Read an article the other day that indicated a trend by trucking companies of outfitting their fleets with automatic/semi-automatic gearboxes because they can find drivers who are experienced with manual gearboxes. Now I think that gear shifting is a required skill for a truck driver and if you can't drive a crash box (or even a synchro box) you should not be driving a truck. I have posted a poll to get an idea of what other members think. BTW sorry if this has been discussed before, did a quick search and could not find anything.
It's my understanding that the military's Humvees are all automatic transmissions because they can't find "kids" that can drive a standard transmission.
I don't know about the US but here in Australia there is a big move to semi/full autos to try to get women into the industry, good idea, If I can talk the beloved into it she can do the driving and I will spend my time in the bunk. What do you think my chances are?
I don't particularly care what the gender is but ya still gotta know how to double clutch.
Fair enough. BTW I just noticed you are an Aussie so you know getting good drivers is hard. We had shocking trouble attracting and keeping good staff (Bris-Melb-Perth). Since we upgraded the trucks we seem to be able to hire more easily. To tell you the truth I don't really care if someone can drive an older beast so long as they get to where they are going safely and on-time. I like the idea of making trucks to suit drivers rather than the other way around.
Yes it is an issue that people don't want to drive interstate much anymore but dumbing down the trucks is not going to solve that problem. It's more about working conditions. I can see the advantages of an auto box in city driving but the question is if they are not smart enough to learn how to use a road ranger gearbox, are they going to be smart enough to do anything else, like changing trailers, backing up to a ramp, tying down loads, changing a tire, checking the fluids, greasing the truck, etc I suppose that we need to keep the wheels rolling but having a bunch of half trained drivers is going to cause problems as well.
Hendrik, as far as I can see...this thread is about Humans, Technology and Change....none of which remain motionless. I basically object to your "dumbing down" statement because I think thats a poor way to view change and new technology. I used to drive old Whites, MAN, Atkinsons and ACCO's. I was much younger and was used to crash boxes and machines with "personality traits". Quite some skill was involved in running those old girls...and thats probably a skill that many drivers wont have these days. I can see your standing. However, when the slush box technology overhauls the manual clutch its time to get onboard with the new stuff. I look at it this way: if its my truck with 710 Hp under the floorboards and 80 tonnes of valuable cargo on the back, with a less than top notch driver...I'll let the computer make the decisions on the hill starts. The big disadvantage to having "auto only" drivers is when you have a mixed fleet and drivers need to be able to jump in any vehicle. Thats a pain. My first excavation was with 4 sticks and foot pedals...I'm not complaining about joysticks now....in fact, if you wanted me to go run an old 4 stick hoe I'd tell you what you could do with your old hoe None of my operators could run a 4 stick hoe but that doesn't make them any worse on a modern excavator. Do you get where I'm coming from? You'll also note that I said "when the slush box technology...." Most of the experienced drivers I know don't like the autos.
It's a sign of the times, automation is becoming a way of life. I worked for a company who ran 50 tractors and over 100 trailers all with RoadRangers, I sometimes would have to just shake my head and walk away when I heard the way some of the trucks were being abused. I honestly don't know why repairs weren't at a much higher rate than they were, I can only guess it was due to our loads not being as heavy as they could have been. The only automatic equipped heavy trucks I've driven have been fire vehicles, they have all had 5 speed Allisons. The region I live in has many many rolling hills and I'm certain I could get a truck to a scene faster if I had a RoadRanger in place of the Allison. I would bet more safely as well since the Jake seems a lot more effective on standard transmission than an automatic. As Squizzy mentioned, the automatics are easier on the drivetrains than a standard with an inexperienced driver. The torque converter cushions a lot of the shock load that would be experienced through a clutch equipped vehicle. I've seen a lot of driveshafts spit out and pinion gears sheared by guys who don't understand shock loads.
I agree with Steve. It's like when was the last time you operated a new dozer with steering clutches and no decelerator pedal
Yes I suppose 'dumbing down' is an awkward term to use but my point is that instead of proper training we use technology to fill the gap. I had to learn to use a RR box and managed to do this without too much difficulty, sure there where a few lock outs and grinds but I got there. It is not rocket science, it is a matter of understanding the relationship between engine speed, road speed and gear selection. I guess I am just having a whinge about society 'dumbing down' in general, I am guilty of this as well by using spellcheckers and calculators instead of forcing myself to do it manually. My ute has an auto and it is nice when driving through town. Technology is also creeping into earthworks by using lasers to do grades and such, we may well see in the future that plant operators cannot do a job without them. Would you be happy to employ a supposedly fully trained operator who can't work without 20k worth of technology to do his/her job for them? Would you be happy to fly in a fully automatic plane where the pilot cannot land or take off without the computer helping him/her? I am not anti technology but I am against people losing basic skills because they don't have to push themselves to learn the basics of their trade. Assisted gear shift technology is great is some circumstances but I maintain that if you are going to be a professional truck driver there is a basic skill set that comes with that. Far as I am concerned technology should be there to help make us more efficient but not do the work for us to such an extent that we cannot do without it.
Yes but a fully experienced dozer pilot should be able to use an old D6 to do work with.
Would you be willing to pay a "fully trained driver" extra $$ to properly drive a DIY transmission v. an automated gearbox?
In the state that I live in the point is moot. You can't get a CDL without doing a driving test in a truck with a manual transmission. You have to do a perfect walk around inspection of the truck and if you miss anything required in the book you flunk. You do all this after passing the written test. This doesn't mean we don't get idiots driving trucks. It does seem to cut down on the ones that absolutely shouldn't be driving.
I would expect a person who claims to be a pro truck driver to be able to do all the things required for the job and funnily enough this includes the ability to shift gears. And the question still remains, if they are not smart enough to be able to get the hang of using a road ranger, are they smart enough to take your half million dollar truck across the country and back. Or is the load going to fall off half way because they can't check the load properly, or are half the tires going to be flat because they don't know how to bounce the tires. Basically I think that the transport industry needs to implement proper training courses to fast track drivers who are equipped with the skills to do the job, which would include the ability to use all transmissions properly. Whether crash, synchro, semi-auto or fully auto. That's what irks me, instead of addressing the issue of why there are drivers that cannot use RR properly, they take the easy route and get trucks which require less skill to operate. I would not have got so annoyed if the reasons given for going to assisted shift technology was on the grounds of fuel efficiency, driver fatigue and safety.
That's got me wondering too but I suppose they get around that by using synchromesh gearboxes to do their test. Not sure but I think over here if you do your test in a automatic truck you get an endorsement on the license that indicates that you are only allowed to drive trucks with automatics.
IMO, automatic trucker=not a real truck driver. For all that I can drive a oversized SUV and call my self a trucker. NOPE!
I mean, how hard is it to learn to shift, double clutch and all. If they can't learn that, then I wouldn't want them in my stuff.
some guys have a lot of problems learning...I was fortunate enough to have my first pick-up as a little 5 speed which taught me the basics...but the first time I got behind the wheel of a Mack with a Lo-hole...boy, watch out...If you can't find 'em..grind 'em I worked through that too and now consider myself pretty good at driving 8LL and halfway good at driving a 10 speed... I think the issue here is it all comes down to training, do the companies want to spend the time and resources of hiring a new driver that has never driven, teach him to drive a standard (because you have to know that first), then teach him to drive a real tranny?...or do the companies pay a little more for a truck upfront with an auto...stick a new driver in it and don't really have to teach him..then when he quits in a year because he didn't know what he was getting himself in to hire a new guy and give him the same truck and start the process over Personally I am with most of you on when I say to be a "good operator" you need to be able to hop in any truck/machine and go...not say you can't because you don't know how to drive it
Funny you said that, I learned how to drive standard in a 1995 honda civic and never desired to drive autos again. I have limited experience in driving a standard truck, but I feel its easy once you know where your gears are located. But that comes with getting familar with your truck. But until then hello grindsville
The big fleets here in America are using the Meritor FreedomLine & the Eaton UltraShift trans "both clutchless" to atract ******* & ******** *******. Remember a warm body in the truck is better than parking the truck. I have seen smaller fleets, < 200 trucks with a good core of regular drivers make a killing on fuel mileage. So who really knows ? I'm a damned diesel mechanic... don't even drive for a living... but I had to know how to shift gears ! UP and DOWN ! Along w/ the pretrip & manuverability tests to get my CDL.
That's kinda like asking should a "driver" that can't drive, be allowed on the road. Part of me wants to say no( in regard to the transmission question), but as S Cummins said, the larger companies look at truckin from the bottom line. So, what you end up with are gomers that can't shift gears, can't back up, can't make a corner without running over something, can't use common courtesy on the road or in a parking lot, can't bathe properly, can't use a bathroom, can't find a trash can, and can't miss every buffet from the left coast to the right. Sad state of affairs here. It's called the dumming down of the industry. What they are good at is talking on a cell phone, text messaging, peeing in bottles, driving a truck like it will stop on a dime (following to close), modeling beach/vacation clothing, and generally doing most anything they can to aggravate the general public, all while driving. Now, for those newer drivers out there, this is not an indictment of ALL newer drivers, just seems the gomers stick out more. Same thing is happening in the equipment operator field as well. I just saw several heavy equipment simulators advertised this week in a magazine. That's for me. I'll hire them over a seasoned operator anyday, because THEY HAVE CREDENTIALS. NOT OK, I'll get down off my soap box now. Just my .02 worth
There are "Gomers" like that in every industry. The thing about them in trucking is they are right out in public, annoying, scaring, and generally putting other motorists at risk. In most other fields of work, they go unnoticed except for those unfortunate people who work with them. I get worried around trucks of certain national carriers because of this. You just never know what to ecpect from them.
I can definily see the advantages of auto trannys, esp with large carriers etc. I know many guys who have been driveing for 30 years who still ride the clutch brake, grind them, dump the clutch on dump trucks like t hey are gonna jerk the box off etc. I can see why many fleets run autos and the advantages of them, however, I still think it should be required at the driving test to take the test with a manual trans. You should at least have the basic knowledge and skill to drive a manual box if required. Even if you are going to are a new driver, are going to work for a fleet with autos etc you should at least know how to shift a manual box.
Had one truck with an automatic in it. Was only a Ford F250 pickup. Bought it cause I needed a truck bad. Will never ever have an other one. My pickup now has a 6 speed, dump trucks 18 speed and lowboy tractor a 15. The only way to be.
Hi there all, just read this post and throught I would share a couple of my views. I am pro auto's or should i say auto shift, as i am yet to have drivern a full auto box. One of the trucks the company that i work for has a Isuzu Tipper with a Auto shift box. I have to say i love it, nothing better than getting into the truck and just putting into gear and letting it go. This is compared to one of the other trucks we have with not much more than 100,000 kms and 7th gear is so lose it comes out etc etc etc with a range of drivers in it. Yes out work is metro and auto shift is the way to go there. As for highway work, have seen a number of companys going to auto shift as they getting better fuel economy with a auto shift , and that dosent matter whose driving so again strike another on to the autos. \ Me i learnt in RR and am happy to drive one, but if i had the choice i would pick the auto. Its not about duming down or losing skills, its about graining new skills else where. Am sure there is more to know/understand about computers in newer trucks that used to be the case. note. here in SA, if you do a test in a Auto or syncro box thats all you can drive untill you do a test with a RR.
:thumbsup:thumbsup Spoken like a pro. The Isuzu Automated Manual is a very good system, although, I found it a little disconceting at first. Funny thing was, I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night and Hugh "Polar Bear" nearly ran up the rear end of the truck in front twice cause he couldn't get down a gear on descent. So theres your pro gear changer coming un-stuck with 30 years+ experience (A man who is never slow to tell you how good he is). I think the Automated Manual would have got down a cog without too much trouble........Trouble is, would an auto only driver know when to knock it down?? This report is a little jaundiced: http://www.ecoscientific.ca/safety.html The author demonstrates fatigue as the the biggest cause...but trys to blame the "monotony" of driving long haul on boring autos.....I'm sorry, but if you need to change gears to stay awake then you need to pull over. And anybody who has done long haul in Australia will tell you there is a long way between gear changes on many of our highways. The jaundiced arguement also does not transpose to cars where (in some countrys) autos make up to 60% of brand sales. We don't see smaller vehicles crashing all over because of autos....Its a crap article interspersed with a few facts. However, the author probably gets on the money at the end: The development of Hill descent modes for autos is certainly a big factor in gaining acceptance and safety. I still can't see why a suitably trained and qualified auto driver can't be a "driver". If there is no need to drive a manual then why qualify on one. However, maybe the driving test for automated manuals needs to be looked at.:beatsme I see metro buses going up and down the road everyday with full autos....should those drivers have to pass in a manual?. I've seen some comments about how complicated these transmissions are and the costs involved in the case of a breakdown. Well, in the case of fully automatic boxes they have always been expensive to repair. In the case of automated manuals its a load of bollocks. The two mechanisms are no more complicated than any of the other systems on the truck and are basic technology at best. The computer that controls the automated manual is going to prove more reliable and accurate than a human driver ever will. Look around, there is dam computers under the bonnet of just about everything we drive. The computers operate the ABS, traction control and the stability control systems all the time. If your on a Trans Pacific flight don't think the pilot is flying the plane for 16 hours. Hell, there are planes that are'nt even flown by the pilot...computers do it all. My concern is, when it eventually does break...or needs an update...will the mechanic that comes out to fix it know how to...and will he have the latest firmware in his laptop ointhead...no doubt he will have the latest version of Donkey Kong though....they still have Donkey Kong don't they...????
I have nothing against auto box trucks but my original question was if someone who can't work out how to shift gears in a truck would you be happy to share the road with them, that 'report' (although a little light on with facts) does highlight the problem of inexperienced drivers being put behind the wheel, sometimes with disastrous consequences both for themselves and other road users. As someone said in a earlier post, "what's better, park the truck or put someone in there who can only drive auto box", whilst I can see the logic, the problem is what happens in a bad situation?
Hey you "older" jockies...... can you imagine putting these guys in something like a two-stick 5x4 or the like? We used to have and old heavy (and I mean heavy) haul tractor that had a three stick 5x4 with a three speed Browning auxiary. And the best part.... top end on that rig was about 50 mph! Heater worked in the summer and the AC worked in the winter! Radio? Heck no, you couldn't have heard it anyway. Awe..... the good 'ol days!
From a practical standpoint, they need to know how to drive a manual. They may not always have the pleasure of driving an auto. I learned in a truck that had 6X4, and drove 7 years before ever shifting a Road Ranger. We have some 13 speeds and 15 speeds with the 4 speed aux behind them, but I still prefer the 5X4 or 6X4.
From memory those type of gearboxes are called joey boxes here in Oz, we had a lot of them in Inter Accos before the RR's came in. And yes I know how to shift them if my memory allows, main gearbox in neutral, shift range and engage lower/higher gear with appropriate engine revs. Anywho saw a lady today behind the wheel of a Kenny cab over (K104?) pulling a single down Port Wakefield road and she was in a hurry, don't know if she had auto clutch or not. Actually I have been seeing a lot of girls in semis but perhaps it is the same girl over and over? And they are not the old school type either, if you know what I mean