how many guys here use a skid to install stone in trench type septic systems? we have been doing it for about 3 years now in easy digging we can install 370 feet of line in 4 hours with two men and a lazer. when i put the rock in the ditcj i take the bucket and make a trench in the rock for the pipe then put the pipe in and put a little more rock on top and cover with paper. we can do two a day now and still be able to walk to the truck when we are done. if you have never done it this way it is worth a try you will never go back to having a guy shovel that rock all day long agian.
I would never even attempt what you're doing.No one is that good that you can grade stone 1/16 to 1/32'' to the foot without hand work.Much easier having a good grade man spotting you for minimum shovel/raking.And 270' in 4 hours?I doubt that very much--not for a quality job with a BOH inspector checking it later.
how do you grade 2 inch rock to 1/32??? and why when you are puting black flex pipe in the ditch which will walk a bit even of you are hand covering? i think you are talking about sewer lines used in city sewer. i am talking about drain field beds. we dig trenches 2-3 feet deep level +/- 1" and then fill with 2 inch graded rock put in a black flex pipe cover with 2 inches. and paper over this. this is the state required installtion method. this is to there specs. every system we do gets inspected from the state health dept. they set up there own lazer and measure every thing out. the 370' is easy in 4 hours if it is a fairly level site and don't have to make to many cross overs
We dig all of our ditches with a backhoe, then we put all the pipe in the ditches and hook them all up. We use sdr 35 4" perferated pipe. We have to have six inches of rock under the pipe and one inch on top, total of a foot of gravel. We cut six inch pieces of 4" pipe and put it under the laderal lines. Then we check the pipe first before putting the gravel in to make sure it is level. Then dump the gravel from the side with the skid steer. The guy in the ditch keeps the pipe on top of the six inch pieces of pipe and while getting anoather bucket of gravel he does very little leveling on the rock. Then we check the pipe with the laser and if it is low we just pull it up a little with the shovel. This seams to work good for us.
No,I'm most definitely not talking sewer service here.Leach fields,and here in NY we use 3/4--1'' stone 6'' under,4'' with the pipe,and 2'' over graded like I said 1/16--1/32'' to the foot using rigid PVC white light weight sewer and drain pipe.I can not believe your state allows that flex garbage--I don't even use that crap for gutter leader extension purposes.After 33 years of installs,the hand method I mentioned is what I go by--have seen all the gimicky pipe support tricks---NONE of them truly support the entire barrell of the pipe securely.You need the stone to support the pipe for a quality install--PERIOD.
Wow! 370 feet of drainfield pipe in 4 hours with two guys is moving right along alright... I've never even come close to doing that, but I'm not saying it can't be done - people that work well together, know what they're doing, and have a lot of practice can accomplish a lot. I would like to comment on the fine grading of the pipe, though; I have put in a lot of drainfields using 2" rock and 4" perforated pvc pipe to Minnesota specs...(we needed 12" of rock under the pipe & 2" on top, 18" total). I spent a lot of time and hand work getting the pipe level so it would pass inspection, but, in my opinion, it was MUCH more important to get the bottom of the trench graded to specs than it was to worry about perforated pipe being level... think about it; if you put your pipe in the trench with the holes down, like you're supposed to, and dump a bucket of water in one end, how much water is going to make it all the way to the other end of the pipe run? Well, since an inspector and I actually did that test one day, we found that almost none of the water made it even ten feet - it ran out the holes and went straight to the bottom of the trench/rock just like you would expect... the bottom of the trench actually determines where the water ends up. We decided that the main reason for the pipe, other than being a cash-cow for the pipe manufacturer, was mainly a measuring device to keep track of how many feet of trench was installed. But, even though we were both convinced that the pipe had very little to do with the function of the drainfield, he told me I had better keep putting in the pipe, and to make sure it was level like it was supposed to be, so we could both stay out of trouble.:Banghead srs/MN
well our nspector told us it was more of a vent to let the gasses go back up to the tank and to the vents trough the house so that it doesn't gas lock. now i don't know if this is true but is sounded good to us. the bottom of the ditch is what is inpotant and this is what we hold to a close tolarance. i use a bucket of rock that is leveled off and put it in first. this gives me almost exactley the 10 inch of rock in the bottom of the ditch. when i cover the pipe with a bit more rock it comes out almost perfect( with in an inch or 2 ). i kind of think that the pipe is just there so that if the soilids block the gravel there is still a chance of it getting through the pipe. we had to start useing sch 40 for cross overs this year, which i think is a mistake becase we used to just turn the holes up and place gravel around the pipe in the cross overs so that if they got crushed the water would still drain through the rock. but with the hard plastic it just snaps and then it doesn't let water go around.
I have install 1000 feet in one day with a rubber tired backhoe with one helper.I dig ditch dump 6" in bottom of trench install corrugated pipe and dump trench to two inchs over pipe.I have had inspector who took shoots on pipe in four places on every trench.I never check pipe grade after digging it.Its alway right. Dig bottom grade right and every thing esle has to be right.I use skidsteer now and only use shovel to lean on.
not to rain on any one's parade but 1000' feet in day to include trench diging and backfill sound like a lot. It could be that you are using rolls of pipe and I use sdr35 but still sounds like a lot. I just put in a 900' system check this thread out. Maybe if the ground is dry, most of the time for me I have to work in the mud. 1164499105 In NY the inspector would laugh at you if you used rolled pipe.
We use roll plastic and plastic drop boxes and gravel trench starts 3' feet from box. We stub out from box with 3' feet of rigid 3034 pvc the switch to roll plastic.We are allowed up to 100' feet out of each side of box. We are not allowed to but septics in wet or frozen soils.Now days less then 3% of septics are trench.Most septic system we install are mounds or AT-grades.I am in lake county ILLinois.One county over they still use trench with 3034 rigid pipe.There werdos in that county some contactors but gravel in ditch with dump truck.By backing up to trench and dumping in.That alot of backing and pulling up.They install blocks under pipe to level and dump gravel in.Skidsteer is best way to install stone.
The purpose of the pipe is to be the conduit for the gray water to reach the end of the pipe,hit the end cap,and then start backing up slowly. While the water is rising,it will then start dropping in the perforations and into the stone which acts as the medium to allow the water to perk into the surrounding soil.EVERYTHING regarding septic systems is for a slow flow,thus the term leach fields.Therefore,the grading of your stone under the pipe is just as important as the soil's grade for it to function properly.
Around here and I'm sure in many other places,BOH inspectors for the most part are definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer.They are usually rejects from an engineering company where they got canned and now are gov't workers.True,the pipes will vent back to the tank and then to the structure, but that's hardly their intended purpose.Now your thinking about solids blocking up in the voids of the stone is invalid also as there should be no solids--just gray water.The baffle on the tank will insure this and even if some got by,what good would it be to have water just standing in the pipes if there was nowhere for it to go??? Case in point how stupid these inspectors are: hot-looking blond inspector is checking my work,likes everything except the 90* I have as the inlet for the D box.She says I haven't been reading THE manual lately.I plead guilty--told her it really doesn't make for good bathroom reading.She's a b****,not amused--says nothing greater than a 45* can be used in that application.So I ask her--then why is it OK to have the outlets in the box use multiple 90*'s? She can't answer this--so anyway I tell her no problem--give me 10-15 minutes--go check the well and come back.She comes back to see 2 45*'s that I stuck together and signs off. True story last year.
The purpose of the vents is to prevent the bacteria from becoming anerobic. If there is air moving through the system, the bacteria works more efficiently, thus making the system work properly. As far as solids in the field. You will ALWAYS get some particulates in suspension in the field. Over time, the particualtes build-up in the field, creating the black mess you see in a failed system. The particulates smother the bacteria and slowly kill the system. I've never seen the type system that you mention lgammon. We have far too much rock/boulders to dig anything with a skid here. I usually build a stone wall with the rocks I dig out when I'm done. In Maine, you now have to have the local Plumbing Inspector look at the site before digging, look at it when down to mineral soil before placing stone, inspect when installed before backfill and then inspect after grass germination. 4 inspections, and this doesn't include the engineer's initial layout/inspection.:Banghead Anyone else doing Presby Enviroseptic systems? I have 7 septics scheduled in the next 1-2 months, 3 will be Presbys, 1 In-drain, 2 stone beds and one yet to be decided. I have always been a big fan of a stone bed, but the Presby looks as though it will be my new favorite. The Presby class is pretty good and he claims that 90% of new system installs in New Hampshire are Presby. http://www.presbyenvironmental.com/ Some of his concealed vents http://presbyeco.com/prod_concealer.html The stacking of pipes and some of his inventions are pretty neat. There is lots of info on the site.
This Presby system seems to me just like so many other gimmicky,plastic component type systems being marketed.Tried to keep an open mind but really they don't explain just how their system works.Short of oxygen producing pumps,chlorine doughnuts,etc.,the oldest and still the best is a conventional leach field using plenty of stone.If you pump your tank every 2-3 years,insure outlet baffle integrity,and take it easy on bleach,a properly installed system should last almost forever.
I agree'd with you when I initially saw this system. After doing a little research, though, these things have been around for 15-20 years and are holding-up extremely well. I like the fact that you can drive on them as well. With 18" of cover, you can place them in a driveway. Almost all the McDonalds retaurants in New Hampshire have these systems in the parking lots. The biggest thing helping these sytems be effective is his insistance on vents. By allowing air into the system, the bacteria works much better. Perhaps stone beds would be more effective with vents?
Interesting concept although my province isn't on board yet.What was your opinion of the class? I've broken down the cost of an Infiltrator field to roughly $10/foot how would this system cost compare?
I have yet to price materials this spring. Monday I'm meeting with my engineer to lay out two systems, one is on the side of a mountain so we're going with the Presby. When I get the plans back I'll let you know how the figures work-out. I'm looking forward to doing some of these in tight spots where getting stone in is a pain. Sand is easy enough, if you start at one end once the pipes are down, and fill over as you go. I did one 3 years ago with Presby pipe and haven't done any since. Now that I've had the class, I want to do some more and use some of his suggestions. As far as the class, it was a lot of sales pitch, with a little training thrown in. I learned a lot, especially about how a system actually uses bacteria and air as well as how to make it work more efficiently. The stacking of pipes on top of one another with this system kind of throws me, but he has them out there that are 4 or more layers deep. There's no doubt in my mind he is highly intelligent and has some great ideas. He claims it is just a mater of time before he can build one of these systems that will treat the effluant to the point where what leaves the system will be drinking water quality. I can do the average stone bed here (25' x 55') with a tank for $5-$7 / square foot, complete with tank, d box etc... I generally don't figure them that way, as each has it's own challenges for access, materials delivery, mud etc... etc... I all but refuse to do infiltrators. I find that they are a pita, and I can make more money doing stone beds etc... I got a call from a friend yesterday that wants me to do an expansion on an infiltrator system and I may tell her to find someone else. lgammon, what does your systems work out to roughly per square foot? Just curious how it compares.
First of all, I should mention that although I haven't installed septic systems since 1994, I am enjoying this whole discussion... brings back lots of memories... I was an installer from 1975 up until 1994, when I discovered I could make more money just hauling rock and sand for everybody else. I am/was a firm believer in drainfield systems using rock and pipe as a distribution medium, but I also put in several systems using 10" gravelless drainfield pipe like the Presby stuff... it was an option that was up to the homeowner - some of them requested it... we called it "SB2 Pipe", but I think that is only a brand name... 10"corrigated pipe with a fabric "sock" around it. Minnesota has allowed, and still allows, that gravelless stuff since at least the early 1990's, but only in gravity flow trenches - not in mound or bed types of systems... If I remember right, it seems like we could use it to replace standard 2' wide rock and pipe trenches at an equal 1 to 1 ratio... I liked putting it in since it went in fast - if the bottom of the trench was to grade, you were done with leveling - no grade stakes and no rock to shovel and push around. I can't remember if it was much cheaper than rock and pipe, but I think it was a little less, at that time. It doesn't get used too much around here anymore, since all the "easy" systems have already been installed and the majority of them are now pressurized mounds or beds... in fact pressure distribution is encouraged even for systems that could be gravity flow. No drainfield system in MN can have over 3' of top cover (backfill), and one of the reasons for that is oxygen - the bacteria in a drainfield do need oxygen, and if it's too deep it can't get to the bugs... I think that venting any system, rock or otherwise, would be good, but would probably not help with things freezing up in the wintertime... ...by the way, atgreene; doesn't it get cold in Maine and New Hampshire? If you tried to put an 18" deep bed under a McDonalds parking lot around here it would be a slab of underground smelly ICE before Christmas! We're not even supposed to let our dogs and kids walk across a drainfield in the winter in Minnesota. srs/MN
I like the thought of stacking as it'll reduce the footprint of the field and reduce time for excavation especially in those tight 1 acre lots.Hopefully the province will approve the system so I could give one a try to test it out. Average below ground system with a 1000 Litre tank,dist. box,200' of infiltrator and misc 4'' pvc pipe and fittings plus the application fee & backhoe time gets me $6000.
If it's under a plowed area, most sytems are insulated, or put slightly deeper. 3' deep and with the amount of warm effulant running in the system probably won't freeze, but I'll ask him when I see him again. Most D boxes and lines are required to be insulated now anyway. It's not a very big system, so insulating with 2" of styrofoam would be fairly easy. And it can be pumped or gravity or placed on a slope up to 15%, 20% with a waiver. The footprint of these systems are considerably smaller, so there is a benefit near the lake where most lots are only 50' x 100'. When you have to try to keep 100' from the high water mark and 100' from wells, space is at a premium. The in-drain system that I'm starting next week is replacing a stone bed my father helped install in 1972 for a 6 bedroom summer house. It's just 100' from the water, approximately 18" from the deck and beside another 32 concrete chamber system for the primary house. It required 3 waivers to get approval. Squeezing 39 in-drains on a small lot that all ready has an 8 bedroom system can be a challenge. Anything that saves space is a good thing.
well here the standard for a 30-45 min perk is 330' and we get 3200 for them and the bad soil gets 370' feet for a 3 bedroom we get 3500 for them. we have no d-boxes we just do cross overs at the end of the trenches. around here we get 20-30 years out of one of these systems. we used to put in alot of the 10 inch pipe but now the inspectors say that they don't hold up. we never had any problems with them, but i think that some of the guys that would put these in and not gravel were to lazy to do it right. i think they cost us a little more to put in but we didn't need a skid on site so it worked out.
Funny how different things are built in our country.Explain please how your tank outlet gets hooked to your leach fields if there's no D box.By crossovers, you mean at the end of each field,instead of terminating,you connect all the ends to create a looped system?Actually,if that's the case,one county from me also uses this method--I did one once--royal PITA.
Forgot to mention we usually get $16-18 a foot for fields,$10 a foot was like 20 years ago here.