Hello all. I'm in the process of purchasing a new machine and I have narrowed it down to these two. I've done the demos with both and each one seemed to do fine in my applications. They are both all kinds of strong and compared to the POS old dozers I grew up running, either one will spoil a person. Here's my question.... The Cat is about 4k more. A quickie demo doesn't tell a person everything. There's always more to the story. Anyone have any thoughts on which way to go based on what you know about the machines, the companies, Tier III vs. Tier IV, etc...? Both dealers are close by and I have no after the sale concerns. Thanks. I sincerely appreciate it.
If these are the two you have settled on these are some of the big differences I see: Net engine hp- CAT has 13% more out of the same 3.8L engine Engine torque- CAT has almost 20% more at 287 ft-lb vs. 231 ft-lb on the TL250 Hydraulic hp- advantage CAT with 25% more in addition to the CAT having a load sensing piston pump vs a gear pump (efficiency) CAT has speed sensitive ride control and the TL250 doesn't even offer ride control as an option CAT has pressurized cab and the TL250 does not CAT has air ride seat and the TL250 does not CAT has suspension and the TL250 does not CAT has a 17% advantage in ROC at 50% of tipping load TL250 has a pretty big advantage in breakout CAT has a 12% advantage in high speed travel CAT has return to dig and work tool return (returns the tool to the previous set position) CAT has self level both up and down and TL250 is only up CAT has electronic snubbing on its lift circuit TL250 does not (this dampens the speed at the end of the lift cycle to prevent bucket spillage) CAT has the variable speed fan that only turns as fast as needed (noise) TL250 does not There are other little tiny things like departure angles and such, but this list should lay out some of the key differences. They each have their strong suits, but I don't think that that $4k price difference is all that much considering all of the things that the 299 has as standard.
Hello again Digdeep. I was thinking the same thing but wanted to see if maybe I was missing something obvious.... There is a big difference in breakout, but I also know that Cat tends to under-rate a lot of things. I was not sure how Tak tends to market their numbers. I like that the Cat comes loaded with so many features. I'm not thrilled about the Tier IV but I guess III's aren't all that either. The old, simple diesels are a thing of the past. I'm leaning towards using a Marshall Tree Saw on it, but have not ruled out a mulching head yet. The Cat should handle both quite nicely. Thank you for your thoughts on this.
I like things on each machine, but its just my opinion that for $4k more you get much more "bang for your buck". Good luck with your purchase.
Some of those CAT options are add on costs and not standard (Ride control and return to dig function) that I am sure of without looking it all up. If can get a fully loaded CAT verse a fully loaded TK and it costs you 4K more for the CAT it would be hard not to buy the CAT. I am really surprised the price would be that close. TK needs to spend some R&D on comfort. Their cabs dont hold a candle to the major competetors. They are known for being powerful and durable. They lost some of their power in this last series but they still seem to dig well, but the numbers are not as strong as they used to be. They are becoming more electronically dependant as every OEM has. However if they could add Comfortable to powerful and durable they would really have a well rounded product.
In the last series, are you meaning comparing the TL250 to the new TL12 ?
Shane...the XHP version is pretty much fully loaded and comes standard with AMICS, electronic snubbing, return to dig, work tool return, decel pedal, etc. I'm pretty certain that the only things that are options are the type of quick attach- manual or electronic and a glass or poly door.
No I was referencing the TL150 verse the TL250. I may be wrong on the XHP options. When I was looking at 279. Those options were extra money.
You're correct on them being options on the 279, but my buddy at the CAT dealer said they just loaded out the 299D XHP kind of like a Cadillac with all the bells and whistles.
That's correct. My quote showed the poly door standard too. They are loaded to the gills. It is going to be really hard to go with the Tak given the price difference... but man, that Tak is an animal....
ksss can vouch for the fact that I'm not a huge fan of CAT, but I have to state that in this case the 299D XHP is far more of an animal than the Tak with the exception of breakouts; in spades when it comes to hp, torque and hydraulic capability.
The breakout/lift is what I was getting at... that thing is all kinds of strong.
Yeah, the Tak has good breakouts, but it doesn't look like the CAT would be lacking. Didn't you say you were going to be using a Marshall saw?
That's the current plan but as with anything it's subject to change if something better catches my eye. Too many rocks in my area for me to want to mess with a mulching head. I'm thinking the Marshall and maybe a grapple would make a pretty good combo for clearing. That Tak really impressed me for just grabbing trees and ripping them right out of the ground. The Cat isn't weak, but that Tak is just plain awesome in the breakout dept..
Tough choice.
For the price difference, I just can't see not going Cat. Clearing and using a Marshall negates some of the Cat advantages and favors the Tak breakouts, but comparing the two prices and considering the resale down the road, the Tak just is not as appealing an investment. And who knows what a person will be doing in a year... The hydraulics on the XHP might pay dividends then. Just thinking out loud here.... lol. I really need to get to the bottom of this steel track thing like was mentioned on the other thread. Tak doesn't have that option as far as I know.
IMHO I think all the extra benefits you get for such a small price difference makes it hard to pass the CAT up. I will get the kit number for you tomorrow during my planning hour.
I appreciate that. I like your numbers a lot more than the ones that were given to me...
What are those XHP's fetching these days....it's gotta be $80K, no? Just curious.
labradorguy would probably be able to give you a better answer if he's comfortable with it since he's recently been actively quoting one. I guess it all depends on how skinny the dealer is willing to get on a deal. You know how the game works. What are they quoting them for in your JCB territory? I'm sure you've quoted against a few.
I hope it didn't seem like I was "fishing"....I was honestly just curious. Since we don't have an XHP equivalent package for our 320T, I really haven't had to go up against one....I know obviously what our 320's bring, and from my experience, the standard 299's are similarly priced, usually a bit higher. I just was curious what kind of premium they are charging for the extra HP and hydraulics (ballpark....I don't expect him to email me his quote! .
I didn't take any offense, but thought you would know better than me since you're still "at" a dealership I just pester the heck out of my beer drinking buddies that still have to sell equipment for a living. My best guess is that a customer in a competitive deal could drive away with a 299D XHP for around $80k or less depending on who the CAT dealer is up against and how badly they wanted the deal. I'm not sure of the suggested list price, but its got to be in the $90k range.
Someone on here demoed or bought one and I thought the MSRP was just under 100k. It still surprises me that the TK and the CAT could be within 4K of each other. They must really discounting the CAT for that to happen.
Yeah...I remember something close to that figure, but I think it might have had a mulcher with it.
80K for a skid loader just seems like a pile of money to me! Isnt there something else out there that is more purpose built for this application? Could that product be cheaper per running hour? I really dont know, i have a skid but i dont make a living with it. I guess my limited experience has shown me that a skid loader isnt really that good at anything and there is usually something that is more productive, at least if you need a dedicated machine.
While the costs of these large track machines continue to rise, their capability also rises. I believe its important especially considering what these machines costs to keep them moving. A large track machine can handle the lighter end of small dozer duties, fork lift duties, load trucks, continue to operate in wet conditions, run a mulcher, etc. While these machines cant do any one of these tasks as good as a dedicated machine can, they do all of these in a productive manner. You can have one machine that can do a multitude of job duties or a handful dedicated machines that are parked more than they are making money. It comes down to the return on the investment, paying the new price on these tracked machines is tough to swallow, but man they are easy to keep moving and when they are moving they are making money. After purchasing my first new large dedicated CTL last year, I have no regrets. It was a lot of money but it more than pays its way.
So the steel tracks are 21.5k. I'm told that was correct, it is around 16k for the conversion kit, but the labor brings it up to the 21.5k mark. That is with Cat keeping the original rubber designed u/c. They claim the steel is going to last 3000+ hours. I'm told that rubber is going to run $2200 a side for parts only first swap out. Second would be a little higher, and third would require rollers and whatnot in addition to the rubber. Roughly 16k in parts and not figuring labor. It is seeming to me that this is going to work out fairly even in the end. I'm wondering how hard could it be to just put rubber tracks on a 299D by yourself? That would change things a little. But I'm also thinking that steel is going to give the machine a slight performance boost. I bet there would be a lot less issues with tracks walking off too. I'm told that happens a bit on the Cats and that a person really has to keep an eye on the track tension.
What is the market bringing per hour to do mulching work? Or maybe just doing whatever duties the job entails? If you can even figure it per hour, that is....