If it works out here's a few pics of a Hitachi EX1900 Boom I bored a while back. It came in from the mine broken almost through. One pic to show the bore welding is from an RH120 I did.
A few more. The bores are around 10 inch dia by maybe 14 or 15 long.Faces 16 or 17 inches.I had two machines on it for about a week. There's a pic of the boom and how it looks after it cam out of the stress relieving oven and another painted up ready to go back to work.
One more of a welded bore. Our machine differs from some in that the machine drive the welder as well as the boring bar. To swap from welding to boring you loosen one screw,pull out the welding bar and slide in the boring bar,around 30 seconds.
Ray you know what i think of your work it's the accent we need to work on
Hey Steve,I don't have an accent:tong Its you blokes that talk funny I got a nice bench job in my shop today. A set of D10 ripper brackets,those ones that bolt onto the back and take the tilt and lift cylinders.A company I bore for has a heap of 10's coming through for bare chassis rebuilds and everything gets done. Keeps me busy
Looks like you found yourself a pretty neat nitch market. It looks like you have the know how to do a great job, and then do it. I for one would enjoy seeing more of your work, when you have time to share it with us. Someday I would like to see all the steps and how it is done in person. Always like to know more about mechanical things.
Nice work Ray.
Ray i have listened to myself talk for 50 years and never heard a problem once. I talked to you 1 second and thought rosetta stone lol. Great pics as always send d10 pics. The one build up pic of the terex your 33/1 welding mode is .030 preset starting point?. Per rev how many thousands were you spiraling on . Steve
What do you mean by 30 thou preset Steve? Your talking funny again Depending on how far the bore is out I normally cut 2 mm out before I weld it.The machine has a 33/1 reduction for welding.I run 1.2 mm wire (.047) in at 4 metres a minute,around170 amps and 19.6 volts.I aim for no more than 2.5 to 3 mm to take out.In a bore that size I will be doing around 1 rev a minute.The feed through the bore is 3 mm a rev.
nice work... very professional..... what brand and type of wire do you use for the build up?
You gave me the answer threads on feed 8.5 tpi
I use a mild steel wire S6 grade.I look for a wire that's not tightly wound and has no wax on it left over from rolling.The wax coats the tips and stops a good contact. At present I'm using Weldwell PZ6000 wire. A New Zealand company but the wire is rolled in Italy.
any chance of a pic of the line boring machine itself? On that photo where you have welded the bore, do you machine it smooth to take a pin or is it the finished article?
Seems a bit quite here in shop talk so I thought I could put on some pics from a little unusual line boring job I do. I do these all sizes conveyer head pulleys for a company who has had trouble in the past with getting the bores machined perfectly in line.Misalignment has been causing the taper locks to stress the shaft and causing them to fail. I've been doing them regularly for 3 or so years without a problem so far. To get the alignment within a thou or two I use a tensioned piano wire to align my bearings.The wire is insulated from earth and carries a small electrical current.A pair of earphones are connected and when the wire is shorted you get a crackle in the phones.The difference between a crackle and no crackle is less than half a thou. The wire is good for alignments of within a thou over 25 feet.
You can see I put spiders inside the bores and adjust them roughly centre to the bore.I then hang on the external bearings/headmounts.I position them to centre using the wire and then centre the spiders perfectly to the now correctly positioned wire. It's not as complicated as it sounds. It takes around 2 hours to get the job to a stage where its ready to machine prep the bores for welding.
After the welding its just a matter of machining the bores to size and cutting the face square. The inside bore gets machined clearance on the shaft (4 to 6 thou) and the main bore has a tolerance of a few thou. I generally cut it down at the bottom of the tolerance to make the taper lock nice and snug.
Richard,the machine is the green thing on the end.Yes,the weld is machined to a few thou clearance on the pin or in the case of a bearing in the bore its machined to a smaller size than the bearing,usually about a thou per inch of bearing diameter.
do you need to feed some kind of cutting fluid in to the heads during the cutting process?
Ray thats a pretty neat set up is that a tension gauge on the headmount. When all the bores need machining what are you finding c/l of the wire with
It is a tension gauge.The wire is pulled up to 40 Kilograms to minimize any sag although it does drop 3 thou over that distance. The bores are usually only worn up to 10 thou but hardly ever up against the face.So if the pulley runs out 5 or so thou in operation its not a problem The wire is a good tool. I've used it to do the crankshaft tunnels on a couple of 36 series cat engines where you have an alignment tolerance of .0015 between bores and .003 over 7 bores on a 12 cylinder block.
Yep i like it as far as the sag goes ive seen a formula for wire lengths of 25 feet or more to compensaite for sag. sorry about the spelling that formula i think had a name but i cant recall what it was you might know. I have pulled string from other pins checking from one side to the other with a mark on the string and a fish pull gauge lol. It was a bent boom on a 375 michigan.
Nice looking work Ray! Does the round bar that the boring head is mounted to extend all the way through the workpiece to the other side or is it short and supported by the spiders on both sides?
The boring bar is long enough to go through the other end.This is not necessary for the alignment as all the support bearings have been set in line. I do it mainly to spread the load while machining over as many bearings as possible.You may have noticed that the spiders are mounted in half circle shells that I tack weld inside.You can't see what you are welding,its done by feel so the welds tend to be a bit dodgy.So I don't like to put all my trust in one bearing Steve,I'm not sure about the wire formula. The wire attachment comes with a chart so I just use that.
Thanks Ray....I think I understand. Sorta like the way a steady rest on a lathe would function.
That is truly amazing!
I've done a lot of these over the years.Did a lot of D9L modifications where we altered the bore sizes to take 10N bearings and seals. This one is a 9N where the bearing area has flogged out to the point that the circlip groove has broken out. Its simple enough to machine out the broken groove and weld the bearing areas and seal bore and bring it all back to standard. Whoops'Pics didn't load in order but you blokes will work it out!
Ray when you start on the 994 post the pics ive never seen one in person. I have worked in a shop and we did some 92's ground up but i have seen photo compairsons and there big. I dont see alot of bigger stuff around here i did mouses ear on 92 about a year ago thats about as big as it gonna get here. Does the 994 have collet set up on the boom pins. I havent done a lot of bores for collets the ones i have i always had a good side to go by. What is a good rule of thumb for dia/length
I will post some pics if I ever get to start it The workshop it at has a rule,no climbing over 6 feet with out scaffolding and harness. When I told them I needed to get up on top they decided not to do the top bores. So I told them about the 4 thou Cat alignment tolerance and told them they are welcome to do it any way they want but if I do it,the top holes will be done. So its now scaffolded up waiting for me. My missus broke her foot a few weeks back and until she's off crutches I'm working in the shop at home. I've done a set of D10 blade swivel blocks in the lathe and a set of PC2000 bucket end caps and a whole heap of other small jobs that have been hanging around.
I've hd this mill ordered for a few month's.It arrived today (at last).All inverter drive feeds and drive motor with a nice readout. I'm looking forward to putting a bit of work through it
Good looking and nice size mill Ray. I bet you will enjoy making some parts on a nice new machine. Thanks for more pictures sure is some interesting great looking work you are doing.
Ray you will enjoy that its a nice mill. 3 axis dro and power drawbar whats the table 14/60 thats nice. The z axis on the readout will be great for counterboring for seals and stuff. Ray have a look at Darex bolt circle solver goes hand in hand with your dro Steve
Its a 72 inch table and I think a 60 inch travel so I can get 100 ton digger dog bones on and do both ends without moving them.Its got 18 inch travel the other way.Whats the Darex dooverberry? This DRO does bolt circles and stores them once I work out how to enter them.With the old mill I either used a rotary table or done them with a calculator.I'll be spoilt with this one.
Thats good it will do bolt circles. If you are still using your old mill on some jobs using the darex you will have the holes drilled before you can get a calculator turned on if it has a dro
very nice job！compared with a new one,there is almost no difference.
This is a Komatsu WA 700 rear axle pivot I bored a while back. It was simple enough. I machined up a lining up jig that bolted up to the bolt circle of the tractor.Made it a little undersize and used jacking bolts to dial it up centre. It was a bit cramped working under there but it finished up OK. The bores take nylon bearings which seem to wear out bores quicker than anything else.
I enjoy making tooling for a job as much as the job sometimes. The komatsu finished up nice i have a drawer full of washers i have bored for my boring bars with differnt od's for quick set up then a quick recheck and bore.
That bore size is the same on the 8 and 900's so I suspect that jig would be good for those as well.
Nice machining ray. How long did it take to complete the trunnion?
I think it took a couple of days. Hows work? Plenty on?
work is steady. dont no where it all comes from but it keeps comming . so thats good. i dont go over 250 dia so there is lots around.
Pretty mundane job today. I bought this new WA500 bucket home and bored it in my workshop.Easy work,just bore the holes out to size and cut the faces to size.
What size bores on that bucket Ray havent done a 500.How long did it take? Did you tow it on that trailer? Ian
Bores are 120mm. I normally knock one of those over in 8 or 9 hours. Very easy straight forward job. I did bring it home on the trailer Theres also a PC2000 bucket waiting to be bored at the same shop. I told them to put that on too
994 Centre Pivot I did the centre pivot this week. I put two machines on it and knocked it over in 21/2 days. Pretty straight forward job except I'm getting to old to be climbing up and down scaffolding all day We used a piano wire to centre the bearings and all the way through then machined the top and the bottom seperately but still within 1 or 2 thou of alignment.
The piano wire gauge is a great tool for getting alignments right. The wire is insulated from earth and carries a 1.5 volt current.A pair of headphones are connected and when a mike shorts out the wire you get a crackle in the phones. The difference between a crackle and none is half a thou.We centre the wire in the top and bottom bores first and then line the intermediate bearings to the wire.
Nice job as usual Ray.
Ray Nice job that climbing get harder every year. Im surprised the loader frame isnt wider than it is. I have never been around a 994 but its a big one Steve
Those 994's are quite narrow. I remember when they first came out the tyres where a lot narrower and there was one up at Argyle diamond mine that used to fall over a bit It was also known as the "Moth" Everytime the workshop light came on it drove in And I am getting to old to be climbing up on those things. These days I would be happy to leave that work to younger men and I can stay in my shed and do a bit of lathe and mill work
Ray, that new mill is calling, your name. I sure don't blame you, always nice to work in the shop, and now with a new mill even better.
Hey! you could start a new industry....Mobility Scooter Lifts for the elderly mechanic :tong Ray, where do you get a reference point for the piano wire? Is the white stuff on the welds for crack inspection?
Mate,easier to just stop doing it Maybe not I threaten it all the time but they con me into one more job. Yes the white paint is where they have mag particle tested for cracks. They spent a few weeks on welding on this machine. In this case we centered the wire to the top and bottom bores. You can centre to any bore that you know is in the original position although with an artic pivot a few thou out of position is not the end of the world. Its just important that everything is in line.
At last I have a break from onsite work and have had a chance to get into some lathe and mill work One of my clients is building a new Hitachi EX1900 bucket and I'm currently doing the bosses and caps for the floating pins.I've been working on the caps the last few days.They are cut out of 50 mm plate by 270 diameter.18mm holes on a 220 PCD and a 42 mm counterbore. I had a slot drill which did the job nicely. I was a bit concerned it would be too big a cut but it cut easily
Just another shot of the slot drill
Do you find it easier to use the rotary table rather than the bolt hole circle routine on the DRO. I assume your DRO has that feature?
Yes the readout does do bolt circles. I just found it easy to use centre as a datum,shift the table along the radius and start drilling.I put a paint pen mark at 60 deg intervals on the rotating table scale so its quick and easy shift. I'm open to suggestions. In no way am I an expert miller. I just feel my way
Makes sense to me with multiple pieces now that I think about it. That would be a lot of wheel spinning using the DRO.
Agreed. You've done a great job I'd definitely like to see more of your work and the step-by-step process.
Looks good Ray what hp is your new mill. Does it use cat 40/50 tooling?
Hi Steve.The mill has got a 7.5 Kw inverter motor. Heaps of power.The tooling is 40 International. Just bought a tapping chuck for it seeing I'm doing heaps of threading. I've just finished all the 1900 bosses and caps and I'm now onsite boring the bucket.
Here's a poor phone pic of the 1900 bucket.I've done some weld preps on it and going back next week to do it after all the bosses are welded in. Starting a new PC2000 bucket in the same shop tomorrow.
Thanks for you to keep these fatastic pics coming in such a busy work, Ray!
Thanks Steve,what do you use for Line Boring machinary in China?
I've been doing some line boring but not having very good luck with my cutters. Most of the stuff I'm boring is about 4-5 inches ID when I'm finished. What sort of cutters would you all use and what speed would you turn them at?
It depends on what type of gear you are using. If you have a strong machine with a good feed set up I like CCMT inserts. I use them for 95% of my boring. http://tool.wttool.com/tools/Ccmt Inserts My bars have 12mm square tool holes which take standard tooling. You need a tough,not hard grade of carbide especially if your cutting weld metal.
I've just today finished the PC2000 bucket and the EX1900 bucket. Got the bearings in with liquid nitrogen so they are all finished. Here's a couple of pics of the Komatsu bucket. You may notice the pin arrangement we use. No fixed pin with a tail but a plain pin with flanged bearings in the bucket and retained by an O ring sealed cap so the whole thing is sealed. The pin can turn in the bucket or the arm,whatever it wants.
Here's a couple of the Hitachi EX1900 and also the "gums" that fit between the teeth on the cutting edge.
Nice work as always Ray. Not knowing what the factory setup looks like I'm wondering about the threaded holes for the plates that you make. Factory, or do you have to drill and tap those into the bucket?
We machine,drill and tap the bosses and they are welded into the bucket. The Komatsu and the Hitachi are different in that the Hitachi has wear plates that bolt onto the faces and the Komatsu has a one piece bearing with a wear flange on it.Thats the superior set up in my opinion anyway
Ray on the side wear surfaces are the adjustable with shims under your caps? That is a nice the full floting pin is a good idea.
Steve, the flanges on the bearing are around 58 Rockwell and similar bearings are fitted in the stick.We machine the faces to give around a millimetre clearance. No shims are used.They get around 4000 hrs out of the bearings without the bucket flopping around. When we changed to that system 20 years ago the miners we were working for cut there bucket boring costs by around 75%
Ray, Thank you for posting all the info about your work. I look forward to seeing what you are doing everytime I get on the computer. I did some line boring and bore welding for a couple years and I wish I would have been able to ask you some questions instead of having to figure things out the hard way. Your workmanship is amazing, your a true journeyman craftsman and I am always interested in your projects. Thanks for sharing your work. Gary
Thanks Gary for the appreciation.Glad you enjoy looking at what brings in my bread and butter Don't get to carried away with the flattery though. I'm just a dairy farmer who 24 years ago borrowed some money to buy a machine to try something different. My very first job was a D9L radiater frame mount.The night before I got a friend to show me how to read a mike and show me how to sharpen a bit of hi speed steel
Ray I was just reading your thread and you do some realy great work. Any updated pics from the last year?
I'll have a look and see what I got. I have quite a lot of pre digital photo's that have yet to be scanned. I have also decided to give away onsite work after 25 years of climbing over big yellow tractors. Its easier on my bones to do workshop work
This is a Komatsu 785 Axle. I've done a heap of these over the years. The workshop that did them metal sprayed the bearing surfaces on the spindles and I come in and welded and bored the 12 suspension pivot holes. Bores have to be spot on for size. Only 2 thou interference on the bearings. A thou tight and the pin won't go through and a thou up and the bearing has little interference and will fall out. Not my favorite job
Am I seeing things or are you runing 3 machines at once?
Yes, I am using 3 heads there but only one power pack to drive them. The way I did them was to get a set up welding and while that was happening I'd be setting up the next bores. When the welder had finished all I had to do was swap over the hydraulic hose (30 seconds) and start the welding or machining again. The gear I use does the welding and machining in the one set up so it allows quick pre machining before welding. Those jobs as I said aren't my favorite so my plan is to get in and out as quick as possible. If I put a bit of pressure on myself I can do one of those in 10 hours.
Very professional work RayF. You are a true craftsman in your field of work.
Nice Work Ray, If i havent told you all ready! i meant to thats for sure:drinkup Three machines!! i find it enough running one machine! would like to do it your way, should be able to soon as i m going to add another machine! Aiden
Here's a few pics of some pretty mundane work I've done this week in my shop. I've bored 8 suspension walking beams that are going into some large off road trailers. The other is one of a couple of Elphinstone/Caterpiller axles I've done the suspension bores on. View attachment 96259
Bit of of problem with the pics in the last post. I can feel a cut in to a thou with inside calipers and can't press the right button on a computer
They out of the Bulkhaul trailers Ray?
They are being built by Boomerang. Looking at the rest of the components it looks like a 4 rows of 8 set up. I'll ask when I take the last of them back today.
Took the last of those walking beams back yesterday. They are going into a 250 tonne off road float. Suspension is 4 rows of 8 and the prime mover is a haul truck around the size of a 777 or 785. It looks a bit heavier built than this one http://www.doughood.co.nz/wp-conten... Boomerang trailer at Stockton Mine 2007 .JPG
Ah thanks for that RF. Haven't seen a float like that, the one they use on site I'm on is a 400t single axle jobbie
I did once bore one that had 2 big single wheels at the back. They were on a pivot and swung away from the back letting the deck sit on the ground and gave access to track the machine on without having to use ramps.
Crusher Toggle This is a job a did a few years back on a 8 ton crusher toggle. Bore size was 500mm,(around 18 inch) and carried roller bearings. It was a tight tolerance but it turned out OK,onsize and around half a thou ovality.
A couple of the machining.
Ray, your a true craftsman!!
Nice work Ray, I see your setup is nearly as good as mine as shown in this video I took awhile back http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl_kXgxS6Fk Do like the King Rich bed mill, not a cheap item I know but the quality certainly is there.... Just needs to be CNC controlled...
Bit of good old Aussie ingenuity there RC Does the job and thats what matters. The mill is a real asset. Don't know how I got along without it. A mate has just bought a couple the same and one is cnc controlled. He says its not rigid enough to take full advantage of the cnc controls.
what brand of facing attachment is that?
Justin,are you looking at the pic on the first page on the 1900 boom? That's a Hofmann 230 facing head. Faces out to a metre diameter.
"That's Quality" is all I have to say
JustinE - Hofmann Engineering is a Perth, Western Australia based engineering business that produces its own line of portable machine tools, such as the Hofmann Line Borer. Here is their website - http://www.hofmann.net.au/products.php Go to "products" -> "other" -> "portable machine tools", and click on the picture of the line borer. Once the new page appears, click on the heading in the menu, such as "facing head 180mm DIA", to see the details. If you scroll down to the bottom of the information, you'll find a link where you can download a .PDF brochure. Ray - Have you ever been through Hofmann's workshop? That's a pretty impressive operation. I went through their shop probably 20 yrs ago, and they were rebuilding a rotor from one of the Muja Power Station generators. This rotor was mind-boggling in its size, probably 12 or 15M long and about 3M diameter. I can recall Erich Hofmann telling me it was worth AU$2M to replace - and that was 1993 dollar values! Since then, Hofmanns operations have expanded enormously, as this 13.2M drive gear for a grinding mill in a Chinese copper mine, shows. Hofmanns say they can turn items up to 4M diameter and 35M in length, as standard. http://www.hofmann.net.au/news.php
Yes Ozdozer,I am very familiar with the workshop in Perth.A mate of mine was GM there and works manager before that. I've done a lot of line boring for them a while back as well. Some mundane stuff as in big buckets and also a couple of Cat 36 series engine blocks. (crank tunnel bores) I still work in with them and help out with the R&D of prototype Portable machining equipment. They have grown enormously since I first knew them in the mid 80's. They now have a large workshop in Bendigo as well as shops in Chile and Canada. I'm a bit biased but their Line Boring machine in my opinion is second to none made anywhere. But then I've only been using them for 25 years I remember the Muja jobs. Another job that was interesting was a 60 ton shaft in the Danichi lathe that come from Canada to be machined. It was for rolling alfoil and had a 3 micron tolerance on the diameter over the 9 metres or so. I was there for the final cuts and measuring and it was quite an education. There most recent building has a 22 metre clearance under the crane hook and is good for over head cranes to 500 tonne. Here's the link to the Line Boring PDF. The D10 is my job as well as the Liebherr 994 Bucket down the bottom. My hair is a different colour these days http://www.hofmann.net.au/pdf/lineborermkii.pdf
Ray, just happened to see a new 350 odd ton Boomerang float today painted up white and blue (BGC decals) will post up some photos over the weekend heading up the road
Did the wheels look like they were in line
Probably was something else, surface finish most likely, be impossible to hold that tolerance over that diameter over that distance.... Plus a lot of big rolls are not cylindrical but barrell shaped as when you apply huge pressure to the ends the middle bows..
Well its difficult but not impossible. It was done and actually exceeded the spec. That's why it was so interesting to see being done.. The sagging issue was overcome by some simple but ingenious tricks and the surface finish was 3 microns as well.
Ahh OK.. Must have done it in a temperature controlled room then.. Makes you wonder why it was not done in the US if the shaft was from Canada.. It would make you feel a bit proud if we could do something like that here that could not be done anywhere else int he world...
What kind of bore system are you using? I like the idea of being able to weld and bore without changing machines out completely. I run a Climax setup with an older Boretech welder. Your system sounds much handier. I just finished strut and "A" frame bores on a 777. I had to do the strut bores with the tires on so it wasn't as straight forward as I would have liked. One other question, what kind of bore mics are you using? I seen the one in the 994 pictures that went around the bar. I need a set of those bad.
turn the lathe on end and no more sag..
Truckdoctor,here is the link to the machinery I use http://www.hofmann.net.au/pdf/lineborermkii.pdf Its made here in Perth Australia. The Climax and the Hofmann are both professionally built machines and each has its own benefits. For instance the Hofmann would be hard pressed to weld those strut bores with the tyres on. But on some other jobs the Hofmann has the edge. Those Inside Mikes are available from Hofmann. That one in the pic is a prototype they made me up to try. Its good for 150mm to 300. I have made them myself for up to 20 inch bores by just mounting a Mistutoyo mike thimble to a steel bow.You can set them to size with an outside mike and they work very well.
That job was way beyond my expertise but I remember a little of it. The tolerance asked for originally was 5 microns. A number of shops around the globe were asked to do it. I think at that time the closest was a shop in Japan who promised 7 or 8 microns. Hofmanns agreed to 5 but achieved 3. They ended up doing two shafts over time but knocked back anymore because the man power with that kind of expertise was being taken off other work. It was machined mainly at night when temps were more stable but they monitored constantly. The shaft was mounted on white metal bearings attached to the bed of the lathe and not mounted in the chuck or tailstock. It was turned by the chuck with a shaft with 2 universal joints. The shaft was turned for a number of hours to let the bow equalise before machining started. Also the oil feed to the white metal bearings was synchronised to provide oil films the same thickness either end. There was much more but thats what I remember of it
abitta nostelga for ya Ray
Thank's,it looks a bit different to when I last seen it a few month's back.
was it a refurb job Ray? whats the tractor 777 or something
No its a new trailer. I bored the walking beams for it.
Ray do you find that today you do work that say 30 years ago would have been done by disassembling the machine and taking the parts to a workshop to be put on a big machine like a horizontal borer? I wonder what the future will bring... Portable CNC controlled borers capable of threading and everything in between....
RC, I think at least here in WA 95 percent of boring work on bigger stuff like heavy excavator booms,sticks and buckets are done with portable equipment. When I started in 1988 Hofmanns had just developed their first Mark 1 machine and it immediately changed the way things were done as it was the only professional machine around here at the time. It seemed one day I was doing Cat 920 and 930 loader frames and buckets and next thing the first generation of Liebherr 994's were wearing out and all of a sudden I'm all the state over doing 600mm bores and 850mm faces on the swing box mounts. It was a very sudden and steep learning curve. And of course with reclamation work the fact that we can weld and machine in the one set up right where the machine died means that its much more cost efficient than dismantling and getting it to a shop. The 3rd reason is that sadly very few workshops have floor borers with a table big enough to sit a 30 tonne 12 metre long boom on. Hofmanns do but their machinery is generally booked out 2 years in advance. RCR have as well although they can't traverse 12 metres to do it all in one set up. So really all the bigger buckets from say 50 tonne up are done by portable equipment. Shops like Leightons or BHP will do the fabrication and repairs in house. Then send it to RCR or Hofmanns for stress relieving and the comes back for line boring. At one of the meeting I had with Hofmanns regarding the Mark 3 machine it was mentioned that the new model will be a fill in before portable line boring machinery will be going NC. I can't picture it myself but I suppose its got to happen. I suppose at present onsite line boring is one of the last jobs around where you have to have old fashioned manual skills to do the job. People coming through sometimes don't have those skills but can program a computer to do anything. I can't see it being acceptable in years to come either that you climb on top of a scraper gooseneck to weld and machine a steering bore or wriggle under a D10 in the mud to do the equaliser bar pivots. Interesting times ahead
I believe its tractor will be a Cat 785 ss
Well if one thing Ray looking at the brochure got me another Leightons plant number from that image of the D10N lift cylinder bores you were doing. One thing i always found in the tractor game is (if you can get them), earthmoving electricians, machinists, welders and even crane hire outfits make a difference when compared to just there namesakes, i don,t mean that in a derogatory way but if you can get those guys that are switched into it it just makes that little bit more difference that can sometimes be the difference between a good day and a bad day. You certainly look like the earthmoving machinist to me. Small niche world the line boring stuff and in almost 30 years of being involved with earthmoving machinery in NSW i reckon i could count on 2 hands the guys who would do it.
Gavin,earthmoving machinist's are a different breed. Its about the only machining I know. I was fortunate to work with some of the good old time fitters and machinist's from the older days who were trusting enough to let me loose in their workshops and pass onto me all they had learned. I'm slowing down but enjoy passing on to some of the newer blokes in the game a bit of what I have learnt.
Ray did you get any school training or is the majority of your experience learned on the job? It doesn't seem like there is much out there for training unless it is through a machining equipment dealer. I haven't had the luxury to work in a machine shop before I started line boring so much of what can be done with a bar I am still learning.
I did not know very much at all Truckdoctor. I had some background operating plant so knew how things worked. I also thought I was good welder but my welding experience was structural work. As I said previous I worked in some shops that had very experienced men who were happy to pass on knowledge. Also within 12 months of starting I picked up a job boring a couple of new iron ore stackers which was 6 months work. To do that I bought another machine and employed a very experienced machinist who I had met at a workshop. He worked for me for around 6 years and taught me heaps as well. Now,20 years later he is retired but still comes and runs a lathe for me part time So for someone wanting to get into this type of machining its a matter of having a go and picking the brains of people who know more than you do and also those that don't. You can also learn from looking at a job badly done or set up by someone else. Around here there are a couple of shops who do nothing else but earthmoving machining. They turn out some good men too.
Thanks for the answers and the patience. I'll chime in with the rest that you do amazing work. I had a chance to go down there to Perth and work and didn't take it. If I knew guys like you were down there and had that kind of talent, I would have moved for sure. One of my foremans from the past told me that if I wanted to learn real equipment maintenance and repair I needed to go to Australia. He worked for Washington Group and had a chance to do some traveling. I would say that he was right.
I work in power plants.A few years ago we did a power uprate on a high pressure steam rotor in a nuclear power station.The machine used was very similar to the one in the video link.I was a bit surprised to see that rotor being turned in an open bearing saddle with just an oil film to spin on.I still remember the balance runs they did on it,i watched a couple spin up to 400 rpm ,sounded like a 747 getting ready for takeoff.Very interesting seeing it being worked on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE2O1LJ7XCQ
Thanks Truckdoctor.Still plenty to do in Perth. Come on down Spent the last few days on an Elphinstone/Cat Lever. I took a few pics but left the camera in the workshop. I'll try and get them posted posted tomorrow. Also got a pallet load of Haul Truck tank parts to machine and another Cat truck axle to bore. Also got a Drake float suspension coming in that could turn out to be a lot of work. Its not the best weather here for welding either!
Heres a few pics of an Elphinstone/Cat lever I've been doing over the last few days. Not a site job but line boring none the less. Also a pic of a bracket off a haul truck tank I'm boring on the mill. Got a pallet load of them and a lot easier than line boring
The last two
Ray have you used the taper bore attachment offered by Hofmann? Does it work well? Hofmann is quite a company. I was impressed looking at their website. Thanks Ken
Ray your jobs always come out looking great. Whether additions or refurbished. Keep the photos coming!
No,I have never used that taper turning dooverberry. Its a pretty costly item and I have rarely had to tackle a tapered bore. I do know from others who have used it that it works well. The newer Cat Artic trucks have tapered bores in the centre pivot. Thats one application. I'll keep in mind about more pics. Most of my work these days is not very exciting. Knocked back an onsite job a few days back with 16 inch bores. That would have been worth a pic
RayF do you know if Hofmann sells line borinig equipment outside of Australia?
Ray; Your pictures may not seem "exciting", but I find all the photos in Shop Talk extremely fascinating. This is one place I get to see real craftsmen doing something I would never be able to see anywhere else.
Hi ray my name is Daniel I'd like to get in contact with yourself or your business I'm qualified fitter an machinist an have been line boring for five years or so currently I'm a leading hand at RCR but want to get back in to line boring would be great to get contact with as line boring companies seem to hard tack down Cheers Daniel
Truckdoctor - Hofmann have numerous overseas divisiions, including "Hofmann Engineering North America", based in TX. I'm sure they'd be willing to deal with you. http://www.hofmann.net.au/company_usa.php Hofmann Engineering Nth America T & C's - http://www.hofmann.net.au/products_15_termscondition.php
They do sell the Line Boring gear all around the world.Its all sold ex Perth. I can help with contact details if you want
Daniel We used to use Daw & Daw (when they weren't too busy) they might have something going? Daw & Daw Line Boring Services ON-SITE MACHINING & BORE WELDING 0412 089 755 Mosman Park Brad Glyde St Mosman Park WA 6012 0417 949 855 Craig [email protected]
It looks like Hofmann doesn't have much of a presence here in the US. There was only one contact listed here. Are they good about replying if you email the corporate office?
I'll send you a PM and give you the email for the right person.
On the bushing removal thread there has been some discussion about using arc air to cut bearing out. A large part of my income since 1988 has come from repairing bores that have been destroyed by arc air being used. It is not the arc air itself but the fact is, even some very skilled operators can leave marks in the bore. . These marks have a file hard surface and are very brittle.In components made from high strength alloys, cracks can propagated from arc air marks. I have an Elphinstone lever here at present that a client wanted one end machined last week. I told them the centre bore was ok for size but had a arc gouge in it and I recommended that the gouge be ground out and repaired. At a minimum the gouge be ground out and blended in. The bore would still at least hold a bearing without the risk of a crack starting. The man I was dealing with said just do the end. But now someone else has got involved who knows that they do break if not repaired correctly so thats one of my jobs next week. These levers are in the vicinity of 18K a pop so they are worth looking after and after all us Line borers have plenty to do without repairing cracks. Sorry for the long ramble. Here's a pic of a crack in a lever I done years back.
Thanks for sharing Ray, never to long of an explaination to me. It helps it all sink into my head, and make sense.
I must work with a bunch of hammer mechanics. It seems like many of them want to reach for the air arc instead of other options. I try not to use the air arc because being mobile machinist I don't need the extra work. I've pulled many bearings to find an air arc gouge behind them. Also if the carbon isn't cleaned out of the gouge you'll create a hard spot in your boreweld.
Hi RayF, Hofmann conacted me last week with some information. I was able to get the ball rolling. Thanks for the help.
Here's a few pics of the lever I mentioned a few posts up. As soon as I did the precut before welding I knew I was running into a mess. You can see the old weld pattern from a previous bore refurb. What the last machinist did was weld into an alloy steel bore without taking out a cut first. That means that the final sizing cut is right on the fusion zone of the weld. You can see the hard spots in the weld which is not consistent anyway. Unless you have the bearing sitting in a layer of nice ductile weld metal you are asking for cracks to start. Less than half way through with the welder I seen the black welding dust gathering alind a 4 inch crack. Had to stop the bore welder and I used a die grinder with a round burr and ground it out.Went down an inch before I got to the bottom of it.I was able to get in their with low hydrogen electrode and fill it up.
Nice looking work Ray....thanks much for the pics.
I had that happen on 777 "A" frame pivot bore. I welded it up and after it cooled there was a crack right through the bore down to the bolt hole below it.
They have a habit of doing that. The hole circle is quite close to the edge of the bore. Cat have got a mod where you machine that bore oversize and a hardened sleeve is installed and the bearing fits into that.
Great work. I love all the photos.... I always considered myself a heavy equipment mechanic (the largest excavator the company I work for is a new holland EC600 and our largest loaders are cat 980's) after looking at what you work on I think I may call my self a wrist watch mechanic LOL....... I have done many line bore jobs at work and I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface after looking at the quality of your work keep it up
For the life of me I can't understand why people try to skip a step (taking a decent cut to clean up the bore) before hitting the bore with weld. Like Ray says all you end up with is the fusion zone right where you want to machine when you're taking the bore back to final size. Refurbishing a bore is a 3-step process - clean-up cut, weld, & then machine to final size. Get over it .....!! truckdoctor - Cat A-frame pivot bores are pretty much a no-no for welding. The casting is heat-treated and will (as you discovered) crack if you try to weld it. Boring and sleeving is the way to go but you only get one shot at it.
I did find a few old pics to post the other day. But you will have to wait till I finish some house renovations. Work is dead here at present. My big job this month was 2 45mm bores on a Komatsu skid steer. Got a pallet load of haul truck tank components today I will start after Easter. Nige,is right. Prep cut the bore first. I built my business on it. 25 years ago all my competitors ridiculed me for it.Most of them are gone years ago
Ray - if work is quiet at the moment might this be a good moment to remind you that you still owe me those sketches for the 994 fully-floating B Pin idea that we were talking about the other week ....?? Also back to the A-frame pin bore. Liquid nitrogen is the ONLY reliable way to install the repair sleeve BTW.
I have some drawings sitting on my bench to scan I'm in the middle of house renovations at present and the inside looks like its been bombed and access to the scanner in limited because of the dust.I'll get to it next week.
That "A" frame bore was done as per the bosses request. Apparently the management doesn't know about that repair. I started out doing cleanup cuts and then I was pressured out of it for the sake of time. I have since gone back to cleanup cuts after I had a couple of holes peel right at the fusion point. Lesson learned. I've been boring a 993K bucket this week and it has been a thrill. The job is straight forward but everybody at the mine is in a panic because it is not shoveling muck. I came in to help the resident weld/bore man get the job caught up. FYI do not trust the Cat print for the lower cartridge pin measurements, they are way off. This is the second time in a week they have had the bucket off this 993 and it was the result of wrong print measurements and .015 too small bore for a cartridge pin. I'm sure you can guess the rest.
There is a document detailing the method of installing a wear sleeve in the A-frame pivot. I'll see if I can find it. What document are you using for the measurements on the 993..? I may have something that could help you. TBH I didn't even know the 993 used cartridge pins and I agree with you that you have to get the bore spot on or the pin won't last.
I've not done a 993K. The 992K's that I have done don't use cartridge pins. Are you saying its the old system like the 992C and D's (and 994) where the split bore clamped onto the pin? If that is the case from memory the bore was machined to the same diameter as the pin. To install, the bore was jacked open,the pin slid through and then the bore was tightened onto the pin. There was a spacer that stopped the bore from being over tightened but most ones I done that had been tossed away. If installed correctly and maintained it seemed to me to be more durable than all the fancy stuff Cat have gone to with the 992's. They don't seem to be able to get that right. Another thing I do with the bucket bores that take the collet's is cut them 2 to 4 thou interference instead of the 4 thou clearance that Cat specify. They still tap in easily and they never move as they sometimes do when cut to spec.
Ray, I've never even seen a 993K in the flesh yet but from what I can see from looking at it on the Cat system it's a bit of a half-breed between the 992K and the 994F. Instead of the box-boom of the 992 it uses a set of regular H-shaped lift arms like a 994, but some of the pins in the bucket control linkage (not sure which ones) are pressed-in cartridge pins like on the latest generation of 992K. I'll see if I can find some more info and e-mail it to you. Regarding collets I NEVER do what Cat suggest by putting anti-seize both inside & out. I just put it on the inside and they never move - but they DO come out when you want them to. Also worth commenting is that when a collet pin is first assembled and torqued you need to keep beating the bejasus out of the collets until it won't torque any more, then go back once every operating shift thereafter and keep torquing the bolt until it does not move for 2 consecutive days. They always move a bit after first assembly, the only variable is how many days it takes them to stop moving. Then, and only then, do I consider a pin "Tight".
I remember the early 994's having trouble with collets turning in the bore.Cats solution was to copy what some line borers were doing and tightened the bore size. Geographe bought out a modification that put hardened sleeves in the bucket and loader frame and just put a standard 950B type pin in. I checked a lot of new 994's for bore alignment for the mod and it was surprising how far they were out. Collets moving is still a problem in Elphinstone 2900 loaders and similar. The tolerance is 4 thou clearance and I generally tighten that up to size or a bit under.
The problem with the 993K pins is there a stepped cartridge center going into a solid arm bore. They are not like the 992 arms. Cat has been having issues for years with the cartridge pins leaking after a short time and they haven't been able to remedy it. I went to bore the loader arms and I was handed five or six different measurements for what the loader arm bores were supposed to be. The worst part was when I was close to starting the finish cut the boss walked in with another set of updated measurements that were different then what I started the job with. Needless to say I was a little upset. These cartridge pins don't take alot of crush. An 8.304"/8.273" cartridge center pin is spec'ed by Cat for .005" crush. I think it's 211/210mm pin size with .01 crush for those who measure in little inches. I cut the finish cut on the smaller bore diameter and then reset the tool and cut in the next step in the bore. The outer part of the cartidge pin that sits in the bucket is dowled around the outer circumference and is held in by a retainer plate. The inner part of the pin that sits in the bucket is a slip fit by the book. We will see if the pins hold up. I know they have two other 993's up there that will need th same thing soon.
For the next one either ask them for dimensions that they take responsibility for or have them supply a pin and all the bearings and sleeves that go with it and you can then nut it out yourself. Trouble is Cat will likely have a mod out that will change everything. They went through 3 different arrangements that I know of with the 992G. At least when they do a redesign they put out a service sheet which gives you the new sizes. With the 992K we could not find sizes on the SIS system for it.
I have a question for you Ray I was looking at Hoffmans web site the other day and saw that they advertise a flux cored mig wire fore bore welding I was wondering if you ever used it and if so how it worked? I tryed some dual shield a while back and it worked well in the vertical and not so well in the horizontal because the excess flux puddled at the bottom and snagged the tip as it came around.
Yes. I have used a heap of it.Its a very good all positional wire and a lot tougher than mild steel. In small bores say 5 inch and under it cuts nice as the bores can get nice and hot.In a big bore it chills a lot quicker and can be tough to cut. Bores last a lot longer between rebores. I've used it a lot on bores that tend to wear quicker than is acceptable.Bore the hole oversize and put a few runs of the Hofmann stuff in and that will fix the problem.Its a great wire for outdoors when wind is a problem when using shielding gas. The not so good things are its expensive compared to hard wire and much slower to use. You are only putting in around half the metal with it as its half flux. Send me a PM or get me on Skype at portablelineboring. for more info
I found some old pics of a steam loco that we bored years ago. The cylinders were around 16 inch and so worn that it could not be used because of to much steam getting past the rings. We bored it to 16.25 from memory and they made a new piston and rings to suit.
A few more.
Now that's just cool Ray. It's funny, not too long ago someone posted a 1930's LMS video showing the rebuild of a steamer. I think they were boring a cylinder and I immediately thought of you.
been there.. bored that eh Ray
Yep
Ray you do some very interesting jobs. I have some questions on the wire line gage how do you get the starting center point? Do you get bar chatter with the larger bores? If not what are you doing to control the chatter. It appears that you are running a 2in. bar, atleast that is what Hofmann site states. How good is the facing tool you have there? I have one that I am not happy with what so ever. I can face quicker by feeding tool bit out and do not feel this should be the case. Thanks for any input. Jim
Jim,the wire fits into the support bearings.You just adjust the bearings to the datum you are using as you would if you using a bar to do your alignment.Go back a bit and there is a pic of an inside mike and the wire. Chatter is usually a product of what you are mounted to,what you are cutting with,how rigid is the bar and how well it is supported. The Hofmann bars are made out of pretty good stuff and we have no trouble with removing metal using heavy cuts and plenty of feed. If you are hooked up on a light bucket that tends to flex you can add a bearing or stiffen the set up with a temporary brace tacked on. Our 180 facing head I limit to taking 40 or 50 thou off at a time. I usually use it on faces 6 inches up to 14.A welded face usually comes of in 3 or 4 cuts.On small faces I often plunge face like yourself if its on something that don't matter if its perfectly flat. Make up a carbide tool and you can really peel some metal off but its limited to smaller faces. With the 270 mm facing head you can work it hard.On faces from around 10 inch up to 36 you are able to take serious cuts and also bump the feed rate up to 40 thou a rev if you want a course finish.Have a look here at an old page of mine.The only pic that won't enlarge is the big head cutting an 850mm face. Sorry about not being able to see it properly but you get the idea. http://plb.iinet.net.au/jobs.htm
Ray, or any line bores. Can I ask what may seem a silly question? When you jack or press fit bushes what tolerance do you leave, i know the work i do is small fry compared to the work you and others do. As rule when as was training I was always told to leave a thou per inch. What i have found work best is or .1under or 4thou on anything or 4inch bore or .15 to .2 or 6>8 thou on any thing over 4 inch. Most of my work is around 50 to 100 mm. I was told by a well know engineering company in my area was if the bush is 120.15mm o/d you would bore to 120 mm. Is this correct method of going about it. And for pin clearance i usally leave 4thou or what the clinet requires. Am i to tigth or to slack on tolerances.
A thou per inch crush is a good rule of thumb but your boring a hole to 120 for a 120.15 bearing is spot on. Pretty well all bearings have the required crush built into the bearing O.D dimension.For Hitachi that could well be 120.2mm (good fun to install )or in the case of a Liebherr digger it would typically be 210.07. Put your thou per inch on that and you likely won't get the pin in. The bore tolerance for metric bearings is generally size plus up to .083mm ( H8 )for bigger bearings and often Imperial bearings have the tolerance minus. Example. The bore size of a 4.254 bearing out of a Cat 631 cushion hitch is 4.248 + or - .002. So according to Caterpillar you can cut the hole anywhere between 4.246 and 4.250. With pins a thou per inch clearance is OK with 4 inch pins. To make a better job you can give the outside bore in a bucket the 4 thou and make the inside smaller as once the pin is in the first bore and lined up it will go through the second with a lot less clearance.
Good afternoon Ray, Great pics of the locomotive!!! I have a couple quick questions for you... what type of flux core wire you use for bore welding? Size of wire and welding parameters? (voltage and wfs).... And what ever happened to www.lineboring.org ??? its gone
Hofmanns sell the wire. I run it at 3.5 metres a minute at 17 volts. I'll PM you with more details. Lineboring.org fizzled out. I think the owner lost the inclination and the battle against spam.
Some might remember these dozers. The first D10 which became the D11. On this one we modified the bore sizes in the cannon bearing and seal bores to take the bearings and seals out of the later D11N. They were a more robust design.
A few more.
This work fascinates me. On something like this D10 bore, how do you centre and square the rig? Do you ever get caught out on the metallurgy when welding something out of the ordinary? And how do you increment your cutter as you progress? On a lathe it's easy, but to me on those boring bars it looks like you have to unclamp the cutter and slide it further out. I know I'm asking a lot of trade secrets but this isn't something I'm ever likely to stray into at my age.
On Cat track frames I have a jig that centres the bar back at the keyway bores.Up the front its easy to clock up the bar to an unworn machined surface I used to get caught out occasionally but not so much these days.Make a mistake and its easy to remember next time. Yes,we unclamp the cutter and adjust it using a dial gauge on jobs like that. Mostly I can rest a finger,bridging the tool and the tool holder. Your skin is very sensitive and its easy with a little practice to feel a thou as you tap it out.Its a lot quicker to do that when chasing a final size than set a dial gauge up every time.
love the PPE Ray :tong
Yes,as you can see from the signage on the dozer it was a few years back.Thats my employee in the pic. I would likely have been in stubbies
yeh, no doubt.. been awhile since they went bust eh? my old boss was involved with the mod's on their remote controled under water Leibher digger
Thanks for that, Ray. If I'm ever in Oz I'll try and get a day with you.
I did a job a little out of the ordinary today on a rocket powered car that is being built by Roscoe McGlassan and team to break the 1000 mph land speed record. http://www.aussieinvader.com/the-challenge/ Simple enough job. Just machining a couple of holes through the main tube that will be inspection ports. I have in the past done some machining on the parachute tubes.Its interesting to get involved in a small way on a project like this.
Wow! That's awesome! It looks like you did a great job! Thanks for sharing these RayF!
Thanks, I am having a bit to do with a Liebherr 996 stick this week. I'll put up some pics soon. Also machining bosses and caps for an new EX1900 bucket and today line boring a 16M grader circle.
A few here of a Liebherr 996 backhoe stick. Bores at 310mm X a foot and around half long. I think there is a truckload in the levers and pins
Levers and pins
Makes what I do seem inadequate, is the bigger stuff easier to bore. Once bored do you checks the pins for fitment.
Its a lot less fiddly. I prefer it to smaller work. You have to have powerful equipment especially for the facing and heavy mounting brackets. Also because of the distance between bores you can't rely on the bar for alignment. Must be able to accurately align the support bearings.
Talking of the alignment is why you use the piano wire trick, looked it up on internet but can't really find any info on how you do it or its explained so complex you can't make head nor tail of it. Would be useful to find how extactly you do it? I take the tolerances increase slight due to size and wieght of pins but the bearing not much room for that. Your machine is Hofman would the be correct and hydraulic.
Yes we do use Hofmann equipment and have done so since 1988. My hydraulic power pack has an 8 hp motor on it. The piano wire system we use is accurate and easy to use. Have a look back earlier in this thread and there is pics and info. Have a look at that and and if you want to know more I'll try and explain it. The tolerances on the bigger equipment varies according to brand. The Caterpillar and Japanese gear are easy to machine for.Liebherr and O&K can have tight tolerances. O&K is the most challenging because they use very little interference on the bearings and there is only a few thou clearance between the fitted bearing and pin.So if you are a thou up on bore size the bearing will not be tight and if a thou tight the pin might not fit. Also on their buckets because the bores are so far apart,unless your alignments are spot on you won't get a pin through. I have seen some disasters where a line borer never took advice and botched the alighnment on a RH400. It cost him 8 new bearings at 20K a pop and 70K for a new pin flown in from Germany. Lucky he had a good insurance company! He still had to rework it at his cost.
Was just going through this thread again I know this post is old but I'm sure that's my workshop? Well the workshop I work in
Kurnall Road??
Can I PM you please to ask some more questions about piano wire alignment, and some other bit you use.
No problems
That's the one mate, have you done alot of work for that compnay? I'm sure I know where that loader is aswell. Dont suppose you can remember the unit no? I think it might be 59?
I did do quite a bit for them for a while.Mainly stuff like WA600 buckets.Blokes in the shop were good. Then the company ginned me around on a job at Laverton and I lost interest
Sounds about right...... They had a massive reshuffle, there are only 4 of us left in that workshop.
Ray and others here. I have been working around quarry equipment for over 40 years pulling wrenches so I have seen my share of welding and boring work. All I can say is you guys are like artists to me. I only wish management where I work could understand the difference between the quality of work your kind of people do compared to what they think is good work. We have a 988H bucket being worked on this last week and I can imagine what I will see monday when I go to the shop. Like cracks in the underside of the bucket with 2 foot long crack that will probably have a quick hit with a four inch grinder and some what I call cosmetic weld over the top to make it look good. Think that will last for a couple days in easy digging.
There is a lot of that mentality here as well. Patch up and she'll be right for another week. I keep away from that sort of work. There is no money in that and I'm in business to make a living. I've been fortunate that I have done most of my work in the mining industry where you don't often see quick patch ups. The job is properly repaired and its expected to go into work 24 hrs a day without worrying whether or not its going to fail.
Ray, I keep coming back to this thread for shear enjoyment. I have a basic understanding of welding and machining....just enough to really, really respect what you guys do. I know its the daily grind for you all, but this is stuff most of us will never see in our lifetime. Thanks for sharing the pictures and the expertise. Seeing you guys tackle projects like this encourages new guys like me that there really is no job out of reach if you have the right tools and the humility to keep learning. Thanks so much!
Cast iron Hi guys, The owner of this Russian machine doesn't want sleeves to be installed. He insists on building up the holes with welder and then cut them to the size. I was through the internet discussions and found two ways for performing the job: -oversize the hole, then use two layers of steel (S6) wire, then cut the second layer down to pin's size -use special type of wire, but not quite clear which one I am afraid of “weld material peeling out when bearings are installed", "You will also get fair under bead cracking", "nearly all cases where a heavy preheat, maintained heat, and post heat isn't done there will be a layer of very very hard carbides where the weld meets the original cast ". I'm confused. Don't know what to do. Any advice gratefully accept
Alex,nice to talk to you on Skype. Further to that conversation I take it you have checked to make sure its cast iron and not cast steel? If it is cast steel it turns into a straight forward job. If its cast iron the only way I would repair it would be with hardened sleeves. The only way I would even put Nickel welding wire on that would be if I could stress relieve/anneal it after welding.Looking at the casting thats not practical especially as your client is after a budget priced job. Hope it goes well with the job
I think we had about 50 hours in that job from memory. The pins will be 4140 or something close to that. The hardening is done with an induction hardener.Only the outer 6mm or so is hard,leaving the core strong and flexible.
Thanks....it looks interesting kit to work on. :cool2
Any new pics Ray?
Not much happening mate. All I have line bored lately is some 20 and 30 ton quick hitches so pretty ho hum stuff. I've done a good sized lathe job but thats about it.
Those of us with lathe's would like to see those pics! Andrew
I should be able to post something up next week
It's been a week and no pics! I'm in serious lathe withdrawl here! Welding projects only in the shop for the last 2-3 weeks. Andrew
I hear you I enjoy what everyone shares, Ray seems to have some very interesting jobs. I am betting he will deliver some good ones when he has time.
Moses had patience I have some pics I'm going through but it takes time.
A few months back we were approached by a long time client. I have done all their line boring for 25 years and now that I'm scaling back on onsite work I do workshop machining for them. They have a contract to bore a horizontal bore,4 foot diameter underground through solid limestone about 150 yards long. The plan is to initially bore a 16 inch bore with a steel liner as they can do that accurately with a laser guided machine. Then a follow up 4 foot cutter would follow using the 16 inch liner as a guide. As the 4 foot cutter travels it would be at the same time pushing the 16 inch liner out the far end of the bore. Our job was to design and make a plug that spigot-ed into the end of the 16 inch liner to do the pushing. As it would be connected to the rotating cutter the connecting shaft had to rotate within the non rotating plug. We drew up full scale on a sheet of cardboard a case with a pushing flange on it,with a shaft located within the case by a ball bearing both ends and a thrust bearing on the end of the shaft to take the linear thrust. I'll put up some of the pics of the initial manufacture and then if anyone is interested some pics of some mods we did to it after the client found that their job had changed somewhat because of tougher boring
The top bearing bore being machined (180mm) and the weld prep
The drive plate and cutter being matched up. Used my Magbase to drill these as the 4 foot cutter is to big to fit under my drill Also the shaft with the drive plate on and the bearings fitted. You can see there is a lot of other machining in it like bearing spacers,circlip grooves and bearing bosses. The cap above the bearing and below the drive plate is machined to take 2 lip seals to keep dirt out and as well I machined a course thread on the shaft at the entry point that carries dirt away from the seals as it rotates.
All buttoned together. It was fitted into a section of liner before delivery to make sure of no embarrassment later on. Not shown is a ring that will be welded inside the liner that the end of this thing pushes against. That way the load is shared between the plate and the flange. After this it was filled with grease and given a lick of Cat yellow and delivered. Its not done a turn yet and its been back in the shop for some mods.
Nice looking job Ray. :drinkup The size of things sure can be deceiving without any reference points. Looking at your first pic without reading, I was guessing about 8" diameter on the pipe.
Ray, it was worth waiting for the pictures and need designed piece. Thanks for sharing hope it all works for your customer. Pushing that much steel would make for a lot of friction. Maybe they have planned on pulling it from the far end to assist the boring machine. Be sure to share with how it goes and love to see any mods you have to do, also.
The thrust bearing we used is rated for 35 ton. They say they will need a maximum of 20 ton to push the liner. The boring machine is capable of 400. They are comfortable with our design. Hopefully soon we will see it in action. I believe the 16 inch bore is almost finished.
Great pics, Ray! Andrew
Looks like some fine work Ray
Great job, Ray! Sometime you take part in very interesting projects, and I quite understand people who invite exactly you to participate. You have big experience as the result of many years of hard work. During these years there were successes and may be some failures. Roy, can you share with us an example of a failure that helped you to make a rule for yourself - the rule you follow until now. That would be very interesting and useful for those who make first steps in line boring. Thank you in advance.
I can't point to one particular failure but like everyone I have had my share. The rule on failures I use is the first priority is to get it fixed. Worry about victims later. If the job is wrong ,admit it and fix it for free unless there is some issue that had been pointed out to the client before hand. Anyone noticed how quick you can fix a mistake? I've cut bores oversize because I was slack or I've set the mike 1/2 a turn out and the time it took to get the welder in,lay in a run and cool and machine it can be amazing Especially if its 1 AM and the job has to be on the truck as soon as the shop opens in 5 hours.
A little off topic on line boring but one mistake I made years ago. Assembled a 16V-71 Detroit and as we were getting ready to start it on the shop floor before installing after filling with oil started filling test run water tank. Something sounded strange. Pulled dipstick and was way over full. Pulled valve covers and found water flowing down oil drain back hole at the corner of one head. Seems someone forgot to reinstall the pipe plug in the top of the block before installing the head! Drained water/oil from pan, removed head, installed plug, re-installed head, checked rack settings and valve settings, filled with oil and water and started. All in a little over about one hour. Boss stopped by shortly after we had started the engine. Later on we did tell him what had happened, no problems he was glad job was done and engine was sounding fine. I'd blame Norm for leaving the plug out but was just as likely it was me.
Yes Ray I agree, I don't brag about my mistakes, but I never hide them, if I learn something the hard way I hope my boys and others learn it from that one mistake also.
My God verry precise work.I'm a heavy duty mechanic in nothren Alberta Canada I do not get to see machining work verry often. My machining work is done with a file and flap wheels to get bearings to fit after a failure. Any tricks for removing semi fused bearing material off a shaft. I've had good results with a light peening of the shaft at the problem area. I do most of my work out in the bush 200 miles from town. I don't have the luxury of line boring tools but do use hight tensile wire to check for bends. I have also used flat glass and blueing paste to check smaller pins it works ok. Awesome to see some attention to detail and pride in a job well done.
I'll put up a few pics of some extra work we had to do to the rotater. The client starts boring and finds the limestone a lot harder than expected. Instead of doing the whole bore on one set of teeth they want to withdraw the cutter regularly to inspect and replace teeth. This brings a new problem when they push the cutter back up the bore,how do they get it to find the 16 inch liner? So they ask us to make up a male cone with a flange that bolts to the end of our rotater. Then they want as well a female cone to go in the end of the 16inch liner so that when they push the cutter up the cones acts to align the rotater and in it goes. So we get in some hollow bar for the male cone 10 diameter and spin up a cone out of that. The female cones we had to make out of solid that come 16 inches diameter. All up we had 750 Kg of steel sitting on the pallet.
The female cones filled a couple of drums with swarf
I drilled and tapped a PCD on the end of the rotater and welded a flange drilled to suit on the cone and bolted it up.
Quite a project some very nice looking work you have done, Ray.
We're just getting cranked up with our line boring rig and I need to get some better photos of it in action. For now these will have to do. It's a hydraulically-driven Climax B5500 with an automatic wire-fed bore welder attachment.
The "A" frame picture is a familiar site. The last one I did wasn't that accessible. I would like to convert our Climax bar to hydraulic. I've had a lot of trouble with the Milwakee two speeds. I had a wonderful experience line boring yesterday. I was set up to bore the equalizer bar pin bores for a D5H track frame when I found something unexpected. A previous machinist oversized the bores and installed sleeves. Well when I finished bore welding the bores I noticed cracks forming 1/4 inch outside the bores. A little air arcing later It revealed the sleeves. That added some time on a hurry-up-we-have-to-ship-this-right-now job. It's finished now.
Our Climax machine has 2 hydraulic drive motors, both of which work on the same drive gearbox. One is for roughing, the other for finishing. Worth it IMHO.
Did you get those from Climax?
Yessireebob. Climax do 7 different hydraulic motors, all of which fit right on to the RDU. See below. I'm not sure which 2 we have, I will have to check and post back later.
Here's a photo taken Friday of the machine in action doing a 789C Dump Body pivot bore.
Hi Guys....if your have after a 4 geared system with feed on a rack n pinion...check out LBW Machines Ltd www.lineboringandwelding.com 1 One Machine 1 Setup 10 Applications.
Hi Ray: Awesome thread and pics! I used to work with a line bore fellow once in a while and was always impressed by the before and after state of components that needed his attention. The process itself was very intriguing as well. I'm trying to finish a textbook on Heavy Equipment and would like to know if you had any pics of broken pins that failed as a result of lack of grease. I had a 992 top boom pin fail once and use the scenario in my book to emphasize the importance of proper lubrication. Unfortunately I didn't take any pictures of it at the time. Thanks, Scott
Prof - How many pics do you want..? PM me your e-mail address. Truckdoctor - Our Climax machine has 39843 & 39846 hydraulic motors. We're using 2-1/4" diameter bars, we have them in various lengths from 6ft to 16ft long. The 39846 gives 36RPM @ 6 GPM and 60RPM @ 10GPM but with loads of torque for roughing. The 39843 gives 90RPM @ 6 GPM and 150RPM @ 10GPM with much less torque for finishing. Each motor is priced at around $600 if you already have the Climax RDU.
Hi Nige: I tried sending you a PM. Not sure if I did it right since I'm still fairly new at this. Thanks
I don't think the boss will let me buy those. He is still stuck on events in the past with the old B&D boring bars they had. They were hydraulic and he seemed to believe that they did not have enough power to do large bores. I know this is not true with the Climax. I keep burning up the two speed electric motors on ours. I approached him about converting our bar to hydraulic after the second electric motor but he said no. I've thought of replacing the Milwakee two speed motor with a MECO 4speed drill motor off of a concrete core drill. I doubt he will go for that either. Thanks for the info on those hydraulic motors, I will keep those in mind.
I was lucky. We had a new project and I was looking for an investment for the future. I looked at what was out there and then consulted both RayF & TomV who are regular contributors on here regarding what to go for to get the best bang for the buck, including options because I was probably only going to get one bite at the cherry. We came to the conclusion very early on that for the type of bores we generally come across a hydraulic drive would be the best way to go. Our system with the bore welder and everything else thrown in ended up costing us $80,000 but when local contractors whose boring equipment is positively Stone Age compared to this rig were charging us $15,000 or more for doing a set of 4 bucket bores we estimated the payback period was only about 18 months.
That's true. We are on the west end of the action so I end up performing a lot of small jobs. Rarely do we have a large enough job to pay for new tooling. I did get a new feeder, driver, and control box a couple of years ago so that we would have two complete boring setups available. Most of the small contractors around here are running ancient or really small setups so it keeps me in decent projects. This week we had a 590 Tiger rubber tire dozer come in for repairs with weld/bore work on the blade and articulation hitch. As I was leaving, a D10 came in and I was told there will be bore work on it as well. Time to wear out some tooling.
Thats all top class cream work Truckdoctor! Almost tempts me to go and do some more site work. :cool2
Hey Ray, just ran across this site and can see you do alot of awesome work. What's the job industry for line boring field work down there? I work in the Gold Mines here in Nevada and would like a change of action. Look forward to chatting with ya. Thanks Ray
Mate,at the moment Line Boring here is dead in the water. That will change as mines are digging so the gear has to wear out sometime. Send me a PM if you want to chat
Line boring Ray, thanks for the reply. I also was interested in the alignment tool you are using. Can you use that with Climax bearings? How much is it to purchase? I do alot of boing here I'M just tired of going underground to do the work. I just meet an Australian here in Elko from the company Wear Force have you heard of them? Thanks an talk to ya soon.
Hi RayF, Nige, and everyone else. I have a question. I've had a couple of D10T toolbars come in for weld/bore repair. They are single shank ripper frames and I have had trouble setting up bearings to hold the bar steady to cut these bores. The way they are built the inner bores on the left and right side of the tilt cylinder bores are covered by part of the ripper frame. I tried to set up to end bore but I was breaking tools left and right. I finally ran a long bar and ran a bearing in-between the bores. I couldn't get a spider bearing inside the frame. Any suggestions? Chadman1967 Who are you working for a dealer, the mines, or for yourself? I was in Elko three weeks ago to help our crew on a project. I end up in that area on and off. Maybe I'll run in to you some time.
You get the same problem on all those rippers going back to the 9L. Set the job up with a long bar and put your head mount on both ends. Get a narrow self aligning bearing/ID to suit your bar. Machine up a sleeve out of mild steel to carry the bearing.Put the bearing with sleeve on the bar between those 2 bores. With your head mounts carrying the bar slide your bearing/sleeve against the inner face of the outside bore and tack weld. You can tap it with a hammer and get a couple of thou if the weld pulls a bit. You can just get in to machine the inside bore. Just use a short bar and having a bearing so close to the cut it won't need a spider on the inside. It might seem a bit rough but done properly its accurate and gets you out of a difficult scenario. You make the sleeve with a good wall thickness so knocking it off doesn't damage it. You can use it a hundred times over.
I work for Atlas Copco here in Elko I do all the feild welding and line boring. Im onsight at Barrick and Newmont to do various line boes and custom fabrication. What company are you working for?
There’s a picture of the stuff I was asked to line bore There are some 16 holes 50 mm of diameter. All pins are loose. The guy wants me to weld and line bore his device (what's the inglish for this?). The problem is - I hardly imagine how to weld my bearings to the thing, and don't want to think how many times I should do this. May be some of you have such experience? Are there any other methods to perform the job (hand welding and then 50mm reamer with magnetic drill - may be...)? May be say the guy "No"? Will be very glad to get some ideas from you
Weld the device to a steel bench Alex. Something with a 20 or 25mm thick top would be good. You can tack weld your brackets to the bench top
Thank you Ray. Will do the way you told me. Hope to make some pictures and post them then.
I would call it a log grapple, not sure about anyone else. I like Ray's idea to somehow anchor the grapple to a steel bench and then use the same bench to work as anchor points for the boring bar. It looks to me as though the grapple will disassemble into 3 main parts, the centre section and then 2 identical arms. Maybe make up some sort of fixture for the arms...?
Thank you, Nige. The customer will deliver me only these two "almost" identical arms. I have a bench with 25 mm metal top and I'll try to fix all the stuff on it. Always interesting to read your posts. Thank you
I'm sure that if the customer delivers you the 2 "arms" and if as you say "all the pins are loose" then whatever you do will improve things for him. I still get the feeling that the centre section must have some sort of pin bores in it and unless those bores are also re-worked back to specification there will still be some "loose pins" in the complete assembly, even though not as many as there were previously. It's difficult to see what's in the centre section with the grapple completely assembled like it is in your photos.
If it is ok that I weigh in I would say that there are four bearing bores in the main body. The pins retain to the grapple jaws so that should mean that the bores behind them should have bearings. I agree with Nige that the center section should be looked at. I would be embarrassing to repair the jaw bores just to find that the bearings were broken or loose in the center section bores. Looking at the fact that the bolts holding the pins in are not broken or loose I would say most of the slack is in the center section. Hi Nige and RayF.
I would go along with that.
Hi guys, the central part of the log grapple has bronze bearings that are worn out as well. The owner of the thing insists on welding and boring only the arms. He has new bronze bearings for the central part and gonna install them by himself. thank you
Now I think what if there's only the bronze bushings problem? Truly to say I didn't notice any visual gap between pins and holes - they looked quite nice. Anyway I've already agreed to repair this log grapple "arms" (jaws?). I'll receive them by the end of the week. Now there's some other quite routine job. Thank you all once more.
Nice to know we're all singing from the same hymn sheet ........... Alex, after the bronze bearings are removed please remind someone to carefully check that the bores in the frame are not oval. Just because a bronze bush has not worn right through to the parent steel underneath does NOT mean that there are no problems in the base structure underneath it IMHO.
Thank you Nige, I'll check it. Never thought it was possible. I mean damaged structure with the not completely destroyed bushings
You show me any steel structure and I'll find you a man somewhere who can ***k it up............
Like I've said we have some guys who you could lock buck naked in a padded cell with a bowling ball, come back in ten minutes and all that would be left is a pile of powder on the floor. Ask what happened and the guy would say, "It was like that when I found it!"
I always say they could break a anvil with a rubber mallet!!! my other favorite saying is " when we make something foolproof nature evolves better fools!!! it never seises to amaze me how people can tear up stuff if they just don't care...
Workshops are full of the brainless. One of my pet hates is when I take a job back to a workshop and they go to unload it with a chain through the new bores. They soon change there minds
Sounds like one of our plants. Boss went there to pick up an used hoist cylinder for a 769D Cat and the "mechanic" picks it up with fork truck with chrome barrel sitting on the forks while bouncing across the yard! Needles to say boss said I don't want that one! He made sure the other one was handled a little better.
Ray, Be nice to these people if they had any brains they would learn how to work a grease gun and 90% of your business would vanish overnight!
Alex, don't forget to remind customer to get new pins also, they wear to. It still amazes me how many people want say bucket and stick line bored and want to reuse pin saying "it will be tighter than it was" ?
A bloke who I had working for me who was a top class fitter and machinist used to get angry at some of the jobs we did. It was obvious neglect and butchery that caused the disaster we had to fix. I used to tell him,if it wasn't for people like that we would be out of a job
Last week I was asked to line bore a Hyndai wheel loader bucket When I asked the guy what exactly he wanted me to line bore, he said:"We don't like this quick lock any more. So you restore the bucket to factory condition and then line bore it" "Factory condition": They cut all hinges some years ago and now want me to fabricate new ones, weld them up again and THEN to line bore. Isn't that fine? Hell of a job.
Thats an easy enough job provided you have factory dimensions or can measure another bucket. The geometry on those often needs to be spot on in regards to the positioning of the top tilt bore.
Hi Ray, I admit that the job isn't impossible, but I never did the job like this before - this is the main reason for me to refuse. And the last is that to perform the task we have to cancel others that are more convinient and usual for us. Later on I will contact them (company with Hyundai), and if they couldn't find anybody around to restore the bucket, maybe to take risk and try to do this? But unlikely. How's the life there in Australia?
Hi RayF, I'm a new comer to this forum and in the process of starting out as a line borer. I have settled for York Portable line boring machine as my entry level machine. In my location I will mainly be dealing with underground mining and construction equipment. My machine will do bores up to 6 inch for a start. What brand of measuring instruments and important accessories do you recommend for the successful running of this business? I strongly feel I can succeed at this, because there are few people doing this kind of work here. Every one is welcome to comment. Your work inspires me a lot. Thanks in advance. David.
For measuring I use Mitutoyo. I steer away from the cheap gear for onsite work. Get some Moore and Wright inside calipers. I get my outside mikes in 0 to 6 inch,6 to 12 ,they are harder to get in 6 inch steps but worth looking.For inside mikes I use the screw together type and my most used is a 52 inch set which I've had for 28 years. Longer is not much more money than a short set and can be needed when you need to parallel bars accurately.
Why bother refabbing the bucket? I doubt the load center has changed much and the weight can't be a big issue... just get some plate to connect the parts and weld the bloody coupler to the bucket, after pulling out whatever hydraulics are there. Make it solid, that's all they want yeah?
Hi RayF again, Thanks for the reply. I will look for those two brands. I know a local shop that sells mitutoyo, but for moore and wright I have to look harder what do you think of the range for my entry level machine? Thanks RayF.
You might find Moore and Wright online. They are the only inside calipres i have used that are any good for accurate measuring. I have heard Mitutoyo make good calipres but I've not tried them. A six inch capacity should get you started. It depends on bar diameter And how rigid your supports are. I'm not familiar with York equipment.
Ray F. I have really enjoyed this thread! You have showed us so much information and I want to thank you for that. I have just purchased my first line bore machine and will be doing the fist job this week. I have never seen this done in person but have researched it well on the net. I bought a set up from J.T. Dixon to handle 1 1/4 to 8 inch holes. This work is very interesting to me and I want to learn all I can about it. I have been thinking about the possibilities with this new machine and have one that I'm curious about and was hoping you could educate me on it. Is it possible to do engine boring on a v8? I have a couple old Chevy blocks (350 and 454) that I want to rebuild. Could I bore the cylinders and crank journals with a portable machine? I'm sure that setup would be the hardest thing. Have you ever tryed this or heard of it being done? I see it wor king in my head but I'm sure my inexperience is fooling me. Just hoping I can save some money since I I have more time than money. Thanks for your help if you can.
Yes,you can in theory.The cylinder bores are awkward as far as getting a support on for the bar at the bottom of the cylinder. If it was mine I would take it to an engine shop unless you want to do it for fun. Crank tunnels are another story.They require very accurate alignments. I have done a couple of Cat 3612 blocks and its not a job for the faint hearted. Cat alignment spec is .0015 between bores and no more than .003 over the 7 bores.From memory thats over a 12 foot long block. You need a full workshop back up. Very accurate support bearings that have been precision ground and lots of patience when setting it up. The first one I did come out 50% better than the cat spec and the second was on the upper limit. To nerve wracking for me. An error of a thou and you have ruined the block. Not sure what one of those is worth.
Thanks for the reply ray. I think I will take your advise and leave it to the pros.
Found moore and wright mikes and have sent an enquiry. From the machines have looked at and online videos have seen, I feel york will deliver. For this range the bar package will come with a 11/4 and 2 inch bar. May not be as versatile as Hoffmann but will do the job for a start. You have stopped posting your pics. I enjoy looking at pics from a pro like you and have learnt a lot on this thread. Thanks a lot.
Only get the Moore and Wright inside calipres,not micrometers. They have changed to Chinese manufactured for mikes. I'm currently scanning some of pics so may have a few more to put up sometime. I've stopped doing onsite work. The only line boring I've done lately is a Cat 930 which I had in my shop for 31/2 months mostly waiting for pins and bushes.
I will take note of that. As a new comer in the industry I cannot risk my work with Chinese tools. In this trade I think precision is paramount, so you need tools that will give you confidence and peace of mind. I am sure you still have a lot share even after retiring. I have always admired your craftsmanship ever since I discovered this forum. I hope you will continue sharing your experience. Will wait for the pics.
Moore and Wright are not what they used to be... I would stick with Mitutoyo..
Hi RC, What has happened with Moore and Wright? Has company been sold to the Chinese? A few posts up, RayF advised not get to get mikes from them, but only calipers. Anyway, I will look at both and make a decision. Thanks RC for your contribution.
The mikes are definitely chinese and nowhere near the same standard as years ago. I recently bought their inside calipres and they are very good.
I will go ahead and get the calipers from them. If an experienced guy like you says they are good, then they are really good.
Get a set of 6 and 8 inch. Get practiced with them. Set them to your mike and it won't take long till you are sizing your bores within a thou.
I will get that size. Thank you. My plan is to start with a 6 inch machine, then upgrade to 10 inch and later to 18 inch
I have no experience with their calipers only some of their other stuff that is chinese....No point paying extra just for the name... I take it Ray uses calipers as that is all that will work when you have to measure a bore with a boring bar still through the middle of it..
There are quite a few other options depending on bore size but all time consuming. Accurate, quality calipres used with a bit of old fashioned skill are very quick and very accurate.
Hello, I'm new at this forum and i'm impressed what some people can fix. i've done some line boring in the past when i worked for a boss, for example on buckets nothing really big or difficult and mostly on, high grade Weldox 600/700 steel (for example) i'm a self employed mechanic/engineer (hope i write it down oke). so i work on and for my own. (makes a big difference in comparing situations, you learn to think twice before you roll the dice!) Last week i bought a Elsa line boring and welding machine (which i hope i will get late next week) to do a big job on a L150E (i've seen the stuff that a couple of people are fixing on this forum.. i much say it's impressive what they can do. But for me at the moment the L150 is big enough) the loader i've got in my shop needs a full pin and bushing replacement, the automated lube systems hasn't worked for a couple of weeks, so it has a couple of worn out holes, pins and bushings i've got some questions about the holes where the pin sits stationary, if that makes sence. this loader has cast-iron (i know its not cast iron like your grandmother pans and pots, but an alloy, but i don't know how you guys call it) links, that needs some attention. i was thinking on: a: bore the holes, and then bore weld them (if this works, i'm still looking for which wire would work best for this) and then bore them to the correct fitting. b: bore the holes and freeze some hardend bushings in there. So the hole off the link has the right size again. there are a couple off guys i know who stopped welding them in, cause they found it hard to get the right connection between link and welding material, this might come because they use the wrong wire. i like to idea of boring them to press in a bushing, since there isn't any heat off the welding getting into the material which causes the material to harden, crack etc. There's enough material next to the hole to get a 5mm or 10mm thick bushing fit in there. here are some pictures off the state the loader is. my biggest concern is the bottom end off the lifting cilinder, i don't know how much room there is left to make a fix, but i know this monday when we are planned to get the whole thing out of there. the bucketlink is going to be replaced completly. maybe you guys have some good info on what to do with those links.
here's a picture of the upper bucket link..
Can't offer any advice on the repairs but could tell owner how to avoid this problem! But then you would be out of business. Sad to think that equipment is so mistreated just to save time and money then it ends up costing many times more money and down time. Years ago there was an oil filter company who's advertisements used the phrase "Pay me no or Pay me later"
The bottom pic of the bucket link is easy. Just fill the worn area's and machine it back to standard. On that bore I would hand weld the egged out bit then machine it round then put in the I.D welder and put a pass all the way through. Your cast iron bits may be an SG iron,not cast steel? Its not all that easy to weld. Any welding you put in there that has iron in it will go hard. Be near on impossible to machine and will have cracking in the fusion zone. So the options are to machine it bigger and put in a sleeve or weld it with a non ferrous wire. The most common is a Nickel wire. I use a nickel/copper alloy. Its a very expensive option that sometimes is not justified so then I sleeve. Often on things like bucket links its advisable to anneal in a furnace after welding to stop breakages later on.
Hi kshansen, I'm a dealer of Lubecore automatic greasing systems, so first i need to fix this machine and than i can put on a good lubesystem. So i hope i dont see this machine again with wear issues
Hello Ray, thanks for the info. The bottom bucket link is easy indeed. On the other links I think i will go for the bushing idea. Im not 100% sure if its just cast steel cause the parts are pretty light for the size off it. I'll keep in mind your idea tho off that non ferro welding wire. Might use that when i have a bit more expirience with more demanding work. Thanks
To tell the diferance there is a few different ways. You can try it with a small drill. If the shavings are a mixture of chips and graphite powder its cast. Very easy to pick. You can put a very small dob of weld on it. If its cast there will be little blow holes in it and if you rub it with a file it will be glass hard.
Im going to give that a shot tomorrow. See what happens. If it doesnt get to hard to bore i might weld one up to see if it works.
Where I recently retired from after 45 years they off and on used various types of auto-lube systems. The biggest problem I saw with them is too many people think they eliminate maintenance. Put them on and forget it. That is not the case, need someone preferable a conscientious operator, to keep a close watch on them to see when there is a problem. Then this person needs support from management to have system repaired as soon as a problem occurs. One very good example of these systems working the way they should was around 30 years ago we had a system on some 966C Cats that used 80W-90 gear oil in place of grease. In place of a timer to meter the lubrication it had an air powered pump that was tied into the brake system, hit the brakes and oil was sent out to the meter blocks and on to the joints. The weak spot in this system was the thin nylon lines running to each joint. One plant near here had a combination of a good operator and supervisor who supported him. If operator noticed a broken line he would finish loading the truck and then run over to the shop and repair the line then go back and load next truck. This is the way this machine was operated from the day it was new and when it was sold many years later due to high hours it still had every pin and bushing that was installed at the factory and was a tight machine. I personally removed some pins to reseal hydraulic cylinders and there was only a light polishing of the pins. I'm sure it had several more hours on it than this Volvo you are going to be doing several hours machine work on, just because it was not cared for by operator and or management! Like I've often said "I hate greasing, but I hate having to replace pins and bushings many times more!"
I don't mind it too much
Definitly true! Even lube systems are as good as the guy who takes care of the machine. You can win a lot with the way to build it up, for example putting lines somewhere they can be harmed. Be its still a piece of equipment. This volvo has a competitor greasing system and the service department sended a mechanic 5 weeks after the call.. im not saying the owner of the loader couldnt have done anything in the meantime. but i always try to help my clients out within 24 hours. another issue that doesnt help is that this volvo is the second loader at a factory where they make the component molybdeen. that molybdeen sits in quartz which is treathed with accid. Thats also why this loader has a small bucket and different seals than stock. The quartz is very heavy and the accid really eats away steel. But i'm going to do my best at this loader to get everything up to shape. as i said i'm just starting to do more off these repairs so i know i have lots to learn from "the oldtimers" It's almost a shame that its even hard to find people who learned by doing this stuff. Looks like all the oldtimers retired who had this knowledge in my area. So im trying to fill that spot. Luckely ive learned a thing or 2 over the years but i know there is still tons to learn!
Guess I'm just a lazy SOB, rather squeeze trigger on air powered grease gun than wrestle around those big hydraulic pullers and such. At least where I worked it all paid the same rate and there was more than enough things breaking to keep me more or less out of trouble.
I have mixed thoughts on auto lube systems as much as I hate the grease gun all the while you are greasing a machine you are looking around the machine and I have often spotted faults in the making and snubbed them out. as has been said it only as good as the loose link sat in the seat and the willingness of management to stop the machine to rectify a small problem before it becomes a big one
Like you said "you" would be seeing the problems as I would too. Same goes for washing equipment, you or I and anyone with half a brain will be looking at the machine while hosing it down and see the loose bracket, hose with wear spot, rust coming out of the crack and so on. Problem is some of the operators where I worked first off can't be bothered to clean off the grease nipple before jamming the gun on, then when the grease oozes out around the nipple because they can't get seal due to the dirt just think because there is a gob of grease on the machine all is good to go! Then that gob of grease collects even more dirt and stone chips so next time it is even worse. If by some freak of nature some grease does go in the nipple it will just ooze back out because the check ball in the nipple is wedged open with all the crap being forced in to it.
The big Cast links that I often see on excavators and shovels are made of Ductile Iron, patching them up is often a problem, the last time I had trouble with 1 of these links the owner bought some expanding pin things to get out of trouble, I had changed all the pins and bushings in the loader frame, this task was straight forward with all the bore locations good, this was possibly 15 or 20 years ago getting a bore done then was very hard as the tooling was not common. tctractors
You are right TC. The worst offenders here are Hitachi. Even on the 250 tonne diggers and up they use ductile iron dog bones. The first to go are the seal area's and they won't hold a seal. We did a lot by boring out and getting oversize bearings made and had them made to carry the seal within the bearing. That worked well. We also fabricated a lot out of 50mm Bisaloy plate with 4140 bores and had them stress relieved in an oven after welding. They went real well and could be re bored after they eventually wore out. But as with many big contractors they never used their brains and didn't kept the links when they sold the digger on. So we got to build new ones over again.
Hey guys, Somebody overhere have bore welded Ductile cast iron with a No-Rod FC44 flux wire? My weldingsupplier says this might be the best for welding in a bore. I talked to someone who uses it to weld pieces of Ductile such as the bottom of cylinders on the cylindertube. seems to be a good wire for that. Thanks
My first line boring job. Hey guys I don't want to hyjack this thread, just jump on since the pros are already here. This thread has made me decide to try my hand at line boring. I have many machines in our fleet in need of this, so it was just as cost effective to buy the machine rather then take them to cat. I have never seen this done in person so I'm going in pretty blind. I have always been a do it myself guy and I figured with you guys to help I would get this down pat. Well today I started working on a ctl. With worn out bucket pivots. The holes are only 1.5 inch. I bought a machine from j.t. Dixon welding service, it does hole from 1 1/4 Inches to 8 inches. It seems like a nice setup for starters, it's no climax or York, but I think it will do what I need. I'm having a problem with cutters, or what I'm doing wrong with them. The kit includes some different kinds but dosent really explain the uses. I started to cut an over bore first for welding using the carbide cutters, but I chipped the point off of them almost immediately. I'm not sure how fast to spin, feed, or how much to cut at once? After trying three cutters with different speeds and feed rates I gave up on breaking them. The other type I had was what they call a tool steel bit. It would cut with no problems but left a really rough finish? Again not sure if this was the right tool to use. I have a tool with the insert cutter on the end but it will only fit in my larger bar. After the first cut I welded it back up using 7014 rods, a real pain in such a small hole. Not my best welds but I think they will work. I have the hole roughed out to 3 thousands of final size for steel bushings. The outside of bushing measures 1.57 so I guess 1.55 is my target size for a good press fit? I figured I would go back with a cylinder hone to clean them up and final size them. They sure are ugly but I'm learning. I should have mounted a couple bearing supports between the arms to help with chatter, I know that now. It's hard to mount everything solid on such small arms. The worst part is im doing this in a parking lot at a job in 100 degree sun. Any advice you guys have will be greatly appreciated! The work I have seen here just amazes me.
A few more
The 30 thousandths under size may be a pretty snug press.... as for the chipping carbides, you're probably trying to take to much material out in a single pass.
Greetings Rustyratchet, There are several more on here that know FAR more than I do, such as RAYF and Nige, and others, but I have learned a bit and even built my own boring bar and drive. I'm willing to contribute if I can, so we all learn, me included....... It helps to make a preliminary cut in advance of your weldup so as to keep carbon inclusion down and help prevent hard spots in the welds, which will play heck on your boring tools. Carbide HATES chatter and interrupted cuts, the picture that you have shows that it is what appears to have happened. I know from my own experience that carbide gets expensive very quick, also, be sure you're using a grade of carbide for steel such as a c5 or better. I messed up and bought a few 883 carbide tools not realizing that it was a cast iron grade cutter, they didnt last no time. As far as rpm of the cutting tool, I was taught a fairly simple formula to calculate rpm for cutter tooling. For carbide, 800 and divide it by the diameter of the bore i.e.... 1.57"/800=509.554 rpm. High Speed Steel is half that or D/400=RPM. Speaking of HSS, it is most forgiving in interrupted cuts and chatter, won't break, but has to be sharpened often. the HSS that your picture shows has not been sharpened at all, it comes that way as a blank so that you can sharpen it to do whatever you want to do with it. Don't sharpen your HSS and Carbide on the same rock, Carbide has to be sharpened on a green rock. HSS can be sharpened on any grinder. just keep some water handy to quench it. Be sure and try to keep as neutral of rake on the cutter as possible. You are right on track in suggesting that you could have used intermediate support bearings, it will cut out lots of chatter. Sneak up on your final bore size very carefully, I learned that the hard way! As the masters on here told me, much of the time, the interference is built into the bearings, remember that your bearing will shrink whatever amount of fit that you are pulling it into. Hope this helps!
Carbide insert box should tell you cutting depth, speed and feed rate you can give it. Also you may need to look at grade of carbide you are using. Your in U.S. I'm in the UK so grades or numbering may differ, I use tougher grade for rough and harder grader for finishing. Although I switch to a stainless grade cutter for most it now as it keeps the cost down a little, not much but a little.
For smalll bores lkke that I would stick to HSS. Run it till the swarf just starts to colour and bback off a bit
Thanks so much for that valuable information! So when I sharpen the hss what shape should it be? Does anyone have a picture of one sharpened? What edge does it cut on? I don't know what speed my drive is turning it only says high low and medium. I didn't get much for a manual just a small book with a few pics of it set up. I don't know the grade of cutters because they were loose in a box of other stuff. I see numbers stamped on them not sure what they mean. I had to trim their length to use them so all I can read now is a6 k21. As far as size I messed up there and see that now, I wasn't thinking thousandths. So if the bushing is 1.572 what should the bore be? 1.57 for a .002 crush? Does that seem right? Can my chipped carbide bits be saved or are they junk now. Can they be sharpend till the carbide is gone? What is the application for the bit with the replaceable insert? Is it carbide too? I hope you all don't mind me trying to learn this on the web, but I really don't know anyone else that even knows what line boring is. It has been just the kind of challenge I needed , been tired of the same old repairs I do every day. Please have a wonderful day and again thanks.
Until you get a reply or two from the experts try doing a Google search on " grinding metal lathe tools " That should give you some information.
Don't buy chinese HSS bit. They are no better than trying to use a piece of keystock as a cutter. The best HSS bits are REX 95 or Cleveland MoMax. They are wicked tough and hold an edge better than other stuff. I don't know the new availability of them, but ebay has loads of new old stock. This thread has a ton of good info on bits and there are some pics of cutters and chips for reference. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/line-boring-best-toolbits-267214/ Here are a couple bits I use. I rough with a much different tool than finishing. For roughing the tool needs to have geometry so it can stand up to hard material and the interrupted cut from an out of round bore or a welded bore. I put a little radius on the nose so there isn't a sharp point to wear off quickly. This is one example of something like that: To take out a ton of material, I use a tool with a chitload of cutting rake. It starts life like a normal bit, but gets a trough ground parallel to the cutting edge. I finish the trough with a small stone in the dremel, so it's well polished. This reduces cutting force drastically. You can get a nice finish with this tool in clean metal if you hone a small (small!) radius on the end. I run the least end clearance I can get away with on this tool. Just enough so it doesn't rub. Here is one I use in the late to hog off material: Take your time grinding and don't be afraid to touch a tool up as it gets dull. I always hone the cutting with a fine stone, diamond stick, or 600 grit silicon carbide sand paper on a flat surface after grinding and for light touch-ups. I am by no means any kind if expert on this, so take any info with a grain of salt. Greyson
Thanks so much for that grayson. That's a lot of help, now Im getting it. The kit I bought came with Chinese hss of course. I will be getting the good stuff soon. Should I even mess with the carbide or just stick to the hss? There is a lot more to this job then I ever thought. Although it is a really good skill to have that's for sure. Any tips on welding?
You won't go wrong following those tool sharpening pics and the advice. Also if you are chasing super accurate bore sizes you can't beat a sharp hss tool.
hi guys, i've done some line-boring last 2 months, and i'm learning every bore! i've ordered some differrent cutting plates from the UK, and i'm looking forward to try those out, see if there is a difference in cutting speed and quality. here are some pics off my boring jobs. I did the complete liftingframe off a Volvo L150E. Had the luck that i ordered my boring machine and i was able to use one from a client of mine in the meantime. So i had to line-boring machines to work with. That sure made me gain some time! I also finished a CAT908 last week, which had never seen grease, so did a lot off line-boring on this. Also replace the steering point on the loader. and now i'm line-boring a quick coupler from a Volvo L120E. work seems to find me at the moment.. so i'm not complaining and i'm learning every bore.
here are some pics off the cat908 and volvo quick coupler
Nice! At always amazes me that it seems grease is not affordable but bore repair is? Some of those pictures I see criminal lack of attention. More work for you!
I asked one of the line bore guys on here and another where I worked if they worried that someday somebody would discover why just about every moving joint on equipment had those little fittings near them. Both guys said about the same thing. The more they do the line boring work the less they worry someone will learn how to work a grease gun. Back when there were two of us working in the shop where I worked Norm and I had a system we thought worked just fine. Every day after noon one of us would jump in the spare haul truck and run down in the pit and send one haul truck up at a time to be greased. Then same thing with pit loader. Did not cause a second lost time for production. Next we would have one of the loaders loading customers trucks shoot into the shop for a grease job. Operator could stay in cab or clean off his windows, top off washer fluid, empty bladder and in less than five minutes was back loading trucks. We had a plan we went by as to what got greased every day and what we would hit once a week. Thought that was working just about perfect about an hour or so a day and the main mobile equipment was greased ready for another day. Then for some reason the then boss got the idea it was costing too much time and or money. When I left about the only one machine other than the two newer ones with auto-lube systems got grease before it was stating to squeak while being used. Then those would get ten times the normal amount of grease to make up for the lack of grease, gobs all over the place.
Mud is not a loobrikant ???
yeah those grease mites shure do multiply fast. you would think that somebody would have come up with a good poison by now to exterminate those little boogers so they would quit eating all the grease up!!!
Its indeed unbelievable how people lack in greasing. Of course even the stationairy pin sides will punch out the holes when you work your machine hard. But there is a lot of issues with grease and just getting the grease where it needs to be. I come a cross a lot of problems with automatic greasing systems from other brands than Lubecore (which i am dealer and servicepoint from) and also the lack of knowledge to install such an installation to let it work and to keep it working for his lifespan. But it's all money for me! Lol.
Auto-grease systems are only as good as the person installing them and maintaining them! Problem is too many management types think once they are installed no further maintenance is needed for the life of the machine! I have seen many different systems over the 45+ years and they all had plus and minus aspects to them but none could replace someone keeping an eye on them.
Kshansen. that is also true, You got to keep up with some maintenance, but if you do there is no better way to grease. Since two months we can have GPS on our greasingsystems. Comes as specialy in hand when we have service contracts with costumers so we know when something is wrong (like empty reservoir) and we can call up the costumer to help him to keep an eye on those systems. Especialy when there is a bearingsystems that requeres grease, like forage harvesters, patato harvesters, shredders and other heavy industrial equipment.
Hello Bumach. Nice job with your elsa. It s possibke for you to put a couple of pics of adaptor between welding bar and welding cable? Its swivel adaptor. Thanks
Hello Ray. I see your facing head and i would like know if its possible to buy it in Canada? Thanks
Its made by Hofmanns here in Perth. I believe they have leased out there workshop in Canada. What size boring bar do you use. They are made mostly for 2 inch but they were doing an occasional batch in 2.1/4 for Climax machines. If you are looking at the larger head you need plenty of grunt to swing it. An 16 to 24 inch face will soak up some horsepower.
I use a 1 15/16" bar. Not for use over12 inches. Do you have a idea how much it cost ? Thanks!!!
Hi mink, There's not much to see. The swivelpoint is inside the bar itself. Since i got the newest version i have it like that. The older versions have the swivelpoint where the hose sits on the welder. So then the whole hose needs to be able to turn freely. My hose doesnt turn. It works good. Hardly have problems with wire flip. It only happens just a few times and i never put my welding hose straight. Just let me know if you need any pics. But you can only see a welder hose going in a shaft.
Ok. But when you put hose in welder shaft, if its on a quick? Similar on a air quick coppler? If it posible to put a pics of inside a bar and that end of hose she sits here? Thank
Excuse me for my writting but english its not very easy for me��
If your bar is 1 15/16's it won't work. But for 12 inch faces you only need the 180mm head. It does out to 14 inch. The cost of those here is around $8500.
Thanks RayF. Head is too much expensive for me.
It's a common problem my friend...
Now watch it some one could take that the wrong way!
Boring machines and accessories ain't cheap. I seem to recall we had very little change out of $100k when we bought our Climax machine and that was probably 5 years ago.
Hoffman quotes from Jan 2013 2-1/4" bar Alignment Wire Gauge assembly: Ex-Works $6,311.25 2-1/4" bar 180mm Facing Head: Ex-Works $9,917.97 2-1/4" bar 230mm Facing Head: Ex-Works $21,201.29
What's so special about Hoffman facing heads? i got a qoute off a facing head for my elsa roughly $7500,- and thats for a head 80-240mm
i'll take some pictures tomorrow when i get the change. the side that goes on the welder is just a EURO connector, like probely 90% off the welders will have.
Just quoting prices, not implying special! 1)...Misspelled Hoffman should be Hofmann 2)...180mm Model facing diameter range 51mm to 450mm & can be used in stationary horizontal or vertical milling machines with machine tool taper spindle adapter(s) 3)...230mm Model facing diameter range 51mm to 1000mm with optional tool holder & can be used for flange facing machines and boring, smallest boring diameter 235mm
Thanks for all the information & pictures, Ray you are a inspiration. When you get time please post more of your work.
RayF, you should consider writing a book about line boring.
I could but I think the market is limited I often get asked how to tackle a particular job. The frustrating thing is what look years to sort out can be passed on in 10 seconds. My on site line boring is about done. I have a couple of lathes,a mill and a couple of line boring machines in my workshop. If they can bring it to me I will machine it.
If you have a skill worth knowing you can either write a book, pass it on to apprentice or take it to your grave. I don't mean to sound too pompous about it, but everyone owes it to their teachers and to mankind in general to pass on their knowledge somehow. There have been plenty of books written on far more esoteric subjects than line boring, and what better legacy to leave behind than a published work? By the way Ray, this is absolutely not a personal rant at you, just a general observation. Quick, everyone write down what you know before it's forgotten!
Thank you,now you see it in print.There is nothing more satisfying really than helping somebody over the hurdles of learning something that you know and have worked hard to learn without asking anything in return because our payment is in seeing someone use what you helped them with successfully.Ron G
I enjoy passing on what I know. I answer quite a few PMs from people here and have also trained up blokes who are starting out. As far as writing it down it would likely be difficult. You could address specific jobs maybe but that rapidly gets out of date. How do you line bore? It really is a simple common sense job. You have a stable mounting system. Make sure your bearings are lined up. You make sure your bars are level and parallel to each other. Its not rocket science. And just like anything else if you have been doing the same thing for 28 years you would have to be a complete dill not to be good at it. I would enjoy more writing about some of the characters I've worked with in so many workshops. Thats what I've enjoyed the most.
Mentorship is a relationship in which a more experienced or more knowledgeable person helps to guide a less experienced or less knowledgeable person. The mentor may be older or younger, but have a certain area of expertise. It is a learning and development partnership between someone with vast experience and someone who wants to learn.[1] Mentorship experience and relationship structure affect the "amount of psychosocial support, career guidance, role modeling, and communication that occurs in the mentoring relationships in which the protégés and mentors engaged."[2]
I'd be interested to know if anyone here has written a book and can give any insight into the subject, motivation, publishing etc. Is KOO still active here? He's had something published I believe.
I have looked, only found some homemade book about how to build a home made line boring setup, I think 1000 $ US
For anyone wanting to know more a thread could be started. There are a number of line borers here using a variety of machinery. Im sure most if not all would be happy to share experiance and knowledge.
I actually meant has anyone had a book published in general. Not specifically lineboring.
I think that we are too damn busy doing things to write a book.LOL.Ron G
Off topic warning, a little. Well don't think it would make a book but often thought I should have kept notes about each job especially the odd ball ones. Like the time when I had just started working on this equipment as a young guy and was sent to the next state to check on a report of a 12V-71 Detroit genset not starting. When I got there they told me they had tried a couple times and it finally did crank over and start, but was blowing a little white smoke out of on bank. Called back to the shop and talked it over with my boss. He said if it starts and sounds okay hang around and watch it for a couple hours and let him know how it seems. So I tell the boss at the plant what i was told to do and he said sounds good. Cranked up the pair of 12V-71's that were in the same trailer and they started up the crushing plant. Meanwhile I parked my truck a few feet in front of the trailer to sit back and listen to the music of 24 cylinders of Detroits screaming away. About fifteen minutes later I noticed a big change in the sound and the plant foreman came over and asked why I shut down the one genset. Told him I had not been out of the truck. So we went in to check on the genset and that's when we found the the problem was a bit more serious than a little white smoke. A large hole in the side of the block with some parts on the outside that should be on the inside! Called back to the shop again and told the boss, he said well help them unhook it and pull it out of the trailer and we will have a truck there the next day. To make the story a little shorter, the problem was that it had rained hard all weekend and the exhaust system left something to be desired. Water down the stack and hydrostatic lock of the engine whe they bumped it enough to get it to finally start it bent the rod on on cylinder. This caused low compression that gave the white smoke. New block and a couple rods and such and got to rebuild my first 12V-71.
I made reference to this once before in my comments on this board and not being too proud of it I don't blab it around much and better yet I hoped noone reads it much either but when I worked for the concrete producer as a driver (my job description changed over the years) we were slow one day so I backed the loader (a Trojan 4000)up close enough to the wash rack so that I could hose it down and look busy while waiting for my turn to deliver a load some where partly and partly to hear that 853 Detroit make its beautiful music while turning 2800 RPM as it got everybodies attention to stay out of the way. Well,to those that have seen them,the two exhaust pipes from the engine curl out through the engine nacelle into one muffler mounted on the side of it and exit from the muffler in a balogna cut single pipe that could hold a lot of water until it seeps back into the engine exhaust manifold and whichever cylinders happened to have some valves opened waiting for some innocent operator to attempt to fire it up and the hydrostatic lock that resulted was followed by a ride to the dealer for a rebuild.I never heard anything about it because noone there had a suspicion what caused it and I was not about to say anything but I wondered while I was doing it if I might regret it.Well.......I still do.There....I said it again.Ron G
it was easy for me to get a book published because i had written the story and mailed them out for people to enjoy. i live at the end of the world and all it took was the publisher sending me a disc that contained the pages for a the book. i put the words on the pages and adjusted a few things then sent them the disc. then they printed a rough copy book for proof reading and once everyone agreed then a run of 200 books was printed. now 10 years later i just phone them with a credit card and both my books are printed and shipped to me in 4 weeks time. it is very easy and i never thought i would be a published author but th ecomputer makes me look smart, lol. thansk KoO Published Author
Yair . . . . If anyone is interested I can give an insight into conventional publishing on a TGIF thread. I'm no expert but have had books, articles and essays published for money. These days it's a miserable cut throat business and "who you know" can be more important than how well you write. Producing a book ready for publication is a laborious process and I have worn out many printers on hundreds of drafts. King of Obsoletes experience as described is "different" in as much as anyone can get anything published if they are prepared to pay the publisher and sell the books from a website, markets or even door to door. For many folks this is a very viable option and King of Obsoletes books are a classic case in point . . . they are an interesting read but may have been difficult to sell for upfront money and royalties . . . the niche market syndrome. Cheers.
Well, come on then. Spill the beans!
Question for RayF, Hitachi bushing interference-fits 0.0035” per in diameter, how are the OEM bushings installed @ time of manufacture?
I'm sure that Ray will confirm htis but AFAIK liquid nitrogen is the only thing that will work to give you enough shrink on Hitachi bushings to get them in the bore without damaging them in the process. It certainly was the case on our 3600 machines anyway and even then we always had a big cylinder stnading by to press the bush in the last bit if it got tight before it was fully home.
Stan, I'm not 100% sure. I have been through a boom,stick and bucket plant in Jakarta but didn't see them fitting bearings. I have never seen any marks in Hitachi bores that would result from pressing.. The only thing left is heating the bore and liquid nitrogen. Hitachi bearings with 35 to 40 thou crush in my experiance are 250 mm and up. A good even heat to 250C and the bearing in nitrogen till its stopped boiling and they will fall in. I find the harder ones to fit are the small Hitachis. A 115mm bearing and 9 thou crush is a challenge.
(Oops, delayed post) StanRUS, that is an incredible amount of interference and a very good question...it would be neat to actually see the procedure done unless it's just a big honking pressing operation! Regards, Bob
Edit. Stan,my opologies. The larger Hitachi bearings are 0.35 to 0.4 mm interference not 35 thou as I said. I was watching TV as I answered That of course converts to 14 to 16 thou. If the client wanted to fit their own bearing and the fitters were nervous I would sometimes cut the bores to the top of the tolerance. From memory its H8 and thats about 3 thou up on a 250 mm diameter from memory.
Does liquid nitrogen embrittle the bushings? Or, really does it embrittle them enough to make it hard to install them?
When done properly the bushing will literally slip into place or at worst a couple taps with a soft faced mallet. With dry ice I have at times put 20 ton on a 3 inch bushing to no ill effect. They will of course chip or crack more easily when chilled like that, but it's only temporary.
Normaly the bushing wont damage with the cold. Its a bit more easy to chip when chilled to -180c but after it heats up the metal goes back to the same strenght etc. Not like with heating steel that the moleculair structure will change. With cold it stays the same only the inside tension will go up a bit cause off the cold but that goes away when it is back on normal temp. I have made a video thats on my facebook. How easy the bushings slide in. I cant seem to get the link from that video to post it. But there are a few videos on youtube too about this. Atleast i watched them before i bought my nitrogen canister. Good luck
I don't like whacking them when they are cold. I broke the flange off a PC1200 bucket bearing years ago. That cost me 1500 bucks. A handy formulae for steel bearings in liquid nitrogen. The bearing will shrink very close to 2 thou for every inch of diameter. Bronze bearings shrink 4 thou per inch of diameter. The dry ice is not so effective. Nitrogen is -196C and dry ice is -50C
as Ray says with liquid nitrogen you want the bearings to pretty much slide (or fall) into place without having to beat on them too much. My preferred method was always a 6" x 6" hardwood block a couple of feet long rather than a FBH if they needed a bit of persuasion.
I had cracked a bearing to but lucky for me it was only €70,-! That sucks on that big bearing!
Ok, thanks, that's about what I figured. And I guess when you pull it out of the N, and put it in the bore, it starts heating up fast.
Yep, hesitation is your enemy here, don't rush but be confident.
True! I always mad sure when I had to assemble something using either heat or cold or a combination of the two I made sure I had something handy to "encourage" the parts to go together. 99% of the time it was not needed. But for sure if the 1% of the time you did not have something as simple as a dead blow hammer right at hand the parts would bind up and by the time you ran to the tool box for it the temperature would have stabilized and you were out of luck.
Plenty here have been there,done that I take to get all my ducks in a row as well. With big diameter bearings with lots of crush I make sure the whole area around the bore is evenly heated. I'll often leave the bore for a few minutes to let the temperature equalise before I try the bearing. Have a hammer and and tools right there. You sometimes don't have time to go pick it up. Just before fitting wipe the bore out with a oily rag. A bit of grinding dust is enough to jam the bearing. Pull the bearing out of the nitrogen and without rushing present it into the bore. Rotate the bearing while lining it up and it will self align and slide in . If it wants to hang up I never force it. Get it out and back in the nitrogen and heat the bore a bit more. I used to do many new buckets for some clients who were Italian and good friends. Mario used to help me fit the bearings. On something like a EX2500 bucket he would be heating bores and I'd be following along throwing the bearings in. Mario used to get very panicky and excited and was petrified one was going to get stuck half way. I would take a bit of an advantage and pretend the bearing was sticking. The antics and jumping around would bring the workshop to a standstill as they watched the performance Once after I had him going I slid the bearing home and he all but collapsed with relief. So I said,see Mario,heaps of time and pulled it out again. He went off like a firecracker
Thanks for the replies Ray et al
That's good to know Ray about rotating the bearing as you drop it in, I will definitely make that a practice! Regards, Bob
Hi guys, just want to see what you guys come up for ideas. I've done some line-boring on a Liebherr 984 few weeks back. The boom is special made and the front off the stick (bucket side) is made with the dimensions off a Hitachi 670 excavator. they are digging up gravel, bucket is 4,5m3 With the repair few weeks back just had to do a bore repair on the mainbucket pin/bushing. Nothing fancy and everything is superb on this level. The issue is that this is the first time this excavator is digging 10-12mtr deep underwater(stick is completely submursed), normaly this one stays on the dry and scoops until it hits water.. Now we are having some issues with keeping the grease where it should be. Also (offcourse after you almost lost two nights off sleep due, off thinking what the hack could went wrong with the repair) they had some issues with the Lincoln system which didn't gave enough pressure anymore. So it's hard for me to judge at the moment wether the water coming in comes from not enough grease or the construction is just not good enough. but i would like to have perhaps some options because now those guys have the holidays and i would be able to work on it for a few weeks. with the repair i shimed it out nice and tight and now i saw one shim was already pretty beatened up. At that time i didn't had my facing head yet so i flatened the faces with a grinder, which i did a dozen times before and never given me an issue. (however is this the hardest enviroment gravel and water wise i had my repaired machines in) but off course when i need to fix or upgrade it i will use the facing head :notworthy to make everything even better. The thing is at this moment is that in the stick there is just the standard pins and bushings and seals from Hitachi. i'm now looking for ideas how to improve this seal, so it keeps water from penetrating into the middle section. I've rebuild the greasing systems on two off the Hitachi Starfish from Jan de Nul and from a few other dredgers when i still did some work for Groeneveld so i would like to adapt the greasesystem on the Liebherr to grease the bucketpin from the middle section instead off straight into the half off the bushing. I know this will probely solve 90% off the water entering problem. But i cant seem to get the costumer thinking the same way.. and i would like to have an solution where the water stays out even better if posibble. Also i do think the 670 front might be a bit on the light side off bushings size etc for a 135ton excavator(with 28mtr off reach i know it would be pretty much the same weight as a 670 might be able to lift) the problem with digging underwater is that the gravel will get between everything and you cant see that on the digging computer so it will brake lines etc etc. Also it's hard to keep the o-rings in there with all that gravel and stuff, which isn't a good thing to start with. Normaly on a clambshell bucket(for dredging) for example they will have a seal with a big lip so it allowes for some axualiry play and they then put a big hoseclamb over this to protect it as much as possible. On a clambshelll these bushings are pretty high from the bucketknive so not so much gravel will be attacking these parts as is in my situation. to get it watertight my first idea was to use the same seals as Volvo uses on their wheelloaders, those are the blue ones which are where normaly the thick o-ring would sits. But i think they are way to weak to stay in one piece in the gravel. Maybe the solution needs to be where the normal seal sits (next to the bushing) atleast its harder for gravel to get down that far. Also i would like to see if i can get some hardened shims quick to upgrade the normal shims. Would be nice to hear the ideas or experiences:notworthy
BuMach, you are in quite a predicament I of course have absolutely no experience with this phenomenon, but in my mind it seems you are on the right track with trying to convince the owner that you have to create a higher constant positive pressure inside the pin to bushing cavity to at least keep the water out at 30+ feet below the surface (whatever the water pressure is at that depth?), and as far as the aggregate infiltrating I have little doubt that you will get it figured out though:drinkup Regards, Bob
I don't have much helpful information, but 33' of water creates one atmosphere of pressure.
Bumac,if you look at this pic in post number 65 you will see the bucket fitted up with flanged bearings. The stick is also fitted with the same bearings. We machine the set up with about a millimeter clearance on the faces. The outside of the flange is beveled and a O ring sits in there. The O ring is double the thickness of the bearing flange. On the earlier first model Liebherr 974's and 84's they had a steel cast ring that bolted in two halves over the O rings to protect them.It would be easy enough to make something similar. I don't believe shims will ever work in that application. You need hardened flanges and tight fits and good sealing to work. The above set up has that. You can also see the caps on the outside that are O ring sealed. That keeps the grease where it belongs. When we started using this system we increased hours between line boring at least 4 fold.
Yair . . . I am constantly amazed at the work you line boring folks do and there is a case for precision. However. When I first came down from the bush I worked for a while on canal job where they were loading mangrove mud into sledges with an 1100 Kato working on mats. The sledges were pulled by Komatsu swamp dozers and tipped by a Michigan loader or a linkbelt excavator. Needless to say the pins on the 1100 working in mud and twenty feet of water gave a lot of grief. We rebuilt the end of the stick to take a piece of heavy wall tube stock bored I think to four inches and held on to the end of the stick with two pieces of three quarter by three inch flat bar the same length as the tube welded as a bridge between the OD of the tube and the flat end of the stick. The bucked was fitted with the same tube held on in a similar fashion and the pin was slipped in and a piece of inch by inch square bar weld across each end leaving the pin free to float . . . the rod end of the ram was modified in a similar fashion. In short the pin was about twice the diameter of the original and there was about two feet of wear area. they were not greased They were let go to maybe half inch slop which took a couple of month and two blokes could cut every thing off and replace it overnight. As a said this was easy digging greasy blue mud so results may vary in other applications . . . I was the ducks guts later and I saw a Sumitomo in Lae years later with a modified version with bolted flanges for change out, no welding needed. Cheers
Hello Ray, I've looked up this photo off you too. That flanged bearings would be a good idea indeed. would you mean bearing like these? (could be with needles or balls but simular style) offcourse i would go and see what the costumer thinks. But if they dont want to go and fix it with a different design i might be able to put the "cast ring" in there. It's quite a small quick attach/head on the crane so not as much room on it as it is on the short stick setup that is on this crane also. I don't know if they want to machine is right away or let it run for as long as they can and spent the time then to fix it correct or make some designer adjustments. Thanks guys for already the info!
Hi Bob, thats the idea off it, The grease comes in the center off the bushing so would work his way to the outsides off the bushings (inside or outside which ever has the least pressure) in time the cavity would fill up more and more with grease giving also some air pressure from the inside towards the outside. Thats why offten you see bearings wear out from the greasepoint towards the inside cause the pressure from the cavity pushes the grease outside instead off inside.. but usely when we get to work on them the bushings are already gone for a few days/weeks/years so then its already hard enough to find evidence off a bushing.. waterpressure at that dept is 1-1,2 bar, which doesnt sound like much compared to a compressor but will definitly makes your ear pop. I'll try to talk with a few guys at Luyckx they have build a Hitachi which was able to go 80 meters under water. I only build up the grease system and they already had everything in place so i couldnt see what they did with the bushings etc etc. When building up our grease systems we always grease from the middle or in some super heavy duty appilications we will grease the bushing like normal and then have an extra grease point in the center too. Thats what i want to do with the grease system on the liebherr too. then i got my way and the costumer his way. But then we need to replace a grease block for a bigger one.. and that is the point where i cant seem to convince him to go the extra mile and fix it 100% but the chief is on holidays now too.. so its not always easy to make your point when they sit at the campsite with a few stubbies..
Water pressure is not static when the bucket is moving... Bearing Material:ToughMet 3 https://materion.com/Products/Alloy...-Alloys/Heavy-Equipment-Linkage-Bushings.aspx Underwater digging sand & gravel https://youtu.be/bMZF8ktAND8
Hi Stan, i'll give those guys a call. looks promising to what the crane is doing in my situation so definitly could do a better job then the standard steel bushings. definitly gonna read up some off their writings to get some info on this stuff.
I think a good look at the automatic lubrication system would also be in order. You said it was Lincoln, correct...? If so what type are the injectors, SL-1 or SL-V..? or are they the big SL-11's..? Is the main system grease pump air-driven or hydraulic..? What maximum grease pressure is being generated in the system..? Is it measured by a sensor on the machine (most machines of this size are)..? After looking at the functioning of the system itself the next thing to look at would be the grease itself. Lastly how about a few photos of the actual pin installation itself.
Hello Nige, Lincoln pump has been checked by the Lincoln guys and this is the SL-11 system. They use water resistant grease. But i do have some doubts about the grease system. Cause this excavator has been sitting still at the yard for a long time(there are not a lot of jobsites where they can use a big one like this one) and i personaly have some doubts wether or not the big main grease line isnt half filled with old grease. The SL system needs to come off pressure(lower then 40 bar) in order to make his next grease stroke. Im not entirely convinced that the grease that was in the line when it was sitting in the yard isnt hardended out a bit. I've seen a few times this happened. The maingrease line is 30mm so if its clean there shouldnt be any problem getting it off pressure. But i will put a gauge on it to check this when i have the change. Pin installation is just with a reaction arm. When they designed the boom they had it planned out to make a floating pin setup. But some way or another that went out off the window.
I wasn't even aware Lincoln had "guys" in the field. AFAIK they have agencies all over the world who sell the systems and spare parts and that's about it. I've never in all my time in the mining business seen a guy on site wearing a set of Lincoln coveralls. I would be extremely wary of what you have been told about the autolube system performance TBH. If you want some manuals for the Lincoln side of the system let me know by PM with your email address. Rather than send a massive amount of stuff it would be better to know exactly what's on it right now. The SL-11 injectors really need to see less than 20 bars in order to make sure the pistons return back properly in order to be ready for the next cycle. If the main grease line is 30mm bore then that shouldn't be a problem dropping the pressure in a main line that large. Depending on whether the main grease pump is air-operated or hydraulic will also affect the pump efficiency and determine how long it will take to pump the main line up to the maximum set pressure which could be anywhere between 2500 & 4000psi (140-275 bars) and cause all the injectors to cycle. Question: Do you have any photos showing the condition of the inner diameter of the bushes that are in contact with the pins just to see what the wear looks like..? that would be interesting to see. Also do you have a spec sheet (or the name) of the grease they are uisng..?
Hi Nige, The guys from lincoln like i meantioned are from the importer of lincoln in the Benelux. My costumer took off the pump and brought it to there place so they checked it out there instead of having it on the machine and test it the right way. thats why i have my doubts in the system. A SL system the size like that would gave a crap load off grease the way it has been set up at this stage.. On the info, i've got the info. Pump is electronical driven with probely a three plunjer setup with a pressure switch somewhere on the boom. I havent had the time to give it a good look. But thats how the lincoln guys out here pretty much build them 90% out off the time. these are the only picture i've made yet off the bushings. The wear i just heavy load and not enough grease by the looks off it. this is how the head looks like.. the same guys who checked the pump build this system up like this.. so you probely know why i'm having some doubts on how they do their stuff.. Definitly not the way we build our grease systems.. here's a small 5 ton i did a month ago.. I already modified the greaselines and so on but havent made a picture off that yet. Gonna go out to the quarry on Monday and work on it again. I'll get back on stuff as soon as i know more.
Hi guys, well we got it sorted out, two grease injectors where worn out and leaking quite a bit internaly. we replaced them for new ones and also redid the head off the crane so now we have three grease point up front. which makes me have my way and my costumer his way. So we're both happy that it gets a **** load off grease up front. cause the damage on the bearing was from having not enough grease. here you can see the difference off the head. grease lines are 10mm with ID of 2,5mm. i've got good experience with these lines so i hope they stay intact in this situation too. Otherwise i need to weld up grease strips and that is a bit off a pain. also with lines you can still replace them. when a grease strip fails then your into a lot off extra work getting it off and on again. Let's see how long it stays intact.. Definitly looking into the Toughmet material. its a bit harder to get down here so i'm trying to work together with some guys to be able to order a bigger amount.
Inquire with http://www.bowman.co.uk/products/bowmet?lang=de they make bearings & service Europa Pins require HRC 55-56 surface hardness & H6-H8 micron surface profile (Ra16-32) When rebuild (re-bore) is required consider using 2ea hardened bushings with end flanges (16-20mm) wide, would require shortening the stick end tubular housing. Use Steel Rings to surround the flanges; split design horseshoes welded to the bucket hinge plates. Purpose eliminate a bit of abrasive muck from getting between the stick & bucket. Cheers
Sounds like a good idea. Heard some older hitachis had also those bushings. Gonna give them a call too what they can do for me. Thanks for the info