I am renting a D6R this coming week and I am very apprehensive about actual climbing and sidehilling abilities (yes, I've read every post here concerning this topic!). Though I've had extensive use of large equipment over the years, I've only used a Cat (old D9) on relatively flat land for orchard removal. Now, I need to use a Cat up on property I purchased in the mountains to cut a road and a pad...on a scale of a 90 degree square, I am looking at approximately 34 degrees (I understand slope and grade to be different, that's why I cleared it up with this explanation). I also live around fire cuts where I see the almost unrealistic climbs and descents that are made doing these feats! What puzzles me is that the numbers don't seem to make sense in what I have seen done and what the numbers really are. I was glad to find this website because there really is no other source I could find for answers...now I am leaning on all you veterans for some sound advice (please don't tell me to leave it to the pros! I am going to do this and am very safety conscience...I have a VERY healthy respect for sidehills especially! My plan is to back up (so I can drop the blade if need be) to the "saddle" where I will cut the pad (only about 20% on the 90 degree scale) then slowly work downhill with the roadcut after the pad is graded, making my switchbacks as I go. Any input would GLADLY be appreciated! Thank you SOOO much fellas!
slopes ****, you say you are safety concious, and you dont come over as stupid. Go practice is the advice I would give. slope angles mean nothing until you are in the seat. A machine will go up X angle slope, but what happens when the uphill side track runs up on a rock you didn't see,? I think most of the experienced operators on here will agree you will have to do something pretty rash / dumb / stupid to turnover a D6R. Get the feel of the machine, keep the blade low and gently push the boundrys. If you feel uncomfortable then STOP. A dozer will climb better forwards than in reverse due to the weight of the blade. You might need to climb forwards and then turn to push back down especially if the ground is sandy / loose. In which case turn slowly and blade low.
Pioneer work ? Hello ****, What you are talking about is road pioneering , takes some accomplished dozer hand to do. I know from past experience. It is basically the technique of cutting and sidecasting. Sometimes you have to backdrag the material,you cut, just to keep it ,from going to far ahead and get it to the downhill side under you. Distributing the material evenly. Take short strokes and sidecast , your cutting the sideslope while filling the downslope simultaneously,yet keeping enough material for road width at the same time. Keep one track in the cut and the other track on the fill. Keep your seat belt tight . A PAT dozer is better than a straight dozer. For a inexperienced pioneer dozer hand, I'd recommend a excavator for pioneering the road. Then bring a dozer in, for additional work.
Northart, AtlasRob...these are articulate, informative responses that I'd truly hoped to hear from those who know the art! I'd have loved to have an excavator, but my budget won't allow it...I'll have to do my best with the D6 that I can. I'd also been told that climbing is better because of the blade weight, but "thought" the backing up may be safer. I do plan on starting on top and working down; short strokes and leveling as I go. I do agree that getting my butt in the seat for a while is essential and I won't by any means take any chances. Road pioneering indeed...thank you folks for great input! Hopefully I can get a few more to weigh in? God bless you all!
Pioneering ? Here's an extreme pioneering effort by an excavator. There were more pictures to this , but only one I saved. Never found out the reason for this effort either.
**** I would say to start low, and pioneer your road from the bottom up. This way, you will gain experience as you go, and start from a shorter distance to slide/fall if you get in trouble. Starting at the top, then going down is easier, but without the experience to know how far is too far, it is easier to go a little too far, and not be able to back up onto the road you have cut already. Going uphill, it is harder to get in that trouble. Do not push clear to the limit, as that is wht I have seen many do that end up in trouble. I know where there is a D-9L still laying on the side of a hill because the property owner thought he would save $$. He got out too far, slid on a rock, and rolled several hundred feet to his death. The pic is blurry, because it is from well over a mile away. Pioneering with a dozer can be done in amazing places, but if you get in over your head, you can loose it all in a hurry. Some things to remember to keep out of trouble: Always make your cut wide enough to leave a good berm alongside your dozer. Keeps you from accidentally running off the road Do not travel out past the end of your dirt in front of the blade, No "hanging tracks" Leave bout half the pile you were pushing. You can push that with the next pass. Don't get in too much of a hurry.
My advise would be to rent a D6D, if you can find one. The center of gravity is lower and these Cat's were made to cut roads. If you ask any of the old time loggers, they will all tell you that a D6D or a D7G are the machines to use on steep ground. I was running between my 490E excavator and my D6D all day, on a clearing job, and I always feel secure on the Cat when steep ground is involved. www.petersfamilytrucking.com
Sidehill work and pioneering. Hi, ****. Not wishing to get anybody feathers ruffled but JDOFMEMI has it pretty right for an inexperienced operator doing pioneering work. Start at the bottom and work your way up. You can't cut as much working up hill which is the biggest downside of doing it this way. On the plus side, you have better control of your material if you are pushing uphill and, if you have a PAT blade, you can angle the material across the blade faster working up hill. As JDOFMEMI said, if you get into an awkward spot working up hill, it is usually easier to get out of it again 'cos you aren't trying to climb back out of it. You just roll back out of it. Most dozers these days have a tilt cylinder on the blade. If your's has one, try tilting the outside corner up as you are cutting then tilt it down to get the material across the blade to the low side. If you don't have a PAT (power angle and tilt) blade, tilting the blade down as you turn will also help you as you turn the material out to the outside edge of the road. When using this method, it does pay to raise the blade a bit as you tilt the outside corner down so that are not cutting below the level you want your finished road to be. Most operators, especially experienced ones, will press the 'chicken switch' and stop before the machine reaches tipping point. The problem for a green hand is that they don't yet have a feel for the machine and this can sometimes lead them to be a bit too adventurous. Learn to 'listen' to what your butt cheeks tell about what you are doing. If you find yourself sliding across the seat to the low side at a rate of knots, it may be time to rethink what you are doing. If you find yourself sitting on the low side armrest and you keep going, you might want to get somebody to post the reults on Youtube and post a link here. LOL. Take it slow. We want you to survive so that you can post pics of your efforts. LOL.
JDOFMEMI, petersfamilytru, Deas Plant...thank you all for the sound advice! I do appreciate your concern for my lack of experience relating to my safety. I know that it can all go bad with one false step in a split second. That's why I am so thankful to you all for your input. I was surprised that I could find NO other site on the net such as this for any worthwhile information. You fellas really have a good thing going here! So, start at the bottom eh? Will do. Actually I have about a day's work at the bottom anyway to get me a nice entrance to my property from the road (large turnaround to begin the uphill approach). This should help with my acclimation to the new "T" handle controls (last I used was levers and pedals!). One of you mentioned the unseen rock that may come up...yes, there are plenty of them. Mostly large (slippery) plates of slate that are disseminating from outcrops, as well as bodies of shist (California state rock), and some quartz outcrops (in the heart of the Mother Lode), conglomerate, etc. I suppose there may be "leverite" (leave 'er right where she sets) buried under there as well. These are most definately high on my concern list and play a huge part of where the road is able to be cut. Hell fellas, my cheeks are already puckered...my young daredevil are 25 years in the past! I won't be starting till Monday, so hopefully I'll get even more input from you pros by then? Again, thank you all so VERY much!
trailing roads I have had the chance to cut alot of mountain roads both cutting trailing slopes an widening roads already in place.I like to start at the off load site and work my way in, nice to come from the top but if you have a problem better to have a road access ahead of time, we would alway's try for the three blades wide above the road to be cut/ stair step down moving material to the out side along with secured drainage taper to the inside slope, never used a h track, only d6,d7,d8,c6,8220,8230, with mech angle blades, can not stress enough like the other posts know your machine!!!!!!!!!!! this is not the place to learn with a machine you have little seat time in, several times i have had all the fill slide due to vibration and this is the reason to get the road base into firm ground, better to know it will hold that truck,crane,flat bed than to find out later your not cut in deep enough.
I can't give you a whole lot of advice pioneering with a dozer because I haven't done it, but what I can tell you is to make sure you're fairly familiar with diff steer on that 6 before you go up into the hills. Sounds like you have some work at the bottom of the slope to do first, that's probably best. Diff steer threw me for a loop for about the first hour on I was on it, takes a little getting used to if you're not familiar with it. Also, get used to using the brakes as it sounds like you'll need them, they're pretty touchy and require a little bit of a smooth touch. Learn how to change directions and use the brakes if need be, the machine will start rolling pretty quick if it holds in neutral for more than a second.
Keep the tips/advice a comin' fellas! GREAT STUFF!!!!!!! Thank you all SOOO very much!
If you can help it, dont work straight up and down...Go on 45 deg. angles while climbing or descending...WEAR YOUR SEATBELT...By starting on bottom and working up, If you get freaked out half way up, you will have a "safe spot" just below!Always leave the down hill side of your road as high as possible for compaction and to leave a nice windrow as a guardrail.
****, You are asking for alot of info. that is really hard to explain. I just know it takes alot of seat time to be comfortable working on slopes. I agree with the post of working from down to up, but I always work from uphill to downhill. As mentioned in a earlier post you can get yourself in a heap of trouble if you cant back up what you just cut, regardless how you work it keep your blade full. If roads are so steep that you are worried about working down to up or up to down, they will be too steep to get anything other than a dozer up or down anyhow, in that case you will need to do a side cut. When doing a side cut make sure you keep fill on your downhill side track, as soon as I see daylight peeking under the blade it is time to hit reverse and be sure that your fill is compacting, because in our parts we have alot of sand and the fill will actually strart sliding as you put weight on it. I have cut many a road in the Palo Duro Canyon and I have found out that when doing roads in steep terrain that rocks will give you more problems than anything else. So be careful about the rocks. My opinion is that you hire somebody with a dozer that has experience doing these kind of things to do this job for you. With the cost of lease and the cost of fuel you can hire it done nearly as cheep as doing this yourself. Hope this helps and good luck.
this old man has learned more here than any of the other places i have bookmarked and i have a screen full. you guys have kept me out of trouble a couple of times by telling what not to do. keep up the GOOD work.
Yer Welkum Hi, Jughead. Yer most welkum, Mate. If all the typing I do on this site only save one life or helps one person avoid serious injury, I will count it time well spent. I can't speak for others who post here but my main aim is to pass on the best information I can about easy and SAFE ways of doing things so that others here may gain some benefit from all the mostly very enjoyable hours that I have spent in a lot different saddles over the past nearly 50 years.
Pictures of my project...finally! **** here again...I first want to again extend my sincere appreciation to all who have weight in. I assure you I have taken everything to heart and am so glad to get the advice and tips from those of you who truly know how to "play" in the dirt! Maybe these pics I have just figured out how to resize will add more commentary to this thread. Also, I am pretty sure this hill I am working on may seem an easy task for you veterans of the trade...to me it seems like Mt. Everest! Also, can anyone give me an estimate on diesel usage for 40 hours? Again, it's D6R (2005), 6-way with a 3 shank ripper. The fellow I am renting from says 6 gallons an hour at full throttle? I have purchased a 275 gallon portable tank already.
6 gallons per hour sounds about right. The PAT will give you an advantage over a SU setup I believe, that should make things a little easier for the learning curve. Is this pad where you're starting? Are you headed up that slope? If so, just remember, flat, stable ground is right behind you always. Start the bottom end correctly, always leave yourself stable ground behind yourself and you'll be fine. I've busted road with excavator, not a dozer, the same principle applies but you can get yourself out of a mess quite a bit easier with an excavator.
Is the cat you are renting set up with a winch? If so, there are trees that may serve as good anchor points.
No winch...6 way and a 3 shank ripper.
This is the place I will be starting (truck in distant foreground). I only have to gain approximately 150 feet in elevation, but the road cannot exceed 16% (over a 16% requires pavement for code in this area).
elevation dear boy elevation Pictures Now I'm really hooked. I am looking at that hill and thinking :cool2 Ok...... But what happens at 150ft?
You are going to have a bunch of fun. I own and operate equipment for a living, but clearing and road building are fun no matter how many times you do it. Just enjoy yourself, don't get in a hurry and take lots of pictures! www.petersfamilytrucking.com
Sidehill benching. Hi, ****. Those photos do give a bit of an idea of the country you will be working in. Looks nice - almost a shame to desecrate it with a road. LOL. That 6 gallons per hour sounds about right to me too, +/- a gallon. From what you've posted so far, I can't see you being very gung ho about your operating technique, at least not in the early stages, so your fuel usage may be lower rather than higher. If the sidehill into which you are cutting gets pretty steep and the batter that have to cut gets too high to reach from the road level, you can ramp the end of your cut up a bit and turn it into the hill a little so that you can leave a little slope on your batter. You then just move the ramp along the hillside as you go, pushing the accumulated material over the end of the ramp and leaving sloping batter behind you. Practice will make your work neater as you go. You can also use this method if you want to make a wider road and the width causes the batter to get higher. D6peg makes the point, as did some others, about rocks being a problem. Take your time, work them out and over the edge. You may to recover them from somewhere way below at a later date but that's better than somebody else having to recover your body from a wrecked machine somewhere 'down there'. Since you mentioned that this machine has a PAT blade, I'll add this suggestion. Work gently around any solid objects that you come to if using the corner of the blade. Those hydraulic angling rams don't have the inherent strength of a straight dozer's outside push arms and there is a fair bit of leverage against them in their position well inboard of the blade ends. Dig around rocks and roots to get them out rather than trying to pry them out with brute force using the corner of the blade. Hope this helps.
Also there is no place so steep on that hill that you could not drive straight down off of if you got in trouble and could not back up.Just try to think ahead,that is always have a "plan B" and don't get so far ahead of yourself that plan B is out of reach.This is where experience comes in of course but that is how we got our experience. That hill is approaching the % of grade that a dozer might have problems backing up but there will be no danger in backing down it or driving down if it becomes necessary. Plan ahead to control the rocks that you might dislodge in your roadbuilding and if an out of control rock could cause damage to someone or some thing you need to build a berm or dig a trench of some sort on the downhill side to contain anything that you cannot control.Good Luck,you can do it!!Ron G
As I was reading down through the replies, I was hoping somebody would hit on that point. Bad, bad karma involved in getting one track off in the loose fill on the downhill side while the uphill track is sitting on solid ground and the belly pan has you high-centered. Be careful. We don't want you coming back and telling us about when the shist hit the fan....
Use The Decelerator Hi, ****. One point I intended to put in my last post and forgot was, Use The Decelerator. You can use it to reduce the power that you apply to a corner of the blade, to stop spinning the tracks (which can put you into an embarrassing position surprisingly quickly at times on a job like this, to smooth out your direction and speed changes in the transmission and to reduce the force with which you hit the ground on the other side of a bump that you may leave behind you or find in front of you. Basically, it just makes the machine that much more controllable. Happy dozing - 'bull', not snooze.
As u are restricted in max steepness, do some calculations and mark out in the terrain where u want the road to be. Its bether to have some sticks/markings to work after, than judging in the seat and after u finnish find out its too steep. 16% is rather steep, so try to get it less if possible. (as low as possible) Trucks will get problems if not compacted and with gravel on top.
Well I like pics, but seeing in real life is where it is at. I like your idea of starting at the truck. In the second pic it looks like the rock layers may work in your favor. Personally I've had a d7k sideways on 3 to 1 slopes and felt comfortable. How wide is your road going to be? You need to keep tracking the entire road base in as you go, getting solid compaction on the whole road base is key. If you have friends that migh be experienced dozer drivers, it may pay to have them give you a lesson. I think it was already mentioned but you can steer a dozer with the blade by tilting the blade down in the direction of the way you wanna turn. In rock and slopes, take slow, take little bites. If you hit a hard spot, it might cause the dozer to spin, and on the inside corner it may turn you a little. Just keep your foot on the decelerator. A hystat dozer might be easier cause if take your hand off the controlls and decelerate, the hystat system instantly becomes a brake. Maybe a deere 750j would be a better choice, I don't know.
To all my new brothers in this project... Awesome! Thank you all so much for your much needed advice...there are so many of you now, more than time permits to thank you all by name--you know who you are. Believe me when I tell you that I have read each and every one of your replies many times over, digesting each single bit of advice that you all have provided in my minds eye. Not one word was treated casually because I know you are all veterans of the trade who, in their heart, want me to taste the thrill of what you fellas experience everyday in the art you have chosen for a profession. Perhaps it will relax some of you to know I was farm raised, disking the fields at 7 years old, always on one form of equipment or another all my life, etc. Rest assured I am not a city boy who thinks he knows it all by any means! I just needed what you brothers have provided. Just coming to you all must show some smarts, eh? LOL I'll try to touch on a few of your concerns...I plan on making the road as level as possible to keep it well below the code, I also plan for it to be a minimum of 12' wide. There are two possible routes I have mapped out for the road up to the pad...the rocks will dictate which one is feasible. I do plan on ramping up from the road you see in the pictures...an "off ramp" so to speak. I had more pictures to post (I wanted to show you fellas the view I am after--miles of lake and mountains!) but it seems my trial offer has expired that I used to resize the photos! Thank you, Bill Gates. Can't seem to find any other programs Vista compatible, so I guess I will make Mr. Gates a bit richer still! Deas, I am not gung-ho as far as attacking the mountain with a vengeance...but I am VERY excited about doing this! I can't wait to get started, a s-l-o-w dance of man and machine. Digger242j--may the shist NEVER hit the fan! Again, you guys are AWESOME! :notworthy
Negotiable slopes/grades Hi, ****. Here is a slope or grade chart, courtesy of Swishy from ACMOC and ACME forums. As you can see, 16% is only 1 foot rise in 6 feet forward, not a HUGE grade and certainly not beyond the capabilities of most trucks. I would suggest that 25% or 1 foot rise in 4 feet forward would be a good limit to stay under if possible. There is also another thread on here with a design for a slope meter on it. I just can't remember which thread it was at the moment but maybe somebody else, perhaps one of our hard-working moderators, can come up with the right thread. Hope this helps.
Oooppss - no picture. Let's have another try.
Bill has enough of your money. We now have the technology to resize your pictures, right here! Looky:
Uh, we don't have any of those. Just a bunch of lazy good-for-nothins. But I took care of it anyway. I presume you mean this thread: It's post #50.
Howdy again fellas! Like I said...I'd previously read EVERY thread on here concerning slopes and grades and have ALREADY printed out that chart! It even had a dozer climbing it repeatedly and falling off at the top! Thanks again though! I swear, you guys ARE ON TOP OF IT! (don't you ever work? LOL!) Now I'm gonna try Digger's link to resizing...I think I was there already but it wasn't Vista compatible? After I check that out, I gotta get out and get some welding done to get my fuel tank on my trailer. You guys ROCK...no pun intended!
a couple more photos... The link posted by Digger wasn't compatible for Vista...nice try! However, Mr. Gates was gracious enough to allow me to activate my "free" 60 day trial. Thank you Bill and Melinda. One picture is from my buddy's Cessna...my build site is just to the left of the "Y" made from the lower road (lower end of houseboats) and my road access, almost center picture (just to the left of the Y, about 100-125' up the hill in the clear spot). The other 2 pics are from the boat...you can see the lower and the upper road as well as where they would meet in these as well. Sure doesn't look intimidating from these angles, does it? (Ha!) So it looks as if I can post pictures when I come home during the week from time to time...God bless you all!
I'm using Vista and am not having any problem with the resizer, there must be another issue. If it doesn't work for you, try www.irfanview.com and download the free version of their program, it's what I used to resize prior to the program update here.
Beautifull View ****. Looks like a grand place to build. Let me know if you need any "consulting" I wish you well, and hope to see many more pics of your progress.
Thanks, Digger, for 'doin' nuttin'. Hi, Digger242j. Thanks for 'doin' nuttin'' and digging that thread up in your plentiful spare time. Much appreciated
another idea I think there is a guy on here called "roll over pete," not sure what part of cali he is from but I know he drives a big dozer. Might be worth lookin him up for some advise or maybe a little instruction.
Took delivery today of the Cat! Didn't get to play much, just drove it up the road about 1/2 mile and wrestled with a few big rocks to see what she'll do. I am amazed at how wonderful she feels, so responsive and precise! Rides like she's on rails too! I swear, that is one touchy brake system! I'll spend a half day tomorrow warmin' up to her and camping out with her the rest of the week...do they like roasted marshmellows? Unless I have to drive back down here to the valley, looks like I'll see you fellas in about 8-9 days! Again, thank each and every one of you for your valuable input...it's all locked in. I'll be inching her along with care...
when i started to push the ilmits i xxxx my pants, i just always thought to my self i will side before i tip over. and always keep a big windrow below me this has maybe been said already sorry if so i need 3 post before i cant ask what i want .
I hope you planned ahead for fuel each day )Ron G
Have Fun. Hi, ****. Have fun - safely.
Welcome to the forums, morgsD6r. Some members have just gone to the "test" area and posted there so they get the three posts required to start threads of their own. Either that, or one of us could start a thread for you.
That disk brakes for ya, thats why I prefer the good old bands. Very cool pictures, especially Northarts, fun stuff.
Where in california is this? Looks a lot like the area I live in.
great pics of some good scenery, we will be waiting.
Hey fellas! I'm back from the mountain! I’m back from the great adventure! All went very well. The D6 performed flawlessly and was a very easy learning curve to commit to memory. After a few hours it was like a video game! It didn’t take but the first day to wish I’d had a bigger machine. I had to go with an alternate plan because the rocks were not in any way cooperative to say the least. As a matter of fact, I think I have discovered the hardest substance known to man. Diamonds got nothin’ on these big, blue monstrosities of bone-jarring slab. They were the deal-breaker that halted the road pioneering effort dead in its tracks. I only had 40 hours rental to use the D6…the road would have taken all my time and probably more. So, I moved the mountain instead, cutting a place for a house and a shop, as well as the driveway off the main trail. The most challenging part for me was getting a good grade for drainage and leveling the build sites. Many of you asked for pictures…I took a bunch of ‘em. Probably at least one picture for every ton of rock/dirt moved. I can only post 3 at a time, but if you want to see more let me know and I'll be glad to post them! I think it was petersfamilytrucking that said it would be fun...you are so right my friend! Thank you all so very much! You all ROCK!:notworthy
Glad everything worked out for you and you're in one piece, at the end of the day, if you get home safely that's all that matters. Hahaha. That's the one nice thing about an excavator, you can handle the rock a little better, but some of that slag looks like it couldn't be moved regardless of machine. A 6R probably would've given you a little more juice, but not substantially more. Tough to find a 6R with a 6 way blade as well, at least around here, I think having the PAT was probably a big help by the looks of things so you just make due with what you have. Oh yeah, more pictures! :drinkup
More PICS Please!!!
More pics... trying to show some stages as well as obstacles...
and a few more pics... to give an idea of progression...:beatsme
and even more pictures! oh oh...I'm screwing up sequence now? what the heck...I think this will be mostly cutting in a switchback from the main road to my driveway...
Whoa... Look at your progress. Wow, you've made some great progress... It doesn't matter how long it's been since you've run a Cat, it comes right back! Great Work!!!
Nice pics and nice work!
Nice work! You need to find someone someone to rent you a crusher and turn all those rocks into road base, come winter time all that red dirt is gonna be nasty red mud.
nice work :drinkup
Job done Pics, pics, pics, :notworthy:notworthy:notworthy The boy done good. And he come home safe. WELL Done. Mission accomplished. :drinkup:drinkup:drinkup
Great stuff. Hi, ****. Great stuff. It LOOKS like you had fun AND accomplished something worthwhile too. Thanks for the photos.
**** looks like your property is becoming famous, I was browzing craigslist for my area and saw an ad for dozers4rent.com. I went to the site and there were pictures of your work on the site. Looks good:drinkup
Good job! Good work there and glad everything worked out and you have everything you started with. I agree on getting a crusher if you can, clay is about all we have here and it is a mess.
Awesome pics, glad you stayed safe, got the job done and had fun doing it. I think to many times I see guys that find running this stuff a burden. To me that says you need to get out of them, I always love running my machines. Always nice to see what you can accomplish when you put your mind too it. Thanks again for the pics. Trbo :drinkup
Thank you all once again SO very much! You fellas and this wonderful site are AWESOME! You gave me all the advice I needed when I needed it the most. Then you all graciously followed up with congrats on the finished job. The other side of this job is who I rented from...Ken McIntyre. This fellow is now a personal friend of mine...so much so, that I put together a website for him! (as Humbolt Deere noticed and was kind enough to comment on!) It's at dozers4rent.com if you want to take a look. Ken had the lowest rates of anyone...besides that, he is one heck of a good guy. If you need to rent, he serves Central and Northern California and is there to help. ...maybe he needs to rent some space here on this site???
reply to #47: Tuolumne county...sorry it took so long to get back to you! More pictures are at dozers4rent.com if you ever need a rental, talk to Ken!
a crusher....hmmmm The thought never occured to me until a couple of you fellas mentioned it. What do they go for? Are they cost effective as to the alternative of having crushed rock trucked in? I do have some nice looking (gold bearing) quartz I'd like to crush and pan out on my property to see what it's holding...