I have the chance to rent a 953 or for 200 bucks more rent a 963. The Guy who rents them is selling me on the 953 for clearing stumps and brush. He says the 953 will be better on gas than the 963 and most guys tear up more stuff on a 963 than they intend to making the job look worse. My concern is that my stumps are anyware from 18"-24" diameter oaks that have been logged off about 6 years ago, so they are somewhat rotted I would assume??. I have dug some with a 40 HP backhoe and was amazed at how good they stayed "stuck" in the ground. The loggers who fell the trees left about 2-3 foot of the tree stump sticking out of the ground to push on. Would you pay the extra 200 to use a 150HP 963 or will the 110HP 953 do the job as the rental guy says. I tend to think that it would be better to have the extra HP? Your thoughts are appreciated as I don't have much experience with stump removal.
First of all I think your rental guy is feeding you a line... You didn't say the length of the rental or whether the '63 is $200 more a day, week, etc. How many acres? What is your time frame for completing the job? What are the underfoot conditions - wet, dry, rocky, ect? The answers the these questions will help in machine selection. The job sounds like an excavator would be more productive if you have more stumps than brush to clean up. A 24" stump will make the '53 work pretty hard, a '63 too. I would inquire about the rental rates for a 325 size excavator. A 60K lb and up size excavator would make the job of stumping 18-24" oaks a lot quicker and with less mess than a loader because you don't have to dig as much around the stump with an excavator compared to a loader. In a perfect world, a '53 cleaning up with a 325 stumping would be the best combo IMO.
CM's got it right, I use slightly smaller units but the principles are the same, I dig with an excavator and use a bucket cat to help pry them out and push them away and level off the holes and that sort of thing, I use the excavator to chip the dirt off the stump once its out and then move onto the next. If I had only one machine to take to the job it would be an excavator, it would take longer but 90% of what needs doing an excavator can do better, I just take along the bucket cat to speed the process up and it does a nicer job of making the area look better afterwards. Way less dirt needs to be moved if you use an excavator first to dig around the stump and also to clean the stump after its out than any bucket cat could ever do alone, I'd tell whoever is renting them to keep his bucket dozer and go find an excavator if your workng alone that has a thumb on it and get something done. If your dealing with brush again use the excavator with a thumb, way more usefull than any bucket cat, the only thing less usefull would be a blade cat, those can be left at home completely in my opinion, I've got several and they never go to any clearing job I've ever done yet unless there's grading to do afterwards. I'm not sure what the ground is going to be used for later and how good it needs to be and what machines you have available that you own already there are plenty of ways to go about it and approaches to take. You also never said whats going to be done with the stumps after you have them out, I presume you don't have enough brush left to burn the stumps with anyhow so if your going to grub them you'll need to bury what doesn't burn and an excavator does that better too. A bucket cat won't shake or pry much dirt off the stumps by itself and the more dirt on them the less likely they'll burn. The next option is to grind the stumps out and just level off the piles and spread out the mulch with a skid steer, if you have a large enough one with high flow then put a stump grinder on that and do it all with one machine, put a grapple on it and a bucket and your pretty much set to go, but again it depends on what the ground is going to be used for later and what it looks like now. I'd need way more information to determine the best way to go about it but there are a lot of options out there to use it just depends on all the variables.
Fred, you should have bought that 955L. But that is a moot point. I am doing what you want to do with a 955K. It does not go as quick as you think. I am no operator, but it is obvious what has to be done. How long are you planning on having to rent the piece? Like I said.. I'm no operator, but it is slow going with the bigger stuff and a high lift. Wags
First of all I appreciate everyone's responses as it has given me more insight to my project. CM and Randy you guys I whole hartly agree with you that an excavator and a bucket machine would be the best option if I were just doing the stumps and had a helper and more $$ to mess with, however my budget is limited and I am only a 1 man show to get the job done. I did fail to mention in my first post that I do have to move around 9-10 tandom axle dump truck loads of dirt about 50 yards to fill in a natural wash for a "logging road pass" to get through/over the wash. I have lots of small trees and thorn bushes to clear in the woods as I hope to push a logging road through and around 50 acres of woods to access areas of the property I cannot get to now (hardly even with walking cause it's so thick!). I thought the best option to get all these tasks done would be a bucket machine and the bigger the better. The propery does not have to look super nice when done, just accessable by ag tractor. CM the ground soil is made up of 6 inches of silty loom top soil and the rest is red clay full of rocks anywhere from the size of a basketball/beach ball down. I had planned on renting the machine for 1 week to push the roads and clear a couple of 3 acre valley out for food plots with the tractor. The remaining parts of the stumps I would push to the side and cut any wood left off of them and just leave them for the wild life. They tend to make rough obsticles on tractors and mowing equipment. I have cut a few down to ground with a chainsaw, but this is really slow and rough work. Having given you guys more information. Now what do you think about what I am attempting to do and would you go with the 953 or 963. Oh and Yes Wagspe 208 your correct every day I think what a deal I missed out on with that 955L but I would have had to sleep with that thing because my wife sure wouldn't let me back in the house had I had bought it-LOL!!! why I don't know-how come wifes just don't understand!! :-(
My thoughts after getting more info would be the '63. More powerful, although heavier but it sounds like your ground conditions could handle it. Both machines are pigs as far as fuel goes. The '63 has a larger bucket so shuttling some fill around would be faster. Just remember that track loaders do not like soft wet areas...
Thanks CM for your expert opinion. I will lean toward the 63 then. I am going to go check it out as I have not seen this guys particular piece of equipement yet. If it looks OK then I will go with it.
Thoughts.... Both machines will have close to the same ground pressure so they will both be equally bad in soft soils the 963 will use approx 25% more fuel the 963 will weigh about 10K more the 963 will have 30-40% more break out force at the bucket the 963 will be substancially faster at things like stump removeal due to its increased weight and breakout force......as for pushing dirt and loading dirt it would only be marginally faster than the 953 (rock would swing back to the bigger machine) so it is really a function of your project if you have lots of stumps and just a little bit of dirt work then the 963 will be the way to go......but if you have FEW stumps and lots of dirt work you would be better value wise to use the 953........if you think you may have a issue in getting all the work in during a Weeks time then bigger is almost always better as a time issue
My only advice based on limited experinece is heed these words: "track loaders do not like soft, wet soil". I am so good at getting mine unstuck I made up purpose built chains. Wags
With the 53, i have to say that with proper technique you can roll them stumps out with not a whole lot of digging and scratching. I've done 18 to 28" stumps or so and all sorts of tree species including Oak and Elm. If you can get at all sides it is best to cut the roots with the bucket from a litttle distance away and gradually work towards the stump. Work in four sides if possible and roll that stump out with the tilt cylinder. When you got that stump loaded in the bucket, and provided you are on stable footing, raise it up and drop it. Dropping it one time will knock more dirt out of the roots than any Ex scratching around in it, plus the dirt stays near the hole where you want it. The real advantage of the track loader is the fact that you have got mobility where the EX is lacking a bit. It sounds to me like you are doing a little more traveling for your purposes which is why I tend to believe you are going to be better off with either one of the loaders. AS for which one, that is up to you, if you feel like dumping in more fuel then go ahead and use the 63, I see no real advantage. Your quicker with the 53 and it uses less fuel, but break out force is higher on the 63 and you will move a little more material per push. To me it seems all in proportion. If you get a loader with a long set of teeth instead of a flat cutting edge you can also use the bucket to kind of rake the roots as well. As for sinking in the mud.........well any loader,dozer, or Ex will do that easy enough. My only thought is pls be careful and always be sure of your footing and CG. Being stuck may be a PITA, but at least your not track high!
Was wandering what purpose built chains exactly are?
My opinion is this, either grind them out or use an excavator with a thumb and frost tooth and forget the bucket cat completely. If its speed your looking for use the excavator, if its farmable land afterwards then grind the stumps, its that simple, try both and see which you want to farm later on, especially a garden basically. I don't mean to rain on your parade here but from what you described your not going to get it done in a week anyhow, you stand a better chance with an excavator than you ever will with a bucket cat but either way its looking slim to none you'll get it done in that amount of time, especially with no prior experience, unless you have virtually no stumps to take out or they are really small, next if your going to grub off 6 acres and pile the stumps up your going to have a pretty big pile and you need to account for clearing a place to pile or shove them as well, you need to clear even more than you think to achieve this. I don't know who's timber your going through and pile this stuff in but I doubt they'll be happy when your done. I can go into long detail about how do to each way and what it'll take and how much dirt you'll need to move and how many rocks you'll bring up but the fastest way to grub is with an excavator with a frost tooth to trace around the stumps and rip them out and that will disturb the least soil vs using a bucket cat, a stump grinder will disturb even less your only going to grind out the heart of the stump and leave all the topsoil intact and the rocks where they belong, down under the topsoil. I don't know what you have for equipment now or plan on having but I'd invest in a skid steer and some attachments and work on it as you go and have something descent to farm later on. Will any system work, yes, the only difference is cost and speed and amount of soil disturbance involved. Unless you take a large excavator and I mean large your probably not going to get it done in a week anyhow. I guess I'd have to say this, in the end does it matter how long it takes, would you rather have dirt to farm or rocks and clay/gravel. You can have a perfect looking garden when your done if you'd like but the best way to go is how your doing it now, by hand and slowly, the more machines you bring in the more rocks and clay you'll farm later on, it just speeds the process up, so you need to determine how fast it needs to be done and how little physical work you want to put in it. If it were me I'd go buy a skid steer and put over the tire tracks on it and invest in some attachments to go on it and I'd take my time and do a nice job and work at is as I went, that way I'd have something to use to maintain this with later on as well and to use for other tasks, sounds like you need some machine help to cut and haul wood and move trees with and maintain your road to it through the timber but that's just me. Best of luck
Fred: I guess the questions that need to be asked here is what is the size of the stumps on the majority of the ground you need to clear? If you are farming as well like I am then you already know what kind of surface conditions you need, and what is acceptable for reseeding after your done. Moreover if the area is to be reseeded to grasses then a rake of some sort will be needed wether it be a rented skidloader rake or on an Ex or trackloader. To be fair to Randy88 and not to question his experience an Ex is a versatile machine no doubht, and highly productive too. But I will say my customers have been more than surprised at the amount of work that I can get done in a day with the 53. Clearing five acres a day (minus the root raking) is not out of the ordinary in lighter stumps, and in heavy work it will take more time fer sure. If you are familiar with a skidlaoder then you already know what they can do on a small scale, do you think that this familiarity with loaders may be beneficial in the end? something to think about....... for me it was an easy transition to larger machines on account of this familiarity. Also....... anoth thing to think about.......iron is been a lot cheaper these days especially for machines of "farm quality" by that I mean most farmers don't use their machines every day, and that leads me to believe that for the cost of the lease maybe a downpayment on a machine? and then keep it for future use, don't work it so hard and get in a hurry? either way an Ex or loader or whatever. I've been glad many times to have this machine for that five minute job around the farm...... IMO it's all something to think about...
Apparently I've missed something here or misunderstood something, I have some simple questions Fred, how many stumps are you talking about? 10, 50. 500? And how much brush, total plants, just ballpark it, next how many trees still attached to a stump and also what size in diameter are they agian ballpark it for me, a picture is worth a thousand words, do you have a picture of the area to post here or several pictures even if you can't see more than 5 feet into the dense brush? I'd like to see the brush your talking about along with the stumps and how close they are together. Was this clear cut or a selective harvest or just a few trees in an old pasture that you are dealing with. And last how overgrown is the area with the stumps in now, is it the over grown junk type stuff your talking about or is that just to get to the valleys and those are pretty good and have very little stuff in them to clear out, these food plots or a couple 3 acre spots are they clear now and all your wanting to do is clear the road to them? I understood you wanted to clear off 5-6 acres of woods to create a food plot area out of old woods, am I wrong and misunderstood your post? and your also clearing a road basically to get to these areas to clear off or is it just a road that needs clearing to get to a spot thats ready to make food plots out of and those spots are farmable now?
Reading the posts in the thread carefully should clear up a lot of things and save a lot of useless posting...specificly post #1 and post #5....will shed the most light
webjeff Thanks Tazz yeah please look at post #1 and #5. Although I do appreciate everyone's input with your experience.
What's the verdict Fred - you going with the 963? We looked at renting too before we bought. The new machine and creature comforts looked awfully inticing. When/if you pull the trigger...I'm interested to hear about your rental experience and how you like the machine you get.
Im am trying to arrange a 963 in a couple of weeks. The guy who rents them seems like a nice guy, he will work with me on bad weather days etc. He also has them for sale. Who knows?? I may do the job and fall in love with the machine, then get kicked out of the house by my wife!! LOL!! Wife = 125lbs Machine = 40,000lbs Don't know the one to choose??? LOL. Seriously I am planning the work out and will look at his machines on Friday. He says he has a couple. Both enclosed cabs.
Just run it for 14 hours straight the first day you get it. That should help you choose. You'll feel like you've got polio when you step off the track.
Today is the day I get the machine. We will try to see if I feel like Iv'e got polio when I am done.
We expect nothing less than a full report with pictures when your done. :yup
Well the machine ran GREAT!!! I got a lot of things completed that would have taken me years to do. Im trying to figure out how to upload photo/s but my images appear to large to be uploaded on this site. Anyway. I put less than 35 hours on the machine and cleared out areas, fields and pushed roads through the brush. I do admit the fellows on here with the advice on stump removal have it best. I do beleieve an excavator followed by another piece of equipment would be the best way to go. Several stumps I just didnt want to take the time to remove them so i went around them. The weather was really wet and the machine had pretty worn out grousers as they were down to the bolt tops. I almost got stuck in the muck 4 times, with the belly pan scraping. I would have been in a real issue had I got that stuck where I was going. On pushing stumps, the machine would not really uproot the old oak stumps I had laying around. Instead I found the best method was to dig around them, then curl them out with the bucket. Some of the root balls were HUGE and were bigger than the bucket. Underneath those old stumps was about a 5 foot deep hole, that I had to then fill in with other dirt dug up from another location. Underneath these stumps seamed to have the softest and wettest ground where I almost got stuck. Funny thing about my land, some of the slopes on the hills look like they have gravel thrown on them, while other areas on top of the hills turned into swampland, while in the bottom it was pretty stable soill. I don't understand dirt to weel. Seamed backwards to me. The rain didn't help out either. I believe we have recieved around 2 inches in the last week.. The machine worked great and I would have loved to keep it. The 963B is an awesome machine. It eats around 5 gallons an hour of fuel!!
couple of comments, unless your in a spot with no bottom at all you can usually use your bucket curl to back your way out of being stuck....963s breakout force (Curling) would be its main advantage over a 953.......im glad it worked good for you
Posting Photos Fred, ATCOEQUIP has an excellent guide in regards to posting pictures. Notice the maximum size of the photo. Here is a link to a FREE picture resizer. It is super easy to use. http://bluefive.pair.com/pixresizer.htm
Thanks for the update Fred. Glad it worked well for you too. Also glad you didn't get it stuck!
Here is the machine!
More on what I did.
BTW it was plenty wet. The grousers were not too tall either.
Fred: personally I'm glad you did at least try out the track loader, I agree you would have had a better experience if your grousers were taller. dozer pads with a 20 inch width will make all the difference in the world as far as pushing and getting out of soft spots. A little hint......next time you roll the oak stumps out.......cut the roots on the either side first with the bucket, then dig down in front of the stump, cutting the roots as you go in, then curl the bucket back as it slides under the stump. You will be amazed at the ability of the breakout force that you can apply to the stump, without putting undue force on the loader or loader arms. I'm not going to knock the Ex. but realisticly speaking, the track loader is more versatile for farm use, and even though it may be slower at doing some things , all in all it is just like an overgrown skid loader, once ya got one you wonder how you ever got along without it.