Have a CX210 with an Isuzu engine, works fine until it starts digging heavy materials then it basically loses power until it stalls. Check the fuel system from tank to separator to primary and secondary filter, all clear. Changed the filters today and they were dirty. Machine has been parked for about three weeks and the tank wasn't filled, now it seems like their is a lot of settlement in the tank. Any suggestions, maybe the injection pump?
I had the same problem with a CX160. The problem ended up being they have these little screens in the banjo fittings coming out of the water separator going to the engine. I had case come out and they told me they just remove the screens all together, it fixed the problem. If you haven't checked them I would.
The screen in the banjo fitting seems like the most obvious one, but just in case that is OK, check the air cleaner. It would have to be real dirty to stall like that, but I have seen it happen. Baz
Thanks for the prompt replies. Just like you said, one of the banjo fittings was blocked with a bit of gunk but i also changed to fresh fuel and used fuel treatment because there was a lot of water in the tank. Warmed up this morning and seems to be working a lot better and not even with full throttle. Thanks again and much appreciated.
fuel catch up... I've also seen many cases where during inspection fuel flow appears normal. IE: a full fuel line of fuel flows but if one were to let it flow for mabey 20 secounds you'd see where it'd slow up........ blockage in tank. then it'd flow enough to run engine at speed but when gov kicks in it needs more than supplied........starts missing, stalling etc.
Sometimes that is a fuel problem. Most of the time is is a Pressure Release prob though. The main pump has a variable solenoid that is controlled by the computer that will relieve some horsepower when engine starts to stall. It is easy when you know what you are doing to check this, would be really hard to go through the steps wrote out like this. You need someone with experience to check this for you if it is not in the fuel system.
Seems like i put that to rest too quick, after a few hours it started acting the same. Someone i spoke to mentioned something to me about a solenoid so maybe that really is worth checking.
Going back to your original post; filters were dirty, settlement in tank, then in your next post you mentioned clogged banjo strainer, lots of water in tank. Then you mentioned you put some fresh fuel and additives in it, which is good. Did you blow compressed air back though line to tank? Have you continued draining water and dregs from tank? And one thing I have seen all too often is a piece of solid debris, like a stick or something, lodged in the supply line valve in the bottom of the tank. Even had a Cat 320 that the supply line valve petcock would turn until it stopped both directions, but it turned out, when it stopped while opening valve, it wasn't opening all the way. Put a new valve on it, problem solved. You've got to go through your fuel supply system and make sure everything is in order.
Yes it does sound like a fuel supply problem, this is typical behavior of a Diesel not getting enough fuel. Had this happen on a JD 1075 combine (blocked aftermarket filters) and a MB Unimog (fuel pick up pipe blocked due to crap in tank). Once problem fixed both good as gold.
ATCOEQUIP gives good advice here. If it ran fine for a few hours after cleaning the banjo filter, it sounds like there is still dirt in the system. Once it gets in and causes a problem, unless you get ALL the foreign stuff out of the system it will keep clogging. You need to eliminate every possible fuel obstruction, before moving on to other components.
Is it a rusty colored snot clogging your fitting? I have a Case hoe that does the same thing from time to time. On mine (9040B) there is a line from the bottom of the tank to the sediment bowl near the top of the tank. The fitting into the sediment bowl will plug with snot. I fill the fuel tank full take the fitting off and let some flow through and will usually get a couple more goobers out. I've been told its an algae in the fuel. I've treated it with a biocide fuel treatment and it will cure it for a year or so. But it comes back.
Had a similar problem with my Hyundai 130. After some serious fuel line bleeding (left one of the vents open accidentaly at the injector) the problem seems to have vanished.
I'm gonna go over the fuel system again today as thorough as I can be. Keep in mind this only happens when trying to cut into the floor. At the moment i'm tearing into a pretty vertical hill and it seems fine, how am i sure it isn't a hydraulic problem? I have at least six relieve valves on the machine though, at least i'm told thats what they are.
Well, this is not 100% accurate, but generally speaking, if you operate a function of the machine until the motor begins to stall to the point it's about to die, and rapidly let go of the lever you are operating and release the load on the machine. At that point, if the engine recovers back to high rpm slowly, then you have a fuel problem. If it recovers back to high rpm very quickly, you have a phantom hyd pressure problem causing excessive load on the engine.
Machine doesn't take any time to to recover, there is no smoke. What can cause pressure in the hydraulic system?
I don't know anything about a CX210, not much help with the hydrualics on that machine. The persons you need to talk to are gggraham, goose, or alrman. One thing that can happen is one of the pumps is stroking the swash plate more than is needed for an operation, this creates excessive pressure because the pump is pumping more oil than is necessary. There's a number of things that can cause this, I don't know enough about the machine to take even a wild guess.
Generally speaking there will be some smoke if the load on the motor is high enough to stall it. I would still be looking at fuel as you had a lot of dirt in the filters and fuel tank. There are quite a few things that could cause hydraulic stall, most likely computer related. Does the machine seem faster than normal in some cycles? The pump may not be de-stroking, thus trying to pump high oil flow under load, like trying to drive up a steep hill in top gear.
Hey ATCOEQUIP, I was still typing my reply when you posted this and didn't see it till I had posted. Sorry if I pretty much repeated what you said about the hydraulic pump. Great minds think alike:notworthy Baz
LoL, no worries mate, it's happened to me more than once.
Hp Horsepower = Pressure * Flow/ 1714 * pump efficiency(piston pump about 95%) Simply put sounds like your demand for hydraulics is greater than what the prime mover can support-possibly pump not destroking. HTH, Tom
You have been finding crud in your fuel system. Until you are absolutely certain the fuel system is clean and correct, concentrate your efforts on the fuel system. Generally when the complaint of sudden loss of power at the engine comes up, the hydraulic system gets blamed. Unless something has abruptly failed or someone has tampered with the hydraulic system, it usually is not the hydraulics. Run a function that uses some horsepower but doesn't require near peak horsepower. Stick extend would be a good test. If the engine drags down extending the stick only, chances are it is engine. And to go back to the first paragraph, you have found crud in the fuel. Get ready to spend some quality time getting your fuel system spotless again.
Changed all the hydraulic filters today and the hyd oil (4200hrs). The only function draging the engine down is the stick. Let say i try scraping the ground or pushing a heavy boulder away from the machine, that would drag the engine down. When i say thats the only function, no other operation labours the engine, I could lift, slew, track, anything except extending or retracting the stick with a load.
So you're saying that if you curl the bucket in the ground or lift the machine with the boom it's fine but the dipper arm hyd ram loads the engine?
I spoke to a dealer on friday, he guided me into the onboard diagnostic, machine is showing no codes. He then asked me to test a few functions. Curl the bucket in the air and hold the controls, engine is fine. Extend the stick to the limit and hold the controls, engine dies after a few seconds but actually extending it isn't a problem. Same with the boom. Dealer said it may be a number of things, but i would need an est to check it. So the machine can track, swing and lift (actually load a truck) without trouble. I can use the boom and stick to lift the machine off the ground and pretty high too.
Does the machine track straight? Could be one pump is not de-stroking so it only stalls on the stick and not the bucket??? Sound a tough one, may need an expert to check it out on the actual machine. Keep us posted. Baz
Machine tracks straight. This CX210 is european spec equipped with safety valves on the boom and dipper, one for each cylinder, three in total. Now these are the only functions affected. The relief valves are on the safety valves. Pressure has to flow through these to the cylinders and back. From what I understand these are safety mechanisms for lifting which prevents the boom or dipper from dropping in the event of a burst hose.
I am only guessing here, but if one of those valves were faulty that circuit would be slow or stall, but as you can move the bucket to it's limit and the motor doesn't stall, there is no reason why the motor would stall when basically you are creating that same condition with the arm. It could still be a computer related thing as it sounds like the pump/pumps are not de-stroking. You can usually stall your tracks/arm/bucket or whatever on an excavator without the motor stalling so I keep thinking it is more likely to be pump controllers. There may be an arm re-generation circuit that re-directs the lift return oil to the arm for greater speed. It would seem the problem is becoming more difficult to diagnose.
JVS Equip The screen in bango fitting will stop the dirt from clogging the rest of the system.But I would make sure the fuel tank was spotless clean.But the water serarator could collect some of the dirt.What did the dealer mean when he said you would need an est to check it.What is a est?
Electronic service tool, unfortunately my local dealer does not have the correct one. I have actually removed the tank and had it cleaned.
Overlooked Symptom Pumps seem fine, ran the machine and turned on the computer to watch the pressure, according to what i explained to the person who was guiding me the pumps are good. Now that sympton that i overlooked, everytime the machine stalls, i check the secondary fuel filter and its half empty, significant or not?
These CX210's and CX240 are nightmares on this phanton de-rating of the engine and dying out problems. Good call on the small screen in the banjo fitting. We usually just throw that out when they come in. I have seen some welding slag left over in the tank. This was causing blockage of the fuel line periodically. When the Excavator moved around, the blockage would also move and let the fuel out of the tank and then mysteriously block the line again. We fought that problem for two years on a customers CX210. This slag was about the size of a silver dollar. The high pressure injection pump are not like the old pumps that most of us are use to. They cannot handle and water, trash or starvation. They go bad almost instantly. Usually a bad pump will throw up a 364 code (I think) its 36something. There is a fuel pump relay that is located in the engine compartment. This is the most inexpensive component to check first. And last but not least, my latest fix was a injection pump wiring harness. I had a broken wire in this. It was a special shielded wire for the circuit board. After replacing two bad injection pumps, we found this wire was sending a bad signal to the inj. pump circuit board (square black box on top of the VP44 Inj. Pump) and frying the pump. We replaced the harness installed a third pump and its working like new again. On a side note. the CX "B" series have been outstanding and they have changed all that injection pump circuits. So far there is no problems at all and they have been out since late 2007.
For some reason its showing no codes but i'll check again. A little more specific about that fuel pump relay? You seem to have experience with these, how would one know about the bad harness?
Realisticly for a shop, it is cheaper to just replace this item than charge $100.00 an hour to diagnose a relay. So I always just change this out (part #441777A1) . We found this harness problem by disconnecting each end of the harness and testing each wire individually with the wiring schematic. Its a lengthy process but we were out of options. We originally just repaired the sheilded wire. This was a mistake! If you find that a harness is needed, it might be too late for the pump. I have a place in Ca. that will check your pump, it costs me about $150.00. Not sure where you are at inrelationship to Woodland, ca. but they are a Certified Bosch VP44 Injection pump testing facility. There is only two (that I know of)that are certified for testing this pump. 530-668-1042 Also, go to this website. www.casepower.com in there you can look up parts. Also use this as a guide to where the components are located. hopefully this helps
For clarification the pump is not a VP44 more visually comparable to a P7100 although i would have to check it for a model number or something.
I'm gonna step out on the limb and say, yes it is.
Sorry for the VP44 confusion. I just looked at the pump we replaced and its a Bosch P80082-1.
Restricted the return line (Just to test it) and getting better results with the performance. I've been advised to check for air leaks and entertain the possibilty of a new lift pump or check valve from the injection pump. THECASEguy please correct me on that because i'm not sure if the check valve is in the return line or the injection pump itself. Remember this is no cummins engine, its an ISUZU.
There are three check valves in the fuel system, two in the lift pump and one (comprises ball and spring) controlling the return fuel and pump pressure on the injection pump. Apparently "someone" who shall remain nameless unscrewed the one on the injectiong pump to bleed air out of the system the ball and spring went flying unknown to anyone. So we opened it and found none allowing the fuel to return to the tank faster than it should, not allowing enough pressure to build (Open to correction). Replaced it and voila! This puzzled me though as i had a similar problem with a dt466 which would not start at all until we replaced the check valve at the end of the rail. The machine on the other hand started, tracked, swung and dug light but would stall under a load.
Sorry for not getting back to you. I just got back from the "N" series backhoe school. Sounds like its fixed though.
Good find, you could have chased that one for ages. Shame "someone" kept silent about the flying spring. Must be a good feeling to know it is fixed.
new user: I got a hitachi ex200lc-2 thats stalling out underload n making lift impossible if u inch it itll work but if u do a normal lift stalls out. any trouble shooting or a service manual for this? [email protected] check the two sensors ontop of hyd pump no power goin to them.
have a cx240 stalling when tramming the right side, stick,or swing any thought