Yair . . . there is an old thread on here about System one, last post 2007, so how is it shaping up? . . . I saw one reference to original components being assembled in a 'clean room' and thought, "Really? this is just a track". Cheers.
"Really? this is just a track'' D6r 4000hr no dry links no replaced components. seems like it might be alright.
Interesting to note that Cat have no plans whatsoever to introduce it on larger machines. Let's face it basically it's an oversized roller chain and roller chains work better when they're lubricated, and that's never going to happen on a track chain.
They are are actually now System One -Generation Two,upgraded twice since they came out. I'm not a fan rougher ride on dry hard ground.They don't like slopes or side wear, and the ride is choppy when going up and down slopes pushing up narrow base farm terraces. The track bushing are suppose to turn as they pass over the idle which is narrow and doesn't support the weight of the blade on the rails like the old rails.All the weight of the blade is running on the bushing and the idlers when the front of the machine is going up and down the baclslopes of the terrace.Making the ride choppy. They came out in 2006,as an option,but has become standard over time.If i knew what i do know i would have removed the extra scrapper and guards and went back to the old style heavy duty tracks.Which they now have a extra heavy duty track because of issue of system one tracks in this area. There are places they are doing fine supposly.Bushing wear not a big issue here because of clay and blackdirt,compared to the sandier soils other places.Hardly ever wear out the bushing here before dry pins and rail high take them.Never turn bushing here,just run them out.
D6R III has 6500 hours and is on its 3rd set of tracks. Cat warrantied the first 2 sets. First two sets were Sys1 gen 1. This set is Sys1 Gen 2. Machine spent most of its time on rent in Alberta, likely doing drill pad roads and the like. Not really sure, I wasn't there. Ken
For a biref period there was nothing other than System One available ex-factory on new machines. After howls of pain from customers and dealers alike Cat introduced a "heavy duty" track option which is a good old tried-and-tested SALT chain. I can see System One tracks going the way of the HEUI engine and the dodo ..........
Yair . . . Thanks Nige . This old dodo appreciates your real world insights . . . and yeah Heavy Metal I reckon 'clean room' technology may be okay for fuel system and hydraulics, but give us a break, not for tracks. Cheers.
I ran a D8T with it and it road rough. When backing up and turning felt as though tracks wanted to growl of front idlers, all four idles looked like a toothed wheel, around 3500 hours, already had links replaced, split behind bushings. Only one I've seen.
Rumor has it that the HD undercarriage will again be standard on new machines. System one will be an option. I have NOT had confirmation from a Cat rep. on this.
System-one had a rough introduction here and has never recovered from it, many machines have been converted and those not is usually still covered by some type of warranty or dealer promises of goodwill coverage. On a personal note as a has been mechanic I absolutely hate the stupid **** who dreamed up the CAT special tooling for pressing the links. I would like to show him what I'd put in that contraption and press.....:soapbox
I have converted around 30 D6N,R, and T models. The problem is I haven't found a way to convert any of the K models. If anyone has any insight on this it would be much appreciated. I just finished a complete undercarriage replacement on a D3K LGP and had to put system one back on it.:beatsme Thanks, QuickTrax
Are there no good news stories around for System ONE? CAT must have done at least some testing before jumping on this sinking ship? Ken
They didn't on the HEUI engine, the 992G monobox boom, the first ultra-light mining truck bodies, or the M-Series graders. What makes you think undercarriage should be exempt from the "development" process..?
The failure in the system occurs from the shock loads that happen when the track skips in reverse and in a bind. Need to make a dozer bulletproof not just wear resistant.
Do you mean the recoil system on SystemOne doesn't work right, because the symptom you're describing is exactly what it's supposed to stop from happening..?
When you back up with the tracks in a bind(like when you are stuck) the track will actually roll up out of the sprocket and than catch on the next tooth. Sounds like a machine gun going off. Sprocket is turning and track is slipping.(even with all parts in good repair) If they keep trying to get out bad things happen to track and final drive.
From all the other replies (including some of yours) it seems as though you're in a majority of one. Our dealer PSSR tried to encourage us to take 2 x D8T rentals with SystemOne. He got shown the door tout de suite and told not to let it hit him in the *** as he left.
System One seems okay on smaller machines in my experience. There were several options of roller and idler pattern, IMHO the narrow idler with serrations gives a damn awful ride, but the conventional shouldered idler rides like SALT. Anything bigger than a 6N, I wouldn't touch it, but on the smaller machines it survives. I've heard that on tracked loaders on landfill applications it outlasts SALT nearly 2 to1. To touch on Scrub's point, I expect cleanliness requirements for assembling S1 and SALT are pretty much the same.
Had three D9's on our plant site last summer(don't know series just high track), sounded like a scrap iron breaker when they backed up with all the hammering, I later found they had System 1 rails, the contractor has since swapped them for HD rails from Cat and under warranty. Operators complained of muscle and head aches after running these machines just a few days.
Yair . . . Thanks for all the responses. To further my education . . . what happens in the real world with SALT in the field with a couple of leaky bushes gone dry. From what I've heard it compromises the life of the chain, they will wear out fast but yet you need special gear to fix them. Can you still buy conventional dry track? I have asked before but could you use a SALT track machine for stoking fires? Cheers.
I put salt tracs on my d4 and didn't last 3000 hours. Like what scrub says a few links go dry and before you know it you got chewed out sprockets. The extra you pay for them IMO is not worth it.
A contractor running D8K,s with hydraulic boxs in the UK has recently got 9400 hrs out of genuine cat running gear , the chains are SALT too
Another thread is discussing frozen seals in a salt track, tearing out in frozen conditions, losing oil. Can that happen with the sys 1 tracks as well? Ken
Agree ....:drinkup
System one.....my experience around my area they call it system one because if you stick with the system you'll have a system one......two....three....get the idea seriously he has not held up in our area. I will say to my knowledge cat has stood behind it for the people I know....that's cat corporate not the dealership :deadhorse I think you'll find that will be something that you be at a coffee shop with some old friends talking...hey you remember that undercarriage....that ahh...oh yea system one :falldownlaugh
in my area (Northern England) the S1 hasn't gone down well with anybody I know.These are all on dozers that have a general use in lots of different types of conditions.The only one that I know of that works in the exact same environment (landfill rubbish) has proved troublesome with breaking links.Cat have provided new parts but not provided the labour or tooling to repair them (apparently).Another rumour was one well imformed owner reackoned Cat had to supply him with a complete new u/c and not just mismatch links.In the end they supplied a complete new normal u/c and he met them on the labour side.These are just well imformed rumours and not facts. I receantly saw a Komatsu D65 lgp with 7000 hrs on original system 1 u/c.It looked brand new to me at a brief glance and I have no reason to disbelieve what the operator told me. As for D8K's on 9000 hrs on same genuine Cat u/c,That's great life.I do believe that these D8's are mainly going forward pulling 463's.I myself have tried Cat,Berco,ITM,DCR and have had mixed results on D8's working on mixed duties in mixed conditions and are not near the 9000 hr mark.On D5H,D6H LGP tractors I have done more detailed studies and concluded that Cat was giving me 20/30% better life but were costing more than that to purchase at the time......so what do we do???The figures didn't quite stack up in favour of Cat.Berco seemed just as good and were cheaper.ITM and DCR aren't as good and are initially cheaper to buy,but I still don't know what the hell to buy for my D5H LGP that spends it's time solely in a silica sand quarry shaping big batters up?????After 25 years of tracking dozers I still haven't a clue........... P.S..I was told you can no longer get genuine Cat D8H/K u/c anymore.or Berco for that matter??
Can you still get the rotating pin and bush?? This maybe the answer in the silica quarry? I note that Cat didn't spec system one for the 2 D6N's on the arctic trek.They appear to be normal H/D.
They went with h/d as it was easier to part and refit if they'd lost a track, with S1 you need a dedicated press to separate the links. There was a bolted master link offered for S1 but I've only seen it on one machine. As I've said I'd have no qualms on anything 6N or smaller, but only on standard width shoes. The leverage from wide shoes kills S1 chains in short order.
System one is horrible. We had a D5K and got it new with double grousers for grading, the idler needs to be adjusted with shims to be higher than the rollers, this was never done when they swapped the grousers at the dealer. The thing bounced every time the idler hit a roller in the chain. Needless to say after a few months we got fed up and cat said we caused the problem. Our D6k with system one is not much better, it bounces, snaps, pops, shakes. I just got a D6k2 with SALT and it is SO much better.
PPR chains PPR track chains the only way 2 go 10,000 hrs and still not a dry link still on original rollers and idlers on third set of segments
Our latest-generation SALT chains with PPR are consistently giving us over 10k hours to scrap. We don't do pin & bush turns as we've found it's not worth it, so we run them to 125% wear first time round and call that it. The number of dry joints we've had you could count on less than one hand. Most if not all were on our first tractors and there was a Cat Service Program covering it. Lately I can't recall a single one. Our next move it to try the new single tooth master links.
A nice ride nice and quiet to PPR all the way and only 8 grand a side 4 d8 chains new I say again the only way to go
Yair . . . . Nige Could you elaborate on this mate . . . the first bolt together links I ever saw I think were Berco and they were solid with (as far as I remember) a big single tooth, then the Cat ones came through with a series of serrations rather than "teeth" and were much easier to separate . . . that would be about 1974 I reckon. Cheers.
Yes my previous employer is currently doing an experiment to test the throw away theory we sent one set of PPR chains away at 8,000 hrs for an over haul and let the sister machiene keep going only threw a set of segments at her ( segments every 4,000 hrs ) I will b interested to c how far the overhauled ones go the cost was 4,000 per side to overhaul it's way to soon to tell but when the results are clear I will post. At a guess I reckon the one we are letting run to destruction might make 15,000 hrs the set we sent of early I can't c em going another 8,000 hrs but time will tell hey Nigel care to take a guess. We keep our tracks out of slop, I don't wana change the subject or hijack the thread but my old boss and I are also running another test myth 2 outher dozers one with the roller between the drive and the front idler u know the one on top and one without both d8t. He reckons the one without will do 1,000 hrs more the theory is one less pivot point for the chains to roll over I've got a wager he is wrong I reckon the track slap will get the better of em and the one with the roller will come up trumps. Time will tell care to take a guess at that one.
Hey scrub ime back buy the way just off the plane I'll start a thread to keep u informed I've been pulling with a d6 and 65 komatsu got some pictures for u. Now this isn't what u asked and Nigel is obvisually more experienced in the matter but here is my 2 cents worth on master links. The alligator dezine master link is by far the best and way better than the old master pin on the old school dry track chain dezine if u know a few trade secrets. They are a married pair ( no mixing and matching ) the surfaces must b matched. They also must b clean I clean them with a flap disk on a 4 inch grinder alwase split at the rear idler over a block of wood release the cannon first. No come along or mini endless chain needed. The bolts are a torque to yield bolt and must b replaced every time u split the track once again clean is king and i mean spotless and follow the specks to the letter from memory the last d8 I did was something like 700 nm plus 60 degrees plus another 60 degrese if u don't get this right disaster will follow. The horror caused buy people not doin this properly is incredible believe me I've been there with a grinder flap disk grease and a straight edge trying to get them to marry up again simply because some moron threw em together dirty and reused the bolts dirt got between the link causing the them to come apart wear in a bad way and snapping bolts. Ive seen people use lock tight on bolts to try to stop this from happening and one bloke even welded the head of the bolt to the grouser ( I snoted that bloke in the mouth ) all because they can't work clean but ime only getting worked up now Nigel can explain the rest.
Scrub, Here's the new vs old master link. The new link requires a different master shoe with a bigger mud notch cutout in it because the links are beefier. The bolts have changed and so has the torque procedure. Like Cam says, there's no substitute for getting everything almost surgically clean and the tightening right on these links the first time or you will have them forever loosening.
Yair . . . Gotcha Cam85 and Nige . What I don't understand is the "new" single tooth link. As I mentioned both types were around in the early seventies. I seem to remember the single tooth was larger with more angular engaging faces. Good to see you back and waiting for those pictures Cam85 Cheers.
Yair . . . Okay, I had a look around and this is more like what I remember. http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US4365848-1.png The patent date on this one is 1982 but Cat. have patents on a single tooth link going back to 1961 so it seems the system was evolving. Interesting stuff Cheers.
Hey Nigel Hey Nigel as a field man when I've got track problems I simply roll em of and send em away usually but I have been told that mobile track presses exist have u seen one ore used one. I know it's a bit off topic but I would love to c one. Was hoping a man of ur knolige and talent might have some old picks and st hand experience with them. Regards Cameron
Cam, we do the same as you, roll one set off and another set on. They then go to the stealer who pulls the shoes and fits regrousered or new shoes with new hardware and at the same time relubricates all the pins (this is a good way of telling if you have any dodgy seals) and he also goes into the master links if necessary. We don't touch tracks other than to roll them on and off.
A portable track press was just sold yesterday over on the ACMOC site. One of your mates down under was trying to get it worked out to ship it to Australia but it ended up sold and going to CA before the details could get worked out. There is video of it working on the 4 sale thread. I ain't smart enough to post a link on my iPad.
I had someone try and weld the links themselves together. It looked like my 4yr old did it with his eyes closed and mig welder with no heat. The bolts were still tight so i couldnt figure out why they needed welding. One good whack on each side with a ball peen and they came apart then i cussed the next hour trying to grind and file them smooth again
1466, seems all to many consider the welding machine the best option to poor practices or ineffective work. I have been dealing with that for almost 40 years now.
You're not alone. I battle that syndrome here ...........
Yair . . . Wot, no comments about the "new" single tooth link? I thought it was interesting they have gone back to it after forty years. Cheers.
Hey OLD IRON thanks mate that's a nifty gadget. Don't fret SCRUB I will get those pictures up I been a bit busy. Yes the single tooth thing is interesting. Thanks for the input NIGE. Oh and It's good to hear I'm not the only one who has encountered the high intelligence level of the welder on the links. My latest yelling match was with a short term employer who thought i was stupid 4 stoping when the front idler farted and carked it in the pit he got on and drove at full noise until it snapped the pin broke the saddle bolts and chewed the major minor out. Makes the welder on the link seem a bit tame really.
Only gone to it on the big tractors (D10/D11) Scrub, from D9 downwards they still use the multiple-tooth jobbie ......... As my old Grandad used to say, "We're advancing backwards".
Yair . . . Gotcha Nige . I suppose on the big chains there is a bit more meat to work with. Cheers.
PHP: TBH on our current fleet I'm not so much worried about getting the fcukers apart, my current challenge is keeping them together long enough to wear out a set of grousers ............ The new master links are so much meatier than the former ones that the width of the mud notches (dimension E) in the shoe next to the master link have to be increased from 3.8" to 5.6" wide. Some of this difference comes from reducing the width of the centre tab (dimension F) from 3.9" to 2.4". I'm thinking on that one shoe I may do away with the centre tab altogether.
I have a customer who wants to replace the undercarriage on a D5N -XL HT but we are unsure if it has a System one undercarriage. If we are to convert it to a standard undercarriage do any of you have any insight on the difficulty of doing so?
If you are not sure what type of undercarriage the tractor has, either post a Serial Number (if it still has its original undercarriage installed), or a photo.
serial: CAT00D5NHAGG000615
If that S/N is correct as ending in AGG00615 (I think you got an extra zero in there) it was originally built in October 2003 with Heavy Duty undercarriage. It doesn't seem logical that it would have been changed to SystemOne during its life but stranger things have happened I suppose. The only definitive way to tell would be a photo of the track links.
Ok thats great to know I can't imagine it changed either, where did you look that up at?
Hey Cam, was just wondering if you had a result on the bet you had about the two dozers.- with a carrier and without.. Which one outlasted which?
Anyone find and aftermarket company making system one U/C yet?
Would not think any UC Manufacturer that dumb.
Figured might be some stuff out of China by now, slap it on gear going to the sale.
Be willing to bet System One came from China.
Even the Chinese ........
No aftermarket available yet, not even from China.
What is the ppr stand for?
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/11476292/catr-positive-pin-retention-2-ppr2-track-cat-parts Are the Pin Bores Staked to the pins in these Nige? Looks a lot like the Primer Pockets on my .50.
PPR means Positive Pin Retention. It's a ring on each end of the track pin that locks it in place. I suspect someone other than Cat makes System One because Komatsu Plus One is that same type of track.
I see I read up on it never dawned on me that the end play was the killer
Komatsu make theirs to their spec and I’d be surprised if there’s an aftermarket fix there either. I spent time last year trying to source a-m for a Cat and no go anywhere in the world at that time. I’d be very happy to be wrong, though.
I didn't say that it was available after market. I suspect someone holds a patent and sells on exclusive agreement. The track chains are of the same design but probably has differences in pitch and chain gauge.