Hi, I am not a concrete/foundation expert or worker, but I joined this forum in the hope that you all could please help me with an issue. My husband and I are building, and our excavator over dug the basement by 10 ft into what was supposed to be the garage. He dug the basement as a rectangle when really the garage protrudes 10 ft by 20 ft into one corner of the house. I am looking for a second opinion/suggestions on how to fill this void to support the weight of the garage, cars, etc. properly. Plan was to put a 10 inch thick concrete basement wall where the excavator dug (to complete the rectangle he thought the basement was), but also put one where he was supposed to have dug (ten ft inside that rectangle), then connect the ends to make a small rectangle and fill this huge void with rock. However, this will be a lot of rock, AND I don't trust that this will be enough support. Should it be more like an "H?" Any suggestions, advice, help are greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.
One way is to build a concrete floor in the same manner as a bridge deck complete with supporting beams and leave the void there or if it's deep enough then call it a seller.
Completely unnecessary. Just backfill it with subsoil and compact it the same way the rest of the foundation walls are backfilled. It happens all the time. Isn't there at least a few feet overdug around the whole house for the masons?
If you do it the way Delmer describes you will be OK. But if it were my house I would have a 4 inch brick ledge on that wall to support the garage slab. Have the slab re bared. I would not trust wire in your situation. Another thing I would suggest is to dry stack 4 inch concrete blocks up from the foundation footing to support any steps of patio slabs that will be poured. I have seen endless steps, porches and patios that settle over time because the fill material settled.
Well stated by Delmer. With this "solution" being customary and obvious, makes me wonder what is going on 'behind this question on this post'. Maybe some pictures or other commentary may bring some other information.
were it my house, i'd require that whoever backfills takes density tests on the backfill
I'd have an engineer do a plan for the walls and garage floor, self supporting or with columns if needed as Tones suggested, use that basement enclosure as my safe room, gun storage, prepper's paradise/man cave. Maybe add an external entrance under the garden shed. The contractor should cover the better part of it if it was a contractor.
"Behind the question" is right. We did not hire a general contractor, rather attempting to do this ourselves, and so far it has been a disaster. Our foundation guy was recommended to us by a friend who does flatwork only, so he was going to do that and this other guy was going to do the foundation. Our hole was dug 62 days ago at this point and all that is complete is the footings. We ran into rain and rain and so more rain. So much rain. We had a pump going out there constantly and he finally decided it must be ground water from a high water table. He had to purchase rock and use a plate compactor to tamp it down, it was still a sloppy mess, so then he used cement and mixed it in with the mud to get a more solid base. Finally, he poured the footing extra thick and wide. I understand the extra costs and extra time/labor that was put into that, but at this point, the footing has been poured for 19 days and still no walls. He finally got the forms out the yesterday for the walls and started to put them up last night. After working last night and all day today, he only got forms up for 1/3 of the basement approximately. We were stupid and paid him 50% upfront ($15,600). When we waited nearly two weeks after the footing a were done and couldn't hardly get him on the phone, he wasn't out there at all, he finally admitted that he didn't have enough money to pay his workers nor to rent the forms for the walls, so he had been finishing up another job to get money for our job. On his bid sheet, the footing were estimated at $4035 L/m. We of course flipped out. I understand there were extra costs involved, but so much so that he spent the $15,600? We requested a site audit to go over money, he still has not done that, it has now been another week almost and he finally got forms delivered and is working on putting them up. My husband and I have made some mistakes with never having done this and trying to be our own general contractors, but this guy is just one excuse after another. He shows up at noon, works 20 mins, says he has to run to Lowes, comes back 2 1/2 hours later, stays another 10 then calls it a day. We are to the point that we are meeting with a lawyer on Monday to see what options we have from breaking away from him and having someone else complete the job because we are at risk of losing our builder (because he's been waiting two months to start) and running out of time on our construction loan if he continues at this pace. Not to mention that I now do not trust him at all. The friend that recommended him by the way had a falling out with him right after we started with him and said he started seeing red flags. I like the idea someone mentioned about the safe room, we considered that but I think it would cost more and we are already over budget because of the ground water. My intent in asking in here was really just to see what the fix for the void is, easy and common, or not, because I just don't trust the integrity of our house in this guys hands anymore. He seemed wishy washy about how to fix it and I just want to make sure it is done correctly. I don't have a great picture of the void. These are the only ones I have now, but I'll try to take one tomorrow.
Quite an unfortunate situation in many ways. He most likely used your money to pay the bills on previous jobs. I have seen it more than once. After seeing your photos and the mud situation I would backfill that garage area with crushed stone and be done with it. There is no sadder sight than concrete slabs and steps that have settled from improper back-filling. That over-dig isn't as horrible as I first thought from your original post. Keep in mind there would have been a two foot over dig anyway to allow the workers to have enough room to do the forming and perimeter tiling in that area.
The void is the least of the issues you have to deal with. The biggest you mentioned is the water, be sure the drains are done right and drain to daylight if at all possible. I know you're in a rush to get things done, but a water problem is the last thing you want to deal with after the fact. And this guy doing the concrete walls isn't going to go the extra mile to insure all the details are done perfectly. You're the contractor and owner, you need to be sure it's done right. Of course you may never have water issues, with the site all dug up and lots of rain, there's no way it's not going to turn into a puddle. When it's all done it may stay dry with no drains at all, can't tell from here.
Thanks for the update and the photos. Sorry to learn about the situation, hope you get some better weather and this phase is completed soon. Is the construction loan 9 months? * Was wondering if the "surface water / shallow ground water" are a big contributor to the jobsite challenge, and if so, do you happen to know what type of basement waterproofing system is to be installed? Looks like the site is fairly flat and a daylighted french drain system won't be possible. Another reason for me asking is we have noticed differences in behavior of undisturbed clay soils compared to recompacted (ie disturbed) clay soils when subsequent water is involved. Not sure if the soil is clay in your area - perhaps this may be the reason you inquired about the rock backfill (or inert backfill)? * When Soils Engineering is involved, the clay materials are tested for expansive index and as such are typically stipulated for removal and replaced by inert materials. Inert meaning not expansive or low expansive. Soils engineers want the soil moisture carefully controlled and the compaction done with a regimented manner as well as density in percent as measured by 'the curve'. In our area if the property owner decides there is no budget money for "excavate, remove, and replace", then the clay is carefully cut so as to not over dig and be involved with recompacting of clays and or expansive clays.
Does your builder have a concrete sub? I suggest that you get out of the GC game right away.
Welcome to my world as a general, this stuff happens every day and generally, unless its an existing soil bearing capacity problem ie: previously disturbed soil or unsuitable soil conditions its on the general to deal with, and that's in every contract I write under exclusions - • Any remedial work required to correct grade, or soil bearing capacity problems - which in this situation is you anyways. The small over dig is just that a small problem if I was looking after it there would have been a four foot over dig anyways you can do one of three things, back fill with excavated native soil and compact in 8 inch lifts and it will likely be ok just don't pour the garage floor till the fall make sure it gets lots of water to settle out the air - import 2 inch pit run or breaker, compact in 8 inch lifts and have a soil eng. do compaction test every two feet - or use clear stone and compact in 12 inch lifts ( many will say clear stone does not need compaction but compacting tightens it up and makes a better job IMHO). As for the concrete guy that's a bad mistake you have made and will have to live with, the legal route is not really practical so you just need to keep on him and make sure it gets done and done properly , a phone call to your building inspector for a pre pouring inspection might be an idea even if you have to pay for the extra inspection it should offer you some peace of mind. any good concrete guys with a couple helpers should have that wall poured by three o-clock the first day unless there is a lot more to it than we see in the pictures. I wish you the best of luck, it is a brave thing you are doing. I've been at this for thirty years and I still need my wife to sing soft Kitty to me some nights. If you don't get the kitty reference I am sure some-one will be good enough to fill you in.:drinkup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuZzDDHDRqM
Thanks I needed that now I'm in my happy place
Do you know if he has paid for the concrete used in the footings yet. I would not be surprised if you end up with a lien on your house from the redi mix plant and possibly for form rental also. If that happens you will have a dickens of a time rolling over the construction loan into a mortage. It is companies like this that has caused laws to be passed in many states making it illegal to charge for services before they are performed. In many areas only material can be prepaid after it is verified to be on site. If he is that short on funds you are not going to get a quality job. Have your building inspector check your reinforcing before he pours the walls. You don't need cracking from not enough reinforcing. I have a feeling your losses will only grow with this guy. He may be the nicest hardest working guy in the world, But he is not helping you. I would be concerned about water coming into the basement later. I would get a professional opinion on how to deal with it from somebody not under contract. Good Luck and keep us posted.
Building code here says fill any overdig with concrete under foundations. If this is impractical you should consult an engineer. I see crushed stone, placed, compacted and built upon often, especially in industrial construction. If this guy is that broke you need to find a new contractor who has the money and resources to do the job right.
I feel bad for you....but I don't. As a GC I would say we are the most underpaid, under appreciated of all the people on the job and when sh*t hits the fan its our reputation on the line. I would say you need to find a reputable builder, take your loss on the concrete as a lesson and let the house be built by some professionals. Just think that 15,600 you wasted was probably 25% of what your GC might have cost you and your not even out of the ground yet!
Around here it is pretty much common to fill the cavity under the garage with sand, The walls inside the garage should have a ledge poured on them to support the weight of the slab on the edges. Most basement walls that divide the garage and the basement are be 12" thick, 8" thick walls around everything else is common. I have yet to meet a homeowner that can GC a house very well, the knowledge just isn't there, many people do not know who the reputable subs are that many builders know. My advice would be to find a reputable house builder and see if they will take this mess over for you. I am in Illinois as well, and there are several new basements that have been sitting for a few weeks now because of the rain, not trying to defend this guy's mess, but we had record rainfall for June, you can cut a little slack on that.
Thanks for all your responses, suggestions, and help. The wall forms are finally up and concrete coming tomorrow. He also sent us the site audit we requested with all the overages listed. The footings and overages, we are at about $9600, fall forms $4200, so after the wall form labor and concrete/rebar etc, we will owe him a little bit more. When we paid him upfront he signed a lien waiver. He will also have to sign one to receive the check from us to put us at even, and then we will be parting ways. We have got someone from a very reputable company coming out to look into a fix for the void so we can be done with that as well. Someone asked about the drainage- we are doing drain tiles around the entire exterior, and also under the basement slab connecting to two sump pumps. Big Bang- one of my favorites! As a couple of you have said, leave the GCing to the professionals. I completely agree, did before, and still do now. We have had plenty of people tell us that and explain how hard it is and we are definitely feeling that. I greatly appreciate the amount of work you guys do. We are always willing to try something once!
Here is some more friendly advice. Pay for the materials directly to the company that delivers them. By pass paying the concrete wall guy and pay for the materials to the company that delivers them. Make them break up there bill, if they dont like it make them walk.. Subs dont like this because it allows you to figure their profit more closely... When he is expecting the other half make it out to the concrete company that brings the mud. I personally know people and I myself have had to pay twice for materials because the sub did not pay for them. I have been to court over it and I lost and got stuck. Druggies and pill heads will buy that stuff with your money. Also pay for your house building material package straight to the company that drops it off. Lean waivers only protect you from the sub not the material men... It sucks real bad to have a lien show up on your house 3 months later because a sub did not pay a bill. I had one concrete sub do this to me and 4 people we were building for. They all had to pay the bill again and pay a lien removal fee...
Splendid advice iron!
Depends on the language in the lien waiver. The one's we have to sign for commercial jobs states we've paid all labor, taxes, rental and materials through the date of the pay period for everything on the job. The sub has to attest to it and have it notarized. Not fool proof but gives the owner another layer of protection.
As a sub and general (I'm licensed as and work as both) I don't mind one bit if a property owner or general wants to pay for material directly from the supplier. Especially a big ticket simple item like concrete. But I wouldn't be excited to have that dropped on me mid project if thats not what we had agreed on. One thing that irritates me to no end is people that don't do what they say they are going to do. I agree with what others have said about cutting your losses and hiring a competent general. It may not seem like it now, but a good general may even save you money in the long run.
Google leaning tower of Piza foundation or YouTube it? Okay never mind......off topic
As to the lien waiver from the sub....my understanding is if the sub promises in the waiver he paid for the lumber (but actualy did not), the unpaid lumber company having provided their 'noticing' will be able to file on their behalf regardless of any promise(s) by the sub, gc, cm, etc etc. Comments here are off topic, sorry to the orig poster....I watch the deliveries and conduct ongoing calls and determinations (basically polite snooping or inquiries) to assure all materials are being paid as the funding rolls through the process.
How about an update. We would be interested to hear how things turned out. Photos are cool also. Thanks, Roger