Was using the TL230 yesterday, seemed to be running normally, shut it down to cut up a log. Went to restart it, get the normal light show on the indicator panel but it won’t crank. Once the light show is over, the oil pressure light blinks and the alarm sounds in sync with the oil pressure light. Things I have checked: - Battery voltage 12.6V - Voltage from battery negative post to frame less than 0.05V - All fuses check ok, removed and cleaned contacts, reinstalled - Voltage on coil of start relay when cranking - 0.0V (relay hasn’t failed) - Start relay is driven by the safety relay, which has 3 inputs: - Keyed 12V is present - A pin with a white / black wire is at 11.0V when key is in start position - A pin with a blue wire remains at zero V, suspect this is the alternator tachometer output (blue wire on alternator) Wiring diagram shows a second start relay that is controlled by the computer, don’t know where this relay is physically, thinking that is the source of the white / black wire. This relay switches battery voltage, don’t know why it’s measuring 11.0V. Alarm stops sounding when I remove the safety relay. I am preoccupied by the oil pressure light, could we have a failed oil pressure switch / broken wire? Any guidance on where the pressure switch is physically located (Kubota 4cy diesel)? Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance!
Believe I have found the problem. The safety relay is a standard Panasonic part, looked it, got the pin out (just shows up as a box in the wiring diagram). Switched 12V goes to one side of the coil, other side goes to the alternator’s tachometer output. When things are operating normally, upon being 12V applied to the alternator the tachometer output should pull to ground through an open collector transistor, enabling the safety relay and allowing the start relay to actuate. In this case, the tachometer output didn’t pull to ground, inhibiting starting. I pulled the plug off the alternator, verified continuity of the tachometer output to the safety relay and the presence of 12V on the alternator’s field pin. Cleaned the plugs contacts, put it back together, still no joy. Had an old alternator on hand, plugged the wire harness into it, things work normal, safety relay energizes.
Where is the starter relay? The other day I turned the key and all lights on display and went off. I had a guy fix it and he said the relay was bad. I don’t know where he replaced it. Having trouble getting in touch with him. Same thing happened today. Went to start it after running great yesterday and as soon as I turned key, all display lights went off. I assume relay again but have no idea what’s blowing it??
The starter relay is located over the battery next to the air cleaner under a metal cover. It’s the front most relay. IMO it’s highly unlikely the starter relay is causing your display to dim when starting. The starter draws several hundred amps when cranking, this current flows from the positive terminal of the battery through the main power contactor to the starter solenoid and through the solenoid to the starter motor, returning through the starter housing / frame to the battery negative terminal. The display going dark when cranking suggests its loosing voltage, the most likely cause is a poor connection in the path between the battery positive post and the output of the main power contactor. Suggest - Measuring the battery positive post voltage to ground while cranking, does it stay above 12V? If not, look for a bad battery - Measure the battery negative post (not the clamp) voltage to frame while cranking, does it remain under 100mV? If not, look for a bad connection to the battery, a bad cable or a poor connection where the cable connects to frame. - Measure the voltage on the battery side of the main power contactor while cranking. Does it remain above 12V? If not, check the positive battery connection and the cable between the battery & the contactor. - Measure the voltage on the output of the main power contactor while cranking, if it drops way down suspect a bad contactor. Recently I posted the schematic & parts list for the TL230 on the skid steer forum library. Good Luck & Happy Hunting.
@Shblack Thanks for the detailed reply. Let me clarify something. My display isn’t dimming, it’s completely off. When I first turned to start it went dead. No lights, no starting of the engine, nothing. It’s like trying to start with the battery out of the machine. When I turn the key to on, there is nothing, nada lit up as far as gushes, lights won’t come on etc. it’s like a fuse blew and shut everything off. Also, please see the video- what is this blinking red and geeen on the back??
Is that on the outside of the machine? If so, I have no idea - it’s not on my machine. There are fuses / fusible links on the right rear down near the battery, they have brownish plastic cover over them secured with 10mm nuts. When I was trouble shooting my problem I checked these fuses. Found one totally burned up, turns out it was the AC fuse - not my problem at the time, but replaced it & the holder. However, bad contacts on the main power contactor could cause the problem you are experiencing. Do you have a wiring diagram or schematic
I checked all fusible link area. Is this the metal box where the relays are located?
That’s the location, the cover is secured by two nuts, one in each end. The relay closest to you when the cover is removed is the main power contactor.
Here is a snippet of the wiring diagram, showing the battery, contactor, key switch and fuseable links.
Great thanks. I don’t have a relay tester, so I guess will just change out and see if it works. Any idea why I would go through a relay so fast? It was just replaced last week??
Do you have a volt meter? This is easy to test.
I do
Looking at the wiring diagram, one terminal should have 12V with the key off (heavy wire), one terminal should have continuity to frame (small black wire). That leaves two terminals. With the key switch on both of these wires should have 12V. If the smaller wired terminal doesn’t have 12V, then the key switch circuitry / wiring has a problem. If the smaller wired terminal has 12V and the heavy wire terminal doesn’t the relay has failed. Does the relay look new?
I haven’t got it out yet (conference call) but I did look at a YouTube video how to test relays. Yes, the relay is only 4 or 5 days old- if that’s the problem
I took the metal cover off, shown below. Don’t see any relays??
Weird- I went out to the machine after sitting all day and turned key to on, every came on. When I turned to start, Everything went black again and won’t do anything
With key on, both circled connections should have same voltage (12volt).
Great, I will try that tomorrow. I did find something today. I thought about possibly a ground problem since the gauges and lights came on after sitting all day. So, I took jumper cables and went from negative in battery to the block and viola, everything came on and the machine started- I have to have a bad ground. I hear they get a lot of corrosion where it grounds to the body, so that will also be on my list tomorrow. I think I’m getting somewhere!
The round object with the two heavy wires is the main power contactor. None of the three relays shown have been replaced recently. The battery negative connection is connected to the frame on a stud right inside of the rear door opening by the battery. A good starting point is to take the lug loose, clean both the lug and the base of the stud (mine had paint on it). If problems persist, measure the voltage between the frame and battery negative post with the key on. Should be near zero volts, if not you may have a bad connection on the battery or a failed ground cable (they can corrode internally).
Great information- I will tackle this today!
@Shblack - Another question- my fuel gauge is all of a sudden reading wrong- too high. Any ideas here? Thanks in advance!
Hello- It's been a while. Still working on this machine. It's actually worked since we last messaged. Needed a new starter too- all that was good and ready to go. I have 12v on both posts you told me to check with key on. I also have continuity to ground when I test ground to frame- I think it read 02.00. I turn the key on, all lights come on, I hear the fuel pump, turn the key, nothing! So frustrating....
So were you able to get it to start & operate, but now have a new problem? The voltage from the battery negative post (not the clamp, the actual lead post) to frame when cranking should be very low, maybe 0.1V. If it’s 2V that means only ~10V is available for the starter less whatever other losses there might be. I mention the post, since measuring from the clamp to the frame will miss a bad connection to the battery post.
Hello- I may have said the wrong thing. I was getting 2 ohms when measuring from battery to ground. I have 12v on each post you told me to check (solenoid?). Yes, it worked for a while, now the same thing happening. I’m missing something! I have not checked switch or anything near the starter. Just messing with battery now- connections, etc.
You can not test for how good a cable is in the ohms scale. A cable with 100 strands, of which 99 are broken will test 100% as there is still 1 perfect path from end to end. The cable will run nothing. From negative post to frame can read as high as 0.5 volts while trying to start. Hope it helps. Meter will be on DC Volts. Simon C
Ok thank you. I was checking continuity per posts I have been reading. I’ll do the negative cable volt check tomorrow. What part of TN are you in?
Simon is correct, also even a slight voltage difference between the ends of the cable will give a wildly wrong resistance reading, plus the resistance of the test leads & probes is probably 100X higher than a good ground cable. Measuring voltage drop under load is the only to test a heavy cable like those used on the battery. I am in middle TN, up in Houston county.
Thanks guys. The problem is it’s not turning over at all. Just a click. With that being said, will I be able to see that volume drop as the key is turned even though not cranking?
With The key in the run position after maybe 30 seconds does the oil pressure light come on and an alarm sound (assuming the alarm hasn’t been disconnected)? The current will be much lower without it cranking, so there should be virtually no voltage between the negative post and frame. Why was the starter replaced?
I’ll check that today. The starter started hanging and getting stuck “open”
In post #28 you say that the starter does not crank but you hear a click. Put positive meter test lead on positive battery and hold there with needle vicegrips if you do not have alligator clips. Hold negative test lead on S-Terminal of starter while someone holds the key switch in start position for 5-10 seconds. If the reading on the meter is more than 0.5 volts with fully charged battery, you have a problem in the safety circuit. What voltage did you get on your meter when checking the ground as I advised in post #25 from frame with red test lead, to battery negative with black test lead while holding the key in start position for 5-10 seconds. Good to have lights and fan on when doing test to flow some current to be able to measure voltage drop. Take a picture of this post to know what test to do when you get to machine. My little trick! Let me know what you find and will advice what to check next. Simon C
Did you check to see if the alarm / oil pressure light came on? If it does it suggests a problem in the safety circuit, where the alternator isn’t pulling the safety line down when powered but not turning.
Hopefully try tomorrow- rained all day today. Thanks again, so frustrating!!
Hopefully try tomorrow- we had rain all day. Thanks again for the help!
So when I first turn the key I hear a beep, all lights come on, then go off. Then all that is blinking is the oil light and battery light. I can hear the fuel pump. Soon as I turn the key-nothing. I let it sit with the key on and it never beeped again.
I believe I wrote about this earlier. The alternator has 3 electrical connections - Heavy wire, carries the alternator output to charge the battery - Swiched 12V, which excites the alternators field allowing it to generate power - Control line (don’t know what it’s called), switches to ground when the switched 12V is applied (alternator not turning), goes to 12V when the alternator is turning & producing 12V. The control line has two functions, when low it allows current to flow in the coil of the safety relay, which closes its contacts allowing current to flow in the coil of the start relay when the key is moved to the start position. It also tells the computer the motor is running when it’s at 12V. When it’s at 12V and the computer doesn't see an output from the oil pressure switch it assumes there is no oil pressure (there isn’t any, the motor isn’t running) and turns on the oil pressure light. So my suggestion is for you to measure the voltages on the 4 pins of the safety relay with the key switch in run position.
Safety relay
Pin diagram of safety relay, service manual doesnt have this info.
SF relay is the safety relay, it applies power to the start relay.
Great info- thanks. Big stupid question- where is the SF on the machine? I assume when checking all 4 leads with my multi meter, I’m testing with red and grounding the black to the frame, bolt, etc?
Not asking is the stupid question. They hide stuff all over machines. I think Shblack will answer soon with location. I would say close to fuse panel or in engine compartment, but I dont own one so who knows. Simon C
Thats generally my problem, I see parts on the wiring diagram, can’t find them on the machine. Down by the battery there are 3 fuses, each covered by a tan plastic cover. The fuses are mounted on a metal plate, the SF relay is behind the plate. Here is a photo, I had to replace one of the fuses (40A for the AC) due to the holder burning up. Spliced in a new fuse holder, didn’t want to replace the wire harness. You can measure from the rear of the SF relay socket to ground.
Hello, maybe you can help. I’m dealing with a starting issue on my tl230. It all started when my alternator took a dump, put on a new alternator and then the starting issue showed up. Originally it would start when I first put on the alternator, but it would turn over very intermittent and you could hear the benedix not making consistent contact with the flywheel. No it won’t start at all with the key switch. Start digging into the electrical system, I have continuity at from the control wire to the safety relay. Check the voltage of control wire at the safety relay, it’s 12v with the key on, oil light flashing and beeping, no start. If I use my power probe and put it to ground, beeping goes away and it will start. Assuming this new alternator is bad?
Sounds like it, but check the connector that plugs into the alternator, if it’s not making a good connection you could have the same problem. I replaced it, it was cheap on Amazon and I was sick of screwing around with an intermittent problem. If you have a can of DeoxIT try giving both ends a spray then working the connector on and off.
Copy that; I’ve double checked the connection. Seems to fit good and plug looks clean. I think I’ll buy a cheap alternator off amazon like you did and see if it fixes the problem. If so, then I’ll probably just get a new OEM for piece of mind.
Went ahead and tested my grounds some more, everything looked good, passed continuity. So I went ahead and ordered an OEM alternator from Kubota and put it on tonight, it fixed my starting issue. Thanks everyone for their help and shblack for going into detail with his repair. It helped me immensely.