It seems like there is becoming an ever increasing void between the 8 ton machines and the 140-145 size machines. There is a big difference in performance between a machine weighing 18000-20000lbs and ones that are now closing in on 35000lbs+ The 120's all became 130's, now are becoming 140's, and many are opting for the zero tail swing version (145's) which are even heavier yet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these used to be the machines that were targeted at home builders/residential development, light commercial development and general construction. You could tow them legally with a tandem dump truck and a tandem axle 15-20T pintle hitch trailer. Now with this class of machine spec'd the way most do (road liner pads, dozer blade, quick coupler, progressive thumb, etc) its really hard to tow them legally with a tandem axle trailer and be under the 34K tandem group weigh limits. Is there just not a market anymore for a 25000-27000lb machine like the Hitachi Ex100 or Ex120 from years past? I know there is the new Cat 310, but that's about the only offering in this size range now. I've been casually looking at larger machines for a few years, but an 8-ton is only a little better than a 6-ton IMO, and then it's a big jump in size (and price) to a 140-145 which is a lot harder to move. What's everyone else's thoughts on this?
That's the exact question I asked a few years back when I worked for the Cat dealership. I had the conversation with several sales reps and got pretty much this explanation. All the small excavator lines basically started out as gray market machines. About the smallest machines you could find at the end of the seventies and early eighties were Drott 35 and 40s on tracks. Then the gray market hit with the Hitachi and Komatsu 120s and 150 size units. Japan went on hard times and machines there were only allowed to work until they reached a certain amount of hours. The trade imbalance also means that exchange rates went way out of wack and the price of shipping something from Japan to here got cheap. The small contractor quickly steps out of their 580 Case backhoes and bought gray Komatsu's or Hitachi for less money than a new backhoe and the small contractor industry went crazy. The developers started out paying by the hour and then started doing bids from multiple contractors. The big manufacturers saw the importers making money so started putting their product in this market. Then came some even smaller machines and the 80s started showing up all over. Most had backfill blades and now the small contractor started working stumps and some driveways and such. The 80 was a lot less money to purchase but the contractors charged the same money for the 80 as they did for the 120. Now days it's mostly the minis doing all the landscaping work and a lot of housing development market. There were few huge developments going in now days. Fifty homes is kind of normal in Western Washington. At the same time the performance of the smaller machines has increased over time and I've seen plenty of good operators take an 80 and do everything a 120 did and make more money doing it. The zero tail swing machines are something different. I was seeing and working on them from the gray market back in the mid 2000s. I had a couple of mid sized contractors with PC78 purple people eaters. They were doing underground utilities for large residential developments. Three hundred to five hundred houses at a time. Again the big manufacturers saw they were missing out on some money so started bringing their products into this market. That lasted until the economy got iffy so I put together a deal with the local Cat dealer around 2005 for all their used machine appraisal and I sat the next twelve years out of the gray market repairs. Now days the manufacturers don't automatically assume that small machines won't work in this market. I haven't seen anything really new from the gray market is some years that hasn't already been being sold here by the big dogs. The small contractors today do a one ton pickup with a fifth wheel and carry a 305 Cat between jobs that only last about a month. I had one customer running six minis, a couple of rollers, one dozer, four pickup trucks, two trailers and no dump trucks. The world is changing all the time. Anybody want to add their experiences over the last twenty years?
Deere had the small market for long time before it became rainbow of gray colors/brands,Cat was a private club & Case was odd ducks.80s/90s was the 14ton 490 & step up 590,1990s 8ton 190. Remember ads all geared for small owners with a dump & right tag trailer looking to expand . Lot of beat 30yr old 490s out there for sale
Much like John c said around here if it cant be hualed with a pickup truck you may as well take the 20 ton machine and do the work faster. Here in the dead/dieing area of steel towns and mining towns everyone with a diesel pickup and machine thinks there a contractor. Tho for the grey market machines our 307ssr and 312c have made lots of moneys. Dad and uncle could never have afforded those 2 machines if the greymarket stuff wasnt around.
Thanks for the interesting and historical insight, all that makes a lot of sense. Basically nowadays profitability is driving the market as much or more so than machine capability. While I rarely tow mine with a pickup, my 5-ton mini ex is one of my most used and most profitable pieces of equipment.
We are really liking our 10 ton (1994 Hitachi EX100-1). Moved up north on a tandem roll-back. Just legal on all axles. Basically just sits on a pad and moves coarse tailings for us with a 52” 1 yard bucket. Saves significantly on fuel for the 210 as well as providing sufficient reach/capacity. Kind of atypical use no doubt; but a perfect complement to our 5 ton (which feeds wash plant).
Ford did it with T-birds and then Mustangs, From sports car (sorta) to land yacht. Joe H
Yeah the Mustangs went from the small '65 to the huge '73, but then they came to their senses again with the Fox bodies. Ever since then though, every iteration has gotten bigger. Their trucks are going the same way. All the new F250's I've seen are 11000lb GVWR or over. This kind of defeats the purpose of a 3/4 ton truck. Now you need a DOT number for just the truck itself if used in interstate commerce and they've only made the 'legal' towing capacity smaller to stay under CDL. I sometimes wonder if the people in Corporate even think about these sorts of things?
The bucket size, reach and breakout are the big benefits I see of a 10-12 ton vs the smaller machines. IMO the 8 tons are too close to a 5-6t to justify owning both and are too big for a lot of 'mini ex' type work. A 5 ton and a 10 ton sounds like a good combination.
Mustang E sad times. 8 ton will not match 10 ton it may run faster & keep up but why would I bale water all day to keep up & longevity is not there. Worked for a contractor had couple yr old 5 ton Takeuchi's with adapter swing 580 hoe buckets all had hydraulic gremlins in & out yard shop I can guess why 100% duty cycle.
As of a few years ago you could order them with a 10000 gvw ans the high tow rating so you could be legal under 26001 with a 14 or 16000 trailer the cdl part depends on state of course
No way around a trailer combo why a A lic
In pa you can combo a pickup at 26000 and pill a trailer any weight ad long as the truck gross plus trailer gross is 26000 or less on just a C
Wrong 10000 pound rule applys only over 26 combo
And if your not wrong it must not be too enforced like most dot related ordeals tho at one time here i know the 10000 rule appled and suposedly it was changed at some point a truck here at one time if it had air brakes you had to go get a endorsment for air if it was under cdl that is no longer a thing either
Sorry you so right hot wheeler. Get a certificate to drive
Thats the wifes I got a class A so whats your point if dot laws where a bit more clear and the same in all states would help...
I'm LIC to pull a trailer
I have 6 ton Taki and a Wacker ET 90. The 90 is technically a 21K machine. Vast difference in capabilities between these two machines in capability. I think the 100-120 size have been crushed by 9 ton machines that can fill that market due to superior performance, yet still be a Midi. Cat 310, Yanmar makes a 100, Taki a 2150 which is a bit bigger. There are a few in that mystery weight class. It would be interesting to see how many of those are sold verse the 130-140 market and the 9 ton market. I really think that the 9 ton machines are so capable that the 120 sized machines are kind of an oddity. Cat's 310 is a Chinese built machine, if they sold a lot of them, I would doubt they would be built in China. The 20K Wacker really excels in moving material, Prior to buying that, I made the Taki work, took longer, I didn't realize how much longer till I bought the 90. I think that split at 6 ton near zero swing and tail and a 20K machine is near perfect. Covers most everything you hope to short of jobs that the 140 and larger are better suited for.
Thanks for the insight. There aren't many true 9-ton class machines out there but it seems the numbers are increasing. Mostly I see 8-tons like the Kubota KX080, Tak TB290, Cat 308 (309 just has more hyd flow) most are in the 18-19K lb range. I like the specs on the 310 Cat but refuse to buy one because they are made in China. Yanmar SV100 looks nice too but dealer support is pretty sparse in our area, same for Wacker Neuson. The new Case CX90E might be promising, haven't seen one out in the wild yet though.
I didn't mention the Case 90E. It is an excellent performing machine. Very fast, 6 way blade if you want it. I spend about 4 hours on one. I certainly would consider that machine.
It comes down to mobility these days 308 or 85 size guys throw on a one ton all the time The dump truck market is so beat down for rates as an owner operator it doesn't pencil to own one and one you can afford is probably to old to finance but you can finance any new pickup you want and justify it because its your personal that you get to write off But as for machines around here back in the day house lots were 8000 sq ft plus in track now there 5000 or less the houses are built 5 ft apart its tough to use a backhoe anymore in residential unless one is a true operator witch for backhoes there aren't many So the lack of talent drives the 5 and 6 to mini market hard and ease of mobility between sights so to go bigger you might as well be 25000 lbs and up you will meed a real truck so have a real machine
DOT is cracking down on guys pulling 6-8ton units around here behind 1-tons (finally). Just last month there were 6 guys in the county caught towing things they shouldn't without a CDL. As for the dump trucks, I too used to think the rates were so low there was no money in it, but it turns out the market is flooded with guys not doing the type of hauling I need, which is why I bought my tandem. 90% of the dump trucks on the road are what I would call 'highway trucks'. They all want to haul asphalt or aggregate to the big highway jobs, or sand to the concrete plants, or whatever else they are doing. Almost no one will tailgate gravel anymore and heaven-forbid you ask them to even go a little bit off road. I primarily haul for my own jobs, but bill it at a much higher rate than everyone else. I get the materials where they need to be, on time, and without making a mess of customers property and they are willing to pay for it. The part you mentioned about financing is very true too though, and I think is driving a lot of markets right now. A lot of guys don't have $25-50K cash to go out and buy a serviceable tandem dump truck, but they won't bat an eye at financing an $80-100K pickup. Plus they can roll in the financing the 22" rockstar wheels, full graphics wrap, lights all over, custom flatbed stacked to the brim with Yeti coolers and Milwaukee Packout boxes etc. Don't get me started on the younger generations and their "work trucks" lol...
We have been through the impact of the new generation owner operator these guys are 100 percent financed on everything pickup trailer mini ex and skid steer there charging way to cheap so yea there making better money than they ever did but they own the risk and have never seen a slow down they won't weather the storm We have not been able to raise rates in our service work for almost 2 years because of those guys so I started working markets they can't touch and work they can't get into and we do ok But we have come out of the biggest name your price market that we may ever see in our life and these guys jumped in at the peak 5 years from now most won't be around Most of today's business owners have never seen hard times all the old timers that survived 08 are getting out and retiring or selling out and investing in other things So to get to the original topic of excavator size most of the little guys witch are the drivers of the small excavator market the current buissness theory has not been tested by a low volume work market and the need for a versatile machine cause in that environment you can only afford the one
I started my first business in '00 and my current business in '07 so I remember '08 very well. About the worst time to start a new business. My first year I made $17K gross, thank goodness we had some savings to live on. I know we've all been saying it for awhile, but I think we are right at the precipice of another '08, or maybe much worse. At the moment I'm merely window shopping for a larger machine, I really want to see how everything with the economy shakes out over the next year or two. Depending on the depth of the next downturn it might be a good time to pick up some good equipment for cheap. Then again, it may be bad enough I'll just be grateful for what I've got.
The reason the 10 ton market is almost nonexistent is even most small utility crews want a swing boom for reasons I cannot understand. I don't know if it's a hold over from the backhoe days or something else. Just poking around Machinery Trader, swing booms outnumber fixed booms 3 to 1 in listings.
I've found that to be odd as well. On a 6-ton or smaller machine I really like the swing boom, 8-10 ton I'd much prefer a mono boom.
Just had a quick look at the engine specifications of a new 13 ton Hitachi which is rated at 106hp. The last of the UH series 20ton machine had 92hp, both metric. So trying to compare apples with apples, assuming the UH series was in excellent condition which machine would outwork the other? My $$$s is on the UH series, and yes I have dug house footings with that size machine.
Pretty pleased with our ‘vintage’ 1994 EX 100-1. Has moved a large amount of coarse tailings while burning a small amount of fuel. It’s a bit ‘leaky’ (need to find bad hose in belly) and a bit slow…but handles a 1 yard bucket with good stability. Typical smooth Hitachi hydraulics. Pretty small tail overhang allows tight quarters work. The 3.9l Isuzu has unknown hours—-probably a lot as hydro pumps have rebuilt tag. But starts immediately & runs smooth. I will say however; a lot louder than the 4.3l Isuzu in our old ZX 120.
Engine: Isuzu 4BD1, 76 hp. Non-turbo…
Its old got 3 years on me!
Now I feel old.
That's a very tidy machine, well done for keeping it like that.
Thanks for the laugh! Couldn't agree more. Always get a chuckle out of the 3500 with wheels sticking out 6-8" wider than the truck pulling a new 299 CTL with the hitch dragging the ground and the truck's nose in the air hauling ass down the interstate while they have the phone to their ear even though the 2025 MY truck has all sorts of hands free tech. Back on thread topic - For what we do a 10-12 ton machine is a b*****d size. Too small to handle pre-cast storm structures efficiently and big enough we have to put it on a lowboy. It would cost the same to move a 310 as it does our 325 so the size doesn't make sense for us. We run 305's for mini's and 325's for main hoes. Actually we could go up to a 335 sized main hoe because there has been times the 325 was a little too small.
Transportation is a very regional thing. What a man can haul in Iowa where roads are arrow straight and flat as a skillet is completely different than here in the mountains with 20%+ grades and sharp switchbacks. Most of AL I've been in is somewhere in between. Around here a 120 is about the biggest hoe you'll see behind a tandem/tri axle dump truck, lots of 8-9 tons. Even a 160 most guys are hauling with a semi and either a short rgn or a tandem/tridem pintle hitch trailer behind a semi tractor depending on how tight of roads they have to get down. Finding a safe spot to unload and turn around can also be a challenge. There are some sites that are just inaccessible to a 210 size hoe and 336 and up are relegated to work in town or sites with main highway access. All that being said, I understand and agree with your logic. We just have to scale everything down a bit, hence my interest in the 10-12t class. A 5-6t hauls nicely behind a medium duty truck, 8-9t is better behind a tandem and at that point you might as well haul a 10-12t.
That would be an ideal size for me, a 1yd bucket is about right for a 'larger' machine for my needs. Very few EX100's around here though and most machines I find that age are completely beat.
I don't know how it works in the US but here we have over dimension curfews at various times of day and the year. 10 and 12 ton diggers are not over dimension making them very popular especially for owner operators. In the big smoke it's 7-9am and 4-6pm every day, totally prohibited prior public holidays and for all of the Xmas break.
Most of your work is brownsite though. When I say small pipe crew, I mean the guys with a couple 8 tons and 1 yard wheel loader. That's the standard small waterline/stormwater upgrade mob here. A 325 needs a full 12' lane between the curb and the cones to swing safely There doesn't seem to be very many around anywhere in the US. I know where one with blown up motor is and I keep lowballing the guy and the trees around it keep getting bigger. It's probably one those projects I'm better off not picking up, but it would be a great starting point for some of my bad ideas.
I was talking specifically about our operation as far as a lowboy goes. I could haul a 310 sized machine with our L9000 and tandem tag but I'd have to pack a lunch if the move is over 10 miles, cheaper to hire it moved. Tight sites are where the Landoll our lowboy service has shines. Being able to slide the axles empty and maneuver a tight turn is extremely handy. One of those trailers are well over $100K new so it's cheaper to hire out. In the past we've moved 315's behind a tandem and tri-axle dumps with the trailer we have now. Worked great.
Hears what it was like working in the early 2000s
Nice tidy outfit!
I'm curious how many around here are over 26k without a CDL. Very common for an F350-550 (or Dodge) with a 20k plus pound trailer. My truck is 19,500 I think. Trailer 25,000.
Most are probably overweight. Not sure why DOT lets them and the guys with 2500’s hauling a 6 ton mini but me and my Top kick hauling a backhoe gets all the attention.
If it fits it ships.
It's easy to spot the guys without enough truck by the way they load the machine, such as in that last pic. I always load with the blade to the front, house/stick pointing to the back, and generally pull the machine forward until the drive planetaries are centered between the trailer axles. There are a lot of guys running around with dangerously little tongue weight IMO.
That's an example of good machine placement, if the truck/trailer/machine are all sized properly I find that to be the right spot regardless of if it's a pickup with a 3.5-ton, a medium duty with a 6-ton, or a tandem with a larger machine.
nice sized machine, wrong size truck!
Driving that would be like -
Every pool digger around was set like that here Cat designed the 314 for that application with a zero swing but you need a tandem dump and twenty ton tag to move it or a set up like this whitch is really handy I just bought a 314 with rubber tracks last year and boy that's handy for a lot of things
Interesting; rubber tracks on a 14 ton… I suppose could be very handy; especially if working in urban environments. Nice tidy setup for hauling that 313!
Where have you been hiding @MG84 ? Haven't seen you around in a while.
Been living like it's 1999, no smart phone, ~10min a day on the computer and less than an hr a day of TV. Its great, everyone should try it...
Sounds like a good idea. Glad to hear you're ok. We've had several guys just disappear from the forum recently with no explanation.
Id have to wear a diper and get carried around and play all day as i was 2 in 99
Good Lord - you're a young'n!