I recently got my contractors license and am looking for equipment to start making some money with. I think it would be a lot smarter to get a CTL or mini X but I would really like to start out doing dozer work.........land clearing, pads, small ponds, private roads etc. I am partial to JD dozers and am wondering if anyone else is using a JD 450C vintage (or another brand but same size & vintage) dozer for a business still. I know most will say get something newer and bigger, but I should be able to pick up one of these in pretty good working condition for around $10K which wouldn't hurt too much financially. I wouldn't qualify for financing anyway and would rather buy something outright at first. I could probably find a 450G for around $20K but that would hurt a lot more in the pocketbook. I know a newer machine would be a lot more productive so I can't see charging an hourly rate to be very reasonable unless it is really cheap. I would rather give a flat bid on a job and take a little more time doing it. As long as I can keep my overhead fairly low this should be doable. Does anyone have any thoughts on my way of thinking, and trying to get started in this crappy market? Any suggestions and advise from the experienced would be greatly appreciated. I also like the JD 450's because I am somewhat familiar with these and would do all the maintenance and most repairs myself.
palmer, one nice thing about those deere's is that you can get rippers, winches, and backhoes that fit on the back. I have a 9300 backhoe, and am modifying a carco ea winch, converted to hydraulics, to mount on the backhoe hooks. As for as production with a 450c, they might not be the latest and greatest hystat machine, but they are powershift, and their 6 way blade works just like a new one. I think that the operators skill directly affects his rate, rather than the age of his machine. For instance, a expert operator running an old, but well maintained deere 450c is worth alot more than someone running a cat D5G, who has to do his work twice, because the first time was wrong. Everyone starts somewhere, and starting out owning rather than oweing is a big plus. Thants my $.02
Hey stump, I owned a 1010 deere dozer, yes a 1010, I rented a 450G once for a day and put my 1010 up for sale the next day! I honestly covered as much ground in one day as I could have in 5. I rent now as far as dozer work goes.....I own a case backhoe 580 sl. But I love operating a dozer!
Rippers will be a necessity if I'm going to do any excavating. I will need them to dig out rocks and roots and they work great for cleaning up brush and branches. They work like a rake on the front except you can't move as much material in a single pass. Just whatever will fit between the rippers and the back of the machine. And I am far from an experienced operator, but will get the job done..........................eventually.
Since your from Ca. strict air control laws,you might want to reconsider your purcahse upward a little or you might be out of busniess before your get started. You would need to get at least a new enough machine to have a tier2 engine or one that has had the engine replaced with one.Good luck:usa
Yeah I've been trying to keep up with the new emissions crap. The last report I read said that (at least in California) I can't buy a tier 0 machine after March 1, 2009. So according to that I have 2 months to locate and buy an older machine. According to the report, company's with small fleets (I guess that would be me with 1 machine) would have to comply with the emissions standards by 2015. So, by that report I should be able to buy an older machine by March 1, and run it for about 6 years and still be in compliance. I could be way off, but that's how I understood the report. Does anyone know if these older machines can be retrofitted with exhaust particulate filters to be in compliance with the emissions restrictions and what that entails and cost? I'm kind of pissed off that now that I'm finally ready to try to go out on my own I have to deal with the emissions crap. I can't start like most in the past and buy some older cheap equipment and build a business from that. Now it seems that you need to be rich and throw down $100K + on newer equipment plus a newer truck to pull it. How can anyone get started now unless they are already loaded. Looks like I have bad timing.........again!!!
Another idea I had is to buy a machine with a bad engine that I could get real cheap and put a new emissions compliant engine in it. The only problem I have with that is if I can't test the machine before I buy it then I won't know if anything else is wrong with it........bad tranny, steering clutches, final drives etc. which could turn into a real money pit. I haven't looked into the cost of a new engine. I'm sure I will need to get creative to work around the new emissions BS.
There are some smart mechanics around that are learning how to make compliant the older diesel engines. The demand gets larger every day. Look around. If I was in CA, I might give Gale Banks tech a call..... Oh yeah- I also have a 450B (C engine) that works every day.
If striking out on your own was easy, everyone would be doing it. And as far as the emissions stuf goes, there are slot more people worse off than you. Imagine being a quarry with a big shovel or a fleet of non compliant haul trucks. 100k doesn't go too far when you have to buy 10 new haul trucks and a 994 wheel loader. Imagine having 50 cat 657 scrapers that are in great shape but you can't use them do to emissions and the resale is crap cause no one else can either. What you might look at is renting a compliant machine untill the dollars are there to buy one. I know it looks like your throwing money away, but look at the good side. You can return it if you don't have work for it. They fix it when it brakes. Undercarriage wear is someone elses problem. And if they decide that next year all equipment in cali must be tier 3, you don't get stuck owning a non compliant machine. Another good side is that a quality machine is still a quality machine. With cali enforcing emission compliant machine, alot of non compliant machines will be for sale. The west coast market will flood, but the farther east you go, the market will get better. One might be able to do quite well buying and sending equipment to the midstates and east coast. Don't look at the situation as how it makes your situation impossible, look how you bennifit the most from the given situation. Another thing to look at is a different market sector. For instance the sub compact mini's. Most are emission compliant, they can be pulled with an explorer safely, and nobody wants to do shovel work. A 4x4 pickup, a dump trailer, and a mini hoe, and there you go.
Have a 450C track loader, hate it with a passion. Have a JD No. 95 backhoe for the back of it. Worthless cause the balance is so terrible. The hydraulics on my 450C are like an F16 fighter. Run it two hours, work on them 6 hours. Plus the Deeres are the wors't d--- thing to work on the world has ever seen. Even the Deere service guys admit to that. Need to have the bucket full to get around with it. If you want a small dozer go looking for a Cat D3. Has six way blade, runs rings around a deere, and takes very little maintenance. Has true 3 speed power shift not the four speed manual with shuttle like the deere. It only takes a little more to go with the Cat and it will put a hell of a lot more on your bottom line that the deere will. But, if you really want a Deere will sell you mine.
Obviously, yours has major mechanical problems. You need to fill the bucket to get around? I have never heard that one. These machines have an EXCELLENT reputation. A machine can only be as good as its maintenance schedule. PLEASE post a picture of your machine and carraige.
Yeah, like I said in my original post, the smart thing to do would be to get a CTL or mini X. I grew up doing dozer type work and that is in my blood, but probably not the smartest thing to do to pay the bills right now. A couple years ago you could stay real busy puting in house pads and septic systems in the hills around here but that has come to a halt. I'm thinking the first thing to pick up would be smaller work when people start buying all the vacant foreclosed homes and want to fix up their yards but that would be more landscape type work. I have experienced the unbalanced thing. My dad has an old JD 450 track loader and has a backhoe for it which has only been on the machine once. I drove it down a pretty steep hill, dug a hole with the hoe and when I tried to drive back up the hill I ended up putting the nose straight up in the air. Had to turn around and back up the hill.
Special tool, thanks for the emissions info. I will definitely look into that.
Fill bucket to get around? As I stated before, to keep it balanced with the NO. 95 backhoe on the rear of the machine requires a loader bucket full to keep it balanced. This is not maintenance or anything else, just loosey design with the center of gravity somewhere under the seat with the hoe on. The only time the hoe gets used is for small trenching jobs. Otherwise the track hoe goes out. The engine is fine, the transmission is fine. The hydraulics are a mess, especially the return lines to the tank. Oh ya, did I mention that deere's fuel filtering system on these machines is a mess too? One loosey little plastic element. This is by far the worst to work on machine I have ever seen. even getting at the oil filter can be a bit--. Adding hydraulic oil is a disaster. Everything else in the fleet here is Cat and it will stay that way.
Really not trying to be a pain, but your machine should have a glass covered water seperator and secondary in-line filter also. This is what I have been suspecting since I first saw you write about it - I believe that the WRONG hand has been wrenching on it. I wish you could run MY machine for even 15 minutes.:drinkup It pushes HARD for a little machine.
Greg, can we see some pics or your not so beloved deere?
450-c Spent many quality hours on a 450-C with six way blade.One tough little machine and will outlast many of todays machines in it's class.The linkage for the six-way blade control needed rebuilding about every two years,but a can of Fluid-Film was your best friend to keep it working smoothly. Dominion
Have you considered a large tracked skid steer with a dozer blade attachment? It would probably cost more, but it would be more versitle. If you buy just a dozer how will you compact the fill on house pads?
Would a tracked skid steer really compact any better? Some guys around here compact fill with just a dozer, building the fill with thin lifts and evidently pass compaction. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing this though. Others use their backhoes to compact. Depending on the size of the fill I would rather rent a sheepsfoot compactor if I could fit it into the bid. A friend of mine owns a water truck so I could use him for water. I've never run a skid steer with a blade on it but I hear they're weak....can't stand up to the stress. The skid steers are versatile and i would still consider going that route but I can't really afford the bigger ones, and would probably end up with a 7500 lb machine. That would probably limit me to putting in pads for small outbuildings unless I was in really good soil and the homebuilder wouldn't mind me chipping away at the pad forever. The skid steers are expensive and the attachments I would need to be versatile cost a fortune too........but I could move it with my pickup.
A 450 can compact pretty well in small lifts. The dozers are 16 inch pad single (unless LGP) and the loaders are 14 inch pad triple. The loader obviously would compact better, but he needs the dozer. These machines weigh around 16,000 pounds (+/-) depending on attachments and counterweights. I don't know if you are suggesting a skid-steer would compact better, but that is not likely.
Only has te glass seperator. Wrong hand wrenching? Than why don't I have any trouble like this with all of my Cat equipment or Mack trucks. Oh ya, when I fix things I get the regular original parts too, no band aid and bailing wire you see a lot of guys do. Yes, it does push pretty good. Put it is a total pain to keep it pushing. 99.0% is with the hydraulic return and its constant leaks. I have also seen several other deere engines with the same fuel filter set up. The glass separater and nothing else.
I have a Cat D3 which I have found to be a terrific machine so I don't really have a need for a large skidsteer with a blade. I am looking real hard at buying a Cat 247 or 257. Around here about the only thing a skid steer gets used for is cleaning up the street if job is in a sub division. And to you Special Tool, mine is a track loader, not a dozer. Compaction is not a factor here either. Have a vibrating sheeps foot and do a lot of wok with pull type scrapers behind D8 and D7.
I wasn't saying the skid would compact better, I'd think the skid would actually compact worse. I was just pointing out a another option for a dozer, I've never ran one, but I know they make some 10,000+ pounds. If you have a water truck on site that will compact, but I dout you will be running water during the winter. This is a big reason I decided to start with buying a backhoe, then rent a dozer when I needed one and use the backhoe for compaction.
Palmer78, I think your idea of getting a machine that you can pay for now is a good one especially if you can beat the compliance deadline. You won't have overhead (payments) and when the time comes you can ship it east where the demand is for non compliant engines. I also think your mention of doing more landscape work, could be profitable beyond your imagination. If you can pick up a bunch of little jobs and build a rep for reliability, that will bring in more jobs by referrals and exposure, which in turn will provide the money to buy newer, bigger, compliant equipment and work bigger jobs. Just remember, it's better to have 500 small customers than 5 big ones. If you lose one big one, you've lost 20% of your income, whereas if you lose one little one you've only lost less than 1%. Starting off small with what you can afford is where it's at. Good luck and let us know what you decide.
Have you thought about a International or dresser td-7e or g model? You could probably get one for 10 to 14 thousand range.They are a tough little dozer and they are easy to work on.
What would you consider "compacted pretty well"? Like compacted enough to not sink a small car when driving over it, or compacted enough to pass a compaction test and build a house on?
Ha-ha. We do not overdig foundations here, everthing must be on undisturbed soil, unless there is a water condition which affects bearing - in which case the engineer is called. My company is the one which also pours the footings, so I see to it personally. The 450 will compact well enough on a slope to the limit of its gradability to not have my silt fence full of mud-slide after a bunch of rain.
Gotcha... That makes sense now. You guys build everything on undisturbed soil? Is that required? Around here most buildings are on slabs, which means most of the time part of the slab in on fill. It has to pass a compaction test to build on, and to do that it has to be 90% compacted. I think that would be hard to achieve with just a 450 dozer. Now if the house is going on a stem wall footings are in undisturbed.
Yes, we must be atleast 42 inches deep here to put a structure on.
Hello, I'm brand new to the forum but have been reading daily. I've owned a 450C for three years now. I use it in my logging business and for a little machine it does an awful lot on very little fuel.
Yes Palmer: And our govmt. dont have the slighest clue why our economey is in a decline. That is just one small example of them not wanting the little man to be in business. He has been the backbone of America, but now a whippin boy. We have been regulated, permitted, licensed, & taxed to death. Example. I needed another bulding for my equipement storage. Had my property split. Put up my bulding. Went to apply for a septic permit. Found out it was going to cost at least $40. K for all the EPA tests certification, engenering studys. I closed up let my help go, rezoned that part of ground to agrculture, then the county issued me a permit to do it myself. (before they would not allow me to do it) and it only cost $1200. And to be frank with you I have no intentions of using help and feeding the govt. any more. I've got enough work to more than take care of myself. At my age why should I be bothered with all the hassle and just make money for them. I still remember the story of the "Little Red Hen". And I am tired of being pecked to death by the old rooster (GOVT). I work over half the year just to pay all the fees associated of being in business myself. Maybe this recession, which is headed toward a full blown depression will wake a few people up. The last 30 years out schols have been wasting money teaching our kids how to put a condom on, instead of real history and what made this country great. What made it great: Men just like you, who took a chance and worked relentlesly to make a better life for YOU.
John White,:Banghead You hit it right on the head. Regulation, regulation, regulation, permits, permits, permits, red tape, red tape, red tape. I am just like you. Need a bigger shop, have the land for it but county won't let me do it. I to have gotten rid of the help which in a lot of ways was more hinderance than help. Babysit, babysit babysit. I am old enough here too that I am going it alone and hook up with a couple of other guys like me when we want to take something bigger. lot less headaches.:drinkup
I have a JD 450c that I love cant wear it out. Bought it new we have put several undercarriges on it and never been into the motor. Great little dozers!!!
450c were great little machines I know them quite well I was turned a many a wrench on 450's especially 450'c's. you have to be carefull there are a lot of things to look for when looking a used 450c i cant tell you how many sad stories of people judt like you that went to an auction and paid 8-10 thousand dollars for a machine and bring it to us to find out that it needed 20 thousand worth of work to make it usable. you could pick up a 450H in the low twenties and have a very low payment and a dozer that would be a lot more dependable that an old C model. dont get me wrong I loved them in there day but unless you found someone that took very good care of it maybe a one owner you could get burned badly.
One more thing G Model. Got a really good dependable dozer here in that size range. It is Called a Caterpillar D3. I will no more think about buying a 450H or any other deere machine for that matter. If it digs in the dirt here it is CAT!!! A lot of others have the same attitude I do.
sorry but Deere own the small crawler market share in the under 115 horse class and that fact is un disputable. Back when the H crawlers were out 450's had about a 70% market share.
I'm tired of GREG never saying anything other than he likes CAT and everything else is a piece of junk. OK you like CAT, we get it. It's time to move on already.
VERY,very well said.I cut my teeth on Deere dozers--from a 350 B to a 450B,then C,now my D--thousands of hours on all of them for 35 years---NEVER any kind of catastrophic failure on any of them.As said,best all around by far--matter of fact the only other dozer that is close in power and dependability is IH or now Dresser--500's,TD7's and 8's.Cat isn't even in the same ballpark in this category.