I have a 1963 Trojan 124 that came with the IH UD264 gas engine which is shot. This loader came from the factory with the gas 264, IH diesel 282, or Detroit 3-53. I'd like to convert the machine to diesel and bought an IH 282 diesel motor (actually the whole tractor it was in needing transmission work) but I am discovering that I need too many parts which are hard to find individually to use the 282 so I started down the Detroit path. I have a 3-53 with the SAE 3 bellhousing which should work, but I need a different flywheel for it. Does anyone have a flywheel that will work or know the part number for it? If not, if someone has a chart with the dimensions of all of the possible 53 series Detroit flywheels I can probably figure it out from that.
I have worked on pretty much all the 3-53 configurations but don't have a parts book for one. Some flywheels have multiple holes for either a fibre ring gear or clutch plate bolting surface. These engines were made right hand and left hand turning. The front of the camshaft usually has a marking like RA, RB, RC, RD. Sometimes you have to scrape of the paint on the very end of the shaft to find the stamping. The front of my overhaul manual shows the different configurations. Post a picture and maybe someone can help. They also come with different governors and you might need to change the style to suit what you want to do. Simon C
Thanks Simon. I am aware of the multiple rotation options and believe I'm good in that regard. I've seen the different flywheel options you speak of online, and will admit to having bought one already that doesn't fit (the seller measured but with a tape measure, not a caliper so it's not quite right). I was hoping I could narrow down a part number before buying another flywheel that might not fit.
Can tell you that there was every possible configuration of Detroit 3-53 sold, in the Thunder Bay Ontario Canada area at one time. I will check into one guy that I did lots of business with and who rebuilt 100's of them if he has lots of flywheels left. Maybe you can find some locally or elsewhere in the states, I don't know . Let me know if you think you need help. Simon C
Thanks Simon. I have a few leads here, but if you can introduce me to someone up north who at least might know the part number I need (or could help me narrow it down) that would help.
I like Detroits but your going to need a very good exhaust system on your rig. I repowered a loader that had a IH engine one time with a cummins the only thing i didnt do was the fly wheel but i do remember another guy redrilled and tap new holes in the cummins flywheel to bolt to the loaders torque converter. I did alot of fab work on the loader but i enjoyed it.
However you solve your flywheel issue be sure you have the correct end float on the crank after you bolt everything up. I missed this point after modifying the flywheel on a gas to diesel swap i was doing on a little Drott carydeck crane. It cost me the main bearings instantly when we fired it up.
Can't help with any numbers but seems like if you have the original engine that was in the machine you could make a drawing of that with measurements and compare to the Detroit you are hoping to install and determine any differences. Not sure if there are any old time machinists left around but if there are one could very likely modify the Detroit flywheel to work with the transmission in the machine the Detroit is going into. Maybe post a picture of each and someone can give you some ideas here? Like machine off the flywheel if it sticks back too much or make a spacer if it's recessed too much?
Thanks all. Turning a flywheel down on a lathe to fit had crossed my mind, but I would worry that it wouldn't have enough mass. What is the crankshaft end float? Is that the spacer that some of them have to keep the flywheel positioned correctly in the housing(and without it the lip on the flywheel would press into the rear main seal)? Or is this something else? Here's what I have for measurements:
End float would be front to back movement of the crank. a heel bar and a dial indicator on the front pulley will tell you. The book will give a spec. in thousands of an inch. I machined the flywheel and didnt check the end float after bolting the transmission up. Another lesson from hard knock school.
Thanks Tugger2. To make sure I completely understand, you're talking about the front to back movement of the crank being influenced by the new/different flywheel drivetrain combination pushing or pulling against the engine, right? I can see how that could cause a problem - the thrust bearings on the sides of the mains at the far ends of the block (or however it's set up on a given motor) would be designed for a specific amount of load and would fail if pushed outside of this envelope. OK, I think I get it. My Trojan loader drives the converter with a fiberous gear ring (hard to tell that it's fiber in the photo) but the "nose" that fits into the middle of the flywheel would need to not push one the crankshaft of the new engine, and I would check this by mating it up and slowly turning it over with the dial indicator riding the front crank pulley, as you describe. Do I have all of that right? Learn something new every day. Thanks again!
Well if you had the same measurements off the Detroit that would give some ideas as to what would be needed to be changed. As for that hole in the center for the nose of the converter that would have to be made in any flywheel of the replacement engine. That should be a slip fit to hold the weight of the converter off the fiber drive ring. If the replacement engine has a larger hole in the center than the original engine you make a bushing to bring it to the dimensions of the original engine flywheel.
Thanks kshansen. My hypothesis is that the good folks at Yale and Towne designed their loader using off the shelf parts: meaning that they did not make a custom flywheel for the GM/Detroit version of their product. I could be wrong here, but if I'm right it means that there's a factory flywheel that the fiber ring will bolt up to and that the converter snout will slide into which will make the whole setup work. If I'm wrong then we'll be spinning flywheels on the lathe, measuring crankshaft end runout and crossing fingers, but I think I'm right because a custom flywheel would have cost more money back in the day. I could also be wrong in that the GM version used a different converter, but I have the parts book for this machine and it only shows one converter for all three possible engines. I could measure the Detroit I have, but I know the flywheel that's on it won't fit because it's set up for something completely different. I'll attach a photo from the auction for the 3-53 I bought, it's completely different from what I need hence my assumption that I'll need a different flywheel to make this work:
Is the toothed drive ring anywhere close to fitting in the flywheel recess? I can’t tell. With some creative flywheel machining and a pilot hub on the crank and maybe an outer spacer ring for the SAE pattern something may be fabricated without too much trouble. Nothing that can’t be adapted with the use of a lathe and a milling machine
I think I found a flywheel! I posted over on newagtalk as well and someone there pointed me to Leid Diesel Service in Michigan. They have a huge inventory of 53, 71, and 92 series parts (as well as some 110 series!) and within minutes of giving my measurements they called back saying it seems like this application uses the flywheel commonly used in Clark skidders and they have a few so I bought one! I'll post here if it works and the part number if it's readable.
Just to be safe I would be making a measurement of the crank endplay on that 53 before installing it. Then check again after bolting it up to the Trojan's converter. I know I'd sleep better knowing the two measurements were the same before I started the engine! PS we need some pictures of this project! A few every day to show progress!
Thanks kshansen, I will definitely measure the crank end play with the new engine standalone and when it's installed before I run it. Thanks for the advice! Here are some more photos of the loader in action, project, and new engine.
Maybe check the flywheel housing concentricity before you install the flywheel to make sure its within spec. Its quite important in torque converter applications. Dial indicator mounted on the crank flange and touching out on the machined lip of the housing. Rotate the crank one revolution and observe. It should be minimal maybe .010” max TIR otherwise the housing may have to be recentred
Maybe check the flywheel housing concentricity before you install the flywheel to make sure its within spec. Its quite important in torque converter applications. Dial indicator mounted on the crank flange and touching out on the machined lip of the housing. Rotate the crank one revolution and observe. It should be minimal maybe .010” max TIR otherwise the housing may have to be recentred 56wrench , Today at 6:25 AM Report Have found some Detroit diesel engines with the engine oil pump jammed up when assembling the pump on the front of the block on a Series 53. Cause bent dowel pins caused by someone dropping the engine and the dowel pins were sheared 0.020". The back end at the flywheel could be the same. There is a couple thousands of clearance on rear dowel pins that could help if TIR on Flywheel is excessive as 56wrench has said. Always Check for crank end play as previously stated. Simon C
Rather than updating two forums, I'll link y'all to the one over on the International Harvester site where I originally posted about this project: https://www.redpowermagazine.com/fo...for-ih-bd-264/?do=findComment&comment=1729126 I am waiting on a pail for 40WT oil (Delo 100) and filters, then I will commence testing the engine and taking the measurements suggested here. Thank you all so much for your advice!
Wondering if the engine was left over from a military application? Quite the barn find!
It runs and is in the loader! I had to take the starter off to get it to fit, does anyone here know which of the gear reduction Chinese starters will fit? Ideally if the motor is offset toward one of the bolt holes instead of being equidistant between the bolt holes that will get me more clearance. I need to also relocate two huge flexible lines, one which is the return from the backhoe and the other is transmission oil to the cooler on the radiator if I'm ever going to be able to change filters on this thing!
PS - I think this starter will work, but the gear only has 10 teeth instead of the OEM's 12 https://www.ebay.com/itm/332255408480?hash=item4d5bf73160
PPS - Definitely not the 10 tooth eBay one, it looks like I either need a Delco 39MT or this thing, which appears to be re-clockable and custom made for Detroit swap applications: https://mascostartersandalternators.com/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=39
Some wider view pics. would help to see if hoses and such could be re-routed.
I couldn't upload a bunch of photos to this site so I uploaded them to the original thread on Red Power Magazine and also showed how I solved my clearance issues there: https://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/topic/145708-drop-in-replacement-for-ih-bd-264/page/2 I turned the engine over with a runout gauge on the crank pulley out of the machine and once it was installed, there is very little movement in either case so I guess it's good. Same with concentricity of the flywheel. The 39MT starter would fit if it were offset, but alas not quite. I will have to go with the expensive custom one linked above "MA-10882". Maybe Leid Diesel service carries them, I'll call in the morning.