I have a first-generation TL-150 with ~2500 hours on it. A while back, I was having trouble getting it started and experiencing low power. A friend of mine ended up hooking up a "pull-wire" to something fuel solenoid related (it works, but I haven't even checked it out under the hood). The fix has been to put tension on the wire, and then when I turn the key to the run position, the wire moves about an inch or two, then I hit start, and it's all good. I tie the wire off, and everything is fine. I thought it was a fuel solenoid issue, but in googling the problem, it seems like it might be relay related. A few other symptoms that lead me to believe that are: The alternator light flashes, but I don't think I'm losing battery power ever I have no float on the boom The above-mentioned reaction when I turn the key I have been using the workaround for a few years, and even though it only takes about a minute to do, I'm probably losing time having done it a few hundred times instead of spending an hour or two to properly fix the issue. If anyone has any ideas for me, I'd like to face reality and take care of this. Thanks, Scott
Sounds like your fuel solenoid arm is sticking or the start coil on it is burned out.
First, I need a picture of the "override" setup. The fuel stop rod is concealed under the solenoid.
I can't hardly wait to see a pic of this set up lol
My advice, if it’s been working like this for that long, keep it up. lol
OK, I'll see about getting a picture of the override (a picture is worth a thousand words) and continue the conversation. I am a good operator, but didn't exercise any of my limited mechanical abilities on this. HarleyHappy, I have been working with your advice for quite some time, but as I said, I've certainly spent more cumulative time with the workaround than a repair would have taken, and may well continue that process . I am a work-alone, sole proprietor with a heavy workload, so sometimes it's better to focus on my clients, but the older I get, the more I'm realizing that taking a little "me time" keeps my attitude better and doesn't really affect the insurmountable task of getting everyone else's jobs done. I get to the end of the work season every year, and these just roll over to next year. I appreciate you guys weighing in on this and will do my best to follow up in the next month or so as my season winds down (northern Minnesota septic system installer). I will be snowbirding in early November, so this may run out to next spring, but if I do find a little "spare time," I'll get after it.
I would like to see a picture also.. some/most solenoids are adjustable.. If it’s the one I’m thinking of, there’s 2 10mm nuts that u loosen and adjust the “throw”..
This is the stop solenoid. Plunger is hidden when mounted, and is non adjustable.
Thanks.. U r correct.. non adjustable..
The machine is on another project, but I will be getting there next week and will take a minute to get picture(s)
I never met a TL150 that didn't need the two "triple" relays resoldered, ever. Every one here had that issue. And, if i simply replaced the relay, it would need resoldered within 3 years. The symptoms always varied, sometimes shutoff when driving, sometimes idiot lights, sometimes a no start, sometimes no hydraulics ...always different depending on which of the 6 relays had the worst cold solder joint.
Yep, I've come across this theory on a couple of searches. I was thinking about just ordering the entire bank of relays and replacing them. I also saw something about a relay tester that I might look into.
Never failed any relays on my TL150s except the BE31-107 "triple" relays and they're not really testable. Buying all of the others would be, well, ridiculous, and prove nothing. If you know how to use a soldering iron, take the two units apart and inspect them. I won't cost a dime.
Probably fixed better than new, at Zero cost. Simon C
I've got a soldering iron in the garage and have used it with success in the past. Probably worth a shot. Thanks for the encouragement!
These pictures are about mid to back engine on the operator's left side of the machine. The wire pulls to the front of the machine. I'm thinking that my friend probably had to remove the air filter setup to get to the area. I will look into the BE31-107 theory and see if that pans out.
Wow. I'm sorry for showing the wrong stop solenoid. I keep mixing up my takeuchi .
I just looked at my owners manual and came up with this page. I see one relay that I probably have to replace - "I" - heater-horn-float, as I don't have horn or float and that's 3 items so if that relates to the "triple" description, you're probably on to something. Would that be related to the fuel system issue that I'm having?
So, looking at this picture, I can see where the wire pulls. I'm trying to figure out if it's the solenoid, which, when I turn the key to the run position, allows that wire to move the inch that I mentioned (absolutely cannot pull the wire, but when in run position it pulls about as easy as peeling a banana, for reference ) and appears to allow the fuel circuit to activate, or if it's a relay not telling the solenoid to do its job.
Well if turning the key only, allows it to move, then more than likely it’s the solenoid pull in coil and not the relay.
So, I'm "assisting" a weak solenoid?
Certainly sounds like or your linkage is bound up, to a degree. My fuel solenoid is a bit weak and monthly I have to lube up the lever and linkage as it binds enough, it won’t shut off with the key occasionally. I just shut it off by hand and lube everything up and then it goes back to working fine. Don’t forget, it is a spring closed solenoid, so by turning on the key, it is unlocking and trying to suck in, then with the wire, you are helping, pull it in.
1) If mine, I’d remove it and bench test it with a battery charger or jump box. 2) That type of sol. the plunger will come out of the body.. You can run some scotch brite on the inside to clean it up.. 3) You can see on the breakdown the adjustment nuts, 14 & 15.. MAKE SURE the plunger bottoms out in the body when activated.. THATS VERY IMPORTANT.!! It MUST bottom out in the body.. Hope u figure it out.. good luck
Happy Spring, all(or summer, I guess!)! I got back to construction season and kept messing with the pull wire workaround, and finally said enough is enough. I'm pretty sure I've been avoiding the repair needed since 2019/2020, so 3 minutes every time I start and stop the machine has probably added up to at least ~3000 minutes (50 hours), so time to face reality and get after it. I got a new solenoid off eBay for about $30, I think. It was just a hair longer than the OEM, but the same form factor. Just in case, I called Takeuchi, and they want $620 for the OEM replacement. I did bench test my original one, and it functioned properly (full pull, no muck to hold back the plunger, etc. - @thepumpguysc ). I went ahead and put the new one in, anyway, just in case the original was lacking power. I plugged in the connector, turned on the key, and hit the starter position. The machine cranked over, but still nothing. I reached in and manually engaged the solenoid, and it fired up. So I pulled the connector apart and put the Fluke(s) to it, and I have 12 volts at the "prompt" terminal (for just a second), but no voltage at the "hold" terminal. This is kind of sending me back to the relay theory that was proposed earlier in this thread. I have a digital manual that I downloaded a while back, and I think I'll get after the relay for the float, and the horn (it looks like that is "I" relay from @heymccall on Oct 11 reply). It doesn't seem related, but I don't have float, nor horn, so while I'm in there I'll probably deal with that, too. That doesn't mention the stop solenoid (that looks like the #3's from the schematic of the same, specifically "C"). I'd better get the soldering iron out and see if I can find a cold joint, it's looking like. Here are some pictures from the "open" machine. You can see the $1.15 spacers that made the new solenoid fit (savings of $618 over dealer replacement), the solenoid wire connector picture shows my 12V diagnosis (12V on prompt, 0V on hold, not in picture, but that was result), and the 5-year wire shows that I didn't have much life left in the workaround (that was for you @HarleyHappy - Oct 1 reply ). I'll let you all know where this takes me.
Looks just like mine. I will say, adjusting it right was a PITA. The rod needs to be drawn in complete, not a millimeter off, or it won’t connect for the initial pull in. The hold current will go through a relay and fuse, shouldn’t be too hard to find with the schematic.
Amen to that..^^^
Planning on tearing in this weekend. We'll see how it goes....
Okay, back at it. I went ahead and just ordered 3 new relays ($250, so not bad vs. downtime) and put them in my machine. Still no luck. I have been scouring the electrical schematic (I downloaded a service manual, but the schematic is kind of gray), and with my symptoms of: No horn, no float, no stop solenoid, flashing alternator (that charges), and no runtime meter, I'm thinking about diodes now. I see a 3A diode hanging off of the circuit by the stop solenoid relay, and want to try to get to that to start looking there. I have removed every bolt that I can see around my right-hand control tower to try to get to the wire harness behind the fuse panel, but am not having any luck. It almost looks like I have to remove the floorboard (I've removed the bolts for the center panel (right below the seat between the control towers, but it's not coming out yet, either). We're at Phase II in this now, and any direction on just the mechanical access process would be great, as well as thoughts on my diode theory.
The diode has to forward bias in one direction only. Usually forward Bias will give a reading about .601 or close to it and reverse should be .OL on your meter with the meter on Diode test. That means Red Test lead on base of arrow with Black test lead just beyond the point of the Arrow. If the Forward test comes up as .OL then it is burn't. Reverse Bias test is Red Meter lead at point of Diode with Black meter lead at base of arrow. Meter will read .OL if diode is okay If diode on reverse test is Shorted or bad it will read .000 or will make sound. Hope it helps. Simon C
So, ripped the machine apart. Figured out how to get the tower off, so I have access to everything behind the fuse panel. Wish I'd looked closer and known what a diode looked like. I was told by Gemini that the diodes were taped into the wire harness, so I took down the relay block and started opening it up, but my friend who was helping me said, " What are these"? Ended up, the diodes, or at least many of them, are in the relay cluster housing. We found one that had a White/Yellow and a Black (Hold and Ground for the solenoid), but it tested good. Those wires ohmed out to the solenoid connector. We do not have voltage to the White/Yellow wire, but we should. The Red/Yellow pull wire has 12v for about 2 or 3 seconds, then times out. I had to go to a meeting, but my buddy took the schematic home to scour it. He called with a voicemail saying that there is a 45A fusible link in the circuit, so I suppose that will be the next thing to look for. The diode (and another one in the bundle) tested out >.500. Assuming that if 2 of them get the same reading when in diode mode in my multi-tester, that should be good. Contimuing the quest!
Better copy ?
That's great! I was an early adopter, Serial #21500081, but it looks like the wiring didn't change. My version is really grey and fuzzy, so it's nice to be able to see the crisp image that you shared. Thanks!
Your Stop Solenoid has a White wire on the Pull winding which is powered by the Stop Solenoid Relay at Pin #3. So if the Stop Solenoid Relay is not getting energized by the Stop Solenoid Timer then you have a no go for the Stop Solenoid. The Stop Solenoid Relay has a coil that is powered by the " B " Terminal of the Stop Solenoid Timer, then the power returns to the Stop Solenoid Timer Through it's " C " Terminal. Take a picture of that section of the schematic on your phone and see if you can follow what I just posted. If you are seeing different coloured wires than I posted, something is wrong. The Stop Solenoid Hold terminal is powered by a Red wire coming from the Emergency Relay Pin #4. If you do not get power at that pin #4 then there is more to consider but start with what I have posted. Something is obviously droping out or has insufficient power or ground for the relays and timers to do their jobs. When posting type in EXACTLY what the schematic calls something to help prevent confusion. It is all there on the schematic. Simon C
My bad, yes the white wire at the stop solenoid connector is getting the momentary 12v. The red wire is getting nothing when turning the key on.
Can I/Should I go back and edit my post with correct wire colors?
If the white wire is working correctly and the red wire is not, then the engine will start while cranking, but shutoff the moment the key is released.
OK, the white wire going to the stop solenoid has continuity to a white wire on the diode connector with a white and a black wire. That diode tests out to .524. The red wire has continuity to the "center" clip, left side of relay K, but does not have voltage when turning the key on. So, to recap, I replaced all 3 of the BE31-107 relay units (I, J, K) on the relay bank, so I'm taking a stab that they should all be good for at least a couple of minutes. Also, I had mentioned that my horn wasn't working, but I pulled the fuse, and while it looked just fine, it did not ohm out, so I replaced it, and I have a working horn. The cab is up, so I haven't seen if that had anything to do with the boom float not working (both of those being named in relay unit J, I thought that might be a clue). I double-checked the Stop Engine Solenoid - 30A fuse and it is good. So, I don't see any glaringly obvious signs of frayed wiring. That is all fastened very well running through the machine. I have 0 ohms on both of the "hot" wires going to the fuel solenoid connector. I checked 2 of the diodes, one that's in the picture below, and another one for comparison and they're both ~.524 when using the diode setting on my multimeter. I am trying to decipher the schematic to backtrack what should be powering the hold circuit, but I'm not really making sense of it yet.
Does "pull in" work, and the rod stay retracted while cranking? If you turn the key on, and physically push the rod in does it stay in? If it does not, ground the water level sensor (blue wire) and try again.
And, no, the engine cranks, but does not run
"Pull in" receives a prompt, as my workaround, having been my pull wire (now pull rope) allows me to put a little tension on the rope, and when I put the key in the "run" position, I am able to pull the solenoid about an inch toward the front of the machine (or maybe 25 mm, as this is a Takeuchi). Then, going to the "start" position with the key, it fires up and runs. I then tie off the rope, and the machine runs until I untie it.
Pull in shouldn't recieve a "prompt". Pull in should remain for at least five seconds while the key switch is in crank. The timer is there to prevent pull in coil burn out as the pull in coil will burn out with continuous duty. Also, if the linkage isn't long enough, allowing the plunger to bottom out when electrically pulled in, then the hold will never engage.
Maybe that was a bad descriptor (prompt), but what happens is I put a little tension on the workaround "manual" pull wire. It does not move at all until I turn the key to "run" and then I get the ability to pull it for that inch, or so. That's what I described as the prompt. So, key on allows me to open the fuel delivery with the manual pull rope, and once I hit start and tie off the rope, the machine runs until I untie the rope, which releases the stop solenoid and kills the engine. It's no more than 2 seconds of voltage to the pull-in. I did put the new solenoid in, and I did my best to match the throw of the old one. That said, I bench tested the old one when I got it out, and it was working properly. I'm also not getting any voltage on the hold side of the wiring.
Apparently, I can't upload a video, but I just went out and plugged the old solenoid into the connector. As I said earlier, when I bench-tested it, it worked properly. When I turn on the key, I get about 1 second of pull, and then it pops back out. Does this maybe point to the Stop Solenoid Timer, as you suggest that I should expect 5 seconds? That said, the workaround pull rope can hold the solenoid in place, and the machine will run indefinitely once I give it the key power, even though that only lasts the one second. I just tried hitting the start position immediately (normally I wait for the beeper and lights on the dashboard to quit), and I did not get any engine run. I thought maybe I'd get a second or two. So I'm pretty convinced that whatever should put 12V to the Hold is not doing it.
You need 2 quality fairly fast meters hooked up at the same time. The reason I say that is that you were able to get the old solenoid to work when on bench. If you have adjusted the throw correctly then one meter will be hooked up to the pull winding with the other meter hooked up to the hold winding. The hold winding of the Stop Solenoid is powered up by Pin#4 of the Emergency Relay. If it is not sending power, that would tell me that the coil of the Emergency Relay is being excited and pulling the contacts apart. If there is positive power coming into Pin#1 or #2 of the Emergency Relay then do not expect your machine to start. Start by testing these things. Simon C
I've had a couple of my Flukes hooked up to the hot side of the Stop Solenoid connector. I got 1 second of 12V on the white (pull), but nothing on the red (hold). Picture just shows what and where they are. I get the momentary 12V on white wire, nothing on red wire side. I've verified that I have continuity from that connector to various locations on the relay package (white to a diode, red (actually a red/yellow) to a clip going into Relay K), so the wires should be good. I need to figure out what is supposed to give the red wire its 12V. If I'm following you, Pins #1 + #2 affect the coil in Relay K (Service 1 Way, Coolant and Emergency Relay). That relay looks like it's normally closed, which is closed to the red wire to the Stop Solenoid. When I turn the key on, I have 12.5V to both the Green wire (Pin 1) and the Blue Black wire (Pin 2). If I'm understanding you, that would open the circuit and not power the red wire. I'm attaching pictures of what I am checking to make sure I'm in the right place.
Okay, so I have never worked on this exact machine but the schematic says: Suggest you take a picture with your phone so you can follow what I am writing. #1 Stop Solenoid Hold goes to Emergency Relay Pin 4 and out by Pin#3 #2 Goes to Emergency Stop Relay 1 NC Contact out to " C " Terminal to Fuse # 2 and at the same time there is a Slice that goes straight up in schematic to the ACC Terminal of the Stop Solenoid Timer. My suggestion is to get a 1156 Bulb ( Draws 2.03 Amps ) with a pigtail for a test but first disconnect the battery and put a glove on each terminal end. Then disconnect the Stop Solenoid Connection, Disconnect the Stop Solenoid Timer, Remove the fuse#2 from the fuse panel. Might want to start the test first with a 67 (12 volt Bulb- Draws 545 milliamps ) with a pig tail and take battery power through the bulb out the bulb into the Stop Solenoid Hold pin and all the way to the Stop Solenoid Timer Acc terminal which is disconnected and send that power to the Battery ground. The Bulb ( 67 ) Should be well lit up and bright or there is a problem at your cluster ground connection is my guess. You can see where the power goes into the Cluster and back out, is there something controlling it or not I cannot tell you. Read these instructions over and see if anyone else responds why we cannot do this loop test to verify the strength of the wiring and connections. This would be a low amp test and could be followed by a higher amp ( 1156 bulb -2.03 amp test ). You have tested the positive and ground at that Cluster before you do anything is my first QUESTION and needs to be answered or tested. They are just above the Buzzer below and to the right of the Monitor on the schematic. Your thought or comments.? Simon C
Your fuse Panel if you examine it is powered by a larger 5W wire into the #2 fuse by a 2W on the left side of the panel. That is the left side of the Fuse panel and what I would call the unfused side ( actually fed by the Starter Switch ACC Terminal ) , where as the wire leaving #2 Fuse is smaller and comes out as a 2G wire, then changes up to a smaller 1.25WL wire going to the Emergency Stop Relay Pin " C ". Has that Starter Switch been tested incase it is dropping out the power to the ACC terminal when the heavy voltage to the Safety Relay is trying to start the unit. Let me know what you find, and best to write a note for everything you find to eliminate not quite sure of stuff. Simon C
Just one other thought. Your starter is wired direct from the battery positive and will take the majority of the power available. If there is any voltage loss going through the 45 amp fusible link down to the Battery Terrminal of the Starter Switch, or too much loss across the Starter Switch to feed the ACC terminal of Starter Switch that feeds the #2 fuse and then up to the Stop Solenoid Timer ACC terminal, you will have a no start. Do you know how to do accurate voltage drop testing with current flowing. Simon C
I'm not sure about measuring voltage drop. I would think I'd have the meter on the battery positive and take the reading, then crank the engine and see what the difference is. If that isn't it, I'd gladly take direction!
This is starting to sound complicated. Take a fused wire (jumper) from battery positive to the red wire at the stop solenoid. Just strip the wire end and shove it into the back side of the red wire terminal. Now, attempt to start the machine? Does it start? If not, leave that jumper in and pull the stop lever so as to depress the rod into the solenoid. Does it now start?
Post number 42 states that he had power at Pull terminal but post 45 shows the RED arrow pointing to Zero volts at Emergency relay feeding the Hold Terminal of the Stop Solenoid. I would say guaranteed what you have posted will work but just not fix his problem. His rope trick is working but not safe is why I think he is trying to fix. Simon C
One test lead on Battery positive, while holding the other lead on Emergency Relay Pin #4 while cranking for 3-5 seconds. If there is more than 0.5 volts loss up to there , try the test going back at a different location towards Fuse Number 2 again until you find the fault spot. Once you get minimal loss you know where the loss of potential is happening. There has to be some current flowing or there will be no loss. Otherwise do the bulb tests I suggested. It will always put load on a wire and connections. Simon C