is there anyone here who spent years of their lives running manual hand and foot controls/manual hand controls (wheeled skid steer) who has switched to electric joysticks and loves them?? because i have not been able to find anyone yet.
I started on an 1845C and have never been able to get the hang of the foot controls but either the Cat or Case style controls for me are fine. As for electric, not sure but there are still other options. Get use to the Cat style would be my best advice.
Because I am an owner operator as well as a service tech I have a two sided opinion. I do prefer most of the hands only controls when they work as they should. I will not buy a machine that has electric hand controls because they are a pain in the pocket book. Each machine is a little different and you have to get use to each one. When I was a novice I can remember blaming the equipment for my short comings but as an experienced operator I can make almost any ole piece of junk dance. If I were strictly an operator with no idea of cost or upkeep I would defenitely want the hand controls.
I have been running Bobcats with foot controls for 8 years now. My 205 and 185 both have the optional hand controls. I've tried switching just for the Hell of it and I don't like hand controls at all. At least not Bobcat hand controls. Your feet aren't doing anything anyway.
Have you ever seen a surgeon operate with his feet? LOL!
hand versus foot i grew up on bobcats with foot control, had a couple new hollands with foot controls. then we bought our first s300 and i ordered the optional hand controls as well. never really ran them much. then we got a s250 same thing. i started running the hand controls and it has been over 6 or seven years. we do still have a few operaters that run the foot controls. i could never see going back. the bobcats are electric .. just like joysticks in a hoe.. awesome
colorado digger. you machines have sjc and not ahc right? where there is no foot control option. which pattern do you run iso or h? it seems like iso just works better than h if u got electric joysticks.
controls we have foot or hand. it is the case style.. one side is boom up/down-left. the other side is bucket-basic
ah. em kay. still looking for someone to give me an enthusiastic YES! joysticks are the only way to go... but it still has to be someone who grew up on the old school stuff. i did see someone on another forum who said they were impressed with the new jcb controls; i have not driven one yet.
I grew up running Bobcat hand/foot controls, and after about 15yrs, my last 2 machines have had the joysticks. Though I still like the hand/foot controls, and wouldnt turn a good deal down on a machine with them, I prefer the joysticks. After a 10 or 12 hr day, is when you really appreciate the joystick controls.
ic. woud you say you lose a little capability?
i started with foot controls ran them for about 5 yrs and always knew there had to be a better way especially for anything other than simply loading a truck thrn got a case 1845c and loved it much better for fine grade work and was a much operater in 1 week than 5 years on the bobcat then one day it broke down and had to borrow a cat 236b from a nother contractor on the job i hated it at first but my guys loved it .one guy who had no skidsteer exp was the first to master it had to be pulled off the dozer for the rest of the week probably because he wasnt used to anything .now we own one and a crazy as it sounds i bought a cat so my best operater can smoke and work easier it took me about a week of hell but i got and now think without a doubt its the best
I've ran Bobcats with hand-foot controls for almost 25 years now..... Over the past 2 years I've ran a NH C185 a little. The controls operate well, but I still have to think about every move I make. My biggest complaint with the NH is the foot controlled auxillary hydraulics, what idiot thought that up? If you really want a challenge, go from a hand/foot Bobcat to a crawler loader with foot steering! Ed
Ah, like boxers or briefs. I learned on a cat, and only own cat, except bobcat mini ex. I am actually thinking about going to bobcat hand foot from joysticks. I have noticed that with bobcat controls, its eaiser to keep straight when cold planning, and the excellerate faster when trying to scoop that last bit of rubble off the asphalt. And i have a friend who doesnt own a grease gun or have an employee who cares about anything, and he had 12 bobcats and never had a mechanical issue. I told him to get with it an start buying cat, cat courted him and he bought a skid and mini ex. the skid had lost a motor at 500hrs and he ended up dumping both. Lastly, Cat parts are expensive and service expensive. Yet I still only use cat, i guess i wish i would have learned hand foot controls and stuck with them.
I don't get much of a chance to run anything with hand controls, unless we rent an excavator. I can run operate the heck out my Bobcat 773 with grapple bucket or 4 in 1, and I "like" the foot pedals because I'm used to 'em. But run the machine hard 6+ machine hours day after day. . . is a physical workout. There is no question that for those who run the machines hours at a time, day after day, the hand controls are by far easier on the operators physically. Which pattern? I'm not the one to say. . . Yes, KSSS, when we do oral surgery or restore teeth, there is always at least one device that we control with a foot pedal at the same time we are using all three eyes and hands. All day long. Why Bobcat doesn't have a third lever baffles me.:beatsme
Well thats not the same Doc. I have had hand control machines with the aux. pedal on the floor which I liked fine but its not actuallly running the machine. I was refering to actually doing the work with your feet. If you start doing doing oral surgery with your feet, I think you had better start putting out more fliers for dirt work!
I grew up on hand feet, and then we switched to all hand contols on our mustangs. We are debating right now if we trade to go all jsc or servo t-bar. Our current 2076 has a combination, with jsc on bucket and t-bar on drive. We do notice that the joystick is not as responsive when it is cold out and the machine is not warmed up. Whatever we do it will be all hand control, less wear and tear on your body for sure. I personally would not consider a hand foot machine.
Ive been runnin skid loaders scince i was old enough to climb in it myself, and learned on the foot controls and ran them that way for about 10-12 years till they came out with the hand controls. I like the "cat/bobcat" style hand contols, and think that them and the foot controls are about the same...atleast to me. The one ive hated scince i had to run one on a job for a couple months..."case"... dont understand why they set them up that way, mabye some of u like the controls but not me. I got used to them after a day or two, but just didnt feel like i was as effcient as i could be in one of the others... my .02
hmm, it seems to me that people prefer the pilot controls, but not so much the e/h controls. i will prolly go with pilot controls, hopefully not regret it. it looks like the only guys making pilot any more is small frame cat, and jcb for one year yet. could prolly find a new pilot series 3 case still.
Not sure what CASE you were running but pilots have been available since the last half of 06. They used the Rexroth control system. Same oem that CAT uses. The CASE meters flow better in my opinion but they are essentially the same.
. . . OK, KSSS. You know I love that aux hyd control switch with my right thumb. I even ordered my JD 5425 ag tractor w/ the thumbswitch for the #3 mid-valve, so I can run my grapple, auger, or anything else w/ my thumb--had to argue w/my dealer, he didn't understand why I wanted that. I also pull that line and connect a hose running from the mid-valve to a quick coupler on the rear of the tractor, and use my thumb to raise/lower the height of my Woods BW180 batwing, too. The two levers control the R & L mower decks, the thumb the height. But no pedals to hunt for. :usa
Like I've said, my 773G is perfect for my particular needs and budget. I wouldn't swap it and $ 500 to get hand controls or anything else. But if I were thinking of dropping $ 30-40k on a machine to use all-day, every day, hand foot would not even get a look. If buying a used machine for part-time use ( "side jobs") hand/foot would be fine--by the best machine you find with the lowest hours. Regarding hand/foot operator fatigue, I think that a certain amount of that can be reduced by keeping the debris out of the mechanical linkage pivots, and keeping the bushings in the pivots working. My left pedal sticks--probably the center pivot bushing. I'm sure a PITA to get to. As for who has the best hand controls, I'd be curious if anyone has run the new Bobcat M-series enough to comment?
i put tons of hours on 1845c's. then, a bobcrap 864. i have run most brands of skiddys and really prefer the cat's joysticks.
Didnt know case had the pilot option, dont deal with case on a daily bases or usually ever but the case controls i was talking of were, the left and right hand sticks pushed foward = you travel foward, pull back = travel back, left hand side to side = bucket? (i think), right hand side to side = boom? (i think). Just dont like that set up, and took a little while to get used to. (I dont like JD backhoe controls either). All about preference.
"O-K" ..... here is your deffinate "YES" ..... I started out with a hybrid JD/NH 8875 .... it had the foot controls/hand for travel & right wrist for the aux control What a joke that was, especially when I had been an excavator guy for many years till then .......... BUT as anything you can/will get used to it, which I did ! ..... and got pretty damn efficient too ..... probably one of the best (patting myself on the back ...LOL) ..... had the finess down pat, as many contractors told me. BUT if it hadn't been that the 8875 wasn't such a POS, and mechanical nightmare, best part was the motor f/JD, and that's where the buck stopped ! I probably would still own it. So, we traded it for the '07 BC A-300, Full meal deal, every trick in the book as an option on it. "I TOTALLY LUV THAT MACHINE" with the electric hand controls, and variable foot throttle, and all of the electric joy stick buttons for all the aux controls as well. But I will admit that it took exactly 51-hrs to get so I did not have to think about my actions, sort of as any real operator will tell you, it becomes second nature. The hardest part coming from an excavator pilot hand control, where you can FEEL engagement to the electric controls was having to compensate for a very slight delay in resonding time to the ground. But after a while you will find that the delay only happens when you are just over idle speed, eg: when you are inching or for those that don't understand that phrase, creeping up to something. the higher the rpm the easier it gets, the drift dissapears, don't ask me why, it don't matter it just happens ! With this style of controls there is "ABSOLUTELY" no operator fatigue. This winter alone I put in quite a few 18-30 hrs straight in snow events, I think the longest was 38hrs ...... at the end of that my 50+ yr old body only lost eye balls and not hand/wrists, or legs n/feet .... trust me it happened in the hand/foot stuff in the old school machine, even in the excavator in long durations you'd have to stop cause parts of the body start to disapear, get out and go for a power walk and start all over again ! So, you got your quote of somebody that will never go back, staying where he's at ! Ps. ...... I am not saying that other machines with pilots are bad/good/better, its kinda like the other threads (excavators) of the age old pissing match " JD/ISO vs CAT/SAE " control paterns ..... which we're not going there now or again ! I know what works for me, same for other ...... stick with what makes you comfortable ............. Cheers ! :drinkup
i AM impressed someone likes especially the bobcat e h joysticks. heard a lot of people complain about those. my next machine will have joysticks. ideally i would go with one of these... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX02HXHzELg but i dont think i could make it work on the operation as a replacement for a skid steer. but i hear thats what people are doing.
I ran a Bobcat for the first couple years, and have since grown to strongly like the joysticks. Especially after getting thrown back in one for a day because my regular machine (Takeuchi) was down with hydraulic issues. SAE pattern FTW...
I meant to add, the Bobcat was a foot-controlled bucket...
Just like everyone else I've got 25+ years on hand/foot controls, I do run the joystick controls from time to time and they are nice and for a rookie to think they are a bigtime operator and go out and buy a bobcat. My main problem with the joystick controls is the lose of pushing power. With hand/foot I can control how much torque I put to each side, so when side loading one corner I can control that side of the wheels/tracks. My other complaint is the extra cost of the joysticks and mainly the maintance of them I've heard alot people talking about dirt and dust getting in the controls and causing problems. I don't like the lag time of some of them and some seem more sensitive but thats all in the brand of the machine.
Hand/Foot controls vs. Hand controls I grew up as a kid running Dad's old John Deere Skidsteer with the conventional hand foot controls and later ended up running the skid-steers extensively in my city for a local excavation company before going on my own. After spending nearly 7000 hours in their CAT skid steers I've grown very comfortable with the Cat ISO controls. Granted some of the old school guys still very much like the hand foot combo. I now have a 2010 2 speed S300 Bobcat with ISO and H controls electronic and the H controls barnone SUCK. The older machines up till then that ran like the Case controls where you still used your left and right bar for drive are far easier to control than the dinky electronic motion you get with the stationey joystick while in H control setting. Luckily I have the ISO feature on the machine; good controls to learn because they follow the same general controls as excavators when you move up in the world of equipment. So whether you're on here as an owner or operator or both I think most would agree with me that the ISO controls will not only make it easier for finess work, but will also give you an edge when you tackle some bigger equipment in particular excavators. My only reservation on the 300 is that it doesn't have a cup holder.
I've run one of those machines in 2007 Dave, they're an exellent machine if you use them for what they're designed for essentially, fork lifting. Otherwise they have quite a bit of get up and go as far as drive but the hydraulics are painfully slow in comparison to any skid steer you put it beside. This machine is ideal for very established outfits looking for a more versative fork lift working on hard surface. What are you hoping to use it for?
I sarted with an International with hand and foot controls. Then to a Case with just hand controls, it took a long time to not be moving my feet. I am on my third Case and it has joysticks. The first time I ran it was loading it onto a gooseneck. Backing on it I thought this was the dumbest thing I ever bought, had to finally take the hand off the bucket control. When I was backing up that hand would be raising the bucket. Now after a couple years I wouldn't have one with the old controls. I plow snow and can drive with one hand, and have a drink in the other and can even plow snow while on the phone, if I forget my headset. I do find it easy to spin the wheels in soft dirt, as you don't feel the control pressure very easy. Oh it has a cup holder too!
well i called the jcb dealer to get a price on a skid steer. it seemed that they were really pushing this mini telehandler. the benefits would be the smooth ride, more lift capacity, more lift height, nicer cab than most skid steers, VERY low fuel consumption in most conditions, and significantly less tire wear. they said it is a ground engaging machine which i believe means u can dig in the dirt with it if u want. it did look like their hydraulics were slow especially in the video i posted for "stacking snow." yes maybe if thats all you have to do all day. as far as telescoping, you would clearly just operate the machine with the boom partially extended all the time. cuz who has time to telescope every scoop. one of those machines would never replace our skid steer but they probably would be nice to have around i would imagine. sounded like all loaded down they were around 50k. lift capacity i think of 4,000ish pounds maybe. sounded like the price on the jcb260 skid steer was around 43k with most options.
I grew up with foot controls and never thought I could do hand controls. Now I sell John Deere and I have spent some time with the hand controls and think they are way nicer and easier on the shins. The controls are almost effortlessly and the I think the trick is to barely grab the controls, the lighter grip doesn't shake you as much as you hit bumps.
any feedback on a new holland superboom any good?
compared to all other skid steers, i would say the new holland super boom is the weakest. it will be fine if you dont push it too hard.
as far as skid steer controls go. im the lone ranger in the farming community who wants something other than hand/foot. quote from the neighbor on a skid steer with joysticks..."what kind of african thing is this?" hahaha. bobcat has had success with their bogus controls because people are creatures of habit. ...and their controls are good, as long as you want to run them all day.
I got a 1080B with a tree shear on it it would be allrigth if the controls for loader was hand control instead of foot control a day of running it with your feet and hands it wear you out
I ran joy sticks and foot controls for almost 20 yrs and then we just bought a new case 420ct track with joy sticks. I can honestly say the joy sticks save on your feet and knees after a long snow removal event, but it took some time to re learn loading trucks efficiently as the sensetivity on a joy stick drive is more jerky. You just can't counter rotate the same as stick controls though. I'm sticking with the new system now.
I changed mine from foot pedals to hand ? Joystick control and really do get more work done and less fatigue.
I really don't like the foot control units. Joysticks are way nicer
Im thinking of buying a new Terex with the pilot controls. Being able to operate the machine and talk on the phone At the same time sounds cool.haha
The only problem I have now (ok I have a lot) but when I get in the excavator after running the skidsteer. Shoving that lever forward when you want to travel sure makes things you don't want to happen, happen fast. The joy sticks are less tiring, that is for sure. Seems a little easier to spin your wheels as there isn't the pressure of moving the old levers.
I have run the bobcat foot-hand controls for about 8 years now. I learned on a 246 cat and it was hell trying to learn to run the foot controls. Tried the bobcat hand controls and they were worse. Bought a S250 for snowplowing last winter with the switch option for hand-foot or hand controls. Would be a lot more comfortable plowing snow using just the hand controls but I gave up trying after a while. Too frustrating
there is nothing more frustrating than learning new controls. i was driving a mini excavator the other day for the first time. i can run the backhoe attachment on the skid steer while sleeping, but dam it was frustrating trying to run the mini.
Switch the pattern selector.
well this is a backhoe that just attaches right to the skid steer and you use the boom and bucket tilt to help you dig (only has 1 cylinder on it). i love it and it really comes in handy. so i dont think switching the selector would help me cuz i got a different animal than an excavator.
Dave I always ask my customers to try and put at least fifty hrs. on a machine with electric joysticks. What I find is that about 75% say that after doing this they wouldn't go back to the old style. Alot of guys find that from going from excavators or backhoes with joystick controls it is fairly a good transition. I say give it some time and if you still don't like it stay with what works.
I have not operated the old control type more than a few hours here and there, years ago and in a non-professional environment...so I can't really compare the two. But I practically grew up with joysticks in my hands, perfecting my stormy-night carrier landing in a flight-simulator game or shooting down those pesky purple aliens in space dogfights over the moons of Arcturus-4. Not that I'm trying to claim that hours playing videogames somehow translates into operating experience, hehe. I have a lot to learn, and don't ever expect to stop learning no matter how much seat-time I rack up. But the joystick interface is something I'm very comfortable and familiar with--not just with using, but also in fine-tuning my control of it (takes a lot of fine-tuning and practice to make those dang carrier landings).
Can the dealer do a switch from the foot controls to just hand??.......My Knees are just shot after 9 yrs on my NH 150
the only bobcat that I have ran with the dual patterns was a real pain. With the normal size levers, then the joysticks on the levers. It made the joystick feel like they were at ear level , very uncomfortable to run with the joysticks in a bobcat, unless they have changed that design, I ran it with foot and hand controls, Maybe like ape hangers on a chopper I'm all about just wiggling a stick around, instead of moving hands and feet.
I'm partial to joystick hand controls on a skid steer/CTL due to the fact that I don't spend lots of hours on these units. I do spend a lot of time on a tractor/loader (skip loader), small wheel loader, small hystat dozer with 6 way blade and farm tractor. What I like is that my right hand is controlling my implement group, my left hand controls direction and steering and my righ foot controls engine speed. As I move from one machine to the next, similarity makes operation intuitive. Even on an excavator, my hands are working and not my feet. Granted, guys who run hand/foot controls all the time make it look easy but for me it is an accident waiting to happen and I am very slow and jerky. Also, hydraulic pilot operated controls (Kubota & Takaeuchi) are smoother and more responsive than electrically operated joysticks in that they don't have the split -second time lag. The only benefit of electric joysticks is the switchable control pattern.
Reading through this, I am wondering whether the original question was relating to foot/hand versus pilot (electric or not) control, or specifically only about electric over hydraulic systems. I personally can't see the advantages of electric over the cable systems. I have never used an electric system but others have said that there is a lag and not the same feel. Also having electrics in a machine that operates in relatively harsh conditions is potentially a problem, the joystick pushing on a cable system seems much simpler and thus more reliable. Anyway I had a bit of a go on a foot/hand control skid steer when my positrack decided to stop working, hated it. Particularly as your feet/legs are always in the same spot and you can't move them around, you can't use your feet to steady yourself as well when going over rough spots and twisting your body around to look over your shoulder when reversing is more difficult.
Igrew up on newholland so foot controlls.Irented a cat with joy stick was not bad.
I think it just takes time in the seat!
New to forum and trying to get in some replies so that i can ask some ?,, anyhow i am looking at a case 1840 and also a 430... Are these control set ups good for beginners??
I want to install a starter disable system in a A220 Bob Cat and need a wiring color guide. Can anyone help?
I'm looking @ a 2007 317 Deere with the hand controls...have you had much interaction with these? I've only ran Skids with hand/foot controls but heard this was easier on the joints.
That's the tricky part, getting time in the machine. I have only used hand controls once, and they were not electric. Not sure how someone with hand/foot control machines can get time in another type. I have even thought of offering my time in exchange for practice on one of those machines. No luck so far.
Started Years Ago With Case 1840 With Case Hand Controls. Have Had Numerous Case Machines And 1 Bobcat . Currently We Have A Case 450 Series 3 With Case Hand Controls , Cat 279C & Cat 262C With Cat Controls. All & All We Like Cat iso The Best . Never Liked Foot Controls !
We had one of the first Bobcats in my area 1972 think it was a 610 My current machine is a S185, want to upgrade to a CTL. Loaded my truck with a 590 bobcat that was on the job - joy sticks. Hated it. Trying to shake dirt out of bucket terrible Can you get the old style foot control anymore?? Electric over hydraulic sucks
I am not a professional and do not operate my machine all day every day, so productivity is not a big determining factor for me. I am the owner of the machine, so there was no way I was going to buy a unit with hand controls for the simple fact that they can be a nightmare to keep them functioning. Yes, I am aware that I still have hand controls for auxiliary functions. The foot controls on my unit are old school, but very simple in design and function. Very easy to work on. For the same reasons I try to stay away from diesel systems running def and/or exhaust particulate filters. For me it is simpler to buy old and rebuild if necessary. At work our trucks are newer diesels and we have nothing but heartaches and grief with the emission systems.
Using a BC 590 as benchmark for forming an opinion on EH is like saying all skid steers are junk because the 751 I ran has no power. I have run newer BC and CATs as well as the Case machines that I own and while they all have their own feel, they all work very well. You can snap the bucket every bit as effectively as a mechanical machine without the effort. Case/NH offer mechanical hand/foot. Deere offers it but it is EH not mechanical. CAT offers hand/foot but I am not sure if it is mechanical or EH. There are others as well. I am not sure what the take rate is on that option, my guess would be very low and likely becomes less and less as more of the hand/foot guys fade out. Certainly there is more to go wrong with EH, but the initial issues have largely been worked out. The ability to switch patterns, adjust sensitivity and speed of controls and requiring much less input effort make EH a much better solution for operators. Pilots are a close second, they offer low effort, less electrical reliance but you cant easily switch patterns (in SSL and CTL's) and cant easily adjust speed and sensitivity. Mechanical/servo controls have a place, they are cheaper and caveman simple. So for some users they make sense. However if you use a SSL every day and make your money with one, the advantages of EH/Pilot make up for the few drawbacks. As for DEF, I wish it wasn't necessary, and by necessary I mean that EPA didn't mandate Tier 4 Final. Since they have and DEF is the world we live at least for now, we have to deal with it. Some OEM's are having better luck than others, but teaching your people how to run and care for them is not on the OEM and falls back to the buyer. There is a lot a buyer can do to make the operation of DEF machines more reliable. If you run a Tier 4 Final machine like a Tier 3 machine, your likely to be disappointed.
I didn't have years and years with hand/foot, maybe 4-5 years before getting to try out pilot controls. After half a day they became my preference. I had been running the mini-ex for just as long though, so the concept was already wired in. Way less operator fatigue with pilot controls.
I only have about 450 hours skid steer time, but I learned on hand foot controls and hate them. You get thrown about in a skid steer so much and I find my feet are for bracing myself. I like the pilot controls on my last 2 Cats, a 236B and a 246, although there are more places for hydraulic to leak out and it seems a little counter-intuitive when backing up. I've never tried Case controls but I think I would like them very much, simple without having to use feet.