I was working on a FiatAllis FR15b loader. Installed a new block heater, cleaned heater core, installed a new mechanical coolant temp. gauge, and a few other misc. things. I went to pull it out the shop and the S.O.B. would not move!! Ran fine when I pulled it in. I did nothing even remotely related to the transmission,other than check the fluid level. I have traced as many wires as possible and they all seem fine. There is a trans. pressure gauge in the dash and it shows plenty of pressure. I have a gut feeling it is something electrical. I have all the factory service manuals for the loader/engine/trans./elect. system. The trans. is a ZF WG180. There is a bank of 4 solenoids on the side of the trans. but I cannot figure out which ones need to be energized and when. The only method of troubleshooting the trans. covered in the manuals involves the use of a "special" gauge/tester thing proprietary to FiatAllis-which of course I don't have. I have been working on this thing for the better part of a week, and am at the end of my wits! I am by no means a 'master mechanic' ,but I have been working on equipment for the better part of 25 years and, thins thing is making me look like an absolute IDIOT! I can't seem to find anything online after hours of searching. Could someone PLEASE help me! Is there a site with any info on these transmissions? I am so frustrated that I'm about to scrap this thing and call Cat for a replacement.....I'm not kidding......I need help before I spend money I don't have! Sorry for the long-winded post, just need some guidance....Thank you!
I am probably no help at all, but lets kick this off. If the transmission feels like it is doing absolutely nothing is there a safety somewhere that could be not functioning? Seatbelt, door, etc..
is there a switch related to the brakes that affects the trans function. like in trucks you must press the brake to get the trans in gear or it wont move. have you checked all the fuses?
I think they have a neutralizer spool connected with a cable to a pedal. Make sure that the pedal is coming up all the way. I think you can see the cable where it connects to the valve body. make sure its moving all the way. I rebuilt one a couple of years ago but cant remember exactly what it looks like.
The transmission neutralizer is tied in to the left brake pedal and, yes, I have ruled it out. I guess my main question , at this point, is how the solenoids energize. I would use a jumper to energize each solenoid and see what happens but, I don't want to damage them.
Don't run your self over!
Yair . . . curb guy . I can understand your frustration and I am the last person who should comment on this type of problem. If it was me I would be checking to see if the power was getting to those solenoids . . . can you safely have an off sider move the shifter through the ranges while you get in there with a meter probe? . . . . I have just had the same sort of problem with a faulty "proximity switch" which caused lack of function on a small machine. Cheers.
Is there a dealer that can at least tell you what solenoid is for what function? Doesn`t matter who nade the trans., you will need to energize two solenoids to move. One for direction, and one for speed. I have no idea what this trans looks like,but there has to be a pressure port connection somewhere, either on the valve body or does it have caps on the shaft ends with test ports ? How about some pictures of the trans.
A friend had the same problem. Operator (not really!) calls and says traveling on the road and machine just stopped moving. I ask what happened just before it stopped. Oh I hit a bump. Turned out the emergency brake handle popped up. Check that out! it happened few times. They also had issues with the transmission and flex plates. It was used snowplowing in high gear and I guess that's a not good with these. The flex plate is a joke just a very thin piece of metal. No springs. They broke 2 flex plates and blew 2 transmissions. I'm sure there is operator abuse involved but I could not believe the POS flex plate.
A lot of times you will diagnose something faster by looking at how it ( trans control ) works rather than by troubleshooting, chances are something came loose when installing gauge through cab, if trans is shifted by wire, then start with checking power and ground at seloniods, if none go to selector switch, check for power/ ground, if not check for fuses or power supply to selector. Could be interlock at park brake, ect. I never worked on one, do you have a wire schematic?
I have a wiring diagram and as far as I can tell, everything is good.Really hard to decipher exactly what does what with the schematics ,between relays and diodes, it's hard to figure out what energizes what and from where the power/ground comes from. Everything is where it should be and appears to be functioning properly. I get what you mean by trying to understand how it works rather than why it doesn't, that's what I've been doing for most of a week. The selector switch has 8 wires going into it, and only 4 go to the solenoid bank on the trans. Like I stated before, my dumb-ass can't seem to figure out exactly where the current flows to and when. Thanks for all the replies...I'll keep checking back in and, will post progress or lack thereof ,Thanks again..I can use all the help I can get at this point....
Well if you don't want to scrap it...we'd be glad if you came and took our old fr 15 as a donor. I hate the dang thing .just about have to make parts for the POS.POS ! Lol. ill take a look at the we have and see if if I can find some useful info for you.
Thank you.As far as a machine, the thing is an animal.....lots of power, never had any trouble with it until this. I've fixed some pretty f@#$ed up stuff before but, this has me stumped. I can jump either one of two of the four wires going to the solenoid bank and it will move.....at least enough to pull it out of the shop.
Any way you can post a pic of the wire diag or email it to me, I'll try to help.
Curb guy, hows it going?
Haven't had much time to mess with it, had to move on to other broke down junk....for some reason the solenoids are not energizing ,4 wires go to solenoids, 2 have voltage, 2 do not. The thing is ,I'm not sure which ones should be energized and which ones should not, and when. Does anyone know where I can get a manual for this trans? I will report back when I figure it out.
Don's Welding on Transit Rd. in Buffalo,NY runs 4 or 5 of these for snowplowing and have been for years. They know them inside out. They've always been real helpful to me. I'm sure they would have the manuals and the knowledge to help. I'd call them up and offer a few bucks for there time.
As a matter of fact, I was in Columbus today and ,I know a place that used to be a Fiat dealer, pretty good friends with the owner.Anyway, all he sells anymore is parts, and has no mechanics anymore. I was digging through a bunch of old manuals and stumbled across several service bulletins that explain in detail how to check the control lever,solenoids and what circuits energize which solenoids- exactly what I needed to know! I will let you know what I find in the next couple days.
Curb guy,curious as to how your problem is going. Post an update when you can
I had intended to post what I had found but, I forgot....... Oh well, I did finally figure it out. I was digging through all my old manuals and piles of papers and found a factory TSB that outlined how check the shifter lever on the steering column and, that was the problem. So, if anyone out there in HEF land needs to know how check the levers in either an FR-15B or an FR-20B, let me know and I will be more than happy to post the procedures here.
most of the time thinks work out ok if one keeps the french out of it
Curb Guy, looks like I need to take you up on the info for testing shifter and such, I have an FR15B that is blowing the breaker for transmission controller mounted on steering column.
dieseldog5.9, do you still need the info? I just noticed your post.
Yes I do, drowning right with this thing, the breaker and fuse in the harness keep blowing, nearest I can tell before I ran out of fuses is that when i disconnect the air switch in the left pedal the fuses stop blowing.
I will have to have one of the girls in the office help me scan it or, something, and I will try to post it here. I really would like to post it somewhere so that others may benefit from the info. I'll get it up as soon as I can.
Hi diesel dog to limit current flow to stop blowing fuses while you trouble shoot replace your fuse with a non led test light sometimes this helps. also the light brightness changes as you isolate different components on that circuit and can give you an idea if you are on the right track I don't know anything about your machine but do know a little bit about electrical systems Mark
While a test light can be o.k. for testing circuits for lights, never use one when diagnosing an ECM or other computer-related component. The possibility of frying it due to excess current draw is not worth the risk.
That's true shimmy1. but in this case I was saying to replace the fuse with the test light in other words the test light will be in series with the circuit and will limit current flow ,not cause an increase in current flow which is bad for ECMs. the test light acts as resister in the circuit as I said sometimes it helps to troubleshoot the circuit in question Mark
http://easttexas.craigslist.org/hvo/5295999014.html found this .... know things are hard to find.......
I could really use a copy of the wiring diagram, working on the same loader, no 3rd gear, 1st, 2nd, and 4th working great. Might be a simple wire or switch, might be a bigger problem . Any help would be great
Bump up for Curb guy, any luck with the TSBs on testing control lever?
Curb Guy, I can help you with your machine if you still have it. We have a few that we also had the same trouble with. If you are interested just let me no.
This is an old post I found but i'm hoping to find some info. I have a FR15b I'm doing a 24 valve cummins swap. Everything is done and up and running. Somehow with converting over to 12 volt, the gear selector shorted out and can not get 1st or 2 nd gear. Does anyone know where I can get the shift control box/ lever?
Anyway I could get a copy of this?
Please...... or email.
Man, I completely forgot about this post. Post up or PM me your email address and, if I can’t figure out how to scan and post it here, I’ll send it to you. It will probably be Monday before I’m back at the shop so, I will see what I can do to get it to you. There are 2 places that I know of where you can send your old controller out for rebuilding, if in fact yours is bad. With the schematic I have, you may be able to fix it yourself. If I remember correctly, I paid around $700 for that rebuilt ZF controller, as mine was shot. I replaced on a Lull telehandler last week. It also had a ZF transmission , and it was right at $1000. (Yeah, I know) I’ll see if I can find the names of the places I know of who works on them. I’m sure someone here knows of other rebuilders. Like I said, I’ll get you something on Monday.
I sent it in a conversation. Thanks
Please do. I have a FR15B that has Third and fourth gear only.
I have FR 15 that I am trying to get going. Same issue, has transmission pressure but won't move. I would be love to see what TSB information you have. Back up alarm comes on so power is going somewhere but need more information to figure it out. Thank you in advance.
I’ll try to get it scanned and I will then post it here.
I’m going to attempt to cut and paste this damn thing. Let’s see if it works......scan.pdf
Another try.... HeavyEquipmentForums
Let me know if it went through
Yes, I got it - Thank you so much. Now I have some work to do !
Awesome! Glad I could help
This guy has exchange shifters/controllers for the old Fiat Allis Crane And Tractor
Hill Martin in Vermont has parts, Steve in parts and Paul in service know the fiat allis world backwards and forwards
Any thoughts on what the pproblem could be?
Looks like the solenoids are shifting, and you have pressure, those can have problems with the flexplate breaking but if you have pressure the torque converter is spinning. In an automotive application the torque converter housing drives the pump, and the part that spins the driveline is in the center of the torque converter. Looks like something in the trans or converter is broken. According to a couple guys here the Fiat loaders are very agile and strong machines. I know we talked about this in a PM thought i would bump it up and put it out there for more info.
If it won’t move at all, Make sure your flex plates aren’t broken. They’re two pieces of sheet metal that are bolted together. I couldn’t believe how thin they were when they broke in mine
Hi Chris, did you figure out what the problem was? Having the same issue
No, I didn't do anything further with it. I sold the machine to a guy who has two others and he was going to use it for spare parts. I still feel that it could be electrical but every thing I tested was ok. See above as several people has said possible flex plate issue.
Call Hill Martin In Vermont 1-802-476-1000 Paul had the Fiat Allis Dealership back in the day and has continued servicing mostly fiat allis ever since.
Hey curb guy I know it's been years since post but any info on machine not moving would help.its a fr20b
Lowboy - are you having a problem with a Fiat Allis. I have a FR120.2 and books on it, and have worked on a FR140. Mainly transmission problems(electrical). Let me know if I can help
there is a troubleshooting PDF in post #42 above, that us all that Curb Guy has.
Well I got an fr20b loader older I bought it drove it home washed it drove it to my bosses about 5 mi down the road parked it came back in about a week later and it wouldn't move you can feel it feels like it wants to go forward but it won't go forward or backwards but somebody had climbed in there and kicked that switch on the emergency brake and broke it so I'm thinking that maybe something to do with them wires any help would be greatly appreciated
My FR120 would try to move in forward and reverse but you had to give it full throttle and it could not load itself on a trailer. When you shifted from 1,2,3, you could feel it doing something but no real change. I downloaded the troubleshooting guide that was on post 42 and it looks like the shifter circuitry is very similar to mine, so maybe this will help. Mine had 1 of the 5 solenoids on the valve body go bad. Basically it was stuck in 4th gear electrically no matter what gear the shifter was in, although, inside the transmission there may have been way more going on. On mine, the solenoid that went bad is used in every gear For and Rev, except 4th thus it gets worked the hardest - it even stays on in Neutral, it only turns off in 4th, so now when I let mine warm up, I put it in N 4 so that all solenoids are off. Mine has parking brake toggle switch which put the trans in N and releases(turns off) electric solenoid that sets a brake. The FR140 I used to work on, had a diode go out in one of the diode blocks. It was stuck in third but would still go For and Rev, and did some other weird stuff. Dealer techs could not figure it out or get the diagram (idiots). I eventually got the diagrams and started tracing and testing - then figured out that the diode blocks were not on the diagrams. They are part of the kick down and reverser option (buttons on the joystick) and were nowhere on the diagrams. I opened the diode blocks, cut the diodes off the terminals to test them correctly, found one bad one, Radio shack had a 27 cent diode - soldered them all back in to the block - DONE. After about three days of wire tracing and research. They wore that machine completely out over the next ten years. It had a ZF transmission and mine has a Clark. I could study a little on the info for the fr20b if you need me to help you more.
I would greatly appreciate it cause it's been a year and it's a 9000 dollar flower pot lol
Are you able to download the document in post #42 above? There seems to be a Serial Number break on those documents, so I am sure it would be good to get the SN.
The shift solenoids ground through the emergency brake if I remember corectly, if the wire hooked to the emergency brake is hanging touching steel?or not touching steel, which ever it needs, the machine wont move or vice versa. A wire issue on the emegency brake will prevent machine from moving.