Hi my name is Tom, new member, I'm a student at University of Illinois Chicago. We are looking at how people repair heavy equipment and finding ways to improve the experience of everyone from technicians and engineers at larger companies to self-employed contractors. We are specifically looking at: How people identify a specific problem in a machine. How a defective part itself is then identified (via serial number of part, finding it in physical manuals, etc). How that part is ordered. We have been focusing on Cat machinery, but are open to any machine type. If any of you have any experiences you’d like to share, it would be incredibly valuable. We'd love to hear about problems you often encounter, experiences or products you feel could be made better (from the ease of identifying faulty parts, through to how complicated manuals are), how you learned, or how you are currently learning. All comments are welcome from people who want to vent frustration, to those who would love to share methods to help others. Also if any of you would be interested in maybe in the future giving a short amount of time in the future for a interview over the phone, please let me know. Thanks
Well since you are focusing on Cat machines I'll talk about SIS. SIS is pretty much our one stop shop for shop manuals, operation manuals, service letters, parts diagrams, and so on. The main bone I have to pick with it is it is laid out and stuff is written very engineerish. Sometimes it takes me some re-readings of instructions to "get it". Sometimes it's hard to find a part that should be easy to find in the manual because they put it in a weird location that probably made sense to them. And finally, it drives me up the damn wall trying to search and find something sometimes because different terms are used for a particular item. I'm continually learning to navigate SIS better but some days it can be very frustrating.
If you want to see how a service manual should be written and laid out, look at a copy of a Cat or AC manual from the 60's. We used to laugh at the white lab coat mechanics standing next to some massive piece suspended by a sky hook. The people that wrote the text made it simple enough for a beginner, but complex and theoretical enough for experienced hands. John Deere parts books would give you part numbers for bolts nuts and washers and give you the actual size also. This is a huge time and money saver when in the field.
Most people will never get it. You can't do my job, and nobody can just tell you how to do it. Keep on driving my labor rates up because of a shortage qualified competition. Thanks
Let's see..... Center joint, center pivot, pivot, rotary manifold, center can, hydraulic rotater, I'm sure I have missed a few. Depending on who you are speaking with they could call that thing in the middle of an excavator or crane that allows hydraulic fluid to pass between the pump and tracks any of those names. The same name game applies to a lot more parts also. (Don't even get me started on farm equipment) Since technocracy has brought us to facial recognition why not apply that to parts lookup? Take a picture of a part, indicate the machine and get a part number with dimensions, diagram and fitment.
Yeah—we found this. The design of these manuals seems really poorly done, or at least like you say, much more engineering focused than user focused. What would you think about something digital which you could use on a computer or device which would allow you you to reference a part and could then pull together all pages with that part in it—it might be bad for similar parts like bolts, but if you could refine it using another term perhaps that could give you all the info you needed much quicker. Do you find you need the paper or physical version for reference?
This is totally something we wanted to look at. I have a weird question to ask in this regard—instead of using images (we also wanted to explore a lower tech way of doing this), if I used questions to find the part and only had 20 questions, what could be the most important questions or best way to get to any specific part on a machine? Would you say it would be best to start with the location of the part (is it in the front/middle/back)... what 20 questions (or less) could define any part on a machine do you think?
That's really interesting—was it the usability for beginners plus its depth that made it so helpful, or the specific details like part numbers and dimensions which helped so much? Do you think the manuals have gotten worse since the 60s? If yes, any idea as to why, or anything you could point out which got worse?
We already have alpha, sectional, part number and major group/component searches. Any of them would be great if there was any consistency across the board. Wasn't there an electronic game on the market a few years ago that would correctly identify anything in the world by asking 20 questions or less?
The main problem "as I see it" is, the new wave/generation of "engineers".. The NOMENCLATURE has changed.. Such as a "cheese head" screw?? The manuals of the 60's called a screw a screw, a bolt a bolt, what size it was, ie: thread, length and head size and told you which way to actually turn it, to tighten or loosen.. They were written in a way a "farmer" w/ limited schooling, could look at a picture and work on & repair the equipment. The biggest problem back then, was coming up w/ the money to BUY the manual.. but once you had it.. that was ALL you needed.. Look at ANY parts manual or service manual written in the last 10 years and go to the injection pump/fuel system.. All you get is.. MAYBE some half assed instruction on how to pull the injection pump off.. AND THEN..send the system to and authorized shop.. where your at the mercy of the shop and their rates.. The OLDER manuals actually broke the system down and detailed instructions on how to repair/overhaul it.. that's why older manuals from the 60's & 70's are so valuable..
When the information first started going digital, I found it incredibly frustrating trying to use a computer for the job. However as time has gone on, computers have got faster and SIS has improved and not having a paper version is hardly a problem any more. One exception is schematics which are ideally viewed full size, but with experience and practise, you get used to it.
I have some Grove manuals for my TMS 300's and 250's, from the late 70's. They are some of the best manuals ever made (in my opinion). There is a parts manual, every part on the crane, with part numbers and diagrams, if a repair kit is available for a certain item, it has its own listing (ex. hydraulic cylinder seal kit). The service manual is even better. They had a complete engine book, transmission book (both with pictures of complete tear down and reassembly) . A full step by step troubleshooting section. The crane portion shows complete tear down of individual components, with pictures of disassembly and reassembly. For example- the winches show a step by step disassembly and reassembly, showing how the parts work and fit, and how to tear it down, and reassemble. The service books would cost quite a bit to make today, but to me they are worth it. I always say you could air drop a old grove, in a third world country, and with a set of books, and a minimal set of tools, fix anything wrong with it. Take your diagnostic machine/ laptop, and throw them out the window. It was easier for grove also to justify the cost of making the books the first time, because they made the same models for so long. The first tms300's came out in 1972, I think the last ones were early 90's. They didn't have a bunch of engineers, trying to justify their existence on the payroll, by redesigning some portion of the crane every year. The crane was a good model, well designed from the start, and they saw no reason to change for change's sake. Today's Grove GMK series (all terrain cranes) don't even come with a service manual! Grove can't justify the cost, they say, for so many different models, and I can see it because they are constantly redesigning things. Full power booms, locking pin booms. Cable extend booms. Some have 3 telescope cylinders, some two- some only one. Some single engine, some dual engine. Fixed jib, luffing jib, hydraulic power luffing swing away. Different driveline and axle, and suspension arrangements. All you get with a multi million dollar crane is a parts disc, and you can send your mechanic to their service school. Which only covers the newest models. What if your mechanic leaves? I know- call the dealer. Except my nearest dealer is 4 hours away. That's great when you've got a load in the air and the crane quits working right, or your dead on the side of the road (with a 100.000lb machine)- I can call in and wait two days for the dealer to show up with his special computer. You can take your computer program, and computer parts systems and shove them. If my manual from 1977 was on a computer from then, how would I read it today? Try looking up parts on a microfiche machine, I've done it, and it isn't any fun. What are the odds that the computer program from today, will be able to be read in 20 years, even 10? The operating systems become obsolete, then you can't read the manual. "contact the manufacturer"--- Who knows which manufacturer is going to be around in 5- 10 or 15 years. I've got machines from obsolete company's, if I've got a book manual, I can still see how something comes apart. I know everyone today wants all their info on their phone or laptop, I have all my equipment listed on my phone with serial #'s for convienence, but I can still read my manual from 1977, even if it was in a different language, I could still look at the pictures. I like my pictures on my phone and computer, but unless someone makes a hard copy of them, I can't see my kids in 30 years looking at pictures of what dad did, way back when, like I can look at a picture of my grandfathers farm. So- to end my rant- I prefer a hard copy, paper manual, 3 ring binder, with no computer interface connection, or dealer only servicable/identifiable items. Don't make me have your "special" computer program, or ones that only the dealer can access. You want to make a repair program, don't let a engineer write it , have a mechanic write it. You want to see a real manual- go on ebay- find a tms 300 service/repair manual and parts manual, and drop $100 and buy one. Look through it. Don't reinvent the wheel.
I have always felt that it should be a requirement to have 20 years field experience as a mechanic before you write service manuals. When when your back hurts and your hands are junk its time to consult for the service manual writers. I don't believe todays manufacturers ask the field for feedback anymore like they did years ago. Even 25 years ago the manufacturer would pay a field visit when we got a new crane, see how you were doing, and ask your opinion. Now they push everything to a poor website with stupid questions with no right answers, only answers they can use to promote themselves. Bring back the experienced personal touch.
I like a combination of a tangible book and some computer access. I like the book for the same reasons crane op does. I don't need power, internet etc to find the info I need. I agree with everything said so far. I believe Cat has the best mfr based system for manuals or parts. The parts side becomes more challenging on older machines as many parts have changed numbers multiple times. Some sort of cross reference by part number, description, location etc that you can narrow the search area down. Sometimes the place the part you need isn't even close to logical. The D11N parts book written back in the day is easy to use. SIS version seems counterintuitive for certain parts. I have also seen a reduction in the sub assembly rebuild instructions. I don't know if it's due to lack of people doing it these days or if it's a cost of producing said instructions. The old manuals literally looked like they built or disassembled a machine while a photographer clicked away. I dig the lab coats I think some things have gotten so technical it's hard to include all that info in a manual. However, for what a machine costs and a factory service manual costs it should have everything in it. Cat does have the best info value hands down with SIS/ET. Just my humble .02. Haven't said anything new I don't think...... Junkyard
I resemble that! LOL..... I think we would all like pages to turn on real paper for the convenience and speed it offers. The computer is great for pricing but I still want the parts guy to pull the part so I don't waste a trip. Never fear.... Techno babble is stopping production! I farm and clearly understand how weather impacts excavation and AG production. Not as a first choice, but occasionally as an only choice, we are sometimes pressed to get-r-done now because of weather or other factors outside our control. Now, a piece of equipment that cost 10 fold what I paid for my first house sends a signal to mother Deere to shut the process down and I'm dead in the water. I can't do **** with my ag equipment without a proprietary diagnostic computer (to include replacing hard parts because they have to be identified to the system) and JD owns the technology. Bottom line... Wait for a service tech and walk to the truck and go to the restaurant because you are suspended pending the teenager who is on his way. My favorite, I get a call from a computer scheduling a " critical maintenance" visit because the ***king combine told JD my muffler bearings were loose and I need to shut down ASAP. Best practice: don't ignore the computer because the satellite will shut you down within a few more operating hours if ignored.
Good points crane op ! I as well like the hard copy " book " on repair & service . My take on a new piece of equipment sold today without a complete service manual on paper is the companies fear of it being copied by another manufacturer ? If a customer shells out the cash on a brand new " whatever " why else would it not come with all the books & information on it ? No idea ?
I'm just interested in how likely you or others are to have a printer around—if you had something digital which allowed you to print would that help or does that just mean you have to buy a printer and fix that every time it goes down too ?
With all due respect TD. ARE YOU NEW? Deere prevailed in a 2015 suit brought by an owner of their equipment asserting he had full right to the tech required to make his machine operate. NOT. Bottom line: you only own the iron not the right to keep it running without Deere. Check this article: https://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/
Thanks—that is all super helpful! I'd love to find one of those older manuals and measure them against the newer ones. I love the idea of putting the power back in the hands of everyone and decentralizing information and systems which aren't dealer specific or can only be accessed by "the man". This might sound like a stupid question, but could you give me a quick description of the difference between an engineer and a mechanic in your eyes? In terms of trust, do you trust a mechanic more than an engineer?
I think there might have been—the approach we wanted to explore was how we could describe any part on the machine in as few a questions as possible. Whether by starting with general location, and drilling down to material or something like that we would be able to identify a bolt here, or a washer there. Sorry to be a complete noob, but would you mind explaining the alpha, sectional and major group/component searches and how they work—is this done by assembly and sub-assembly in a physical manual?
Manuals in the old days? We seldom had them. The machines were simple enough to figure out. Sometimes we'd call the dealer for torque specs on cylinder heads, that's about all. I find most service manuals to be 85% useless and a huge distraction. For one thing, they are written by people who are accountable to engineers and to write a manual correctly one must point to all the engineers mistakes and call a spade a spade. Manual writers wouldn't have a job if they did so. Yes, I drew distinctions when I repaired things. One third of my time was spent correcting failures caused by normal wear and tear, one third of my time was spent correcting failures caused by neglect and abuse and one third of my time was spent correcting failures caused by engineers mistakes and malicious planned in obsolescence. Manual writers always pretend the latter category does not exist.
Rather than explaining I'll direct you to the experience! Since construction parts are a secret for the most part I'll send you to AG parts. The link I provided takes a lot of confusion out of the way getting there. I have you setup to find parts for a 4020, arguably, the best tractor John Deere ever built. The 4020 is an extremely popular and collectible tractor who's engine is still in production in various forms. Albeit the 4020 is not a tractor used on much more than hobby farms now Deere has had 60 years to get the manual right. Your mission in learning what we deal with form day to day is to provide me the part number and price of a hammer strap for a 1968 4020 Deere. Hint: the hammer strap is part of the drawbar..... http://www.deere.com/en_US/parts/parts_by_industry/ag/agricultural_parts.page?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Grove-Crane...957649?hash=item1eb0e726d1:g:-Y0AAOSwIzNXOglC
Some engineers I know are the smartest people I know. Some mechanics I know are also some of the smartest people I know. I see things constantly on new equipment and think "some stupid engineer that has never been in the field, designed this piece of $%^#." Typically it is stuff that is designed too fragile for field use, more complicated than it needs to be, or impossible to get at and fix when it breaks, quite possibly all three at the same time. A engineer may look at a engine compartment and think " how elegant and efficient they were with the use of space, and put all this equipment in this compact area". A mechanic may look and think "how do I change this starter, without dismantling the entire exhaust system?" I think "what would it have hurt, to have the compartment 4" wider?" A few easy examples for you: On "new" ford pickups, to work on the heads of the engine- they remove the bed, then remove the entire cab of the truck, and set it where the bed was- just to get access to the motor. Read some of wille59's posts on working on bobcat skid loaders. Here's a article on def contamination: to sum it up- go work in a environment where they are constantly moving dirt/rock, open a lid, pour liquids around, but get absolutely no contamination. http://www.equipmentworld.com/def-contamination-and-how-to-avoid-it/ A engineer says "just don't get any contamination". Any mechanic will tell you "in that kind of environment- we're going to get contamination". Perhaps I find that most older mechanics have much more real world experience, than most engineers get. The mechanic deals with equipment every day, and sees the weak areas and strong of all kinds. Most engineers graduate college, push paper climbing the corporate ladder, and more than likely have little clue how the equipment they are redesigning gets used in the real world, they just get told- make this fit in here. Things get decided in board rooms, meeting rooms and group think sessions, which don't tend to be places where someone raises their hand and says "this is stupid and will never work in the field", because they've never been in the field. Many things look great on a computer model, but don't work in the real world. Not seeing the forest for the trees- so to speak.
I knew there was reason I stayed with Minneapolis - Moline . Thanks for the link Planedriver . I do remember hearing about the story . This is nothing new . These cat's are spooked big time over there product being copied & modified without Deere's blessing . Free market has a way of correcting itself on supply & demand end . If it gets to the point the dealer is to expensive or can't handle the work load diagnosing tech problems on software ???? Customer will hire an independent twenty something old " Shade Tree Hacker " to make Johnny Popper move again . And all will be well
TD, I see you are South of me. Just an FYI... There is an AG equipment dealer near me who has building after building FULL of MM equipment. Some like I have never seen before. Turns out he has been hoarding the stuff for 50+ years. He is usually pretty good about letting people poke around and look at it all. He won't fess up to owning a UDLX but we all think he has one buried somewhere. If you ever get to the middle of Michigan let me know and I'll see if you can't get a tour.
An engineer is one who designs things. A mechanic is one charged with maintaining and repairing things. Engineers are arrogant people who claim to never make mistakes and their machine is designed to maximize the return on the investment and anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid, ignorant and to be minimized in any way possible. Mechanics have to live with engineer's mistakes and arrogance. Professional mechanics are people trained and experienced in solving problems as best they can. Troubleshooting problems is a process involving basic knowledge of how an asset is supposed to work, what the components of the asset are and the skill and intuition to find the problem and fix it in the quickest and least expensive way possible. The service manual issue is a red hearing at this time and age. The real issue is the method of transfer of knowledge. It is now digital and in the hands of the factory people instead of in the machine where it belongs. The service and parts manuals should be part of and accessible inside the machine architecture. It will not be long before the machine will tell mechanics what the problem is and what component needs to be repaired in order to put the machine back in production again. At that point in time a professional mechanic will cease to exist and all you will have left are parts changers.
That is already happening, at least in AG equipment. see post #15.
all engineers that design any equipment should be made to work hands on for at least 5 years fixing and using what they want to design and you will see a big difference on how equipment would be designed for repairs and better thought out design for use...
I think the problem is their employers who tell them to design them as un-user-friendly as possible with as much parts overlap as they can dream up and tangle the electronics into an unfathomably complex nightmare so they can sell more people new machines every 5 years. Lets face it. It's not in the interests of the manufacturers nor the bankers if we keep repairing our equipment and make them last 14,000 hours.
aint that the truth, and to go 1 step further, john deere has made their software proprietary and only allow licensed john deere people to work on it...here is the link, it forces you to go back to john deere for anything.. http://www.equipmentworld.com/ownership-and-machine-software/
That would be a cool tour for sure Planedriver of the MM equipment . I would really enjoy that ! Pretty amazing how far innovations have came in the last 30 years . Makes ya wonder where it's all going in the future ? My simple future prediction is the high tech computer / GPS controlled equipment will reach a high point at some time? Then after the peak customers will get tired & frustrated with it & go back to an operator in the cab with some assistance from tech . I'm a big Jon Kinzenbaw fan . His take was " it aint rocket science , just listen to the customer " . Always liked his " out side the box " thinking when repowering John Deere tractors with Detroit & Cummins engines. http://www.kinze.com/about.aspx http://www.kinze.com/history.aspx#.WLDZYyAo5jp
Yair . . . I saw a thing that amused me in a post from Nige on another thread and Nige knows his bickies I thought he summed up the problem with modern machinery beautifully and he probably did not realise the take old bastards like me would have on his accurate diagnostics on the undercarriage of (I think) a high track D6. The discussion was about track frame alignment and wear and Nige stated 1/16" of inch of movement was excessive wear in the (I think) spherical bearings on the ends of the equalizer bar . . . obviously with precision bearings this would be the case. What I ask is why the hell they are there in the first place? For what sixty or seventy years Cats and other crawler tractors got by with the equalizer ends floating on the track frame why put precision in such an improbable place . . . one sixteenth slop underneath a D6 and its time for repairs???? bloody unbelievable. The dirt and rock and timber remains the same but we a building ever my complex and sophisticated machines to deal with it to the detriment of the folks trying to do the work. Cheers.
I'll just leave this here...
I understand what your saying, but don't you think fuel pumps and injectors should be handled by "authorized" shops? Sure, the pump-line-nozzle stuff is straight forward enough to handle in the field but once you get into the axial/rotary/inline pumps or the high pressure and common rail systems I don't think average mechanics shoulld be messing a round with them. I'll never forget going to this guys shop, he was swapping a 4BT into a jeep or something, there was a room nearby where he had halfway tore into the VE pump and I guess his brother decided to start a drywall job above him on the 2nd floor, a sheet of drywall crumbled apart right above the table the pump was on and it total ruined it, covered it inside and out with drywall debris. And I have a couple of my own horror stories but Ill save those for later.
I agree. Alot of those older manuals are beautiful! What I have seen to remedy this is people literally scanning and converting old manuals to .pdf files. That way, your looking at the original manual, scrolling through all the pages, and sometimes you can even search the text. And for me its nice, I work on ANYTHING diesel so it saves alot of room and money. I have a folder on my computer with alphabetized manufacturers so I can quickly find service or parts manuals that I have saved
This is interesting, you should do a similar topic on an engineering board and see what you come up with. I think the biggest difference is the lifestyle. I respect engineers, and If I was more studious I would have liked to be one. But it does seem like there's a big separation between the two, like the mechanics and engineers aren't hanging out at the same bars, you know what I mean? I don't know who I would trust more.
Whats a mechanic? Were all technicians now!!!! HAHAHA
If somebody is using SIS, chances are they have a printer, and they print out service specs while servicing a machine, good part is you can get the printouts all dirty then just throw em away when your done, I even recycle them sometimes!
Tom y Tom, most OEMs offer some type of free access to there parts systems. CAT, JOHN DEERE, AND CUMMINS all let customers use their parts systems, which makes sense as a customer, I mean why call the parts counter and ask help finding something when you can find it yourself then order it? It saves times and money on both ends, problem is its eliminating some jobs too. So, just look up all those OEMs and make accounts. Then you can actually see how the parts searches work. Most of it is stuck in the 90's in terms of layout and user friendliness. CAT is making moves and doing alot of 3D type color images for parts and diagrams now so thats really cool, but all the sites need a makeover in my opinion.
Mechanics were created so that engineers could have heroes
AMEN to that wrench.. If I had a dollar for every time an engineer told me, "it cant be done, like that" I'd be rich.!! Then I proceeded to fix the problem, "that couldn't be done" LIKE THAT.. I saved 1 manufacture million if not billions of dollars, after they came out w/ a "procedure" to fix a problem under warranty.. THEY ended up rewriting the "procedure" to incorporate MY fix.. HERO?? dam right.. lol THEY probably got a promotion & a fat bonus.. I got more work and LESS TIME to do it in..!!! Life isn't fair.. lol
Couldn't agree more—have seen the back end of some of this stuff and it is SO out of touch and the least user friendly ever!
Quick Question— in response to this https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/06/nebraska-farmers-right-to-repair-john-deere-apple (And not wishing anyone to incriminate themselves/void warranties) anyone ever "hack" a machine (sorry for using the word hack—i'm using it in a broad was to really mean change something to use it in the way it wasn't intended/disable or enable features).. Well, so to switch off alarms or take some control back in to the hand of owners/mechanics—anyone ever do this (or are we all by the book here?)
The most obvious example is "tuners" or chips for removing the emissions carp from diesel engines. The EPA is cracking down on the companies that advertise these products and services. I can't believe that you can't order them from china yet for any application you want. The transmissions aren't any harder, I think there is a market that small ambiguous offshore companies could easily fill. There was a question about reverse engineering something similar recently, unfortunately the guy never followed up, I think he had a real shot at making it work.
Tom G, My big point is that a manual should describe, and picture or illustrate, the *difficult* and the *unexpected* points and parts in servicing and repairing a machine. Wasting illustrations or photo plates on all of the ordinary things is very stupid. Don't need a photo of flange bolts, or case bolts, with the instruction to undo them... Factory people should not design a service manual. You should take an experienced brand/line service technician, have him disassemble a new machine, and you should take note of when and where he is stymied; those novel and unexpected things or operations are the steps that a service manual need to elaborate upon. And *ALWAYS* check, afterwards, that the instructions actually are correct. I just disassembled the PTO gear box on a tractor. The instructions said 'undo the case bolts and lift off the top half of the case'. When I tried to do so, the top half of the case could not be removed! It was hung on something inside of it. A study of the illustration in the manual of the 'after-the-top-half-is-removed' picture of the PTO clutch and gears, showed the PTO clutch selector/actuator fork still attached to the PTO clutch, with the top half of the case removed. The selector fork pivots on the top-part-of-the-case-that-is-supposed-to-be-lifted-off, and the external clutch lever penetrates and pivots in the same/said top part of the case... The top part of the case *cannot* be removed until the outside lever, on one side, and the pivot bolt boss, on the other side, are removed. The service manual *completely* missed and omitted that step!!
Jim D is right about that.. I attended a FACTORY refresher course to keep my certs.. The instructor was showing a slide show OF THE PROCEDURE while we were doing the procedures.. ALMOST EVERY procedure was wrong.. and I would call him on it.. & this was a FACTORY training class.. He made notes.. I doubt anything was changed..
honstly from your posts, im gona question what your real intention is?? sounds like you are a spy from some manufacture to see whats going on so the company can close some loopholes on service and parts monopoly..just my opinion from what your putting out there..and now asking if anyone is breaking the law by hacking into computer systems on equipment...??? gota raise the hairs on the backs of others necks that are reading your threads and posts....
Frankly, I don't mind if someone's intention is to circumvent planned-in obsolescence or circumvent laws that should never have been written. Anything that gives owners of trucks and equipment more control over their expensive purchases is a good thing, even if it gives manufacturers and the feds less control suits me just fine.
Here is my take on the equip the manufacturer holding the programming proprietary. Farmers ,loggers , dirt movers ecu.. don't need to hack in and rewrite code or reprogram ecu and Tcu. Code displays amd descriptions ,wiring diagrams, and a quality volt meter all that is needed to diagnose and repair most issues. With those things I would think I could get that alarm issue resolved on his case, or determine if it is in fact a module internal fault( now the dealership steps in). Problem is often the dealer tech is going to skip the basics and spend hours fiddling with his lab top hoping it is going to tell him fix it inst of checking all the connectors in the circuit and checking for chafing in the harness.
I used to think this, but in my business (generators) there are now far, far too many gross ECM failures and the manufacturer offers no concession. They have increased the level of complexity (cost) without increasing the level of reliability and the warranty is very short. So the customer gets stuck with a huge bill because a tiny part of a very expensive module failed and the whole thing has to be replaced. Or now reflashed, dealer only, customer expense to cover their original mistake. You know they know good and well this is happening because of the frequent hardware and software revisions and the amount of these modules they must be selling over the counter and under warranty. The good news is in this age of information small operators and customers are going to get wise and the brands are going to suffer. Let's hope they can figure out why and change their ways, or better options become available (there are several up and comers in my market making good products).
I suppose holding the programing of engine in particular and machines in general would be something I would be leery about letting just any Tom, Dick and Harry have access to, particularly if I had just spent millions of dollars building it. The other specter is the government regulations I had to comply with and could come back and hold me civilly and possibly criminally liable for something someone else did to my programs. But I don't think that is the real issue at hand. If I spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a machine that I'm basing my economic future on I would expect the kinds of information that would allow me to keep the machine operating as it was marketed to do. If a module goes bad while my combine is harvesting and it shuts down the machine I would expect something in the program to tell me what I have to do to get the machine running again. As the scenario is stated earlier in this thread, that is not happening. Apparently the dealer is notified, by some kind of telematics, who then has to come and replace a part and the owner apparently doesn't have the right to fix his own machine. The owner apparently doesn't have the right to change that module??? That sounds to me like the dealer has inserted themselves as a guarantor of the operation of that machine and by proxy at least partially responsible for the profit on the sale of that crop. The insurance industry calls this co-insurance. The way it works is if you don't insure the value of an asset against loss for its full value and you has a loss, you are then on the hook for the percentage that you underinsured. Applying that to the combine then if it is established that it takes 8 hours to harvest a field and with the down machine it now takes 20 hours and a percentage of the crop is lost because of a weather event or something else, wouldn't the dealer and manufacturer be on the hook for at least part of that loss? I don't think it would take much of a farmer's association of some kind to be able to apply that kind of pressure to the manufacturers to pry something loose.
your missing my point, I personally have no issue with fixing it yourself and saving $$ and if you have to access the computer thats fine, my point was that toom-groom may not be who he says and is waiting for people to admit they tampered with protected equipment..thats all, nothing more nothing less..just my opinion..
I don't know if Deere is shutting you down for worn out muffler bearings but Fed EPA sure is. You got a slightly high water to urea content in yer DEF, guess what, youre gonna be done in short order. The EPA mandates that if ANYTHING is tampered with or signals from sensors are out of range or missing, you're down. Aftertreatment has nothing to do with if your engine is ok. Its about whether or not you're hurting the environment.
Oohhhh what hobbytime said. He could be a EPA jag trying to hang someone who might foolishly admit they tweeked software or deleted an egr or any other host of heinous crimes against the environment
Back to tom_grooms original query, nomenclature. That is your biggest enemy. Cat has SIS Volvo has Prosis and Navistar has ISIS . I'm sure they're all bastardised versions of the same system. On the volvo side , manuals were translated into several languages from several other languages. You have all these translations where someone may not have the same word or meaning , they're like uuhhh, I'll make something up. Sometime they luck out, more often, not.
Sorry. I misunderstood. Although I don't think TG is an agent as such, it sure wouldn't be the first time something like that happened on an internet forum. The best way to deal with that, IMO, is to describe the methods yet never claim to have done it.
Birken, I see very little module failure in my little slice. It is almost always a wire or connector. Maybe two or three ecu failures a year and they are usually self induced, jump cables hooked up backwards or short in harness. Some are chalked up to lightning when there is no other explanation.
I have had my share of customer induced failures but when you are paying a thousand dollars or more for a module, those are things that should be protected against, at least reverse voltage should. I have been working on 2 way radios longer than equipment. Inside they are about the same idea. You can hook a radio up backwards and usually the external fuse is all that fails. Replace, back in business. Sometimes you have to replace an internal diode or fuse near the input, no big deal. I can't recall one that was totally fried. But ECUs are toast when all it would take was a little protection circuitry. These things are way too delicate. Shorted outputs, that would be able to be protected against too if you really wanted to. This stuff needs to be built with the same level of fault tolerance as before it was computerized. It is not hard, or unknown how to do this. Jumper cables, welding, alternator stuck full field, all this will happen from time to time. They need to deal with it. But spontaneous breakage is a bigger problem in my segment.
It must be nice to be able to sell a module for a thousand bucks when it only cost two bucks to make it, then quit selling them after ten years and force customers to borrow money to buy a new machine. What a racket!
Hey—totally understand that this is a touchy subject and that I don't have a huge number of posts, I'm not sure what I can do help with those fears but hopefully in my opinion giving these things more exposure might help those companies become more reactive and actually pay attention to communities like these as active areas where they can engage with real people using their products (who they have a horrible time trying to understand) outside their bubble.
Hey—would you mind pointing out some of these companies and what makes them different, just interested in how they are changing they're way of approaching customers or giving them more power (excuse the pun).
Sure, and I 100% don't want anyone to implicate themselves, but more am interested in the rise of DIY fixers who are responding to the restrictions applied to them by manufacturers and dealers. I'm more interested in motivation than explicit actions/hacks if that helps?