Hey Fellas, I'm going to be purchasing a skidsteer within the next few months for a few residential home projects. It will be a mid-sized machine, in the 6000-8000 lb. range, for general use. I have four different dealers in my area, so I would like to limit the number of company options to those, for ease in getting parts and service. They are: Caterpillar Case John Deere Bobcat I'd like to hear feedback on models and manufactures as to likes, dislikes, performance, reliability, etc. and so on. I will thank any and all, in advance, for your help and input. Have a great day, and enjoy the holiday weekend. All The Best !! Tom
Tires or ctl?
Hey Fickster, I was kinda leaning towards rubber tracks, unless you think that's a bad idea.
There's pros n cons, I been leaning very hard on rubber tracks for lot of dirt work, extreme lifting and pushing. I'm running at bobcat T-300 right now with foot/hand control h pattern. It runs great loud as hell only thing I don't like it is bc the stiff drive control the steeper the hill is the harder you have to push. Ran a tire cat. They alright just freaking expensive and extremely high. I love older models case. Good machines in my opnion love their controls. Unfortunate case and new holland are just bout the same machine now. I been been looking at John Deere 333D they are big and feels Like there a beast and will admit they have electrical problems Here n there. I chose Deere bc dealer service are located everywhere and bobcat is like 2 hour drive from me also I travel a lot as a metal fence welder and installing waterline and building fence just agriculture related jobs
Today I would lean towards a tracked machine for a few reasons and I have 100's of hours on both. Tracked machines are a smooth ride compaired to rubber tire, Tracks only have a 4 PSI foot print compared to skid steer of 12 psi. Example: The heel of your foot is 8-9 psi. The advantag is less ground pressure in wet conditions not leaving deep ruts and tearing up the soil under you. The smooth ride comes from the long length of the track making contact with the ground less up and down motion when trying to cut a grade. Many skidsteer operators would argue that point but many of the good operators in skidsteers with 1000's of hours of operation don't always give change a chance. I know many operators that once they tried a Rubber track loader for a few days never went back to a skidsteer. As far as brand? Takeuchi was the leader for several years from the early 90's to around 2008+ but competition caught up with them. Bobcat units to stay away from is the older 864. A terrible undercarriage. Another bad under carriage is the ASV / Cat track loader. Asv sold to Cat and Cat put there cab on the ASV undrcarriage which came a from a design by polaris . Great for snow but not the harsh conditions of sand and gravel, wears very quickly. Now both of these brands have made big strides in the last few years and have gotten better, especially Bobcat with the T190, 250 and 300 models. Cat a little more needs to be done, Besides the new models are very expensive. I your looking for a good 1 year project machine for building a home stick with Deere or Takeuchi in the years from 2002 to 2006 for best value You may pick one up for $8,000 - 14,000. Make sure track condition is decent. they run anywhere from $2,000-$4,000 for a pair. My years of experience tell me they you can get 600-1500 hours out of a set depending on conditions they are used in. As far as parts Deere, Takeuchi, Bobcat etc can also be purchased at any of the big rental stores (also a good used Track loader) such as Hertz Equipment Rental, United/RSC , Sunbelt etc. Good luck with your project iges
iges...welcome to the forum. You make some good points, but a few of your facts are incorrect. Actual ground pressure of a skid steer is higher than 12 psi. Just calculate the total tire surface that contacts the ground and divide that into the machine's operating weight and I think you'll find that it quite a bit higher than the number you quote. Additionally, Takeuchi has never been #1 in the industry, even when it was just ASV and Takeuchi selling them in the mid/late 90s. Bobcat almost instantly became #1 when they introduced the 864 (you are correct that it had many problems). I know this because I sold Bobcat for 8 years and still look at industry data on a regular basis. An interesting fact is that virtually 50% of all the US CTL field population is riding on ASV technology, whether CAT or ASV. It is also true that this percentage has gradually decreased as others such as Deere, CNH, Gehl/Mustang, etc. have entered the market, particularly since more competitors have entered the market as the market growth has slowed due to economic conditions and long standing market opportunity sizes in certain geographies. The fact that ASV (now Terex) has been selling their machines and undercarriages for over 28 years should speak more about it's capability and longevity than our opinions on a message board.
I am really liking the Alpha series CASE machines. I demoed the CAT 279 against the CASE TR320 (these are CTL's). Although both excel in different areas, the CASE was clearly a better buy. After 300 hours so far, I am still very happy with the decision.
Hey ksss. Just a question did you like the older model case better than new ones?
IMHO for a homeowner type machine, low maint, and no real "problems" are what you are looking for. most of the tracked machines are gonna be larger and heavier than you want. ones that are affordable are gonna be older bobcat 864 and t200 models, both with their share of issues. early t190s were slightly underpowered. i'd recommend a g series 763/773 or s175/185 stay away from keyless panels, AHC/ACS (selectable hand/foot control) those options are "nice", but can get very expensive to repair (keyless panel $900 + acuators $700+) just my $0.02 :drinkup
I only have experience with the older Case machines. I have put a couple hundred hours on the 1840, which I found to be a bit under powered. So far, the 1845C has been just right for my purposes since the attachments fit both machines and it has more power to accommodate my needs. The Case dealer that I use spoke highly of my 1845C. I bought this at the point where the housing market was about to tank. The custom home builder that I got it from only charged me $12,500 including the D125 backhoe attachment. He saw the housing bust coming and wanted to move it quickly. I hope this is helpful
I have owned 6 1840's over the years all but one was bought new. Its hard to beat the reliability of the 1800 series. However I have never looked back. Everything we do involves being productive (like most other dirt contractors), and the newer machines have been more productive, much more. There are more sensors to malfunction and they do, but even still we get a lot more done with the newer machines. The 1800 series is as simple as a hammer and the Alphas are a lap top and every series in between is a progression from the hammer. I remember getting my first 70XT after trading in my last 1840 (the two dont really compare on paper). I was blown away by the increase in productivity, much more power (almost twice), turbo charged, more lift, more comfortable, quieter. I have been happy with the way the CASE machines have progressed. I do believe the S-3 cab improvements should have been included in the original 400 series release. Everyone speaks of the cult like following the 1800 series has and its deserved, but lawyers and customer demands force changes, whether we like then or not.
Sixkids: Do you have a budget $$ you were looking to spend on a skid steer? If you want a basic homeowner-type machine, I agree with Crewcheif, a well-maintained Bobcat 763/773 might be a good choice, or an older Case machine. ASV might be a good choice for a track machine if that's what you are set on because there seem to be quite a few used ones out there reasonably priced.
Unless you see yourself getting into area where a wheel machine will get stuck, a track machine is overkill for most uses. Also tracks down right suck for plowing snow. Can it be done? Yes, I normal get stuck with a track machine for plowing the parking lot. Cheap used track machines are normally cheap for a reason.
Why do you feel that tracks are not good for snow, bobcatdan? We in oklahoma love them in snow, and don't see why you would dislike them.
I have used tracks in snow. It works well if you can scrape down to asphalt each time. If you get a build up ice/snow, tracks become ineffective. Thats likely not a big issue in OK. however its life further north.
What is your budget? What specifically do you need to do? What might you want to do? What is your previous skid steer experience and are you willing to change?(brands, controls etc.) Do you want new and nice, or old and simple? Oklahoma may just be the key words. In the midwest where its nearly impossible to keep a clean surface for traction the wheel machines work better. The answer is above. Ground pressure. You need it for ice. You dont need it for snow unless its deep hard packed snow. Same reason flotation tires on tractors are suicide in the winter. Flotation+Ice=Bad. Now both flotation tires and tracks get much better traction in the dirt, and are much easier on the ground itself due to their large footprint and low ground pressure. However Ice does not compress and allow the tires/tracks to sink in slightly to get their traction. Therefore you rely solely on friction. When friction is the answer the more PSI the Better. Now a track machine with studded tracks would probably kick some ass. They haven't been as well recieved around this area. The construction people don't seem to mind them but they are not working well in Ag applications. To me the biggest issue is the rear of the machine. Its too wide, the engine is impossible to get to, the plastic sheilds get misaligned the first day, the honecomb cover allows too much debris into the engine bay and also collects debris behind the rear window where the cab inlet is at, and while I am proud of new holland for catching up and making the cab flip, you still need to have the boom in the air to really be able to comfortable get anything done. Like I said though, this is coming from the ag industry and tired machines. We don't push the limits of the capacities, we push the limits of durability due to the conditions. The CNH machines are not adequately equipped to deal with the bedding (some farmers have had fires others who use sand have ruined radiators, cabs get dirty fast too), or deal with the constant side loading of the attachment for pushing up feed, scraping pens etc. The pins wear out too quickly. They also are not set up to be cleaned easily which is an issue in our environments. We were diehard NH and it took enough to switch away from them, but we've been happy with the switch. The folks in construction I've talked to with the CNH alpha's don't mind them but their main reasons for their purchase were loyalty, price, visibility or resistance to change (changing controls, changing dealers, etc.). Their visibility is outstanding and the reach of the vertical booms is still unmatched. Theres enough I miss about them, but being the one who has to fix all of them I'm glad we don't have them. That said, The older machines would be a good choice for the OP. I would steer away from the L100 series new hollands and their issues and get back to the old LS series. They were solid, simple, and reliable. CAT purchased undercarriages from ASV to put on their MTL loaders. They took their wheeled machines and put ASV's undercarraige on. That was the issue. The ASV was purpose built to run on their undercarriage and worked well on it, the Skid Steer Design from CAT didn't fair as well with it. They still cater to a certain market that has a need for them. The later CTL's addressed the issues with a rigid steel undercarriage like the rest of the competition.
Hey Fellas, Been meaning to reply, and then Sandy hit this past week and set us back a bit - other than buying gas, we're pretty much back to normal just north of NYC. Anyway, I've been really looking at specs and such, and have decided on a track machine rather than rubber tires for my use. I've also decided on a bigger machine than my original thoughts. The following are the models I will be demoing in the next two weeks: John Deere CT333D Kubota SVL90-2 CAT 299D Bobcat T770 Case TV380 I have dealer support for all five companies between 5 to 20 miles away, which is a big consideration for me. I decided on the bigger machine, because I've decided to scrap the small dozer (D3/D4) concept, and am going to try to use the CTL (along with an excavator) for everything from clearing, digging foundations, backfilling, septics, mulching, stump grinding, grading.....everything. I'm in a position to purchase new, or near new, and as I said, I will be demoing all units in the next two weeks, but I was hoping to hear plus and minus feedback from you guys regarding these specific models. One thing that "bothers" me with the John Deere (just looking at the site) is their lift linkage - seems awfully complicated the way they configured the linkage. I'm not sure if any of the other models have so many seemingly "offset" pins and linkages. Have a great Sunday, all, and I'll hope to hear back from anyone. All The Best !! Tom
TOm- John Deere arms make look chaos but they are damn heavy. Never seen or heard a Deere arm breaking or cracking how ever I've demoed one and brought a 5,000 lbs block. It picked block, gooseneck trailer at nose and the rear of the axel of the truck up easily. The block was up front against the nose. Can't feel anything in controls scine it's all electric.
Oh I forgot I'm running a t-320 it's 4 yrs old with asv control case pattern or foot ones. I run it on h pattern but if pushing or In muddy application I lug the living **** out of it n Wont spin or try very hard n by golly them drive controls can be stiff if on a slope steeper it is. Harder to hold or push/pull the drive controls
More as of help with the proof of concept than decision on machine purchase, I do the same things you do (minus stump grinding). I have a CASE TR320, and two excavators (160 and 55 sized) and I am able to do everything that I need with this set up. The push power of these large CTLs is amazing. Its not a D-3 or 4 but its pretty amazing and the useage rate is no doubt much higher (as would the undercarriage costs per hour I am sure). The key I believe is to do as much as possible with the fewest machines and keep the ROI as high as possible with the machines you have. I think for the small to midsized operation a large CTL paired with excavators can be a viable option, especially if you have the ability to rent a dozer for those jobs which the CTL would not be an option. I would add that with these adjustable EH machines like the CASE and maybe the CAT depending on if its got the AMICS package, be sure to take the time to adjust the machine to respond to your liking. By just jumping in and running it your missing out on what I believe is the key feature of EH machines and that is the ability to tailor the machine to the exact preferences of the operator.
Can't comment on Deere's reliability, but coming from owning older New Hollands I'll say there is the potential for much more wear using that design. We really didn't go through as many pins as I would've thought, but you know they have some slop when they put rub strips on the cab from the factory. The inline design seems to be much more rigid on our machines. Any other vertical boom will have just as many pieces of linkage. The main boom, the pivoting chunk of boom, and the stabilizer. They all have a cross brace as well in the rear and much beefier components to boot. No other linkage lifts the way the CNH/Deere boom does though with the rams pushing nearly straight back then pivoting forward. Allows better visibility this way though and slightly better reach than the bobcat/CAT designs. I guess the new Gehl vertical linkage looks to be similar to the CNH/Deere somewhat. In addition to AMICS on the CAT there is also an initial calibration the dealer can alter as well. The 299D has a big arse. Can't see much back there. The Electronic throttle, dual leveling, hydraulic snubbing, and other new features they have on them is nice though. The CASE will most likely have the best visibility but IMO they have the worst serviceability and their arse and its plastic pieces don't take long to become misaligned. My biggest complaint from a bystanders point of view with the Bobcats is how they have to constantly blast you in the face by blowing the air out the side of the machine. makes for one cloudy worksite.
I think your getting your machines confused Durallymax. I cant imagine the servicability being any easier than it is on the CASE. Everything is in reach very easy to change all the fluids, they even have drip eves that dont allow you to make a mess. Now if you are talking about the older series than I would agree. Also there is no plastic on the CASE. The CASE is steel and I have yet to have anything missalign. The NH version has plastic pieces on the cowling.
Im roping the Case and NH into one machine I guess. Now that I think about it I remember the Case not having the plastic. But I still disagree on serviceability on the vertical linkage machines. maybe I need to look at the bigger ones like you are running, but the L220 we had was impossible. Tall radiator in the back, tiny top cover on top. I'm 6'2 and could reach partway down the engine but had to get up on my topside creeper to get any lower but then the boom was in the way still. No access from the sides. No access with the cab up as the muffler blocks that hole. Starter and alternator both looked like royal PITA's. Inline fuel filter was not fun to change really either. I'm happy they made the cab flip on the NH, but with it flipping forward like it does, you still need to have the boom in the air to do anything comfortably. With our CATs the entire engine is serviceable from rear. I didn't mind that with our old new hollands I had to put my long arms to good use too, but the new ones just don't give you any options. The hydraulic tank on the CAT does block access from that side but can be swung out of the way partially without draining it, unlike a muffler that is scorching hot and rusted on. My favorite part though is simply not having to worry about always having the boom in the air. If I have a choice though I still put it up but at least if one of them ever dies It's nicer to work on with it down. Give me one of your skids for a month to give to our guys scraping barns. They'll find a way to misalign something. I can't believe they don't have this one beat up more than it is. Smashed one pin retainer bolt off but thats all so far in 650hrs. I think the plate steel that sticks out just past the door at the bottom helps. They had the NH banged up in less than 100hrs. BTW it was the metal pieces that were twisted and caused the plastic pieces to interfere with the others. The plastic was surprisingly flexible though. They had the lights smashed out right away too. poor design there. The Bobcat and Cat ones are still intact. Servicability to me means fixing any failure the fastest. Compared to the L220 we had, both the B and C series Cat's have given me the ability to perform regular maintenance quicker in many areas and should the need arise, major repairs appear to be faster as well. The Cat's have their troughs for everything too. technically I think our old NH170s had a form of a filter trough down there, couldn't tell though. Most new stuff has them for environmental reasons more than anything. A year ago we were set on Bobcat's, but didn't like the lack of service to back them up or the dealers commitment to the sale. A year before that we were just going to buy every LS170 we saw and keep running them till we couldn't anymore. Couple years before that I would've told you NH build the best skid steer and never would've considered the CATs. Ended up working out for now. Who knows, maybe the next set will be different, but despite the things we all miss about the NH's (controls sometimes, visibility, reach, and most of all the boom lock), these machines have been running very well and the service has been too good to go away from especially when listening to the complaints the others have about their dealers.
I guess different environments bring out different aspects of a machine. I look at serviceablity to be ease at changing filters and checking fluids. The CASE is as good as anything on the market in that respect. As far as replacing major components, honestly I dont look at it because I wont be doing it. I have not had a major compenent fail since the mid 90's on an 1840. If I do have one it will be going to the dealer. I will say these new machines dont have the steel in them that older CASE machines did. My help put a ding in the back of mine that would not have been more than scuffed paint in a 400 series. At the release of these machines they said that they will not be built like the older machines were, structurely speaking (cost of steel, being price competetive). Thats true they are not. The arms in the air has been the rule of the day for CASE since the XT series. I dont find it an inconvience. Once I remember having to get into the bathtub of the machine and not being able to lift the arms. So it can happen but it has not been an issue for to speak of. I broke the lines to release the hyd pressure and raised the arms.
I am a landowner, don't do it for pay so my situation may be similar to yours. I have a few skid steers for use on the property and for firewood harvesting, tree felling to feed a 10 cord/year furnace. I have both a Bobcat 743 (wheeled) bought for $6000 and a Bobcat 773 (steel over (foam filled) tire tracks) bought for $10,000 and find that the 743 is great because it is small enough to fit into a horse stall, however otherwise I love the 773 with the Loegering tracks. If you expect to use the bobcat in winter conditions I strongly recommend a wheeled machine with over the tire tracks. Tracks on ice are useless compared to tires with chains on them. I plow a few miles of road with my Bobcat and run it with a single pair of chains on the rear - unstoppable even on VERY steep grades. The steel OTT are great on the yard compared to the wheel (probably not as nice as rubber tracks). Maintenance on the rubber tracks may be more expensive than makes sense for land owner use - I decided against them because the machine doesn't earn me a paycheck - it just keeps me from having to pay other folks to do work.
Smart move. You would have to be well heeled to own a rubber tracked machine without earning a paycheck with it.