New joint that I'm working at just got one of these rebuilt for $47k and the owner is a little upset, the mechanic did a really good job from the outside and I told him it probably would have been 50-60k at Detroit. New turbo, injectors, fuel pump, lots of work done. Reran the air compressor which I would have changed. I'm curious what you guys think?
did that include installation?
It's a series 50 and not a series 60? From what I found it's a 4 cylinder engine. I was told it's generally about $2000/cylinder to rebuild just a basic engine. Turbo, injection pump and other accessories are extra. If the block needs extensive work like line boring could see it being more expensive but $47K seems really excessive for a 4 cylinder engine. What's a new engine worth?
Yes with install and removal and I'm guessing 2 oil change samples. They stopped making the 50 is something like 2005, it's used because of weight as it weighs the same as a 671. It was something like 20k in parts without the turbo/injectors.
I've only had one of them opened up. More or less a Series 60 but with 2 less cylinders and balance shafts. Can't see why parts would be so much. I've heard of people having a Series 60 done for less that.
YIKES!!!!
Ok-------A Series 60 DDEC 3 500 hp 1575 torque 12.7 liter---OEM is $37,500. The core return can run $11,500 if not acceptable. That's a Complete engine, all external components as well as all internal components. * The last Series 60 I did was a 14 liter. New head, piston/liners/con rods, oil pump, turbo, water pump, injector harness, complete gasket set, air compressor, fan hub, all bearings, head bolts, Included removing front structure and checking bull gear and gear train, plus new oil cooler. IIRC total parts all oem was $14,500. that was 5 years ago. Now I would expect same parts cost at $16,500. * I rebuild a Big Cam III 855 for $16 to $17,000 Complete ready to drop in. I charge 100 hrs @ $50 an hour which I'm still making decent money just farting around in spare time. That includes block & head machine work. Inflation---has gotten ridiculous with people charging exorbitant labor and parts prices trying to get rich off each job. The one I just sold--the young guy called me told me he had it installed, was extremely happy that he turned the key and within 3 revolutions it was setting there just idling smoothly, No leaks great oil pressure runs dead on at 185*. Hauled a load of hay at 80,000 lbs and pulled well. I would rather have a happy customer with what he paid and performance considering to send me one out of another truck he has for a rebuild. A good business runs on volume because of reasonable prices and good work, not cashing in on high level sales. * There are good aftermarket parts and prices available but it takes some sourcing to find them. * Series 60 14L.
Clown world. The game has changed and it’s expensive. One of my regular customers had a catastrophic failure on a DD15 in a 2015 M2 Freight shaker. The swing engine was $63k and install was $15k at the local dealer. Finally back on the road as of last week. Holy cow. Did he have to take it to the dealer? IDK? Nobody else wanted to do it. A lot of independent shops are steering away from those sort of work orders. Who wants to carry invoices like that in 2024? What if the customer don’t pay or files bankruptcy like every other trucking company is? Who wants to get stuck with a ragged out M2 on a mechanics lean?
That's allot of it. But ever since 2020 the corporations charge it because who's going to stop them--It's a because they can situation. The industry created it.
The independent guys have been slaughtered, but the big boys are getting slaughtered, too. Interesting times in the trucking biz. Who’s going to haul the Doritos?
It's a go bust situation. The worst business to be in right now is anything to do with trucking.
Sounds like a shop trying to cover thier mismanaged expenses on every job they can.Id be comfortably retired now if id been bold enough to hose my customers. But at least i can still talk to near all them . Thats worth something.
That seems high but not necessarily ridiculously high. I just did an out of frame on a C12 that dropped two valves and ate two lobes off the cam. I did have several days in fixing previous neglect and shade tree work not related to the actual engine build and I had $20k in labor. I didn’t buy the parts so I’m not sure what he paid for them. If it had been a better maintained truck labor would have been around $15k.
2018 dealer {Freightliner} inframe on Series 60 with head, cylinder packs, cutting block for repair sleaves, exhaust manifold plus the usual incidentals--$18,000 average price. So in as little as 6 years it went to stick it in and break it off. Cascadia radiator replacement, radiator cost $1,050-dealer time 7 hours at what $150/$160--I'm an old fart I can still rip one and stuff in three hours and that's two coffee breaks. Who is crapping who. * Sorry boys but the whole damn industry is responsible-right down to the ******* running the road service charging $175 for a 30-30 can a 100 dollar call out, milage, and 500 to put it on. Everyone is involved from top to bottom----Just wait till another 2008 rolls around and it's coming and when it does all the scalpers will be walking around with their own scalp in hand begging for a flat tire on a wheel barrow to fix.
You guys are getting ripped off on labour in the US.
Its the wild west again down here, but the lack of an experienced labor force is helping to steer the cart off the road
Converting the field rates in my area to US dollars we're about $40 an hour less than some of the shop rates (yes shop rates) I hear quoted in the US.
The major truck dealerships and equipment dealers are all over $200 an hour. Ag dealers are less. Independents are all over the map. Some have a small toolbox in the trunk of their car lol. I’m around half of the major dealers. I have a yard, shop, service truck and specialty tooling. Have considered raising my rates. It’s an expensive business if you’re trying to serve your customer. Add to the above my parts room that’s probably got $35k worth of stuff in it. I do make a profit on the hardware, hoses etc but that comes back in little bites. Add in all the insurance coverage, taxes etc you’ll find it’s not as profitable as it sounds. What’s driving all those costs? We could debate that for days. It is what it is. I calculate my overhead, what I’d like to profit and go from there. Some days you eat the bear and some he eats you. They’ll pay whatever it costs to have it done once and done right.
It just boils down to greed IMO.
Inflation here is a real thing too. Causes are debatable but the truth is our dollar is worth less than it was a few years ago and stuff costs more.
It's back to generational---I want my toys and I want them now----when society lives on a maxed out credit card paying interest up the Kazoo--they soon learn the greed factor, vicious cycle they have put themselves in. So it's I need more money, more money, more money. find one person to admit it I'll eat my hat.
Thing that gets me is most dealer shops around me manage to keep the lights on and pay their staff very well on rates cheaper than what I typically hear quoted down in the US. I'm just curious as to why there's such a difference.
Just like I run my business. Material costs are up, labor costs are up and overhead costs are up so my profit needs to at least go up the same percentage or I am loosing money. Nothing wrong with making a profit - I am not in the dirt moving business as a charity. The market keeps our rates (at least in the site work business) competitive. We win or lose jobs by 1% sometimes. Like you said Junkyard - somedays you eat the bear, others it eats you.
A lot of places don't care much about customer service anymore. It's all about how much they can squeeze out of the customer. Every little thing is extra. They charge like lawyers. If you call them up to ask a question regarding your job, they'll add it onto the bill. My dad had a better than 75% market share and was good friends with his customers because they knew he wasn't trying to rip them off. He'd go out of his way to look after them and wouldn't charge extra for it. He got paid back by having long term repeat customers and had the best reputation in the industry. He also went to a lot of factory training so really knew his stuff. When he went to sell what was his former competition, his customers followed him. A former idiot salesman from that competition suggested there was something fishy going on because he tried to get a certain customer to buy the same machines for years but they always bought from my dad and now all of a sudden they're buying the machines he used to sell. Nothing fishy at all. The customer knew they'd get the best possible after sales support from my dad regardless what brand he was selling. I don't know if a lot of outfits nowadays put as much emphasis on customer service and repeat business.
Everyone has the right to make a profit--that's part of business, why they are in business. But when parts such as this one made by the same manufacture come in at such a wide gap in competitive price range--well it speaks for it's self. Cummins--$1,000 bucks, made by the same company. ATL $329--there's something wrong with the system/market. https://atldiesel.com/products/3101655-cummins-n14-new-vibration-dampener? * The huge corps drive it and everyone has to follow or get run over. not a good system. *
Reminds me about the time I needed a alternator for the road sweeper used in the quarry eighteen years ago. Sweeper is a Rosco, call dealer we got it from and believe they quoted $1156.00. This is just a little Cummins 4B3.3 diesel Not! a 1710 V-12 Cummins! So next called the local Cummins dealer and they quoted me $562.00. Then I called the place we got most of our starters and alternators from, it stated as a small local outfit but I think they service much of the NorthEast last I knew, at first they were hoping to repair it but said best to sell us a new one and they would credit us some for the core. That ended up costing total of $214.29 delivered to our door.
The mechanic that did the rebuild is a local outfit, 2 employees including himself. Anyone know how much a long block is? I don't think they make 50 long blocks so what about a non egr 12.7 s60
As I posted in post #7.
And that Cummins dampner is $100 fron China Nt855 N855 N14 Qsn14 Engine Vibration Damper 4987064 3101655 211916 217323 - Buy N855 Vibration Damper,Rubber Vibration Damper,Nt855 Vibration Damper Product on Alibaba.com Nt855 N855 N14 Qsn14 Engine Vibration Damper 4987064 3101655 211916 217323 - Buy N855 Vibration Damper,Rubber Vibration Damper,Nt855 Vibration Damper Product on Alibaba.com www.alibaba.com
Probably a solid steel knock-off
I'd bet it's the source for the one Truck shop linked to. Joe H
The one Truck Shop linked he said is the same supplier as Cummins.
Really----your going to question my sourcing my work----coming from a guy who couldn't remove stud pilot wheels because he didn't know there were inner nuts. The great Jag Mech. clown. * Lets try that again.
That was in response to the other guy Seen a video the other day about knock-off vibration dampers that were just solid steel with a rubber o-ring glued to the front face to make it look legit.
I saw that video too, insane
Dave, I guess I missed that in Truck Shop's post, sorry. As to not knowing how to get those Budd wheels off, I didn't run across many of those on Jags. Seems Vtech said he spent a few hours going at them wrong first time he ran into them. Guess I've pissed you off, my apologies. Joe H
Let's tone the attitude down several notches. This type of behavior is not promoted on HEF. From the rules: Now let's carry on..
You mean it could be one of Cummins offshore specials. That country is perfectly capable of making top quality stuff, too bad they aren't consistent in that endeavor.
I used to import from China, some is poor quality some is not. If I specify cheap that's what I get., same with quality. There's no reason to assume it's all the same, because it isn't. Just like here, you get what you pay for. That company where I found the dampener makes parts, I've not dealt with them so don't know anymore than what is on line. https://phonest.en.alibaba.com/inde...7f0P9ESnN&from=detail&productId=1600684971687 Just because something is sourced here does not make it better or worth the money. As Truck Shop said Everyone has the right to make a profit--that's part of business, why they are in business. But when parts such as this one made by the same manufacture come in at such a wide gap in competitive price range--well it speaks for it's self. Cummins--$1,000 bucks, made by the same company. ATL $329--there's something wrong with the system/market. https://atldiesel.com/products/3101655-cummins-n14-new-vibration-dampener? That huge mark up is justified ? If you can get it elsewhere for less why not? A couple days ago someone asked about a Case transmission ECU that's $8,000 from Case and not available. There's a few dollars worth of parts, and a good chance most of those electronic components came from China originally. Where they were assembled to unknown, but what makes it worth $8K? And even more to the point, why does a transmission need a $8,000 gizmo to make it shift ? And why is a $100,000 machine dead in the water without it ? Again to quote Truck Shop there's something wrong with the system/market. Joe H
You can get quality from china, but it is often not asked for, always cheap
One thing I brought in long ago was foam guns. These things I think they were less than $7 each by the pallet. When the first batch got here I was looking at them and pulled the trigger. Pfssssssssstttt, out came Chinese air. I'm at 6750' so it was sea level air in there. It's been about 12 years ago and the few I kept still have that pressurized air in them I think although haven't used one in awhile. So the quality is there, or can be. Those things sell for $30 to $70 every where, and no matter who is selling them they came from China. The first one I bought was a Hilti, it was about $75 then, and it was from China too. Said Hilti on it but made in China, looked like this So the moral of the story is who knows what you'll get from China but it's not necessarily junk. Joe H
Every manufacture farms out some production and or parts manufacture, I think its been that way since the big one, WW2. Problem is now you don't really know what country or who has made said parts. $8K transmission controller for a tractor? And that is one of the main reasons for them to convert to electronics, they know they have you over a barrel when it comes to a little black box computer, that you have to have now. In a car its supposedly to help with the phony emissions, that jet engines don't have to comply with. Why does a tractor need electronics for a transmission? Its time to use something like a Mega squirt transmission controller open source, or use some stinking relays and switches to run the thing.
Almost all components are made by 3rd parties Any more what's more is in my reasherch there typically is only one producer of a part and oem and aftermarket get them from there Ordered parts to rebuild the rear axel on. Cat 416c from the dealer brakes and seals were almost 2500 bucks ordering aftermarket was 1100 here's the kicker the axel was made by new Holland they were the same parts aftermarket as oem no difference The oem marks up the part on acquisition the oem warehouse puts handling on it dealer recieves at there main warehouse puts markup on it ships it to the store and it gets marked up again It's a never ending hallway of middle men for parts anymore that's where a huge amount of the cost get added up to the end guy add in that there is a lot of corporate bloat Around here shop rates and field rates are getting to be the same it feel like extortion the cat dealer has a shop foreman a service manager 2 service writers and now they have customer liaisons so about 6 non producing wages for the 12 wrenches that work in that shop and that's no to mention the backend accounting department costs It's a moral thing anymore on the gouging of customers I see it in everything now people don't have the moral compass to be content with standard biz they got to get there mostly mortgage on one invoice
This is all true, but...outfit I get starters/alternators from, always tries to sell you Chinese junk first for like $100. They also catalog various other grades of the same part number, no rhyme or reason. You have to ask for a cross reference Denso to replace a Hitachi since Hit. won't sell aftermarket any more. But the Denso has a totally different size and shape, wire connections not in the same place. Or take Chinese and take your chances that it will quit in a month.
As to the labor rate. We independents have to set the rate to limit the workload to a manageable level. Only way to keep it under control. If the rate has gotten high because of that, don't go buy a ski boat , because 2008 part 2 is just around the corner. Or is it? Been predicted now for the past 6 years and the work keeps coming. Doesn't matter to me. I like to work way better than water ski anyway.
I think what we are seeing is what has been predicted for the last 10-20 years - the skilled labor gap. Been reading about it for years where fewer and fewer younger folks were going into the trades and the old timers are stepping out. Now what we are experiencing is exactly that IMO. BV I think you hit the nail on the head with this line - The bed has been made and society is going to have to lay in it. For years management salaries have increased from the C-suites down to the local managers % wise more than the skilled workers actually doing the job. This has caused young ones to seek other career paths than the trades. Call it whatever you like but it just boils down to supply and demand. Even if the demand wanes the supply (skilled workers) is still low and will be for the foreseeable future. Just my $.035 adjusted for massive inflation.
When running a mall is good enough to run a paving outfit what kind of mechanics will be employed?
Old Mitchell manuals had labor rates in the back, seems 50/50 % split was common. I worked for a dealer in the early 70s, every time the labor rate went up my % went down. And then I left. Joe H
Good mechanics will always be called, after the bad ones have taken their swings at it.
How many swings is it going to be haha
It depends on the mall. Not that it was managed the best but West Edmonton Mall has an amusement park and a water park. There are several really good millwrights and a full welding shop. Rides were shut down every year and stripped down to check for cracks or other issues. A lot of the rides needed constant maintenance.