Does anybody know if there are any equipment makers who make machinery designed for countries that do not have any emmission laws, and just want something simple strong and reliable? No electronics, no carpet, no plastic, no load sensing hydraulics, no electric mirrors, no cup holders, just a real machine made for work. If there isn't, why not? Surely there would be huge markets for such a machine all over south east asia, south pacific, the sub continent, africa, south america, etc?
I am with ya, probably have to go back to the 80's machines to get something like you describe, kind of sad really, equipment has become an electronic nightmare of wires, sensors, connections and computers.
What type of machine are you talking about ? wheel loaders? bulldozers or just in general?
Wheel loaders, bulldozers, excavators, cranes, trucks, graders, and in general.
Add 4WD's to that list, PF. I dunno how you're supposed to buy a new 4WD, and then take it out bush - whereupon, ... 1. The Adaptive Automatic Mode .. 2. The Electronic Stability Program .. 3. The Grade Control Logic .. 4. The Smart Regenerative Charging .. 5. The Trailer Sway Control .. 6. The Adaptive Load Control .. 7. The Hill Descent Control .. 8. The Anti-Lock Brake System .. 9. The Emergency Brake Assist .. 10. The Electronic Brake Force Distribution, 11. The Electronically-Controlled Transfer Case .. 12. The Engine Torque Reduction Controls .. 13. The Brake Intervention Traction Control .. all proceed to crap themselves on a regular basis - and there's not a thing you can do to fix any of it - because you need a laptop, the ODB, the factory code book, and the factory service manuals - not to mention the box of electronic components, without which, nothing will work. If you think I've thought up all the above, I can assure you I have just lifted all these descriptive terms from the latest 4WD Ford Wildtrak brochure - branded as the "toughest truck in Australia ... " :throwup
i thought cat still made stuff for 3rd world country's etc
Well Graham, how come we have not managed to get any of these "Stuff" iron in the U.K. if thats the case???
the first lot we have not worn out the original stuff yet mate
from the cat site http://middleeast-africa.cat.com/cda/layout?m=308812&x=7 http://middleeast-africa.cat.com/cda/layout?m=308816&x=7 http://middleeast-africa.cat.com/cda/layout?m=422138&x=7
A lot of that CAT africa models and that are coming out of china a lot of there K model graders and things are getting made here.
Yair . . . I have been nerping on about this for some time. As mentioned there are folks here remanufacturing (for their own use) older excavators because they are not game to take newer units into remote areas. I think to some extent folks are accepting electronic engines for their fuel efficiency but most of the other stuff, pilot controls, electric over hydraulic, load sensing and all the other guff (as I see it) is to a large extent just there to make it easier on the operator and is just more "dumbing down" of the human race . . . to do anything properly is an aquired skill. A mate told me recently he had a "'dozer operator" quit after an hour on his stick shift D8 rake tractor because it was "hard on his knees and elbows with all those big pedals and levers and things." It's not funny but it makes you laugh. Cheers.
Dressta might come close to Plant Fitters question.I'm sure the equipment has some electronics on it.What I like about there dozers is the main frame, undercarriage, and final drives are built pretty mutch like the older machines.I also noticed they still use the torque converter / powershift style transmission and two speed steering like the old International dozers.I like the cummins engine as well. www.dressta.com.pl/machines/crawler-dozers/td-20m/
Yes, I think the 80's were about the peak of machinery design. Consider the Cat 950B loader. It is modern enough to have a much better designed loader frame than the original 950 that it replaced, but was made before they started ruining things with wires, complications, and plastic. Yes, 4WD's as well, farm tractors, grain headers, motor bikes, everything. I don't think many will be fooled by the Ford Wildtrak being branded as the "toughest truck in Australia" those that are fooled will probably be quite happy with it. With all that extra stuff, makes you think that nobody knows how to drive anymore. Everybody knows that Toyota Landcruiser is the toughest, although not as tough now since they have been forced to use an electronic engine to comply with emmissions. Yes these dozers look pretty good to me. Good to see that the 3306 is still alive. However, the other machines, loaders, excavators, etc in their line up don't look so simple. But at least somebody in the Cat system is still thinking along the right lines. The Cat K series graders are no doubt much better than the M series, but the C7 engine is hardly a good choice for somebody wanting a simple machine. I agree with most of your "nerping" about "all the other guff" Yes these look alright as a machine, however they have the electronic Cummins engines. Don't get me wrong, these Cummins electronic engines are ok, if you are in good operating conditions and have a dealer nearby, but not much good for remote harsh environments.
So with a lot of people getting dis-illusioned with the machinery from the major manufacturers, why doesn't somebody capitilise on it by building something that the market wants? If none of the manufacturers from the developed world are interested, then maybe the Chinese are our only hope? This is a sad state of affairs. If the Chinese concentrated on making something simple strong and reliable, and then actually supported it, they might have more chance of moving ahead in the industry. JGS I hope you are taking notice of this.
PF - I think it's because there isn't enough uproar about the unnecessary complexity and excessive electronics in modern machinery. The manufacturers spur each other on with "great advances in computerised design" - but no-one asks the customer if that's what they really want. The bottom line is that machinery and vehicle design is driven by a need to make it cheaper, make it more efficient, and make it more attractive as far as creature comforts go. Then there's the drive to meet ever-tighter safety and emission standards - along with reduced maintenance. So the designers start to concentrate on the household item design mantra - make components unrepairable, and reduce skills needed to replace them. They use electronics everywhere they can, because they're cheaper. Look at fly-by-wire controls. Why use a big expensive throttle cable, when a transducer and a wire does the same job! The end result is they are trying to produce items that require no skills whatsoever to drive or operate, and no skills to fix. All the skills and knowledge is retained with the manufacturer, so they can made lots of $$$'s out of keeping that knowledge. The biggest single hassle is that electronic and electrical components are the weak link in any modern machine. They die an electronic death, they don't wear out. A farmer mate had a '42 Chevy 1 ton truck for the farm runabout many years ago. One day, he was pumping water from a dam, into a tank on the truck, and the handbrake let go under load, and she rolled back into 12' of water! He just fetched his brother, a length of rope, and a tractor - and they duck-dived to the Chevy bumper and looped the rope around it. They pulled the old Chevy out, drained about 500 gallons of water out of the cabin, drained all the oils, removed the spark plugs and wound her over and pumped any water out - then they fired her up and went straight back to work! Could you imagine doing that with any modern vehicle/machine? They go under water, and they're an insurance write-off on the spot.
Dont worrie mate iam and we have actually decided to do away with nearly all the computers and everything we can we are actually sending some machines to russia this month to do some test runs up with in a russian open cut gold mine. just 950 size machines but it will be good feed back and them guys want the same something that is simple and tough nothing else. it will be interesting to see how they fair i will elt you guys know how they go if you are interested.
I suppose you are right, the manufacturers don't really want to listen to the owner operator and farmer types, they are more interested in selling 50 machines at a time to a mining company. The emission standards is also an issue, but I am also thinking along the lines of machinery designed to suit countries where there are no laws in place regarding that yet.
Yes I would be interested to know how they go. Surely it would be a lot cheaper to make a machine without all the gizmos? How much could be saved on the purchase price of a simple machine compared with a similar sized complicated one?
Mate well look at it this way right we can build a 966 size machine with a non electorinc ZF (german) transmission and ZF axles (german) non eletric cummins engine , parker hydraulics and build it like a brick **** house a fairly nice cab with a simple but well built pilot system or non pilot depending on the customers want and well we sell that machine to dealer for around 45-50,000 AUD now to be hounest we could build one with all the eletronic systems just like a CAT or something and it would end up costing us about 75-90,000AUD to build it so it is a lot cheaper to do it that way. But our biggest thing is you build something like a modern CAT you are asking yourself for trouble unless you have dealer support everywhere and to be frankly hounest we are a long ways of that so we are not trying to fool anyone we want to sell a machine that anyone can fix. one thing i think that the chinese have done wrong is missed this market frankly speaking they went both ways one they tryed to make them as cheap as possible and then the other they tryed to delope a machine to take on CAT and the other big mobs as they dont have the back up in place so it fails. So I think that we at JGS have a good chance of getting some of this market place. P.S sorry about the crap spelling guys never was my strong suit.
The countries that currently have no emission laws will gradually follow American/British/European/Australian emission laws, and introduce tighter controls. There are virtually no manufacturers that I know of, apart from Lombardini, who do not use computerisation as part of their engine controls. Lombardini reckon that they can continue to produce engines that meet current emissions specifications, without resorting to computerisation - but they are concerned that future emissions ratings such as Euro 6 may make it impossible for them to produce engines without resorting to computerisation. I don't have a problem with computerisation of controls - provided it is made ROBUSTLY - is basically simple - and the design and repair info is made readily available, instead of being a manufacturers secret. The problem we have, is electronics that are nowhere near robust enough to withstand the heat, dust, vibration, and often corrosive atmospheres that machinery works in - such as nickel dust, salt air, salt water dust suppression, ironstone gravel dust. The designers often install multiple ECU's/microprocessors, where failure of one ECU affects the operation of other ECU's/microprocessors. Then there's the hassle of inadequately-protected wiring harnesses and connectors. Connectors get dust and moisture in them, and they immediately develop resistance. Resistance means voltage fluctuations - and electronics nearly always operate on narrow voltage parameters, so your machine stops when that parameter is exceeded or not met. Vibration and heat are killers of electronics. But designers don't take into account that machinery works in heat that is often way above their design figures. Likewise with vibration, they don't consider the effects of vibration on delicate wafers of silicon, over an extended period of time. Then there's the "secret knowledge" related to computerised operation. Manufacturers refuse to release info on exactly how their ECU's/sensors/microprocessors all work. They claim it's "proprietary information" - i.e., they need to keep the info secret, because they have spent all this money researching and designing, and don't want anyone stealing their ideas. This is hogwash, and it was proven so, in a recent court judgement. The lawsuit related to smash repair operators in the U.S. complaining that they couldn't get repair info, such as ECU codes, security methods, service information, design principles, and other vital info that was needed for them to undertake smash repair on damaged vehicles. It came back to the stupidity that a vehicle undergoing smash repair, had to be taken from the smash repair shop, to a vehicle dealership, anytime an electronic component had to removed, replaced, or otherwise worked on, in the course of smash repair. The smash repair shops took the manufacturers to court, and the smash repair shops won, and the manufacturers (in the U.S., anyway) now have to release technical electronic repair info to qualified smash repairers. The indications that electronics are reaching complexity that even manufacturers are struggling to come to terms with, is typified by a nephews purchase of new Cat 14M grader a little over 18mths ago. This nephew runs about 65 items of plant - mostly dozers, some loaders, some water trucks, several graders, and a number of other items. All the heavy plant is Cat, and he buys it all new. Most of it is out on long-term "dry hire". He forked out $750,000 for this new 14M, and drove it himself for a few weeks to get a feel for it. Within a couple of weeks, the grader wouldn't go over 9kmh, no matter what he tried. He called the dealer in (Westrac) and they pored over it for 3 weeks. No-one could find what was wrong, despite some of the brightest Cat brains in the West applying themselves to finding the source of the problem. Westrac ended up calling in a specialist, top Cat man from the States, one of their experts in electronics. He spent several days on the 14M and found the problem was in the ECU programming, where multiple ECU's had to "talk" to each other. This wasn't happening, and the Cat man had to engineer modifications to the ECU programming to ensure that the ECU's could talk to each other under various electronic scenarios. The problem was fixed eventually - but the nephew was P.O'ed that he paid 3/4 Million for a brand new, latest-technology machine, that still had serious bugs in the design, caused by excessive electronic complexity.
Yair . . . I hear you OzDozer . On a much smaller scale but just as annoying (for us) I have an intermittant problem with a new thirty six grand John Deere mower on a golf course . . . why the hell would you have proximity switches and electric/hydraulic systems on a little jigger like that? Cheers.
So you have to take it to the dealer for every issue it has to get it fixed so they make more money and buy more machines from the manufacture.
Yair . . . . The problem is the dealer would rather not know about it. The machine is over two hours from their shop and apparently Deere doesn't cover their travel time. The problem is the fault is intermittent . . . the thing works fine and then it doesn't . . .untill it comes good after flicking the toggle several times . . . or putting the PTO in and out. No ryhm or reason and I can't isolate the function that is failing. All the control valves are electric and test out okay when they get here. I feel a propper D****head when they get here and it works. I'm bloody annoyed the committee bought this machine as I could see the potential for problems . . . Jacobsen still make a basic mower that hasn't changed (except for the engine) in over thirty years. Thats the sort of equipment you need in isolated areas. Cheers.
I am with ya there mate i know how you feel about a problem that comes and goes had one with a ZF gear box in one of my machines every now and then there would be a few second delay in changing into reverse every time the guy from ZF showed up it was fine for him , bloody thing well in the end cracked the sads told them to bring me a new one lucky they did. Well iam with you on the basic machines as frankly speaking not everyone wants to run a machine in a mine or something where they are crunching the numbers on everything. but as you said earlyer the thing is none of the major companys want to sell machinery to old mate out in the sticks they want to sell a whole heap of them to a mining company or a big civil company. typical if you ask me of big business. and by the way you are up early mate.
Yair . . . JGS Parts LOL I'm writting a novel mate, get up about three most mornings and get my HEF fix and then get to work. Cheers.
Scrub Puller, that's a classic electronic fault, and it's usually caused by a faulty piece of hardware (a damaged silicon chip in the microprocessor, or some other electronic component such as a transistor, diode, or capacitor). These faults are intermittent and usually occur when the machine is at operating temperature. When it cools, they'll work again. Sometimes it will be voltage related, when the voltage drops a little, they stop working. I recall a mate who had a tilt-tray truck, telling me that the engine ECU in Falcons packs it in regularly. The car just stops and won't go again, of course. The owner rings for a tilt tray, and the mate said they learnt NEVER to attempt to start the Falcon when they got to the job. The reason being, the ECU nearly always commenced to work again, when the car cooled down - and if the tilt tray man tried to start the car - and it started - the car owner would just say, "Thanks! - I don't need you now!" - and just drive off!! So they'd lose the tow job! He said they always carefully winched the Falcon on - and then drove it off, when they got it to where the owner wanted it! LOL
Hey mate whats your novel about if you dont mind me asking?
I see the problem of over complicated unreliable machinery as the fruition of our own efforts to get our childern college educations. Were looking at the result of 2000 years of striving for the utopia of no work, stress or effort required. The universities and colleges dont teach values of effort and reward, (ECUs are easier to work levers) they show our kids short cuts, and easy money ways of academics, bankers, speculators and governments ( its more profitable to make ECUs than levers because we dont sell replacement levers, we dont fix levers, levers dont need up grades, once you sell a lever thats it). The educated engineers, lawyers, accountants and their employers have learned there is more money in manufacturing gear that has only one service life, that only their people can fix. They have used their education to convince governments the only way forward is to help them maintain this techno wisardry. They know we will eat fast food even though it is rubbish because it is conveinient and acessessable just like new gismo machinery. I think we're screwed, best we head for the used lots and scrap yards and start recycling.
Showpony mate i agree with you 10000% everyone just wants an office job and make big dollars for doing nothing and they just want to sell you things now when it breaks they can charge you an arm and a leg , gotta make everything disposable now
Yair . . . JGS Parts Don't mind at all mate . . . but it's probly not going to do my reputation much good around these parts. LOL It's a gentle little love story about a truckie/rodeo rider who gets involved with some very interesting women. Cheers.
Does he also get involved with some scrub clearing or dam sinking?
Yair . . . Plant Fitter. LOL. Not so much in this one mate . . . just a few oil-rig shifts mentioned. Next storys a "truck'in in the 'sixty's" tale about hauling gear in to a hypothetical mine half way up Cape York. Cheers.
Keep us up to date with both.
Sounds like a Mills and Boon type thing, will there be ahhh 'romantic scenes'?
Yair . . . Hendrik Yup . . . very discrete though. LOL Cheers.
Ya know Scrub, I think the title of this thread sounds like a good title for your novel, but if you use it, you'll have to pay me and Plant Fitter, him for originating it, and me for the idea of using it. Send me your agent's contact info and I'll have my lawyer get in touch to start negotiating the royalty agreement.