I got to surfing Youtube this afternoon and came across this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuNUOVRoJiI&feature=related My question is why the operator would run the front wheel up on the windrow the way he is? I'm not a grader operator at all, I've only sat in the seat with them shut off as a kid, but as an observer it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Because he don't know what he's doing, thats why
Just guessing, but by looking at the street he is trying to clean, he may have made a pass down the other side first, and that's where his windrow ended up. No blue tops to follow, so he is already rubbing as hard as he can to try to get the hardpack broken loose and move it. It looks like he may have curb or sidewalk to deal with, and you never know about water valves,manholes, or drains that he may be watching for. He is balancing maximum cutting with trying to keep moving forward. I'm glad you presented your question the way you did. I've watched some equipment videos on youtube, and it is really sad and sickening how some of the comments are thrown at the operators. One comment from an "expert" was wondering why he didn't roll his moldboard back so the snow would "roll" more easily. He was pitched forward to use the sharpened edge of his blade to cut the ice/hardpack from the pavement. Roll it back after everything is cut loose, roll more snow into your windrow, and resharpen your edge. Unless we are sitting in his seat, we don't know what he is really dealing with. smoothoperator...vented
One thought on the tire in the windrow is that the snow may be providing more traction than the ice on the street. Thats also why he would have the rear end kicked over on the fresh snow instead of flat on the ice. I agree with smoothoperator above, especially about the "expert" comments.
Looks like he`s doing just fine to me. The front axle pivots in the centre so it doesn't `t matter that much where the front wheels are in this application. Remember, he is working on pavement so he can put all the down pressure he wants on the blade. As long as his driving wheels are on the hard level ground he`s going to get the job done. Let`s face it, plowing snow and ice like that isn`t rocket science.
Yup, he may have been getting better traction. As that looks like a 6x6. But I have been away from that type of equipment for a long time. muzy
If you look closely you can see that the operator has the rear of the machine articlated over to the sidewalk on the street. This leaves the front wheels in the middle of the street on the windrow. Articlating the machine gives it a bit more mechanical advantage, making it cut a little easier. Also it makes anything on the street easier to see and it may improve traction! Cheers Al
Well I don't know what qualifies one as an "expert" but I have plowed snow in northern Minnesota for 41 consecutive years without missing a year.... that said, I've never seen the advantage to plowing your steering axle thru a pile of snow like that...... just saying.
Lol...a lot of fancy dancy explainations...not the way to do it..plain and simple..lol.
I don't think there would be a benefit to running that wheel through the windrow like that. I think id try maybe just a bit less articulation to get that wheel out of that windrow. But that being said, criticize all you want.... He's getting it done and pulling up lots of hard pack an ice.
It said in the video that the snow and ice was being loaded with a blower so maybe he's running his tire on the windrow to break up the big chunks ? Just a thought.
Not criticizing..just making a point about running the front wheel over the windrow. Notice that the grader was bouncing when riding on the windrow. Problem was that he was near full articulation and sort of drifted out on the windrow. Now..thats not the end of the world as probably many of us had been in a similar situation. As you said he got the job done. The orginal question was basically is this proper procedure...answer is no. He had lots of room between the curb and the windrow if he kept the grader straight, and it would have been easier to control. I don't think traction would have been an issue. Just my take for what its worth...
Maybe it's a new grader for him and he never had an articulating machine before just a kid with a new toy lol. I now when I went from my 740 champion to my 770G John Deere I was articulated every chance I could.... Was it necessary? Hell No lol
As I mentioned, I've never operated a grader but I've done snow removal for over 30 years. And again, as an observer, it would appear to me that it would be easier to maintain the level of the blade with all the wheels riding on a more level surface than on the windrow the way he is. I do see the visibility advantage, especially as the machine passes the camera.
i think hogrst has it spot on.
Lol...me to 770g! Now I'm going to throw something at ya..I bit off topic but oh well..When I was in Labrador there was 2 of us leveling..I noticed that the other operator most times had his grader in full articulation..even making the final passes. I asked him what was the advantage of doing that as I was mystified as hell. He told me that its alot smoother (no bounce). Of course I tried it, as a person is never to old to learn something new. I did find some difference but found it awkward, so it was straight on for me most passes..lol.
i am no blade hand but he seems to be cutting the pack and moving right along. maybe that's just where that front wheel ends up at the moment he is plowing that little road.
Not trying to stir the pot, but, the only way you can get good visibility of the very end of the moldboard in a CAT M model is articulate and use the door glass as your windshield. If he straightened the chassis and pulled the moldboard end in until it's near his tire edge and then tried to clean the curbs he wouldn't have very good visibility of the end of the moldboard at all. He's cleaning against sidewalks and curbs most of the time in the video. He doesn't care what's going on in the middle of the road. If you look closely at the operator he is concentrating and staring constantly at the end of the moldboard. Lastly, I agree with the comments about not taking a dig at the operator without being in the seat. If we were given the task in that situation and in that machine, after a few minutes we would probably set the machine up just like he did or something very similar....
Grader4me.... Less bounce eh! Sweet I like it. I'm all other that like a fat kid on a smartie!! now is that some articulation or all the way?
I am kind of surprised no one has mentioned one possible reason for articulating. If your back wheels have little traction then your back end tends to want to slide over when you are blading. Articulating properly helps to counter that and keep you moving forward in a straight line.....pushing a windrow to the right will push the machine to the left if it does not have enough traction to hold it's line. I also agree that he may be trying to grab more traction running his front wheel on the windrow. There is no doubt that snow provides better traction than ice. That is a good thought about the level of the blade Steve. But the front wheels move up and down independently to the rest of the machine (to a point). So in this situation would have little or no effect at all on the blade.
I don't think the back end is kicking out,,,, when putting that kind of down pressure as he is, you have no weight on the front axle,,,, if you look close he's using his roll back feature to grab some steering ability from time to time
Nope, the back end isn't kicking out much. He corrects it quick when it tries too ....which is kind of my point, he is not struggling to hold a straight line. I know with your experience I don't need to tell you, but for those that don't know. The articulation on a grader serves greater purposes than just giving a tighter turning radius when needed. When used properly it will also help you hold a straight line in a heavy cut with minimal traction or help keep you on a slope you would normally slide off of with the machine squared just to name a couple.
Lol...close to full aticutlation most times.. Well...I will have to disagree with you. When you ride a windrow with your front tire the grader will bounce on the front end..which will cause your moldboard to bounce. In this situation its no big deal as he was applying a lot of pressure. If you was fine grading and rode your windrow...ouch I really don't think he would have had any problem with traction etc. if he would have kept the grader straight with the toe next to the curb. He still would have had lots of visibilty of the toe through the bottom window. Not picking apart his work as he got the job done. Just goes back to the original question thats all.
Traction may have been less of an issue if he were working his way down the hill instead of up it. Don't know why he would work up the hill but he likely had his reasons. Can you explain in more detail what you mean about keeping straight with the toe next to the curb and how it helps with traction? I don't think I understand what you mean....you're not suggesting to use the curb as a bump stop? Here is part two of that video http://youtu.be/OGzOs4JgmaE He reaches the top, straightens out and starts blading down the other side. You can see, especially near the end that it is taking more effort to keep moving in a straight line with the grader squared than it did with it articulated.
Keep the grader straight..toe next to the curb..(not bumping on the curb but you want to cut the ice as close to it as you can)and not ride the windrow(there was room for his front tire between the curb and windrow)..he is losing traction on the front wheel drive mauling through the snow/ice. If he has problem with traction/steering lighten up on the load a bit. In the second video notice when he lightens up on the load steering ability/traction comes back. When you bulldog like that it makes it very hard to control steering and your spinning and jumping all over the place.
God it pains me to agree with you Grader4me........
A better explanation............. by the amount of snow on the ground there , He's just prolly finishing up on a twenty hour shift and really don't give a da*n where his front axle is.... bwah ha ha
LOL...I bet it does...
LOL!!!!!!!!! at grandpa, too funny.
I totally agree. I run one hand controls. Blade lift levers are the outside two on the right side, levers positioned back and almost touching. The next lever in, and also back is the articulation. I place the two lift levers in my palm and my thumb rests on the articulation. I am constantly adjusting articulation. Tried to find a good picture but couldn't. I can take one if someone needs it for visual aid. My Brother runs a 670D. We converted it to one hand lift but he left his articulation lever forward. He has to let go of the blade lift levers to adjust articulation. Totally sucks to me, but hey, he's my older Brother.... :tong
Yeah I think you are probably right. We've all been there....
I respectfully disagree. There is no doubt that it is easier to steer if you lighten your load but you can also gain control and continue to take a healthy cut if you articulate. I don't see him spinning or jumping all over the place, he appears to have good control. I see him using every option and resource available to him to work his machine to it's full potential. If he lightened his load he would have to make at least one more pass and would have the ice he is busting out under his drive wheels instead of in front of his blade which of course is not to good for traction ether. If his front wheels where not powered (it is all wheel drive) then plowing them through the windrow would slow him down. But they are powered and not plowing. They are digging and helping to pull him along. I know any time I am on ice, be it doing snow removal or pulling sleigh trains, if I can get a drive wheel off the ice and into the snow it makes a world of difference and every little bit helps.
lol...if everyone agreed it wouldn't be any fun would it?....gee..I only have 30 years of experience so what would I know?,,lol
Couple comments, First I don't see any ice in the video,,, I do see snowpac, which here in Minnesota is a lot different than what we call Ice. Second is can someone honestly explain to me how loose snow piled up has more traction? Think about it. If that was the case then why do we spend so much money to push and haul it away,,, honestly.
First of all...I'm not running this operator down..as said, he got the job done. Yes, articulation aids in steering and control under heavy load in some situations. I stand by my statement about riding a windrow with the front tire, be it snow/ice/gravel/whatever. In the past I have cut ice/snowpack next to the curb many, many times. I have worked ice holes where vehicles..trucks included couldn't get through. During all of these countless times I have quite successfully kept my grader under control and got the job done...if I was taking to much..I would lighten up on the load and make another pass or maybe two..or three..whatever it took. Have I run the tire on a windrow? well.. sure I have..who hasn't? its not a perfect world and operators make mistakes..part of learning. And yes..of course you go where you can find the most traction...every situation can be different and each approach can be different..welcome to graderland...lol
I'm not sure if I can explain to you how it gives more traction. I kind of thought it was common knowledge among operators who work in the winter.....or even people who drive in the winter. Hard packed snow is very much the same as ice when it comes to traction.....cumming up to a stop sign before the roads have been cleared. Will you stop easier in the well packed down/shinned up track everyone has been driving in or do you stop easier if you straddle everyone else's track and put your tires in the fresh loose stuff? A truck driver pulling a snow covered hill. Will he make it up easier if he stays on the packed down path everyone drives in or will he have a better chance if he has room to straddle those tracks and blaze his own trail?
Every trucker I've ever met will stay in the tracks. Guaranteed spin out in the loose snow.
God it pains me to agree with you Grandpa...lol
... :lmao ...... :falldownlaugh
Not that my opinion matters, but I do however agree with Mr. Hay, compacted snow is essentially ice. Look up the coefficient of traction for snow and ice in the Caterpillar production handbook and I think you will be surprised, as I do not have it here at home but I do believe ice is 45%, I may be wrong as it has been awhile. And you are right as for truckers staying in the tracks, God forbid if you ever got a trucker out of the pre-existing tracks, they'd get lost with out them. Plus the only thing dumber than one trucker is two, and truckers are the second smartest people in the world, second to everyone else....
I pondered this question for quite some time and couldn't really understand your way of thinking that ice and compacted snow are the same... then I looked up the average temp in January where Brian lives and it said the ave. was 2.7C or36F.... then I looked up my average for Jan. it was 30 degrees colder here and then the light came on. lol Snow at thirty degrees is a lot more slippery than snow at sub zero temps.. In the video the gentleman was scraping snow NOT ice.... and there is a huge difference. So ive come to the conclusion its not philosphy's were disagreeing on, its that we don't understand each others circumstance's...
I live in Nanaimo, the warmest climate in Canada. But I have not been here long. I spent most of my life living in Alberta and working all over Western Canada...mostly the Northern regions and no matter where I am the same still applies.
I'll go with Brian on this traction thing. If you buy car snow tires, the tread pattern is designed to hold snow pack in the sipes, not throw it out. Reason being the snow pack between the sipes creates better traction than the bare rubber. Strange, but true. As for the video, it's hard to put a hard label on what kind of material he is cutting. It's certainly not snow, as in fresh fallen snow. It's certainly not ice, as in clear, black ice. But I would say it's a lot closer to ice than snow. I say that because of the amount of force required to cut it loose. I would not take the plunge of saying the operator is wrong in how he's doing it. I'm not sitting in the grader seat. He's doing it his way and very effectively as far as I'm concerned. I'll stick with my country gravel roads, a lot less obstacles to work around. On that note several years ago we had a series of bad snowstorms. Some of the townships got so far behind they couldn't get their roads open between the snows to give people a chance to get out. So the State Hiway Dept decided to be neighborly and assist. They spent all their time retrieving stuck graders that ended up in the ditch. Their operators were only familiar with blading exact shaped, paved roads. They didn't do so good in my world of variety. :tong
I have to disagree with this theory. Snow tires are designed to clear the treads quickly so that they are empty at the end of the revolution to take a new bite in the snow. I did a lot of research on snow tires a while back and was able to do some reading on the engineering behind them. The most aggressive treads are not necessarily the best, but they do have to clear themselves to be effective.
A very quick thought on snow traction. What if you think of the snow as a rack(gear) and the tire as a pinion(gear)? Some of the best traction I've ever had in snow is when I can see my tire tread pattern left clearly in the snow behind me. The pattern left in the snow is sometimes very firm, as you are compacting the snow and forming some sort of bond, maybe not a good one, but still a bond of some kind, to the snow or roadbed below. Temperature, tire tread pattern,machine design and weight, and "quality" of the snow will all enter into it, and will of course determine your ultimate available traction. Tire chains or using a machine's weight and speed can be used to achieve nearly the same results, but a good set of ice/snow tires is really the way to go. smoothoperator.....see you in the morning!
I would guess hes a city employee that is running a piece of equipment he is not an expert on and is just doing the best job he can.....trying to catch the windrow with the blade and not letting it spill over.
smoothop What you are describing is the same experience I have growing up in snow country. The packed snow sticks together like you were making a snowball or something. When "crushed" together just right you get really good traction, and if you work too hard and spin then it slicks up, and you have to back way out to get "hooked up" again. The quality of snow as you say matters, as too much or too little water content makes it either not stick very well, or else just turn to mush.
I'm crappy at technical explanations, but I'll try. I googled and found a 80 page report but it was written by a scientific type and most of the rhetoric I couldn't understand. Snow tires clear the treads only because of all the siping which makes them extremely flexible. So, if the contact patch is flattened by the weight of the vehicle, and then as it rotates to the top that flattened area returns to round, it will automatically throw out most of the debris. That explains why I tire with reduced pressure works better, more flattening of the contact patch which traps and grips the snow. If the principle idea of the design was to clean, all the siping would be angled like a rear tractor tire, which is specifically designed to clean as it slips in heavy traction situations. The traction a snow tire offers is the many, many small cavities and sipes that fill with compacted snow as the weight of the vehicle is applied, i.e., the contact patch. That compacted snow, stuck to the snow below it, offers the greatest traction. That's what's primarily moving the vehicle. The tire lugs are just there to capture that snow and pack it. The traction gained is much better than a large unbroken tire lug that has to depend on it's rubber to snow contact for traction. So I agree with you that they must clean. But I stand by the fact that the traction is offered by the compacted snow captured in the tread cuts/sipes compressing against the snow under it. That basic theory would explain why you get better traction on snow covered pavement/dirt than you do on snow covered ice. The snow the tire compacts can't be used for traction if it's sliding on ice. But give it a friction base to grip and off you go. But then, if you spin in one spot, compacting and shearing the snow until it's hard and slick like ice, all bets are off!!
In this thread i've already had to agree with grader4me,,,, now it looks like im in the same boat with steve.... bwah ahahhahaahah.
Bring an extra fishing pole for me gramps...lmao
Sounds like we have 2 competing arguments here. Is the traction better on fresh snow or not??? Who can arrange a pulling test to see which is the better choice? I would love to see it.
Fresh snow or old snow, traction is directly related to air temperature. At say 35 degrees, snow can be so slippery, you can hardly move it. At minus 45 F, it can have so much traction it will actually make a squeeking noise. (Randy Kreig could verify this).
If you old guys are going ice fishing don't forget tire chains.....I have a feeling you may need them lol I can also verify that grampa. Snow forms a layer of water on it until it reaches -40 then it does not anymore. But no matter if it is warm snow or cold snow lol it still provides better traction than ice or packed snow. The explanation ovrszd gave in his last post about snow tires makes perfect sense....there is nothing for the tires to bite into on ice or packed snow but they can bite into loose snow. If it is to warm then you are dealing with slush, not snow. You two guys are funny. The longer this thread goes on the harder it is getting to take what you say seriously lol
I have heard that squeeking noise before on cold winter days..driving in the snow..thought at first it was my wife..but it was my tires. I'm serious..really...
I'm certainly not trying to argue, just offering what I've learned. Not too concerned about taking sides. Always in discussions to learn. As long as no one gets their panties in a wad we'll all learn something.
ovrszd, I agree with your more detailed description!
Do you suppose the operator from Oslo, Norway has any idea how much discussion his plowing technique has generated?? smoothoperator
As of today, I could give a rat's behind about snow,,, it has all melted away in No. Minnesota..... hooray hooray spring mating starts today.!!!
SPRING MATING???!!!!!! I'm so gonna hit up the wife with that one BOOYAH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, he does smoothoperator....or at least whoever shot the video does. I shot him a message on youtube a couple of days ago, gave him the link and invited him to join us. He was happy to get it but I don't see him here :thumbdown
All of you are making me dizzy with this snow plowing stuff. Heck it was almost 80 degress here today and it's still officially winter. I didn't plow snow once all winter. I guess it was winter. someone pinch me and make sure I'm still alive..
I have not seen any amount of snow worth mentioning in....a while. By the time the real snow hits and stays I am back home to my island paradise to hibernate for the winter. ...Truth be told though, I kind of miss it sometimes. I love a good snow storm.
Take a run up north of Prince George. Snowed all day Monday and Tuesday night. -5 C here right now. I'm sick of winter.