So I have to remove the wheels on my machine. I think they have been there for... let's say 30 years, what methods would you employ for this task? What I have tried: Brute Force with a breaking bar and a 6 foot for leverage Penetrating oil with the breaking bar and 6 foot pipe for leverage I have not tried heat on the wheel yet, but take a look at the thickness on the plate of the wheel, do you think it will work? The bolts are 1 1/8" hex head and I broke my breaker bar earlier today trying to work it back and forth. Not one would budge.
Try heating them then take some candles like for a cake and see if you can get tha wax to draw into the threads.
give them a good smack with a hammer...like 10lb'r
Might cost you a few bucks for the road trip, but if you're removing all 4 wheels and they all look like that, call your local truck tire shop to send a road truck out with his bohunkin air impact to bust 'em loose. It'll be worth the money spent.
Yup, 1" air wrench pop those like buttah, either zip them out or twist them off, either way, first problem solved! That's probably what put them on... Smacking them hard a couple times with the BFH as DK88 suggests may also work, I have had some success with it! Looks like they're tapered lug bolts?
Like DK88 said, hit them with a small sledge several times. Try to turn them as if you were tightening them, then try removing them. I have good results doing that. I think it makes the bolt stretch. That method has never failed for me, especially on drain plugs in transmissions and differentials.
Yair . . . zmountain . I believe all good suggestions. Too much brute force though with a long bar or a big impact and you can turn the heads off, less danger of this with an impact as the vibrations seem to help. I suggest a combination of techniques. Believe me I have been confronted by this problem and this is what I would do . . . one thing you have going for you is the bolts are easy to get at. First thing I would check is that the bolts are going into blind holes and, on the inside, you don't have half inch of bolt projecting through a flange. If they are projecting they need to freed of rust and corrosion or chopped of flush before you start. You will need a pack of twelve inch candles. An offsider who can deliver a good square hit with a ten pound hammer. A ten pound hammer. An oxy set. The largest oxy welding tip you can get hold of, you want concentrated heat not a rosebud. Wind the amps up on the oxy to the hottest flame you can get and concentrate the heat on the bolt head and get the sucker glowing red and almost melting, step back and get your off sider to deliver a couple of good whacks as square as he can get them and then feed a candle onto the side of the bolt head from the top. You will deform the head and you may need to go to a metric size socket to back them out, they can be dressed back to size later. An alternative plan is to give them a good whack and weld on some nuts preferably high-nuts (in your case they would be inch) and when I say weld them on I mean put a good weld on first and then pour it on and over weld it. Feed a stick or some wire into the centre of the nut anywhere you can get some weld to stick, it doesn't have to look pretty, you are just putting in heat and expanding that bolt . . . the welded on nut comes off easy with a dropsaw and the grinder is your friend. The thing needs to cool down to ambient and with either method I would be disappointed if they didn't back out fairly easily. If you are doing the whole machine I would work on alternative wheels over a few sessions. You want to have the highest difference possible between the bolt you are heating and the flange it's screwing into. I just read this post and it does sound a carry on but when dismantling trawler winches this was a common scenario and these methods do work. An interesting effect of the first method of heating and whacking was that when the parts cooled our there was often a few thou gap under the head of the bolt which obviously relieved some of the clamping force. Cheers.
I bet they're sticking in exactly the half inch Scrub describes. They don't look all that rusty though for as old as they are. That rust on the bolt sticking out the back won't keep them from breaking loose, but it might bind up the threads and if they start to gall then you'll destroy the threads in the axle. If you can get them cracked loose, you can use any number of lubes on the part of the bolt sticking through to work them back and forth until they'll turn out easily. An impact will seize up the threads just as sure as honking them out without working them loose first. What size was the breaker bar that you broke? A 1" Chinese breaker bar should be enough without taking it to the next level. There's hardly any rust at all showing in the pic.
Since they seem to sit slightly below the surface of the wheel face, I think they are tapered just below the head. And I broke the breaker bar where the square pin slips into the 1 1/8" socket. I discussed it with my neighbor, who owns a mobile truck service company and we will be attempting to use a 1" impact wrench. I will see if the bolts protrude through the back, at first glance, I didn't see them or feel them. If I need to, I will cut them flush if they do run through and are rusty. I have seen the wax trick before, never tried it. Will see where I get on Saturday morning.
A neighbor with 1" impact is almost as good as a brother with a lathe or milling machine! Good luck!
Candles are good. Real Bees wax is harder to find but that is "God's penetrating oil." In 20 years I think I've only had 1 or 2 things I couldnt get apart with a little heat and some help from the lord in the form of that stuff.
The method that I use is, put a shallow well socket with a spacer of sort, a washer or a thin jamb nut, on a breaker bar, put it on the bolt, then while turning it with all the force you can muster,hit the end of the breaker bar with a 4lb. hammer hard. The impact will drive the bolt in so the threads momentarily loosen and it will turn if you are twisting it. It may take a few hits, but it has never failed to work for me. It won't break off bolts like a impact will because the impact is straight in not rotating. Yeah I know it is tool abuse, but it's what a tool is used for, to get a job done, and yes I use my Snappy breaker bar to do this or my Proto.
Another good tip: If you can go to the inside of the rim, and see the bolt threads, use a small screwdriver with a "pic end", that you can use to scrape the threads clean. Then use a small wire brush to clean any exposed bolt threads. Then, spray penetrating spray and let set awhile. Spray again on both ends and give it another try.
I would go with what repowerguy suggested, as that's where I'd start before getting heat into it ..... Only ever use hear as a last resort
Alot of really good techniques here. Also realize alot of the bonding is from the 4 inch center hole perimeter rust and the flat surface behind it. Try some penatrent on the backside followed by atf. if all but a few come loose restart the rest of the lugs less a half turn drive back and forth a few feet respray and hammer perimeter.
I got them all off today. Crawled in behind the wheel to see how far they protruded and it was only an 8th of an inch and they didn't really have much rust must on them. But, in the interest of trying as many things I could, I picked one and cut it off flush so I could see if it helped. Manually, nothing. So, rather than wasting any more time, I went out to get a 1" impact wrench. Came home, put some air to it and zip! All of them came right off no problem. In this case, I just needed the right tool. You can see the bolt below. And of course to continue my job, I found out I have to go buy a few more tools. Found 1 1/2" bolts behind the wheel to hold the axle up, of course I only have up to 1 1/4". I hope those will break free!
Looks like never-sieze on the threads, bet you a beer the tapered heads were the main friction spot... and they were knocked in with a comparable air tool. Good job! :drinkup
Yeah, I am pretty sure that the taper was rusted on the wheel face. If you look at the taper, it looks like freshly sheered steel. Probably where the two tapers were fused by rust. BUT MAN DO I LIKE THE POWER OF THE 1" IMPACT. I thank everyone for their suggestions and will be sure to refer to them when I am in the face of an stubborn bolt.
Guys in my shop can tell you I preach to them "if it don't get Locktite...it gets Never-sieze!"
Yup , looks like it had the old grey anti sieze on the threads . They seem to lock tight on the tapered shoulder . When changing / swapping tires on a car, truck or dozer I like to lube the threads & shoulder up good with oil/grease or some form of anti seize if you plan on removing them in the future . Although there still is somewhat of a debate on the subject lubing wheel studs . LOL!
that's just cause you might still be working when it needs to be removed again!!! LOL I use plenty of it also
A: I sure hope so. B: Yes, like machine cover panels and belly panels, they get greased with Never seize. Heck, I even use it on spark plug threads on the rare occasion I work on a spark engine.
like a buddy of mine tells all the new guys "its even good on a ham sandwich" LOL
In all honesty, as much as I use it, I've probably had it on a ham sandwich, that stuff has a way of getting on everything you touch.
The one problem with anti-seize compounds is that if the OEM didn't use it in their initial assembly and it's used while doing repair work the OEM torque spec (if there is one) is probably anywhere from 150% to double what is needed to get the required bolt tightness because of the reduction in friction, especially if applied to the threads and the taper on a bolt like the one in the photo above. I've seen bolts broken that way.
Good point Nige . That's where common experience comes in . After a few broken bolts or stripped threads a young feller will finally get the feel on how hard pull on a wrench in a given situation . Track pads , wheels , & engines require good threads in order to get a firm stretch on the bolt or stud to keep things tight . To keep threads in top shape I like to use some type of lube on them . It's pretty rare for myself to reach for a torque wrench . After awhile .... Well .... You just get the feel for it .
Amen, same here for me TD. Aside from torque specific fasteners, such as head bolts on an engine, I rarely if not never use a torque wrench. I've been working with all manner of fasteners for so many years that the feel in my hands on the tool is the torque wrench. :drinkup
Yair . . . So you fellers have that click thing in your elbow too? (big grin) Cheers
My wrist clicks on inch pound stuff, elbow is for foot pound!
That's it! LoL
With all the smart talking, was wondering if anybody was going to mention engine assembly. Nobody is that good. It's one of the only jobs I use a torque wrench for, too. That and stuff that involves aluminum. **truck wheels not included** Then, if there is a torque spec, it gets followed. Also, there are those rare wheel bearings that require "rolling torque". Never have quite gotten what THAT engineer was thinking when he dreamed that up.
If your looking for the bees wax you can just get a toilet seal. It also works great on a band saw for lube
Cat articulation hitch bearings have to be set at a "rolling torque" also. My point about the use of anti-seize is when it's used in conjunction with a specified amount of foot pounds of torque on the bolt when the manual doesn't call for anti-seize. I had a situation once where an entire front wheel and spindle assembly fell off a truck in the shop during reassembly after a suspension replacement when a set of new brand bolts holding the spindle assembly to the taper on the bottom of the suspension let go simply because the assembly procedure didn't call for anti-seize and the mechanic liberally lathered the bolts with it, then pulled them up to the manufacturer's specifed torque. 12 x 1" bolts (rapidly followed by a 4000lb wheel group) came down faster than the zipper in your jeans ........
Yair . . . Okay fellers, I'll show my ignorance again, what is "rolling torque" and how do you set it? Cheers.
It's how much torque is required to rotate whatever assembly the bearings support. It requires the use of a dial-type torque wrench, and you'll find that the amount of torque required to start the assembly rotating is always slightly higher than that which is required to keep it rolling. Generally rolling torque is specified on a pair of taper roller bearings and the adjustment is made by using shims under the bearing cap or a big adjusting nut on the spindle.
Another rolling torque procedure was to wrap the shaft or hub with a fine wire and use a spring scale to measure the force needed to keep it turning by pulling the wire.
Ah, what I would call preload on the bearings, used to do final drives with a string wrapped around the hub and a fish scale... with the duo-cone seal left out, then disassemble, install seal and reassemble... fun.
LOL! Never would have thought of that, bowl-wax seal, yeah!
Yair . . . . Gotcha fellers, same familiar old ****, just high falutin' different name . . . I always thought the classic was bevel gear/cross shafts, whatever you want to call them. You set the preload on the bearings and then pull it all to bits, fit the bevel gear and start swapping shims around to get contact pattern and backlash . . . as l antraxco mentions fun. Cheers.
Bees wax also works good on burr bit on die grinder on aluminum to keep it from clogging up.
Figure this is a good spot to drop this back in since heating up things with a torch came up;
About that calibrated elbow thing... On Head bolt application that call for the torque turn method, you can feel when the specified final angle s reached almost without fail( with new head bolts of course ) . How ever I still mark them anyway just in case. I have checked out those fancy torque wrenches on the tool truck that can do angle measurement, but they look to fragile to me.