I have a 2012 NH L220 SSL that I bought new at that time, & I need a new 12-volt battery. The existing one (the original CNH one) seems to have gotten too weak to start the machine, despite being "fully charged" by a battery tender. I may have damaged it by fully discharging it several times (long story), or it may have been slightly defective even when new. Either way, it's outside its warranty. I have had great luck with Optima Red Top AGM batteries in my 12-volt diesel utility tractor, & in my NH EH80 excavator (2 hooked in series for the 24-volt system), but Optima does not seem to make a model that fits the requirements of my SSL, namely: 1,000 CCA Group 31 Size (length 13", width 6-13/16", height 9-5/16") Top posts Based on my Optima experience, I would prefer a AGM type battery (their vibration resistance is a plus). But I can't find any that offer 1,000 CCA, except a DieHard Platinum Marine Battery 31M, which offers 1,150 CCA, at $280. But I found mixed reviews of it, & it doesn't ship to any of the 6 or so Sears locations near me, so I'm at a loss as to how to buy it even if I wanted it. Interstate has their 31-AGM7 battery, but it has only 810 CCA, & is over $300. It seems that my best choice is to go back to the CNH replacement battery (BNH31TW) from my dealer, for about $150, but it's a conventional wet battery. What would you guys recommend?? Quick...winter is comin' on, & I need to rely on this machine starting...
It is hard to find anything 1000CCA or higher unless you go to a 4D or 8D battery Group Size. Caterpillar 115-2421 might just fit your needs. It is a 950CCA Group Size 31 battery. It's priced at $185 in my local dealer. You might be lucky and find there is some sort of promotion on batteries because it's "that time of the year" again ........ https://parts.cat.com/en/catcorp/115-2421
First, thank you for the prompt reply... I struggled with the on-line Cat PartsStore (I finally convinced my local dealer to give me access just today), & found that the 115-2421 is $159.08...but it comes dry, so I would have to add/buy the electrolite. It appears that 115-242 2 is the same thing only "wet" (with the electrolite) for $162.38. The ...21 is listed at 950 CCA, whereas the ...22 is listed as 1,000 CCA, I don't understand why they are rated differently, when all their other specs appear the same?? And is there any warranty?? Then I found a 175-4390, w/ electrolite, 1,000 CCA, Group 31, for $113.79...even had one in stock at my local Cat dealer (15 minutes away)...but then I noticed that it has stud terminals on top & not std. SAE top posts like the one you suggested. I'm not sure I know what a top stud terminal is...maybe just like a side terminal but on top?? If so, I would have to modify my battery cables to use it.... I also called my local NH dealer, who said that their current replacement battery for my machine is a CNH S770 (made by Exide), & is now 1,100 CCA & Group 31, & now with a 36-month warranty. For $147.50. I reserved one for pickup by me tomorrow, pending coming up with any other ideas.
Skip all of that, go to any truck shop in your area, they will all have group 31s by the pallet. Every semi uses them. I convert everything I can over to them. I buy the 750cca Exides for $70 from my KW dealer. The 925cca are $5 more. They do not last as long and fail more often than the 750s which is why I go that route.
So, I removed my battery from my SSL, took it to my dealer (about 30 miles away), only to find out that the new one I had reserved was NOT as described by the parts tech (the young a**hole, I was not happy). Instead of 1000 CCA with a 36-month warranty, it REALLY was 950 CCA with a 20-month warranty!! But they tested my existing battery under load & found nothing wrong with it!! So, the service mgr. is going to have one of their field service guys stop & look at my machine (they are in my area all the time), & give me a 1/2 hr. free of service time to try to diagnose what's really wrong. He mentioned that there have been starter problems and diode problems on those machines (not a happy thought!!). The symptom is when you hit the power button, the panel lights up & it goes thru its preheat cycle, when done I hit the start button, & I hear just a click (from the starter relay in the fuse panel it seems), but no starter turn over. Power down, try again, & almost always the starter will turn over & the machine will start. Also, if I jumper from my pickup (even if the pickup is only at idle) the starter will always turn over & start the machine normally. So, the problem seems to be only the first time I try after the machine has been off a while, but will work even then if it's jumpered. I have no confidence, now, that it will start by itself in the winter. So, we'll see what the field service tech comes up with...
I would appreciate some battery education...Why would you want to replace a 1000 CCA battery with a 750 CCA one?? What's the practical consequence of downsizing?? It seems it would not have as much capacity to turn the engine over?? Am I missing something?? And why do you think that the 925 CCA ones fail more often than the 750 CCA ones?? Should I infer from that that the 1000 CCA ones would fail even more often?? Durally, I've read many of your posts & you seem to know what you're talking out based on experience, so I would welcome your help...I don't profess to be a professional mechanic, let alone a diesel mechanic, but it sounds like you are...
I haven't had enough experience to be able to tell, but I trust durallymax's opinion on the batteries. There are lots of ways that batteries are made to have more CCAs and if they're in the same case as a lower CCA battery they will mostly shorten the life of the battery. More, larger, thinner, finer grained lead plates. Less space at the bottom for sediment. Maybe even higher acid concentration? Thanks for the heads up on the truck dealer.
Two years ago my New Holland had the exact same symptions as yours. My battery also tested good. Our corporate equipment manager told me to replace the battery anyway. The company has about 60 of the New Hollands. I took his advive and it has been starting perfect again since. Apparently there is something in the start circuit that kicks out if it does not have absolute optimal voltage.
You mentioned that the battery was discharged several times and only recharged by a battery tender. I believe you have a weak battery with a bad cell. When I owned a parts store in my younger days, I would put battery's like yours on a desulphurization charge with a full featured battery charger, battery tenders (unless it is also has battery charging features) are usually not capable of recharging a discharged battery properly. When you let a battery go dead, it builds up sulfur crystals on the plates. Over time, they build up to prevent proper discharge of amperage, it may still register good unloaded voltage. The good thing is that it can be easily prevented by ensuring that a battery is fully recharged immediately after it is discharged then put on a battery tender to maintain it charged. If a desulphurization charge did not restore you battery's capacity, you probably have a damaged cell and need a new battery. I have a Black & Decker VEC1093D charger for my home use, not sure they are made anymore but it has specific desulphurization mode. I know BatteryMINDer Plus can be had with combo charger/maintainer/Desulfator. Of course you could just buy a new battery or take the one off your truck and test the theory but what fun would that be.
I'm not a battery expert, and there are a lot of variables to consider. In my case of the same Exide 750 vs 925 , the short simple answer is the number of batteries that come back to the parts/service guys at the dealer. Not many 750s at all in comparison to the 925s. Both start the trucks just fine and most drivers never notice a difference anyways. There are a lot of factors involved in failure, assuming both batteries are identical otherwise, there's only really one way to get more CCA's. More surface area, and since the space inside the case is the same and the battery technology is the same, more plates are needed. In order to fit them, they need to be thinner which can make them more susceptible to failure for a number of reasons. Being thin, the plates can expand more during cranking, which over time can make them more susceptible to a short earlier in life. The thinner plates can be more susceptible to corrosion, all batteries grids will corrode, its just a matter of time and various factors can reduce the effect, but it is never eliminated. Keep in mind, different manufacturers techniques and quality will vary some, but there's still only so much variation that you can have in the same size lead acid battery. Aside from active material depletion, Sulfation and "soft shorts" are the other leading causes of poor battery performance. Sulfation can be prevented, and can often be reversed. A soft short is when a portion of the battery is shorted out for some reason (possibly contacting the fallout at the bottom). Soft shorts are not always easily found because the battery often works fine right after charging, but will die quickly due to discharging itself. Thats why it can be important to charge the battery fully, let it stand for 12 hours, then load test it. Carbon Pile is still the cheapest effective load testing. There are more advance systems as well. No one system can really test everything though. IIRC more than 50% of batteries returned as "bad" are actually just fine, meaning proper testing is getting scarce because it is time consuming. The reason to replace a higher CCA battery with a lower one is due to a potentially longer life and lower upfront costs. Most batteries will not make it 4 years. Batteries are not hard to replace, so I prefer to buy the cheaper ones as long as they work decent enough, versus spending double without getting double the life. That statement doesn't really correlate with CCA necessarily. If you actually need the higher CCA then you are going to have to buy it, however in your situation you most likely dont. CCA is the amps the battery will deliver after 30 seconds in 0* weather and remain above 7.2v. Modern electronic engines usually need to stay above 9-10v or they cutout to protect the electronics. An OEM may spec a higher CCA to for a long cranking time without dropping below a certain voltage. That doesn't mean its always necessary. How often are you cranking your SSL for 30 seconds? Unless you just changed the fuel filter or you are having an issue, probably not too often. The demands of pre-heaters do play a role in this though as well. The downside of a lower CCA battery is simply less cranking time. However, you have to decide if you really need the extra cranking time. You probably don't on that specific machine. I use the 750CCA's in everything around here. Our SSL's all start fine with them. Larger equipment with 6-9L engines have two of them in parallel (or series on the 24v machines) and they can crank forever (remember that CCA is doubled though). Semi's with 12-16L engines usually have three of them in parallel and can crank just fine for a very long time. I don't have a lot of nitty gritty tech on it other than multiple battery places saying that on the same battery, the higher CCA ones tend to fail quicker and more often. Thus I say if the lower CCA works, use it and in my case it has always worked. I've used the 925s before as well, not a huge difference. You are really only going to notice the difference if you have to crank for an abnormally long amount of time and at that point the higher CCA may be the difference between needing a charger/jump but how often is that going to happen where the higher CCA would've prevented needing a jump? You have to decide that for yourself based on experience, if a properly functioning system with fresh good batteries cannot crank for an adequate amount of time, then you need a higher CCA setup. Sometimes it takes a bit of trial and error, but with $70 batteries its not a huge gamble for me, if I ever find something it doesn't work in there's many other pieces of equipment around here I can use that battery for. I havent found one where the 750's weren't adequate. Your mileage may vary though.
Thanks to both of you for your matching explanations on battery life vs. CCA's in the same size case. It makes sense. I suspect you're probably right, I don't need 1000cca to start my L220. It has a preheat cycle that you can't avoid, & it has always started quickly. Makes me wonder why NH puts a 1000cca battery in them in the first place?? But there is no way to know without trying it. And while swapping the battery in my SSL is probably easier than most, it's still a cramped PITA, made a little worse by my adding a while ago electric winch wiring & an electric solenoid battery disconnect on the negative side. Downsizing the cca has gotten me thinking again about trying an Optima AGM battery @ 800 cca. Although it will cost more, at least with that I get a smaller physical size, which would help overcome some of the cramped PITA issues. And if it didn't workout, it would fit in my pickup, or could replace one of the 2 in my excavator...or maybe even fit in my car. A group 31 battery won't work in any of those places. So, what do you think of AGM batteries?? Cost is high, but what about their life...& vibration resistance...& really maintenance free aspect?? What model New Holland?? And I think you hit on the same feeling I have, that it seems like there is some threshold voltage that the starting circuit needs. My existing battery at rest reads about 12.5-12.8 volts, but of course when I jump the SSL with my truck the voltage rises to 14.5 volts or so due to the truck alternator. When the dealer load tested my battery, i witnessed it putting out a good 12.5 volts while the heat its output current was generating was pouring out of the tester. Is that a "Carbon Pile" tester like Durally referred to?? It seems to me that if my SSL needs more that 12.5 volts to energize the start circuit, then NO battery, new or otherwise, is going to work & something else is wrong, like my dealer's service mgr. has hinted at. Not quite...I seem to recall removing the battery & having it recharged overnight at a local garage. The rest of the time, particularly in the winter, I maintain it with a Deltran Battery Tender. But your mentioning a full featured battery charger with desulphurization capability reminds me that I should probably get one for insurance & peace of mind. Do you know if desulphurization charging is applicable for AGM type batteries, like for wet cells?? While I wait for my dealer's field tech to show up, I need to research chargers...Beside the B&D VEC1093D charger you have, does anyone else have some decent ones to recommend that won't bankrupt me?? I do have 2 vehicles & 3 pieces of equipment, so I don't want a piece of crap charger, but I don't expect to have to use it heavily.
What model New Holland?? And I think you hit on the same feeling I have, that it seems like there is some threshold voltage that the starting circuit needs. My existing battery at rest reads about 12.5-12.8 volts, but of course when I jump the SSL with my truck the voltage rises to 14.5 volts or so due to the truck alternator. When the dealer load tested my battery, i witnessed it putting out a good 12.5 volts while the heat its output current was generating was pouring out of the tester. Is that a "Carbon Pile" tester like Durally referred to?? It seems to me that if my SSL needs more that 12.5 volts to energize the start circuit, then NO battery, new or otherwise, is going to work & something else is wrong, like my dealer's service mgr. has hinted at. My existing battery was 6 years old. It would start and run fine when shut off for just a short while. If left for a number of hours or overnight it cranked fine but would not fire. It would start instantly with a jump or on the battery charger. I tested it after setting overnight and it read at 11.6 on my cheap digital meter. I checked today and my now two year old battery measured 12.4 V this morning at 32 F after setting for a few days and it fired instantly after the glow plugs said to go. Mine is a SX565. The company skid steers are all over the size range.
They have to account for all conditions, CCA is at 0* which is cold but not severely cold. It also may provide a bit of a safety net giving the illusion that the battery is lasting longer even if the machine doesn't necessarily need that size, as it degrades it will take longer to not be usable. Then there's the most logical reason, they get a great deal buying truckloads of the same batteries whether its for an L220 or something larger that may actually need a battery of that size. IIRC on those its inside that compartment on one side right? Not the worst but not easy either. I'm mad that Cat moved their battery to the engine compartment now, its not terrible to replace but blocks the oil filter and cramps the engine bay more. I liked when it was under the cab on the C/C2, really easy to replace. AGM batteries have their advantages, generally they last through more cycles, they can be discharged a bit further, they hold up much better for periods of inactivity, no chance for spills, and their vibration resistance is excellent. You have to decide if there's an advantage for you or not. Given the lower use of your machine, you may benefit from one, but if you use a battery tender as it is, a wet cell battery would be fine too. Your SSL shouldn't need that high of voltage to crank. Carbon pile testers are big bulky deals that apply a large real load to the battery. You are supposed to start with a fully charged battery, apply half of the rated CCA for 15 seconds and if the battery stays above 9.6v its deemed good, at least in that test. It wont always find a shorted cell, letting the battery sit without a charge can though. AGM batteries are less susceptible to sulfation, but its still possible. All of the batteries are still lead acid batteries just with different construction. Wet batteries obviously use liquid to hold the electrolyte, AGM=Absorbed Glass Matt where it is still a liquid but fully absorbed into a media, Gel type uses silica to create a paste. There is plate style construction and spiral construction which you are familiar with in the Optima batteries. There's a lot of different marketing lingo that can get confusing as well. Odyssey avoids calling their battery an AGM and says "starved electrolyte" which is an AGM battery. You will also hear about Valve Regulated batteries. Any sealed battery is valve regulated. Basically every battery is "sealed" and "maintenance free" except for serviceable wet cell batteries. You hear "dry cell" as well which is used to describe any battery that isn't a wet/liquid battery. I use a NOCO Genius for reviving dead batteries, desulphurization, and charging AGM batteries. The desulfate mode on them is like many chargers and just runs a high voltage at low amperage which is very effective but some argue that it speeds up corrosion and that a pulsed setup is better. You can make your own as well if you have the time.
If it made it to 6 years that seems pretty decent to me. If it would perform fine after a charge and while running, but loose power after sitting for awhile, it probably had something causing a higher rate of self-discharge like an internal soft short.
Yea...I can see that being the case, rather than any technical reason!! Yep, you're right, there is an access panel on the left rear side that removes easily with 3 bolts...It's the same panel that covers the engine oil filter & remote oil drain. That access panel works great, it's not the problem...the PITA is loosening & removing the cables from the top SAE battery posts...& then spreading those clamps & getting back on the posts. There is precious little finger room on top of the battery (due to its Group 31 height, that's where I'm thinking an Optima AGM 800cca battery holds a size advantage, because it's almost 2" less in height). And I even have a real forged Snap-on clamp spreader, but those clamps are so beefy they don't spread easily!! And the cables are so short you can't drag the clamps out to work on them. On newer L220's than mine they have changed to stud posts on top of the battery & matching cable ends, which eliminates that spreading problem.[/QUOTE] I totally agree...hope the field service tech can pinpoint the REAL problem!! Thanks, I'll check those out. I was looking at all of Schumacher's chargers & getting a little boggled by the choices. I've also starting looking at Optima's new Digital 1200 charger, but I may have to contact them to see if it includes desulphurization ability.
I also go to the local truck dealer for group 31 battery's and they go in everything the will fit in, $74 right now for the stud ones 925 amp , I think the post ones are a little more. Steve
I would be checking connections very well all the way to the starter.
All connections to starter are good. NH field tech arrived yesterday, witnessed problem, it's actually intermittent, but mainly first start or 2 of the day, dismissed "diode" problem (that's in the wiring harness on left side, & problem was cow manure getting on contacts & corroding them, my machine is NOT in cow *hit), advised I try a test the next AM. Did test this AM...attached DVOM direct to main + post on starter, & observed voltage as tried to start. Starter clicked, didn't turn, & voltage never dipped below 10.5+ volts, & then popped back to about 12.4v. So, starter is getting enough power, which would point to a starter problem. Turns out NH thru my dealer wants over $900 for either a new or reman starter...I almost had a coronary!! Have a new one on order thru a local diesel shop for $349...should be in 2 days, & they don't want my old one. Late today got a recommendation from a farmer friend for another local shop that tests & rebuilds starters, & is very reasonable. Plan to take starter there tomorrow... Obviously, I've removed the starter, wasn't too bad for a SSL, could have been much worse, but of course still had to lay down in the "belly of the beast" with the cab up to do it...
The local starter test/rebuild shop couldn't find a thing wrong with my starter, so no charge. Took it apart & looked it over carefully. So, tomorrow I'll reinstall it, weather permitting. When I do, I plan on making the ignition/exciter wire longer, the existing one has very little slack & has a 180* bend in it as it connects to the screw terminal on starter. The local starter shop recommended I cut a couple of inches off this wire (to eliminate the 180* bend area, & possibly broken strands), & then extend it. Sounds reasonable, but how can I be sure if I'm eliminating the area with potentially broken strands?? Anyone know of a good way to test that wire to see if it has enough amp capacity?? I've asked my NH dealer to email me an electrical schematic for my machine. Uncertain if they will be able to provide a clear one, or when. Does anyone out there have such a schematic that they are willing to share??
^ I suspect you must have a BAD/ Loose connection most likely then which if it is true, will be a point of Resistance and therefore HEAT (seems usually a GROUND cable in most of my experiences) _ if you can touch or shoot a IR temp gun at connections you may find.. if the Wire you want to check has broken strands enough to affect its performance, it would also heat up somewhat, although I doubt the Current required in such a circuit is that high, but someone more familiar with the specific machine may well chime in here _ Good Luck!!
I still have money on a bad connection.
Run a test lead (wire with an alligator clip) to the solenoid terminal, and hook that up to your multimeter to see what kind of voltage is there when you try to start it and it doesn't crank. If you get 12V there with no cranking, then move the test lead to the battery cable, either going into the solenoid or into the starter. If it follow the voltage you'll find it soon enough.
A DMM with min/max will be able to monitor the voltage at the starter "s" terminal.
Yep, or you can hold the click, that is keep the key in the start position, and check the as many voltages as you have wires run to.
Weather cooperated today, so I reinstalled the starter, did extend & eliminated the sharp bend in the ignition/exciter wire. Machine started right up. I try it again tomorrow. Thanks for all your opinions & advice. I haven't found any loose or bad connections yet. My DVOM does not have a min/max function...that would be helpful. Also, I do not have an IR temp gun. Didn't I tell you guys that I'm not a professional mechanic... Also, there is no "hold the key in the start position", since it's a keyless ignition...I'd have to press & hold the start membrane switch, & would need another person to check voltages. Will probably wait until my son comes over on Sunday & maybe we'll have a go at it... Finally, just checking for voltage on the ignition wire I don't think is enough. If some wire strands are broken, the remaining ones would suffice to give a voltage reading, but would probably not be enough to pass the required amps to get the starter going.
Hey Stumpy.. That sounds like positive news in general, hopefully it is a FIXED thing, and not just a 'started working all of a sudden' _ Electrical Faults can be annoying, and every time I get something figured out I try to remember the Issue and Procedure that got me there _ sadly, I often forget it seems.. Ha!! Take care, thanks for the updates _ and I am NO real mechanic either, but always enjoy reading and learning and trying to share with others here _ Have a GREAT weekend all!!
No, that's why you use a test lead to check the voltage under LOAD, either the voltage is good enough at the solenoid terminal and the starter is the problem, or the voltage is low and the "ignition" circuit is the problem. Loose connections can be crazy to figure out, but if you can check the voltage while it's doing the problem under load then that clears up the confusion. UNDER LOAD there is no "good voltage but not enough amps". Hopefully it's good for now, but just in case it's not...
Yes I had a different issue in mind when I typed that apparently, you want to monitor the voltage that is at the starter, then check it again at the battery. If it's dropping at the starter but not the battery, the battery is good and the cable is bad. You need to test the connection under load, the load being the starter. Bad cables can certainly handle the small loads and keep a voltage reading fairly high as can bad batteries, but as soon as you apply the load you will see a significant drop if one of them is bad. You don't have to have min/max, just need longer test leads then so you can watch the meter yourself
It sounds like you have a voltage drop in the solenoid energizer wire to me , this was common in the Case skid steers that used the Nippon starters. If it starts feeding the solenoid terminal direct from the battery add a relay to energize the solenoid in the starter. The reason it acts as it does is the battery voltage drops enough overnight to not pull the starter solenoid in, after the first start the unit would work normally all day and repeat the problem next AM. In the Cases the wire size to the solenoid was marginal and introduced voltage loss to the solenoid. You might test the voltage at the small solenoid energizer wire when cold if the problem returns. In our situation a relay cured every one we installed one.
About 5 days ago I thought I found the problem. When it failed to crank one time, I measured less than 0.5v in the ignition wire at the starter, so I felt pretty sure it was the crank relay. So I replaced that relay with a new one. For the next 2 days it cranked without fail multiple times each day, then on the 3rd day it failed to crank several times. Again, I measured less than 0.5v in the ignition wire at the starter when it failed. Have done a bunch more testing, which I can summarize as follows: Ignition relay is an Omron automotive-like, sealed relay, so it can't be examined inside without destroying it. I've tested the relay with an external 12v source, & its coil energizes & closes its ignition circuit repeatedly without fail. The relay socket has a constant 12.5v input on the correct pin. When the start button is pressed on the panel, even when it fails to crank, there is about 11.7v applied to the relay coil to close the ignition circuit. The ignition wire from the relay to the starter has continuity, & I've measured about 9 amps thru it when I crank the starter by manually applying 12v to that pin in the relay socket. I haven't been able to define any pattern to when it will fail. It's worked & intermittently failed when the weather has been 50*F or so, & when it has been below freezing. It was cold last night & it's cranked without fail today over 6 different times. Although I've already ruled out the battery, I have recharged & reconditioned it with a new Optima 1200 charger. And I have a Battery Tender hooked to it constantly to keep it charged. So, I'm stumped...this isn't brain surgery, & the engineer in me is really frustrated 'cause I can't find the problem, let alone fix it!! The only possibilities I can see are: Both the old & the new relays are intermittently bad. or, there really is an intermittent problem in the starter, despite me having it tested & inspected by a starter shop. The next time it fails to crank, I plan on removing the relay & manually applying 12v to the ignition wire pin in the relay socket to see if that will crank the starter. I've done this successfully already but only when it hasn't failed to crank first. Baring some conclusive result from that test, I may have to just live with it until it fails to crank consistently. But with my luck, that will be in the dead of winter when I rely on it to plow snow!!
Well, without knowing more/standing there and looking at it, I gotta think you have tested a LOT an provided good info back to folks here.. That being said, the only thing that immediately comes to mind is that you have ".. tested the relay with an external 12v source, & its coil energizes & closes its ignition circuit repeatedly without fail. ~ The relay socket has a constant 12.5v input on the correct pin .." so I will provide the thought of checking the REAR of the Relay Socket (is it push on-crimped connectors, or Soldered..??) and see if the connection might be Loose at all once the machine gets banged around a bit and now show what appears proper Voltage but not enough Current perhaps, once it is needed..?? ** and sorry, but I do NOT know what that Required Current would even be, but doubt it is a huge amount to energize the Solenoid..?? Perhaps a wiser man will tell us _ And, other that that, of course if you have not been all the way through the Loom and its Connectors, you could always Take Apart and Clean ANY and ALL Connections along the way, 'just because it will not hurt your cause' and is more fun now than a windy January day _ and one might be the culprit!! Once again, Good Luck there, and thanks from a guy who likes to learn about these from others, for keeping us all in the loop _ Stay Well and Warm!! Once again,
Can or did you take a resistance reading of the solenoid coil circuit from the tab of the starter to ground? What do your calculations come up to when applying OHM'S law to the voltage and resistance readings? That should tell you what the amperes draw of that circuit should be.Try taking a wire from the battery stud on the starter and go directly to the tab where the energizer wire from the switch goes. Has someone added a relay at the starter already to take heavy current from the battery stud to the starter tab already? Where is the relay that you are referring to located? When we added the Bosch style relay and harness we did it right at the starter. I had a 1840 do what you describe and it turned out to be a intermittent ignition switch on the start blade of the switch, so if you have not looked at it you may consider that, if the problem can be duplicated with the dash down a reading on the rear of the switch at the start terminal could be telling.
melben - The crank relay I refer to is in the fuse box at the lower left of the cab. The "ignition switch" is a membrane-style push button on the keyless ignition panel at the upper right of the cab. As I mentioned in my post #30, "When the start button is pressed on the panel, even when it fails to crank, there is about 11.7v applied to the relay coil to close the ignition circuit." So, I doubt the problem is with the start button. But thanks for the thought.
Stump, is the relay in the starter circuit sending battery voltage to the starter tab. Since you have a key less setup quite possibly there is a starter relay that sends voltage to the energizer tab on the starter. Have you measured that voltage at the point of failure to see if the starter is getting the needed voltage? I do not know what starter the NH used but do know that the Nippons that I am familiar with need a hefty amount of voltage to work reliably. If you have already posted that info forgive me as I have not read all the back posts. Interesting thought that the system may have a low cutoff voltage system. Mel
You had 11.7 volts on the coil when pushing start did you check the ground path for the coil also there may be something that has to be closed in the ground path to allow starting like a seat switch or such
I have seen intermittent lap belt sensors, had to replace the RH part of the strap.
melben & Jonas302 - The crank relay I refer to is in the ignition circuit, that is when you push the start button, that's supposed to send voltage to close the coil in the crank relay (I've checked that voltage on a button press & it seems OK), when the coil closes it allows the constant 12v on one pin of the relay to flow out the ignition wire to the starter (I've checked that voltage & it seems OK). The Denso starter has 12v constant to its main lug. The seat switch only needs to be pressed (engaged) in order to start the power on/preheat cycle. Once that's complete, you can then press the start button, regardless of the seat switch status. The lap belt only needs to be buckled in order to press the operate button to release the brake. Of course the seat switch needs to be engaged also to have the brake release. So, both the seat switch & the lap belt are not part of the crank logic once the start button is pressed. As I've posted previously, I've stopped trying to diagnose further until in the normal course of my intermittent usage of the machine, it fails to crank. Then I'm going to try to pull out the crank relay just enough to jump 12v around the relay into the ignition pin of the relay socket, while I observe voltage at the end of the ignition wire at the starter. If I get 12v ignition at the starter (which I expect, since I've previously ran at least 9 amps thru this wire), & the starter does NOT crank, then the problem has got to be in the starter, despite my local starter shop's determination that it's good. Remember, the main lug of the stater has 12v to it all times, which I've verified by measurement & tracing of the cable from the battery. If the starter DOES crank, then I think I'll still be puzzled, because: - the direct, reapplication of 12v to the ignition circuit might have been enough to "jar" the starter or it's solenoid off its dead spot, - or the crank relay might still have failed the 1st time, - or the start button might have failed to send the coil closing voltage to the the crank relay that 1st time. So, I might just have to live with the intermittent problem until it becomes constant. If that turns out to be my only choice, I can't express in words how frustrated & mad I will be!!
I understand your frustration I just wanted to make sure you have checked the ground path for your relay coil I feel like maybe you have but just to make sure you have to have a ground path at the time of cranking even though you get a power signal from the start button doesn't mean the ground path is open it might be switched seat switch is just an example it can even go though another relay I understand that you dont have a diagram it would help immensely By the way you might be interested in a relay tester http://www.lislecorp.com/divisions/products/?product=545 you can set up a remote test light to the relay and or the starter start terminal something you can see in the cab at the time of failure might help shake out the problem
Stumpy, That was the issue we had with the Nippon starter when we updated older units from the old Delco starters. The neutral start wiring was not heavy enough to handle the solenoid draw but the unit could be started reliably with a jumper from B+ at the starter. We put a common BOSCH RELAY right at the starter with #10 leads from tab to relay and from relay to B+. The old wire from the dash had only to carry enough to kick in a tiny coil to transfer heavy current to the tab. I may be on the wrong track but your problem exactly mimics the problem we had when converting older units, the Nippon solenoid draws way more current than the Delco did. I would be interested in the results a direct jump test and if know, the resistance of the solenoid coil and the voltage applied would give the info needed to compute needed amperage which I am quite certain would be greater than 9 amps. Or if the true solenoid coil resistance is know the required amperage can be determined In fact, I have a New Nippon that I will try to get the ohms of the solenoid coil and do some math. Some quick math using your figures of 12V and a wire drawing 9 amps at engagement would mean the resistance of the solenoid windings would be 1.33 Ohms. When bypassing at the starter it may be telling to put an ammeter in the jumper, I suspect much more amps solenoid draw. These things can really be aggravating. Good luck, Mel
That should have tipped us off, the voltage shouldn't drop that much with just the "dash" on. Melben's suggestion is making more sense all the time.
OK guys, I did a amp test on my Nippon starter with a non calibrated dash style gage and the solenoid drew about in the 10 amp range while cranking, I then took a Blue Point ohm meter and tested the solenoid coil ohms, 1.0 ohms, so applying ohms law to those figures the amps draw of the solenoid would be exactly what the system voltage is at the time of crank. So if the battery float voltage is 12.6 after sitting that is where the amps needed should be to hold adequate voltage at the tab, the cranking voltage will of course drop but there will need to be enough volts-amps to engage and keep the solenoid engaged. That is not to say that it will not engage at less than that but that is the actual figures involved with that circuit by applying ohms law. For the fact I was using a 0-30-60 amp gage I think the needle position was reasonably close to 10V cranking. Just throwing this out for you guys to ruminate on, LOL. Wuddya think guys. Mel
You've convinced me. Grease monkeys doing using math formulas is about as dangerous as engineers trying to use common sense, but here goes. If a coil has "straight" resistance and it draws 10 amps at 12V then it will draw 8.3A at 10V and 6.6V at 8V which equals 53 watts, instead of 120 watts at 12V. Now a battery should easily produce 10 amps at 12V, but if the wiring is marginal like you suggest, then the solenoid gets a lower voltage, draws lower amps, lower watts and not enough to "pull" it in. Relatively easy solution though.
Delmer, I am retired after 50 + years working on this stuff which qualifies me as a grease monkey for sure and had my share of hydraulic oil baths and have created quite a few Exxon Valdez size oil spills. Electric stuff was kinda my specialty in the shop. I do not know if I am on the right track with Stumpy but looking at it from my perspective and experience only. I would be able to go to McDonalds if I had a dollar for every relay kit I put on Nippon starters on Case 1840--45 --580 E's etc I am also a advanced license holder (KC3EH) in Amateur radio which means I had to test in electric and radio theory to get through the various class levels and learn that dreaded Morse code to advance and that makes you just smart enough to know that electrical components work by means of smoke circulating inside them, proof being that when the smoke leaks out the component usually quits working. I am sure with the combined wisdom of all on board here we can at least point Stumpy in the right direction. Lots of wisdom from some people who's knowledge is obvious from their in depth posts. Looking ahead a few weeks I would like to take this opportunity to wish all my forum friends a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Sincerely Mel.