a street 90 in, & turn it straight up, this way the eel or a camera can enter the pipe & head in the direction of flow. I have seen the bottom of tees busted before from eels going through them.
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*** But this is getting off topic and last time I checked this was an equipment forum not a sex forum :bouncegri maybe their should be a new thread started just for it? nah that would be awkward amoung this group... :nono
Sorry about having to do that editing, guys. It was a judgement call on my part, but I think we went a little bit below the standards we've tried to achieve.