If you have caught any of the 'Tough looking Cat 320' Thread, you will probably be aware that here in the UK we just do not get 'Hydraulic Thumbs'. It is either a Grapple or a full hydraulic Selector grab for us, so I want to know more. I have heard the term progressive used, but uncertain as to the difference. It would be good to get a look at the different makes and how they integrate with Quick Couplers. So please 'Show your Thumbs'. Thanks Eddie
I think we're going to see a new project on here soon, eh Eddie?
Mine is a pin on progresive link style. I will on my next hoe have a quick coupler.Note in the first picture how worn down the tines are. I welded on ripper shanks with replaceable teeth and solved that problem.
A progressive link thumb gives you more rotation as the bucket cycles. I had one on a 321CLCR that worked great. I have pictures of it somewhere. Here is an example of a progressive link thumb. It has extra linkage to match the buckets rotation.
I'm learning already, I'd never come across the extra link on a 'Thumb' before and still pondering what effect it has. Maybe a comparison video or two would help! Cps you never know what's in the pipeline.
Here is a page from the Cat website that explains the progressive link thumb a little better. Now for a strange bucket/thumb combo I found this on Machinery Trader Then you have the Krypto Klaw from Rockland.
Pretty standard CWS thumb, standard link. Has a wedge type quick coupler
One thing for sure you want with a thumb is a coupler. It sure is a pain trying to beat a pin through all the extra holes if you need to change buckets without one. Second, if you can go with the progressive link. The direct acting like Timmy posted above is OK, but you run out of motion with it right about when you need a few more degrees to place something. They just won't follow the bucket around far enough. The progressive link style thumb I have on my 330CL will follow the bucket all but about the last 2 or 3 inches of travel, at the teeth. You can really lay something out there with it, and grab from many more positions. I have the Cat coupler with it as well, and it is a hard combo to beat. Third, be sure to get one rugged enough so you are not bending the tines when you grab something tough, or at a bad angle. I have had weak ones get bent before, and then they don't line up right. Good Luck with your search. Once you have a thumb, you will wonder how you ever got along without one.
Here's a couple of pics.
here some of mine i will take better one one i get back to it this week. HeavyEquipmentForums
Eddie ! ...I'll take some pics this weekend too of both of mine to show what they mean when the thumb cyl is stroked all the way out and the bucket is curled all the way out ..... the thumb can not travel as far as the bucket will ... if you are remotely thinking of a thumb don't cheap out ...GET THE PROGRESSIVE LINK ONE ... when I was changing up to the hydraulic QC there were none available imediately with out a longer wait .... the progressive link also uses a shorter cylinder than the same brand counter part so where the saddle gets welded to the stick its a different spacing so its not like you can chage it up later with out a total re/re
Thanks for all the pictures, I have grasped the progressive link concept and can see the advantage. However the little link from CM1995 to the 'Krypto Claw' really got me interested. Does anyone own or operate one? I'd love to see more as the company does not have a video of it in action. To me this would probably be what the UK market was missing, if it was as good as it looks? No welding of a bracket for a grapple to a machine, and no extra hydraulics for a selector grab. It also integrates well with our pin grabber hitches, and obviously should perform similar to a bucket and thumb. Not that I would know how a bucket and thumb work, because we dont have them yet!
I'd love a bit of help, this thumb thing really has never got going here, don't really know why not! I've also been considering a hydraulic thumb and eddie's right there are none here in the UK. Any tips on the best make, it seems I need a progressive thumb for a Hitachi EX150/5. Any advice gratefully received.
Eddie One thought I have about the Krypto Claw, and I have not ran one, but the satndard thumb or this claw operates as electric over hydraulic, so there is not really any fine touch with it. With a standard thumb, when you need a very fine touch such as picking up something fragile, you get the thumb close and then finish the grab with the bucket hydraulics. With the integrated claw you loose that ability, so if it is important to keep the fine touch, keep that in mind. For most applications, this would not be a problem, but it is important sometimes.
yeah i'm with jerry on this...i don't think i like the Krypto Claw...
I fabricated and welded a hydraulic thumb on the six ton sumitomo machine I have in Ireland. My dad and brother run it over there on the farm and it works well. The machine was already piped for a hammer with a floor pedal activating it so we looked around a bit and found we could get the circuit to be double acting which was a huge bonus and encouraged the build. One mistake I made with it is the cylinder I used was a bit big and thus made the thumb a bit slow. If i was living there full time I would make the effort to put a smaller one on it. I made it a few years ago when I was home on holiday and got bored after a couple of days. I sure wished you could have tried it eddie cause you would be sold by now:Banghead
Look online for thumb plans or offer to buy ready done plans from a us based company and get a local fab shop to make it for you, it really is a simple thing to do once you have the proper dimensions. Fab shop should be someone who works on or makes excavator buckets ideally as they will have access to all the proper pins and bushings ect
I have not gotten good with my thumb yet. Need more seat time. The point about using the bucket to apply fine pressure is very good info. I was picking up brush that had laid around and become much softer than green wood. The thumb seemed to smash right through it. Like a bull in a china shop. A progressive link would be nice but a good operator can do wonders with a standard link thumb also.
the trick is to practice picking up a pop can with out crushing it won a few lunches with that one
Eddiebackblade....please contact me at [email protected] if you would like some video and more information about the Krypto Klaw. I can explain more about how this product works.
Thanks for the good advice digger dan. I have a good fabricator here who has made one off pieces for me before. I did n't realise any of your fabricators would sell the drawings, i thought they'd be top secret! Great idea, but who's got the best designs I'll try and get a copy?
Here's the thumb on the hoe I use from time to time. I hate direct link thumbs. They're better than no thumb but a prog. linked thumb is so nice to have.
Like the pics coopers, is that a CWS thumb? I like the design.
Here's mine This is a pin on, and works fantastic. Makes the machine about a hundred times more useful. Once you use one, it's becomes apparent why it should be built out of the toughest steel you can find. Twisting! Also, the builder recommended i drop the relief pressure on the thumb to 2500 psi, and it makes a lot of sense. I think the stick would twist before the thumb, so this way the thumb breaks away before anything else starts to yield. Also, the volvo comes with both foot pedal and electric control for that circuit, so it works really slick. :drinkup
I just recently build a mechanical thumb for my 1.6 tonne Kub and the only draw back is that it is hard to see the quick coupler with the thumb on the machine but not a big problem. I should take some pictures of my set up because it is quite neat in the way it stows away.
I am a small contractor. I have (2) excavators (Bobcat 435 mini-11,00#, & Cat 315CL-40,000#) and both have thumbs. I would not buy a hydraulic excavator without one unless I needed a machine that would do nothing except dig trench. Both units also have couplers (hydraulic actuation). One important thing to keep in mind: The thumb (whichever brand you choose) must be made to work with a coupler (and specifically for that coupler), or for pin on. The thumb is not interchangeable. I suppose it can be done but it won't work correctly. Bucket rotation and the distance between the thumbs mounting pins and the bucket teeth change when you add a coupler. Progressive link thumbs have advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage is that you will get more rotation (out) than with a non-link thumb. This allows you to "grab" things closer to the machine than you can with the non-link thumb. If you have never used a thumb, you won't know the difference. If you have, it can be frustrating when trying to go back to a non-link (for the operator). The disadvantage is that some models don't "stow" out of the way as well as the non-link type. This is not usually a problem except when you are reaching out away from the machine to almost full extension or if you are digging around existing utilities. The other disadvantage is that you have three more sets of pins and bushings to wear out. Furthermore this main link pin is often not visible to the operator (because it's behind the thumb for part of the travel) and if it should come loose, and the operator tries to use the thumb, it will twist the thumb and linkage all to hell.
Bigkit, yes it is CWS. CWS makes great thumbs. I specifically like this thumb they make. I also like their buckets and couplers. PSM also makes a similar product and is also a very good company to look into. Their products looks similar to CWS. I actually had a PSM clean up bucket on in those pics. Coupler and digging bucket were CWS. PSM is in Washington State, USA. Direct link thumbs in my opinion are a joke with larger excavators. Okay for smaller ones but still a PITA. Stay away from CP products. Horrible designs.
Check out Loewen equipment. They make a pretty neat quick attach thumb set up. http://www.loewenequip.com Look under the for sale section.
great idea with the teeth!
quick attatch thumb looks pretty cool,i havent seen one yet im gonna chk out that site
I am enjoying the input from all on the whole thumb issue.:thumbsup Firstly I haven't had time follow up Rocklnd on the Krypto Claw yet, but shall do so. It would be good to get some pictures and input from a real user on here though. The latest idea from Lowenequip of a Hitch/Thumb combo is quite inspired also. I enjoyed the post from DGODGR, all very good information for us 'Non Thumb' operators. I know it's a bit sad, but I have been keeping a sort of mental note of how a good 'Thumb' set up would fare against my current 'Engcon Tiltrotator and Selector Grab' on clearance work. I am fairly convinced that obviously each has benefits, but a Thumb set up would be very low cost (by comparison) stronger,lighter and much less chance of being damaged. That's obviously not detracting from the outstanding ability of a Tiltrotator and grab, but I'm certain all will agree where any work involves clearing timber and brash then strong and simple is the way forward.
Eddie I was not thinking of your tilt rotator when I made the reccomendation against the Klaw. It would be the ideal match with the rotator, as the thumb part is always aligned. It would work good if you have good proportional E/H control for the aux curcuit it would work on. I love a thumb, and the idea of one I can turn whichever direction works best just blows my mind.
Hi everyone,new here. Looking for thumb on mini-excavator,either to buy or plans to fabricate. Takeuchi TB-035. Any ideas would be helpful,thanks.
Maybe this thread is dead, but if not I also would like to know if some brands of thumb are better than others, or is it just important to make sure you purchase a hyd. thumb with progressive linkage. I am currently pricing a thumb for a 35 metric ton machine. Thanks.
When i bought mine i didn't know anything about them. So i asked around some of the excavator dealers, and they told me who to avoid. There are some manufacturers that make cheaper units intended for the auction market. Those have a tendency to disappoint. After seeing the twisting forces applied, i'm glad i went with a unit with a good reputation. Mine is built from 100% AR400, designed specifically for my machine and bucket. Works great and very strong.
hows this?
Watglen, Thanks for the input. Sounds like everything, you get what you pay for, and if you pay more, there is usually a reason.
Hydraulic thumbs How do the hydraulic thumbs work, are they on an electric circuit? I've only been around the stationary ones, and they're a pain to use.
Hey Eddy thumbs are great when you do a lot of demolition type work or land clearing work as you can grab a larger amount of material when your loading out trucks. But one thing to note is that there is a large weight penalty, especially with progressive link thumbs. I do a lot of work with tilt buckets and find that thumbs just get in the way when I'm doing shape work and can make the machine more tippy when the bucket is full and I have to reach out to a truck to dump it. A few years ago I was digging a basement next to a demolition site cleanup. The company there was using an old Hitachi UH-181 and the operator there was a bit of a backyard fabricator and had built himself a thumb setup similar to the "krypto claw" and he said he preferred it over conventional thumbs as he could take the whole thing off much more easily and not suffer any big weight penalty's when using a breaker (which are pretty heavy) or using a larger sized bucket for truck loading dirt, gravel, etc. Here's another one called "powergrip" I've never used it myself but its a pretty clever design kinda like a 4 in 1 bucket for loaders. http://www.helac.com/construction/powergrip.asp Hope this helps
Hi Coopers, sorry its been a long time hope you're well! Things have been busy here but I'm back on the thumb thing. Can you tell me what the approximate ram size and the stroke is on your thumb on the 120 if you've got time please? I'm going through a creative phase........... Thanks in anticipation........
Generally they use the auxiliary circuit, designed for running attachments like hammers etc. Some machines do not have this and another circuit is plumbed into the hydraulics.
Bigkit, I can look into that.
Thanks a lot its much appreciated.
Thumbs are great for demo,I like my rake...
I, too have been watching this thread to get ideas as I built my thumb last winter for my 6 tonne excavator. Here is what I came up with. I decided to put a "flat" across, instead of fingers so I could pick up small trees out by their roots more readily. (easier to let them go without tangling) The trickiest part was figuring out where to get the fluid from. I tapped into the boom shift circuit with a 6way soleniod diverter valve. To make it easier, I just put it on the side of boom (see at top of boom lift cylinder) on a bracket.
Interesting boom setup.
Looks like it works well for you Errol. I have thought about putting a piece of grader blade across the thumb fingers to make it easier to pull out small trees etc. I haven't done it yet because I would like to make it removable. The fingers do come in handy for snapping long trees into shorter lengths.
Tootalltimmy, it was built for a special requirement. There are bug killed trees mixed in with green trees. It allows me to reach in and grab a tree and pull it out causing minimum damage to the surrounding trees. Like you said the small trees can be taken care of easily. Because the machine is small, any tree over 5 or 6" still has to be pushed over first and dragged out. But the flat thumb seems to grab the root ball no problem. The flat makes it easy to break the longer trees for piling. Of course if it were a normal land clearing job, then the brush grapple would be the way to go.
Errol. Are you working on your own property, customers, or forestry? I would like to get some paying work like that. My picture is on the son- in laws property. Lots of work but no money!
Ya, 245dlc, the boom was interesting to me too. I soon realized how handy it can be, and am using it more and more as the hours accumulate. I didn't use the feature at first, but now it's becoming automatic to me. The boom can side swing enough to dig a 7 foot wide without tracking. I'm also using it in ways helpful to the job at hand. Here I'm snaking through to push over a dead tree without killing the little green ones. The hole here by the fence could be squared off by tracking, but the offset boom made it a bit quicker. Ya, tootalltimmy, the dead tree job is my own, 2 acres done, 90 acres to go.
A Couple of points about thumbs if I may. I am going to break up my points on a few posts as I am not sure if there is a maximum size allowed. I have worked for a U.S. Attachment manufacturer for 28 years that builds an array of product for Loaders, Dozers and Excavators and our product line includes standard as well as custom attachments. I have been doing this a long time and am proud to say I do not know everything and admit I never will as a day does not pass that I do not have a new scenario thrown at me. I am keeping my company name anonymous as I feel forums are for the exchange of information not for selling product or diverting attention towards our particular product. When forums become too much like commercials they lose there appeal very fast. I am always wary when a poster names companies as there can be questions about their allegiance and motive. Certainly not in all cases but it happens. I have been visiting this forum for a number of years to learn from those of you who post as to what you need and what you do out there in the real world. And of course as is always popular, how you guys have broke it!! I have literally taken printouts of pictures and comments from this forum to our engineers and fabricators to use for input. Great job to all of you posters out here. One thing I have learned is what is best for one person is not going to be best for all. So do your homework before you buy regardless of the number of people that agree one thing is best. OK, enough of the BS I did not intend to be long winded. I talk to people and sell thumbs throughout the US and think I have noticed some trends. Mountain Time zone progressive Link style seems prevalent and preferred. Not a large percentage of machines have thumbs installed. West of the Rockies almost every excavator has a thumb installed and they are literally 100% Progressive Style. In the Southeast U.S. if a machine has a thumb installed chances are it is Direct Connect, Progressive style is catching on. New England, they go back to Progressive Style. Much to my frustration In the Mid West they say “what are thumbs”! Again this is all in general and there are exceptions to all but this just validates that what is best for one is not best for all
Let’s get to the meat and potatoes. Pin-On Thumb= The thumb ears straddle the outside of the bucket or coupler ears and a longer main pivot pin goes through the thumb ear, then the bucket or coupler ear through the stick and back out the other side. This is opposed to a weld-on “Generic” thumb that welds entirely to the underside of the stick. Pin-On Style thumbs can be Direct Connect or Progressive style, these both allow the bucket and the thumb to rotate on the same arc allowing better control of grip. A major factor in thumb fabrication is the stick length on the machine. Picture this; a longer stick means a longer thumb cylinder can be installed. A longer cylinder means to an extent more travel for either type of thumb. Yes typically a progressive link style will always have more travel, we call it Rotation, but in some cases very little is gained. When we build a thumb we always need the stick length to verify the fit. Typically thumbs have one less tooth than the bucket to allow the thumb teeth to lace with the bucket teeth. Thumbs are built to a length based on the bucket or bucket /coupler tip radius. Sometimes the longer the tip radius the more chance there is for the thumb to make contact with the machine boom when retracted. Again this is where the machine stick and bucket dimensions come into being a factor of achieving a correct fitting thumb. Another important factor is thumbs are always built longer when a coupler is installed to the machine due to the longer tip radius created by a coupler. If you are considering adding a coupler to your machine do it before or in conjunction with adding the thumb. Otherwise if you add a coupler later the thumb will be too short. I have seen thousands of dollars wasted by not following this sequence.
Progressive vs. Direct Connect thumbs , Progressive Style = the thumb cylinder attaches to added linkage provided with the thumb , much like the OEM bucket idler linkage, in turn that linkage then connects to the thumb body. Some New Style Progressive Thumbs are currently out that use a universal type "Rocker" Linkage. Progressive Style Thumb Advantages = In most cases added thumb travel or rotation is gained with Progressive Style. Some companies will claim added clamping pressure is gained, our computer models do not support that claim and I would not say it or buy it. I feel an overlooked advantage to Progressive is with the linkage used between the cylinder and the thumb the cylinder is pushed further up the stick keeping the cylinder rod out of harms way. Your expensive cylinder is not exposed to rocks, dirt, mud and water as much as the Direct Connect style would be. Progressive Style Drawbacks = Higher purchase cost, added weight, additional moving parts and pivot points needing maintained. Linkage parts on some thumbs are machine specific and may not be readily available. Progressive Link is only available as hydraulic operating. Direct Connect Style = the cylinder attaches directly to the thumb body. Direct Connect Style Advantages = Less expensive, Less moving parts. Less weight, Sometimes fits shorter sticks progressive thumbs will not. Direct Connect is available in mechanical, also called Stiff-Arm style. (No hydraulics required on the machine for Stiff -Arm = less $$) Direct Connect Style Drawbacks. Cylinder more exposed to damage, may be less rotation or thumb travel.
Hydraulic thumb operation Hydraulic thumb operation will require the machine to be plumbed by the OEM or with an aftermarket “Wet Kit” and there are options for controlling the thumb using a Joystick or a foot pedal. A thumb will not operate on a Hammer circuit as that is one way flow and two way flow is required. Some ”Combo” kits allow the selection of either type of flow to operate thumbs or hammers. Thumb hydraulic circuits are typically set to a lower pressure than the bucket circuit. What must happen when the thumb and bucket are opposing each other under pressure is the bucket must always be able to push the thumb. Thumbs for Dummies Hint, this is how we keep you all from breaking expensive things!
Thumbs Used with Various Attachments A trend we are seeing more of these days and it offers the best of both worlds, is equipping machines with a coupler and a thumb, with the coupler a bucket and a rake can be exchanged on the machine. The thumb can be used with the bucket when you want to contain and load material and the rake used with the thumb as a “grapple” for picking and sorting applications. Once a user in general and Multi-Task applications has this combination in their arsenal they will never, never have a machine without this arrangement again. Of course the thumb can at anytime be fully retracted and digging performed with the bucket. Make sure your thumb is not wider than your narrowest bucket for obvious reasons. Packages, while I will be the first guy to save a buck where I can you should also consider buying attachments as a “Package” made by the same manufacturer if possible. We know that as the example I have mentioned a bucket, rake, coupler and a thumb must all be made to be compatible with each other to achieve best fit and function. If you try to equip a machine with a brand “A” Thumb, brand “B” bucket and brand “C” coupler and who knows whose rake all will rely on each other for fit and function. I am being honest attachments makers are in competition with each other. We do not call each other and swap drawings and dimensions of our products no more than you call your competitor for input on bidding your jobs. Thus when all products show up for installation they probably will not match exactly and the cutting torch comes out. The result is the installation time is lengthened, the installation is compromised in efforts to get the job done and you are left with the effects. Also when warranty time comes and there is an issue you now have too many players in the picture claiming the cause is always the other manufacturers fault and not theirs. You and the dealer are stuck in the middle. So ideally buying bucket, coupler, rake, thumb from as few manufacturers as possible takes the finger pointing out to the equation. When it comes crunch time to pull out the checkbook do not waiver, it is not worth saving a few bucks to have those types of headaches and delays. You probably did not buy the cheapest machine on the market so why buy the cheapest attachments to work with it?
Finally to wrap this up. Observation #2 Finally to wrap this up. Observation #2, equipment dealers tend to focus on machine sales which = higher profit and commissions. The attachments to go on the machine many times are an afterthought or almost annoying detail to their higher dollar machine sales. Thus dealers tend to install particular attachments for reasons such as “That is what we always put on that model”, “that is what we had out back in stock”, and “my Brother In-Law knows a guy whose neighbor’s cousin builds these in his garage.” I am not knocking dealers and this does not mean your dealer is bad, just human. The rule of “The Path of Least Resistance” seems to apply. Keep in mind a number of OEM equipment brands have relationships with attachment makers as well as some OEM’s own attachment companies. Again this means there is pressure applied for the dealer to sell specific brands and types; these may not be the best for your needs. I recommend again, you do your research, call attachment manufactures directly if you have questions your dealer is not able to answer and insist that you are going to buy what is best for you. Hopefully you will buy from me but you may buy from my competitor, either way you will be better off in the long run. I hope this information helps in your future choice involving thumbs! Sorry to have been so long winded about the topic. Thanks all for your input on this forum, I look forward to learning more from you all in the future. Mr Mel
Welcome to the Forums Mr Mel!:drinkup Thank you for respecting the rules and atmosphere here on HEF. Glad to have you here.
Thanks for the info Mr Mel
What can I say Mr Mel...........you've said it all! That was good, simple and universal advice, thanks.
Great info there mr mel, i will drop you a pm sometime (when i got time to) with a few questions! Cheers CPS
Thanks for looking out for us. I appreciate you taking the time to write down your thoughts and tips. Good info. When I bought my machine I had no idea what a progressive link thumb was. The extra range of motion would be handy.
I think you ngot it sorted timmy, i think your machine with the thumb rake combo looks great and really useful:drinkup
Heres mine Heres a couple of pics of the thumb on my 016. It's not a fancy hydraulic job but works just as well. :tong The digger gets a rest and I get to stretch a bit when I get off to open it or pack it away. I designed and fabricated it for my 015 a few years ago and modified it for my new 016 that I got in December. rofessor The new design is stronger and packs away snug against the dipper so it doesn't get in the way at all. Makes handling rock, scrub/brush a breeze and works well in conjunction with my sieveing when used on demo/rubbish/building waste Everyone that I work for loves it. Makes the job much easier and quicker for me so I can get to the next one.:scool
YouTube - Demolition with a Hitachi FH130 Hey lads this is just the old hitachi leveling a farm house two weeks ago with the thumb...ignore the burning timber pile "nothing was being hauled out of the yard" so we just did what we were told
what do u all think of aim attachments hyd thumbs?
Hey tootallTimmy, I think what would work great would be welding tooth shanks on to your tines and then using a couple of worn down bucket teeth you could weld an old ditching bucket blade or grader blade across the teeth allowing you to remove it when you like. I like that brush rake you have, have you ever used it for doing demolition work? I'm working on an old three story wood frame building and all the brick has to be left behind as it's the backfill for the basement until the owners have enough money to dig a new basement for the new building. I've probably got a good week of loading out wood and related rubble and garbage. The rake would make it easier to separate out the brick.
And we'll also ignore the fact that the person with the camera was in the work area of the excavator.
I found this a little while ago this guy sells kits and plans for backhoe attachments and for mechanical and or hydraulic thumbs, probably be a not bad idea for the guys with mini excavators. http://www.cdp-backhoe.com/
My business manufactures manual and hydraulic thumbs. The hydraulic versions have there own base plate so do not use the machines pin which overcomes the problem of attaching buckets. http://www.rslengineering.co.uk/thumb-grabs-grapples-and-attachments/ . RSL is currently the largest supplier of thumb grabs in the uk. We do the muti tine wide thumb grab but we promote our single braced fork type as we believe it to be a lot stronger than wider versions without affecting the grab capability
New thumb
military?
Yes sir, its a 230LCRD
I'm amazed how many people put fixed thumbs on machines that are plumbed. Is it just a cost thing? I think the advantages of convenience and built in relief would far outweigh the slight increase in cost
military machinery seems to fascinate me very much for some reason.
It was a cost issue for us. The deere we have is not plumbed, so we went with a fixed thumb.
That's not your excavator then?
What's all the extra piping for?? Can't a thumb and a breaker be used on the same line or do they require different psi? Just curious
It belongs to the national Guard
The piping is for a rock drill