I am new to the forum, so hello all! I am looking for a used grader in the $25,000 price range. Even this is a stretch right now, but I have a customer that wants me to sign a maintenance contract on 7 miles of gravel road for a year. I have been looking at JD 770s in the late 70s, early 80s model year. Is there anything I need to be aware of with these machines? Is te 600 series any better? Cats seem to be too expensive and I like the JD controls better. Any other brands I should look at? Thanks for your help, Steve
Just talked to the local Deere service rep he said try for a b series, or go down to a 570? Do you guys think a 570 would be enough to get the washboards out? (within a reasonable amount of time)
Where in Wyoming are you located at, I know a guy who is toying with getting rid of his blade...
I would look at a Cat 12 E or F series. Granted, they are not hydraulic but they are an excellent machine and parts are available.
Casper area
Greg: I agree with you that the old 12's were great machines.....and I only ran one once but i still remember the pain. you cant just ease the controls!!!
Diamond L Trucking What make of machine?
It's a CAT 12, I want to say a late 70's or 80's G model. I can get some information for you on it if you'd like.
personally I'd like to get the machine, but we're not quite into road building/maintaining, and iron just sitting around isn't the best for the checkbook
JD 570 is a nice machine. I had a 570A once & it was a nice grader to work with.
I would look at a 12F. We had one for many years and it was a great machine! It was very reliable. The only reason we got rid of it was it was getting worn out a little sloppy and to upgrade to a 140G. You can put a lot of hours on those machines without problems.
th deere's were solid machines but I'd also look at a little newer (lat 80's early 90s) dresser for about the same price. We've had good luck with the dressers and guys seem to like them.
Andoman, I have been looking at them also. dresser and gallon is the same right? Also kamatsu?
Thanks Hey thanks for the great input and keep it coming if you would. For those of you who are suggesting Caterpillars I find that they are twice as much for the same year and size class. Are they really that much better? I have to stay within my budget which puts me in the 20-year old range. For those of you who have run 570s, are they heavy enough to cut out washboards in recycled base? Anybody have any input on 670Bs Deere? Steve
Diamond L Trucking you guys are in the cody area? do you know what he wants for the 12g?
fiat allis is also very good, try and get a powershift and it will make it much easier
one of the problems with the A series was the electric over hydraulic controls. nice when they work but expensive to replace when they go bad
Nick... Fiat....really. We used to have a old farm tractor that was a fiat. Not the best one we had and impossible to get parts for in our area...but a grader might be different and with the internet parts are only a clik away. Biggrader...The shop forman I talked to said the same thing...stay away from the 670, 770 A models, he said the 570 never used the electric controls. my customer is trying to get me another subdivision so now I am looking at 15 miles of road 3 or 4 times a year. I am thinking bigger might be better???
personally, I think a 570 is too small. How wide a road will u be working on? Have many hrs on a 770bh. good machine,imo:my2c
The darn thing is almost 30 feet wide
yep same thing different stickers.
If you go with deere go for the BH series and newer I Have A 1986 770BH with blade ext and brand new paint and heater and cab. It has 20,000 frame hrs on her tho but i still use it quite often for little stuff. with a weight on the front you get good pennitration for their sise and always have enough jam. Let me know if you want picks and work orders i belive it has 4000hrs on new engine and trans chains are being done now
What kind of numbers are you looking at in your contract? Just going to throw this out there....... 15 miles of road x 4 times per year = 60 miles total. Assuming you can do it with one pass cutting and one pass spreading and if they're decent roads you should be able to get 1.5-2 miles done per hour ( really general numbers I have some roads I get 1.5 MPH on and some I can get 2.5-3 mph done on) Lets be conservative and say 60 miles @ 1.5 miles per hour, your looking at 40 hours of grading + road time I have no idea what you can get paid per hour or per mile in your location or what the possibility of picking up more work in your area with the machine would be, but when I read the numbers involved 2 things crossed my mind A) I'd be looking for an older cat 12E or F in the 10-13K dollar range or B) Grading in other areas is far more lucrative than grading around here. I know what you mean about knuckle busters, not sure if the controls are the same on the 12E's and F's but I have a Cat 120 S/N 60H (Same as the 12's I'm told) and the controls on it have some type of hydraulic assist, very minimal kickback in comparison to the older ones in my opinion. If they do kick back its because you have alot of force exherted on the lever and somthings got more pressure on it than it should have. Anyway there are some distinct advantages to them and for the ammount of grading your talking about I wouldn't be afraid of one. I have a contract for 67 miles of road 5-6 times per year that I'm doing with mine, I'll guarantee its not as nice to run as the Deers and G models your looking at but I spent alot of 12 hour days in mine and its not horrible. I've noticed some mid 80's champions in that less than 20k Price range, 720A's to be more specific, anyone have anything to say about them? I was getting the impression those are a good machine as well, might be one more thing to look at.
Deeretime; thanks for the reply...really dont need pics unless your selling? Thanks for the feedback on deere machine's. We are in a rural area....maybe not as rural as yours,but still remote. the thing is we have a deere dealer and a cat dealer...so parts for any other brand is three to four days away fed ex express. Shop time is more because no one has ever seen anything else. as I said earlier cat machines seem out of my price range. I am buying this so I can keep making money and therefor feed my family. I had to rent twice last summer at 700 a day, Machine only, and that adds up fast! Next summer I hope to expand. So a reliable machine at a reasonable price is my goal.
SiLveroddo: You nailed it...with the info I gave you..I own a small excavation company and have had to rent in the past.....I Hate renting. Now I have the opportuity to pick up these contracts. After it is said and done the contracts would pay for the machine for the year and fuel used on the contract. No profit....but anything else that came up I would not have to rent. If I can find a cat machine i need to try it out. the only pre hydro model I ran had a pony motor. then in the army it was 140g's....good machines but still to expensive for me at this point. My uncle says "the only company that even makes a real blade is cat". I respect that....but my budget?
A note about the roads I am looking at. Recycled asphalt base on top of 2 to 6 inches of j base. 30 foot wide shoulder to shoulder with 15 foot wide bar ditches in areas.....sandy ......blow sand .....clay on a few high spots but mostly sand. Very poor maintance last 5 years not one of the previous "grader hands" touched the ditches.....now they are filled with sand. Washboards so bad my laser broke riding in the job trailer. Washboards are 4 inches deep in some areas. I am leary to list what I quoted them befor I get the contract signed.... but if you guys would let me know what you think is fair per mile for rebuild then for maitance i would be thankfull
Ok just checked prices on machinery trader...12 f cats 17500 to 32000 same range as deere machines 20 years newer and with who knows how many tens of thousands of hours on them. I don't know if I can justify the age differance?
We had one to do a few jobs then sold it. Was a excellent machine, nothing went wrong, if there is a problem most can be fabed anyway. if its soemthing to do with the engine/tranny i am sure you could find parts somewhere. Nick
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/bfs/2097151280.html http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/for/2078059424.html Prices on Machinery trader seem pretty high to me, I do look at it but I've been watching auctions and craigs list more, its buyer beware no matter what your looking at though. No way I'd pay more than 14 or 15 grand for one of those old cats, and I'd only pay that much if the drive train had been overhauled. Alot of people just don't realize what their stuff is really worth. Is there much/any road time involved with what your bidding? The bids I've seen per mile on forestry roads have been ranging anywhere from 39 to 60 per mile, no parking lots or culdesacks. The 39 per mile had some road time the 60 per mile obviously has alot more road time. Depending on how bid happy your client is, I would try to do the repairs hourly, and the maintenance by the mile. In the real world its not your deal that they let it go so far, if you can work out a fair houlry deal to get it in shape, then a per mile bid to keep it that way I would try to do that. (thats how my contract is written, $80.00/hr for additional work) these numbers might be on the low end due to there being an abundance of guys like me with old graders around.
I'm thinkin theres some deals to be had at the moment, I saw 2 of those champions I mentioned go reasonably (in my eyes) at a municiple auction 15-18k with 8-9k hours in good condition. There was one more on another auction that I didn't go to and someone ended up getting it for 11500.00, kinda kicking myself for missing that one. Some of the best buys on equipment I've found were at auction in November and December. Might not be viable for you but just throwing it out there
I've got a Cat 12 E, got it for $5,000 4years ago. Had to add some tires and things, but I guess I got a smokin' deal.
Thats honestly what they should go for in my eyes, but hard to find one with much life left in it for that.
I agree with Allterra, all of my other equipment is Cat, And I have been looking for a grader but I cant touch a Cat for my budget. And I am glad to see this thread because I am going to look at 670 deere this next week. I live in a somewhat remote area and for that reason I want to stick with brand name. Parts may not be that hard to find but for some of the other brands they are expensive to afford. Good thread though
90% of the old machines around here are Champion. Mid 80's municipal equipment goes 10 to 15 thousand... I run an OLD champion that would more than do what you want, but you probably don't want an antique. I only use it about 100 hours a year, so don't see the point in spending big bucks. My 1960 562 Champion will do everything the newer ones at work do (other than articulate), and I haven't been stuck trying to fix ANYTHING. It's all mechanical and any idiot (me) can fix it. Cummins parts are available a LOT of places, and so are DD if thats what you choose to buy. A job like you're talking about I would only quote by the hour, tell the customer what you think it needs and what you think it will cost, leave some wiggle room and tell him you'll quit when he's happy or wants to stop spending.
ya Greg i am also agree with allterra. this machine is quit hard to handle. you should replace your machine with some newer one.
Thanks for all the posts....now I am looking at a 730 champion mid 90's anybody familar with this model? problems? what to look for on a used one? I will have to buy soon or ...... rent :Banghead(yeck)
I have a 12F and put hydraulic cylinders on the blade lift. it works like a G. I run this grader hard every summer and have very little problems with it.
At this point I am looking at everything.......I would like one I can work on myself hence the change to looking at older champions. I would rather spend 10 thousand more up front than hav to put 10 into the machine in the first year. I dont want the problems that one of the other guys in the forum is having with his fiat.
Thanks for the advice 562C.....and your right I would be scared of a machine 10 years oler than me ......but I bet the old girl does a good job.
Silveroddo...I must have not read this post fully when I looked at it when it was posted...two months ago. I did give them a by the mile bid but didn't think of the by the hour for repairs and additional work idea. The repairs are going to eat my lunch, and dinner and likely next days breakfast also....... But I would like to get in with this subdivision...so I am taking a chance on getting basement excavations and sepic systems if I do the roads. I pray I will pick up some more work for the machine because you are right with what I have now this is not a viable idea....and I am signing the loan papers tomarrow.
Good luck with it, theres alot to be said for getting into that development. You'll get it figured out, you have to pay to play but fortunately its not rocket science. Keep some good records while your working, I have grading sheets that list the road, length, time I start, time I finish, and travel time to and from, the date, and comments on condition. Plug it all into a spreadsheet and it will help you with your biding on future work.
We currently have a 1981 CAT 12G for $23990 Ms ripper, 16870 hrs, excellent working condition, this might be around your price range. Let me know
It's older than I am too. Probably about 20,000 hours on it, the moldboard has a patch 10 feet long and 8" high that we put in where it was worn through/thin. I only paid 1800 bucks for it about 15 years ago. One major repair in that time, broke an axle where it comes out of the rear end housing, New axle and re-bearinged the centre section... Does what I need it to do... If you found the RIGHT antique it would do what you want, but they're usually pretty beat up.
Silveroddo. Thanks for the advice. I flew to kentucky to look at a machine...waste of time and money. The grader was worn out. 4 to 6 inches of slack in the circle and lift assembly. I have no idea how many thousands it would cost to rebuild. So now I am looking at spending 40 to 50 k for a machine.
562C..... It's not just the antiques that are pretty beat up. The machine I look that was in 1997 and I couldn't believe how bad a shape it was in. I hope that's not a sign that the champions aren't built to last. The machine only had around 7000 hours according to the meter. I lost the bid on old 570 last weekend the machine had 2500 hours it was a mid-80s model is sold for 30,000+ I couldn't believe it.
JW 8080 I was hoping to stay a little closer to home when buying a machine although the price does look right. I don't have a passport yet so I would be able to come up and look at it until I get one. After the last one I looked at I'm definitely not buying until I can lay my hands on the machine.
You're gonna have maintenance expense with any used machine. I would look at the $10K range and plan on putting $7-$10K into it. Then you know what you have. I have a tendency to "marry" my equipment. I buy cheap and put a bundle into it to set it up like I want it. I always get backwards (more into the machine than I can sell it for) into equipment and never end up selling anything because of it. If you buy equip, use it for 5 years and then sell, DON'T take my advice. When I buy equipment it is 'til death do us part - my death! Good luck with your search. In a week or 2, I am going to Arkansas to pick up my blade (1969 Austin-Western Super 300). I have a 38' dropdeck/beavertail if ya need something hauled.
Brandt what part Wyoming you live in? If I buy one of these monsters I may need it hauled if I get a job out of town. The blade I was just looking at was in the $40,000 range and would've took at least $10,000 to get it right again. Probably more, all the hoses were shot. Good luck with your blade I hope that works out better for you than it has for me so far. The problem with buying a $10,000 blade is that I'm going to try to make a living off of this machine. I'm hoping to do at least 1000 hours a year.
I am in Park County. 40 miles N of Cody and 5 miles S of the MT line.
Nice country......I ran excavator for M&K on a road project out past buffalo bill resovoir one summer many moons ago.
Where are you??
casper
I hope to be coming down that way in a week or 2 to get a dolly and a smooth drum compactor. Both old and antique - but cheap!! I'll dump $$ into them and "marry" them too!
How far south are you going???.....I might need a blade hauled back from the denver area.
The dolly and compactor are in Casper. I wasn't planning on going south but I might be able to work it out. I have a drop deck with a beavertail. The lower deck is 28' and the upper is 10'. If you are longer than 28' I can put some of it on the beavertail. I am 8' wide and 42" off of the ground.
Dang, come on down to Texas and get out of that cold while you're coming. I need a D8 winch moved to Canada, but Wyoming would be a heckuva good start.
Any machine will be junk with the wrong guys running it.... I have been using a 1992 720AVHP series 3 champion all winter, up until about 5 years ago I was the only operator of this machine. Currently has about 15,000 hours on it. Still don't hesitate to go out and work day in and day out with the machine. No such thing as too much grease... IF I was shopping though, I'd be tempted to stay away from the 8.3 cummins. We've had a few problems with it. Head gaskets mostly. Also changed teh thrust bearings a while ago, bad design. Too much end play on the crank, thrust bearing only goes 1/2 way, not all teh way around.
Still looking for a machine...I had to rent/demo a machine...and i will post some photos so you guys can tell me what I am doing wrong...I can take it.
here are the photos Repairing washouts in the barditch
What do you all think about this?? the owner calls it a gravel recovery scoop.
My guys could really butcher the cab with that bad boy.
Round here we call them a snow gate or a paving gate. a lot of cities will use them for streets. put the gate down so they dont fill the driveways. When they are past the driveway they lift them up and unload the blade. They work good but just one more thing to watch out for. Makes for a busy operator. How did you like the Case. I dont see many around here. The only thing I know about them is that one contractor had one and used it for snow removal. He had a ton of electrical issues and Case ended up buying the machine back
Saw a couple blades settin in the oil field supply outfit in Edgerton today. Not sure if they sell equipment or not but the baldes had a 'for sale look' about them. I think one was a deere and one was a champion, that was a few hours and many miles ago that I went by there.
I put over 20 hours on the case grader in two days, things I liked about the machine were: the machine had good power, fast road speed I averaged 28 mi./h, great fuel usage around 4 gallons per hour, plenty of cutting ability, moldboard seemed to be able to carry more material. Things I didn't like: loud hydraulics, not as comfortable as I expected (I hate these low-profile cabs, I like to be able to stretch my legs) did I mention loud hydraulics? I didn't like the front articulationbut it was easier to tell when you were straight. You know the hydraulics seemed to be kind of loud.
Huh. I wonder?? anyway does it seem like the oilfield is getting ready to take off again to you??
This machine has had two operators only in its lifetime. somehow neither one of them has hit the cab. Although it does have new tires on front so I suspect, well you get the picture
Yep, I can imagine.
I've heard talk of a field they're doing some type of new fracking or something like from Greenley CO clear to Lusk, maybe up north to Wright. I read about it in the Star Trib a few months ago, and have heard rumblings. I had been around the state quite a bit the last month or so and had seen quite a few rigs up in that area. Maybe some roads for you to get in on?
Yep I've heard the same thing from a few different sources. I am interested in the oilfield work but I am unsure about how to get started out there. Then will I have to put all my other customers on hold because I'm so busy in the oilfield? I know the money is better in the oilfield so if I get a chance I'll go.
Thanks everyone Well I finally bought a blade. A 1992 670B with less than 3000 hours. I would like to thank everyone for all their input over the last few months. This forum was a valuable resource and I will try to continue to contribute to the forum. In the end my choice of blades came down to what I could find that was in good shape that I could afford. Brand didn't play a big part except for the fact that caterpillars were so expensive. Once again thanks everyone for your input.
Deere makes a good,dependable machine. The 'B's are a simple machine to work on without a lot of electronics. It should last you for a good long time if it only has 3000 hrs. enjoy your seat time and keep the rubber on the road.
Thanks...as to seat time I hope it is more comfortable than that new Case 865
Looks pretty tidy, even if the hours are wrong it still looks good.
Yeah I am woundering about the hours due to the meter is mounted on a black mount plate. I think it should be yellow
Maybe it was repowered along w/ a new hour meter. My 570A underwent a dealer repower in 1992 and got a new hour meter on a black plate too.
Maybe......the rest of the machine shows very little wear....yours was repowered in 92. Mine was manufactured In 1992 maybe the hour meters were just that color in that year??
Well?? So how do you like the machine? I'm also looking at a Deere 670B. Can I be so bold as to ask how much you paid for it?
ohhh the pain! My wife does not appreciate my pain. So I will come share with you guys. Take a look at these pictures and let me know what you think. Right on top of the valves!!! Of all places!
Okay. I know you guys think are thinking what a idiot. Let me explain my reasoning for spending that much on this old machine. Number one the overall machine exhibits very little wear. I can't find anywhere where there aren't at least three shims left of adjustment. The machine has a rear ripper and a front push block between these two adds over 4000 pounds to the machine. For her size she's heavy and should be able to cut easily. She has an upgraded hydraulic pump from the factory. Air-conditioning along with the pressurized cab. I had the transmission and engine oil tested both turned out good after being in the machine over 14 years. The seat doesn't even show any wear. she starts right up doesn't smoke a bit no blow by whatsoever. The bad..... stinking nests everywhere ...on top of valves. in the air-conditioning. on top the transmission. all over. Oddly enough all these nests hasn't seemed to harm the hoses at all. Prior owner informed me that the machine was inside the first 10 years of its life. They all look good. Did I spend too much???
don't know yet haven't got to use it yet. around 44k and going up every day. 600 + for fluid change...not counting the tandems
We get mouse nests and bird nests in our windmachines every summer. Just got to clean them out and get them all. Mice also like to go up the exhaust on them. Just got to be diligent and get them out.
I ended up using one of these on a shouldering project last fall, the concept is pretty good for somthing like that, but for practical purposes I havent found an application there I'd ever see the need for one. This one in particular seemed to be a little to big and cluncky.
Showed it to an old boy. . . . . . He just looked at me like I was in need of a brain transplant . . . .then said " you put it down when your plowing snow when you pass driveway so you dont wind row their drive or have to go back and clean it" so I guess thats what I was told??
This one got sold to the agency for shouldering I believe, no one seemed to know anything about it and it was only the 2nd time it had been mounted on the machine. I figured it would make life easier when spreading gravel that didnt get layed out consistently. Seemed like a good idea on paper but I'm sure there are easier and faster ways as this thing probably was in the way more than it increased prductivity.