Hi! folks, very excited to find this great place. I am a new guy from China and read a lot of ur discussion here, it is good to get an understand of the construction equipment situation in States. Hope you also have some interest in construction mashine market China. The total units of Excavator sold in China 2007 was 66,000. Main players are Doosan(11594), Komatsu(9950), Hyundai(9700), Hitachi(9000), Caterpillar(7500), Kobelco, Yuchai(domestic), Sunward(domestic), Liugong(2000, domestic), Volvo, SANY(1800, domestic), Lovol(domestic). The top 10 most popular single model with their sales units in China 2007 are: 1 320D 2990 Caterpillar 2 PC200-7 2246 Komatsu 3 DH220LC 2133 Doosan 4 DH225LC 2040 Doosan 5 ZX200-3 2030 HITACHI 6 R60-7 2022 Hyundai 7 DH55-5 1939 Doosan 8 DH60-7 1773 Doosan 9 R55-7 1748 Hyundai 10 R225LC-7 1716 Hyundai
with the building boom in China it seems the Chinese will buy what they can when they can. What is the reliability of the domestic models? as compaired to the more well known models listed from the US, Japan and Korea?
Yes, China construction equipment manufacture also developed very fast these years with the building&construction project boom. For the excavator more than 20 ton, they are all equiped with famous engine, hydraulic pump, some part design copy from CAT. Their price is similar as korean machine. For those smaller one, most are domestic manufactured, which cover a high market share to almost 80%. The picture show the most popular domestic brand in China.
You didn't answer the question Hitch.
So Sany is the best domestic machine in your opinion? with regards to cost and reliability? Interesting details you provided. Thanks
I must be going blind!
No you aren't but maybe that is as good as it gets on that topic....I lived in Asia for close to 8 years so I see it as kind of what I asked and it was good enough. :drinkup Have a XXXX on me M8
I thought you were being polite and you were. There is another explanation. One might draw an inference as to the lack of the detail and sidestepping.
Liugong is the best domestic brand in China HEX market, cause Liugong has a longer history than SANY in HEX R&D and got a pretty good marketing performance!
I am still waiting for the answer to Euclid's Question. I guess this confirms Euclid's position,which I interpret to mean that "this is as good as it gets".
Ah yes it would have been nice to know about reliability of equipment made domestically as compared to the others but what the hay....:Banghead
Funny , Liugong and Sany did'nt make the list . He'll have to put in a bit more effort on the HARD SELL to sell us one so that they will next year .
Sorry, euclid, I got misunderstand your question "reliability" as "reality" yesterday, and thank you for your remind Aussie Nick. For the reliability, in my view, some good China domestic brand can match the korean machine, still have long way to go with CAT, but because of the immature product support and less reputation on excavator market, not so many customer are willing to choose them. By the way, SANY is the biggest manufacture of concrete machine in China and LiuGong is the biggest manufacture of Wheel Loader (27,002 in 2007) in the world. They have their own mature manufacture experience and distribution in Asia and Africa, and all began to set branch in Europe and North America.
We're going to have a bit of a language barrier here, so let's try to have a little patience. This could be an interesting thread.
opcorn
Wow that is really detailed given the stats you provided on units manufactured/sold. The key word I get is mature. It can prove to be a good point of topic in the discussion when speaking on reliability, not to under estimate immature product support because those things get better over time if the money in returns is spent properly in the R&D department. Maybe sometime you can provide pictures of onsite jobs using these different brands of equipment.
I know most of those brands, except Lovol and Sunward. Pics would be nice. We get most of those brands here in SA, and at some stage we got Yuchai backhoe loaders. Any comment on those? Jonyang is pedelled here in SA, and we get Sany. i read a report in one of our construction magazines, and they seem pretty good. I must admit that I was impressed, if not surprised by the quality spoken of. No offence intended. Are you familiar with Powerstar trucks. Sorry to cut the thread like this, but SA gets a lot of Chinese equipment, much more than was ever in SA before. In the last 3 years, i've just been counting the brands as they flow into our economy, and they must be making quite a whack. I also heard that Doosan sold more than 50 000 excavators in China between 1997 and 2007. Is it also true that Doosan has a payloader / wheel loader factory in China? Thats all. Thanx
Hi again Hitch. I would like to know whether you are an operator, an executive or a salesman. I realize there is a language barrier but I would appreciate if you could point out as to what you perceive to be the main difference between the Chinese branded machines and say a machine like a Cat or a Kato. To date my experience with Chinese branded products has been extremely dissapointing including the industrial grade screwdriver that broke in two when I last used it. Further, my experience with Chinese branded products so far has been that they are exact but poor copies of other well known brands.I am speaking purely from my own experience, and other members may have had a different outcome. However, given my comments above I would invite you to respond.
I would too....only my experiance is with mostly hand tools. I've had the same experiance with cheap Chinese copies snapping with busted knuckles resulting. Mainland Chinese metalurgy often leaves a lot to be desired. Tiawan seems to have gotten their act together over the years as has South Korea and Japan. 20 years as a Navy Aircraft mech taught me that Cheap tools are crap tools and don't belong in my tool kit.
It’s true that nowadays China construction machine makers all pay lot of attention to the Africa market. One of the most important reasons is many projects in Africa are building by Chinese companies which using a lot of China machine. I am not familiar with this brand “Powerstar”, but I know a lot of China trucks have been exported to Africa and South Asia. I got good feedback from one of the customers in Singapore who use them in the Indonesia mine site. Doosan have been in the No. 1 position of Excavator sales for 7 years and the total units more than 50，000 from 1997 to 2007. It has an Excavator factory in east China and acquires a small local wheel loader company last year planning to manufacture and sell Doosan brand wheel loader in 2009.
web page http://www.doosan.co.nz/dependable.aspx
I am a salesman without much operate experience. But always keep touch with the operator, service people. I agree with your opinion about “copy”, actually these China manufactures just began to make machine for less than 10 or even 5 years, and how can they design good product by themselves. But I am sure those who always copy even when they become stronger will never stay long. In my view, the main difference between Chinese branded machines and other famous one is quality. This difference is due to an integration reason of technology level, education, human resource, management, customer habit etc. Construction machine is one reflection of this country’s industry, actually due to history reasons, China industry just begin to normally develop since 1980, it will be a long way to catch up with USA or Japan industry. So I can understand why product “made in China” has a bad reputation now. But I am sure if you take a look at these China branded machine 10 years later(or maybe longer), you will find some of them will be world class manufactures because all of the people in China have realize the situation and is working hard to improve their competence.
Some of the on site machines, Sunward SSL, YUCHAI Excavator, SANY in Africa.
I own a Yuchai YC35-7 , it is a very good machine . It is Cummins powered and has Jap hydraulics . The only thing that lets it down are the Bridgestone rubber tracks that fall off daily , ive had two off at the same time . The dirt spills into the sprocket race which the sprockets and rollers climb up on and off it comes no matter how tight it is . Also that stupid idea they have of running tiny carrier rollers on that segmented track shakes your teeth out , why they could'nt stagger the rollers so one is on the peak while the next is being carried over the gap instead of them all dropping into the gaps at the same time is beyond me . I use it for raking Lantana in difficult and steep terrain as with the blade i can jack myself up nearly straight on slopes . I'd recomend thier products as the fit and finish is a lot better than my Jonyang . I would not however recomend rubber tracks or a swing boom as it has to much purchase over the machine and makes it tippy and hard to control the bounce for final trim , sometimes i just have to let go of the controls and wait until it settles .
Hitch, Hey thanks for the information you have proven to be quite an asset on this thread. I see you are well educated and can speak/write english very well. How many other languages do you speak besides your native tongue? (not to be confused by just manderine or cantonese)
Iron Horse: I assume you are specifically referring to the Yuchai machine with regard to the tracks and swing boom???
Isn't that they also make the worlds largest concrete pump. Hold the world record for tallest/longest boom in the industry?
Thanks Bruce . If I wanted to look up a self serving advertising brochure, I guess I could have done that for myself. However your kind assistance in this regard is much appreciated:notworthy
Hitch: Let me try a different name. Firmaco Powerstar. If you are familiar with the old Mercedes Benz Powerliner, you will know that Powerstar trucks look exactly the same. Something about being built on Powerliner technology in conjunction with Mercedes Benz. They use Weichei engines, manufactured under licence by Steyr, got ZF steering, trany, axles, semm pretty decent, very popular. As for other Chinese trucks, the only thing I see is Dong Feng, but we are'nt allowed to use them in this country, so most of them are bound for Lesotho or Zim. Pics: Powerstar 2628 10m3 tippers.
No , i'm refering to all rubber tracks . The ones on it are Bridgstone which is a world renown brand and they come off , it happens to all makes and models . They would be OK for street work but anything like loose soil of mud will see them laying on the ground beside you . If your digging beside buildings i'd recomend a '0' tail swing machine with a center mount arm as apposed to a swing boom , arghhh never again .
Well I guess thats your experience but I was just doing a few sums and I believe I personally have over 12,000 hrs on rubber tracks and have never had one off in all types of conditions, even working on demo. They are not always ideal and I know they do come off, as do steel tracks. The swing boom, IMHO is one of the greatest productivity improvers ever put on a mini-ex. My right foot is rarely off the pedal. We do all manner of residential and commercial work and the boom is almost always offset for trenching footings for walls. I'd go so far to say that our machine would be near useless without it ....either that or we would have to shift at least 30-40% more dirt to get the job done. All I can say is your experience must be based on different machines to that of which I have been using:beatsme If you are throwing rubber tracks on a regular basis there is something definetly wrong. That said: FWIW the next time I upgrade our mini we will go steel tracks with the Artliner pads for their better ability to clear dirt between the pads. I'm not hackin in you just that this is what these forums are all about, differing experiences, techniques and equipment.
Thank you Euclid! Really appreciate all of your comment; I am working in a US company with coworkers from all over the world so English is a must. Can not speak other language, but I think it’s enough for me. Where did you live as you said you have been Asia for 8 years? Have you ever been China? I am quite curious.
Bellboy, yes exactly, they make the 66 meters long boom concrete pump. Following pictures show this model in demo. Looks you are familiar with these China companies. Have you ever cooperated with any Chinese employee there?
Thank u Bell for the pics which make me very clear, This brand in China is called "North Benz" cauz they are made by a joint venture of China North Group (it has a war industry background) and Mercedes Benz. Their product are not so popular I guess most of them are made for the army. There are some pics in China road, looks not so fancy as yours.
Cool. I'm actually not in construction yet, I'm just an enthusiast so far but I know a helluva lot about it. I do a lot of research, and I've got the Powerstar/ North Benz assembly factory for Africa just down the road. These are the Chinese brands we get in SA so far: Jonyang XCMG Shantui Longgong Liugong Sany Powerstar Luoyang Yuchai Changlin If you can think of some others and post their names, I may remember some more.
those trucks look like Mitsubishi Fuso, shame the Chinese can't come up with a little better nose design for there trucks.
Thank you for your list of chinese brands, just add two famous brands 1, Sunward, which is mainly focused on compact machines, like small hex and SSl, you could refer to Hitch's attachment, a blue skid steer loader with snow remover. 2, Zoomlion, also a very famous local brand, whose products could cover concrete machines, portable cranes, road machines and earthmoving machines. More and more chinese local manufacturers are realizing the importance of brand. They invest a lot in setting up a local R&D team to strengthen their own design capacity instead of copying competitors prototype. We do believe in the near future our local manufacturers could provide our customers competitive options besides korean and japanese choice.
I remembered 2 more that we get in SA: Shaanxi, Dalian, and we get Zoomlion cranes too. I'm not so sure that ours are more advanced, but they cover the basics pretty well, what with a really comfortable air suspension seat. :notworthy Euclid: While the trucks may look like Fuso's, they are exactly like Mercedes Powerliners. In my opinion, Fuso's look more like Nissan UD's or the other way round.
Good job fourfeather! Those are exactly what I am about to say.:drinkup
Shaanxi, Dalian are two city in China, I think they maybe put these place name before the brand. I am not sure about other machine, but the China wheel loader and concrete machine manufacture have successfully piled out foreign competitors in the past 10 years and the domestic brand covered more than 90 percent of the whole market in China now.
Are you talking about Longgong?
Not really. Bell Liugong and Longgong are the top 2 biggest players in the wheel loader market China which both sold more than 2,7000 units. SANY and Zoomlion are the top 2 in concrete machine and crane market. （Zoomlion just acquired a Italian concrete manufacture CIFA to expand its business in Europe）
So you are trying to tell me that I should be looking for more Zoomlion pumps... Very interesting. I got an e-mail from my Liugong dealer about Liugong's response to the earthquakes, by sending a train load of close on 100 machines to one of the worst hit areas. Way cool
Funny, I know several contractors in my area that own mini excavators with both rubber tracks and swing booms and none of them have mentioned having this problem.
It is only common sense that when an incompressable material such as sand spills into the sprocket race , the rollers and sprocket will climb up onto it . What also happens is that the material gets between the gaps in the sprocket race and when they try to close up whilst going around the sprocket , they cannot fully . When i get off the machine to observe what's happening , it is obvious from the side that the track is now a larger diameter than the sprocket . What i then need to do is lift the track with the boom and spin the track backwards to expell the sand . It is also common sense that a lever (the boom) attached to the front of an object (the upper structure) at it's most extreme forward position will have more purchase over said object than a lever at it's center . And when you consider that the front idler and rear sprocket carries little weight as they are higher than the carrier rollers , you will see on my machine for example the footprint comes back to about 4' . That is what causes the machine to become unstable fore and aft , if you are also on a slight mound with the undercarriage it becomes a see saw .
Same here. I have owned the same mini for 7 years, a Bobcat 334. A track has come off a few times, usually due to improper tension. I have not "experienced" these issues either.:beatsme
On my deere 35 that I just sold actually, I could count the times on one hand that a rubber track came off, and that was always due to being on some nasty slope or rough spot.
I guess Volvo isn't very popular over there? :beatsme
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums SweCE! :drinkup
Thanks! :beerchug
Yes, Volvo Excavator is not a major player here but its articulated truck looks pretty good and sells well.
I just tell these brands sell well in China and you are the decision-maker to buy any brand of any country Yes this earthquakes destroy countless building and all of the construction machine brands donate machine&money to the disaster area. Liugong is one of the biggest.
Cool. i've been told of a brand called Peng Pu. I'm not sure that that is right. They make bulldozers?
Yes Bell, there is a bulldozer manufacture called Peng Pu, but very few market share and few people know this brand in China. By the way, major belldozer players are Shantui and Xuangong, have you heard them in your domain?
Hitch well done on keep this thread alive!
Shantui, yes, Xuangong, no. I would like help on some of these brands: ( follow the links) http://www.ecvv.com/offerdetail/I648204b.html http://www.madeinchina.com/2681395/product-5015085/photo-5963162/Backhoe-loader.shtml If you don't mind offering help on identifying these brands. I googled Xuangong, and it looks a lot like Cat.
These machines in the two pictures are actually the same brand - ShanGong (now called SEM), which was acquired by Caterpillar in 2005. Their main product is wheel loader, I never saw SEM backhoe before. It will be involved into the Cat channel with "SEM" Brand. For more information, you can check this website: http://www.china-sg.com/en/index.asp Xuangong had bought Caterpillar bulldozer technology many years before(government paid the money), so that's one of the reasons they look like Cat.
Thanx, but I can't find more info on that TLB, the Shandong one.
For the more information about SEM TLB you wanted, I visited the SEM homepage chinese version, only brief introduct I could get. It mentioned that this TLB adapted John deere's advantages , Deutz diesel engine (TD226B-4) 4cylinders, ZF transmissions. Unfortunately, no introduction of this machine in SEM homepage english version.
What is the construction boom in Shanghai like? Anything like Beijing?
Some days off to travel, construction projects in Shanghai are more like commercial use while Beijing are Olympic Games related. But so many projects in all of these cities like a raging fire..... Some pics show the situation.
Nice pics hitch, thanks for sharing. I was in Bejing last fall and rode by the "birds nest" and the other olympic buidings, abosolutely amazing. There is so much construction going on in China that the National Bird of China should be the "Tower Crane".
Really nice CM, I am working BJ office, hope next time can meet u in Beijing! As the Games is coming soon, some pics about the main competition place more than half are in the campus of Beijing's college.
Again
We have had so many chinese imports come into South africa, and it is hard to keep track of who is who as they all name themselves so similar. There names all have Gong in them as they are mostly manufactured in the same province. The liugong does look like a good machine.
Hi, Bossearth nice to see some one from Mzansi around here! The liugong does look good, I must admit, but do you know what trucks the Liugong dealers are peddling here, they say something about PowerPlus?
Did a little research on this too from a few guys I know in the business....good and bad English...Ha ha. LiuGong at http://en.liugong.com/ Is now the largest wheel loader manufacturer in the world! They were the OEM for Caterpillar for around 10 years then went out on their own after PURCHASING rights to certain Cat designs. Excavators are their own design using US manufactured Cummins Engines, (For emission countries Tier III) Kawasaki hydraulics and some gear boxes, Kayba Cylinders of which they have some type of relation with, Hi Dash Final Drives and similar components. They have been pouring money into the excavator factory and is now 4 times the size of just two years ago. Am told currently can produce 5000 excavators per year. The electronic controls are their own design built by themselves for all products. Earlier references to the earthquake last March. LiuGong in March, produced 4500 wheel loaders and up to 127 in ONE DAY! Further information, their engineering manager for the company is from the U.S., not sure of who he is, and the Excavator Product manager is from the UK. They are also getting excavator advice from a consultant in the US. Sany has more models of excavators than LiuGong, but not all are Emissionalized for export and beyond concrete pumps and cranes do not have a full line of equipment. Their excavators also use some Japanese components and European control valves. Reference the earlier questions on reliability. Go look at the components in most excavators today and the above names should look familiar. Will be interesting to watch this develop.
Hitch thanks for starting and keep such an interesting thread going. I have found it interesting to read, IMO for a medium size excavator (48,000lb) machine I prefer Komatsu. The pics of facilities for the games are awesome.
SANY now produced the 72 meters concret pump truck which was showed in INTERMAT, the wold's highest was came back to chinese again! Thank u hitch! Thank u fourfeather! Thank u all of you who dedicated in China constrction equipment!
Haven't been on this thread, but I will add some more manufacturers seen in South Africa DongFeng Kinland FAW (First Automotive Works?) Xuangong JCM CAM GWM I like the look of the Liugong wheel loaders, and the Kinland trucks. Also, there are a lot of HOWO trucks near the Mozambique border.
I found this link...... http://china.cat.com/cda/layout?m=315895&x=7 out of interest does anyone know what % of their chinese production is for the world market and what the quality is like?
did china ever produce any komatsu knock off excavators?
I haven't seen any as yet, but dig deep enough and you'll probably find that they did. I know there are planty of Komatsu bulldozer remakes.
how can you tell the difference between a knockoff and the real thing?
Haha, good point, but you know when its not the original when the model looks like something from a product line 20 or 30 years ago. The reason I say remakes is because, in most cases, they are. Trucks like the Bei Ben or Shaanxi (MAN) use all the old equipment and castings for cabs and what not from the original manufacturers, in this case, Bei Ben uses old Merc Benz Powerliner cabs and chassis, and the Shaanxi uses MAN F2000 cabs and chassis.
okay so something like a 2000 pc220uslc excavator likely isnt a remake
If its genuine Komatsu, its obviously not. But I'm not understanding your point...
i dont really have a point, more of a question. i'm looking at buying a komatsu excatator. should i be worried that it is a knockoff? and if so how do i tell
If it calls itself a Komatsu, then its genuine. Check everything like the makers plate, serial no. what not if you are worried about it. But if it says that it is Komatsu, then it probably is.
HI Guys. Sany is becoming a large player in the "yellow metal" market and their current product range for excavators ranges from 14t - 200t and they manufacture 20 000 units annually worldwide. Currently they have manufacturing facilities in Asia, Europe(Germany) and if I recall States. The machines are top notch in terms of engines (Isuzu/Mitsubishi) Hydralics (Kawasaki/Rexroth pumps) electrics (Siemens). All these components are genuine and carry factory warranties from manufactorer. In addition to excavators Sany product range encompasses the following: Concrete boom trucks & trailers, Compaction rollers, Pneumatic rollers, Crawler cranes etc. McCarthy Heavy Equipment import the Sany range into Southern Africa and to date the reliability and performance has been exceptional. In terms of spares and parts availability - engines not an issue as this can be sourced from manufacturer and engines are common in other brands (Doosan, Volvo, Hitachi etc) I have attached a link to MHE website and Sany web site. Do yourselves a favour and have a look. This is quality product and they will be a force to reckon with going forward. In South Africa there have been some horror stories as I am sure there have been in your parts relating to Chinese crap - some of that was mentioned (L!@#$G%^) and personally I would not touch this. I have attached some pics http://www.mche.co.za/ http://www.sany.com.cn/english/
Nice pics Rob. Where is that excavator working, looks like sugarcane in the background...
Is that excavator on the uMngeni water project?
BellBoy you disappoint me. Usually you are quite quick on the details(haha). Umgeni water project at Cato Ridge - the pipes are 1.2m wide and that would need a helluva trench. The Sany excavator is digging for a 40mm pipe. Location township of Mkhawanzi which is just past the Zululand University outside Richards Bay. Cane lands have been allowed to be to ruin and is reverting back to grassland
I have always been Cat faithful but this has been a really interesting thread. Iwonder how long until these machines (Sany, LiuGong, etc.) begin to show up here in Canada? Or are they already here?
True, that pipeline got some huge pipes, but here in PMB along the old Howick road where they are working at the moment, they are using just a Doosan Solar225LCV and a VolvoEC210B... I'll see if I can't get you some pics of them
Hope you will see lots of China brands emerging in your local market,haha
So true
@Doosanfan. Why do you like the doosan so much??
I've seen a few SANYs.. yep. Vancouver BC. Doosan is almost becoming the machine of choice around here. Incredible prices, and good reliability. The chinese are in the exact same position as Japan was in the 50s.. everything in america that was sold 'made in japan' had the reputation of being cheap crappy copies... but people bought them, and that put alot of money in Japans hands... and now japan is synonomous with quality, and cutting edge technology. It won't belong before we do the same thing to the chinese (meaning, give all of our money to them and finance all of their r&d and improvements until they produce equipment that is on par or better than domestic products).
Hahaha, I like them because: they never break down (well, seldom ever do), they are cheap to buy and maintain, and they are pretty comfortable and helluva fast too.
Are the SANY exc brand here in the US yet ? I saw an add last year in machinery trader mag and now its gone.
Just wondering how is the re-sale value of these Chinese machines in the market in China?
Hi guys! Long silence here) Are Chinese excavators and other dirt movers any popular in the States today? Here in Russia after CAT left the country couple of years ago, Chinese brands have totally occupied the market. But there's no used market for them yet. There's no record of their reliability, residual value etc. What do you have?