Hi there...May buy a TD25 Power Shift Series B. I can't find the serial number on it. The owner said it was a 1970 model. The under carriage, tracs, etc are 60%. Has had a new head put on it but it has been sitting for about 8 months though it started right up and did its business. After about an hour, it started to smoke real black - turbo bad?? Is it worth the trouble? I would be using it to clear a home site...
Welcome to HEF HillBillyJohn! :drinkup
dont know what its worth but some parts on the older ones hard to come by. did the differential in one few years back had to go with a used gear set. but when running good they push like hell. you said black smoke, did it have balls??? some one might have turned up the ananoid valve =more fuel more power and more smoke. If it had no balls fir st thing to check for dirty air filtger = black smoke, and tired fuel system. if its the turbo, it went that hour or so you were runnin it. once a turbo lets go thats it, it'll smoke soon as it fires up.if smoke smells like oily and is more blue than black than you got other issues. check for blow by, reman head and all the rings could be leaking note :the worst thing to do is to let something sit for 8 mon or a 1 year ect. all the seals dry out and stuff starts gumming up ever have problems starting the snowblower on the first winter storm
I've seen TD25C's with no rippers go at the auctions for under $10K.
A B series has the 817 International engine. If it goes bad the machine is worth less that scrap price. They don't make that engine anymore and parts are almost nonexistant.
Td25b 1970???????? Hi, HillBillyJohn. Welcome to the forum. I ran a TD25C in early 1970 and the 'C's had been out for a little while then so I'm wondering if the current owner might not be 'flexing' the truth a little about its age. That black smoke is a sign to be VERY wary of the beast. You say it showed up after an hour of operation. Well, turbos have been known to give up without warning. Just the same, check the air cleaner first. A choked air cleaner will cause black smoke with SOME power loss but it comes on gradually. A blown turbo can cause black smoke quite suddenly and almost always comes with a HUGE power loss. Tread carefully. These jiggers only have a good reputation with died-in-the-wool IH fanatics. The 25C was a better machine but still did not have the longevity and reliability of a Cat D8H. They do handle reasonably well and push O.K. too. Trouble is they don't seem to keep doing it like a D8. Just a thought, what have you got on this house site that you need that much machine? Are you in Redwood country? LOL.
At the company where my dad used to work they had a TD25 not sure of the letter and on the same job they had a newer D8, Mid 90's or so. The guys got a little bored and put them blade to blade and pushed. The TD pushed the D8 backwards like nothing. I just cant belive they didnt break anything. The big problem they had with the TD was parts. It was next to impossible to find parts for it.
The TD25B's and C's were a better machine than the later 25G's. The International engine was twice the horse the later Cummins ever were. But they were known to be a bit weak in the heads and crank areas. I'd say check the filters first too, than the turbo. Next would be the fuel system and timing. I've heard of guys replacing the International engine with the Cummins, but I do not know how difficult or expensive it was. 855 Cummins in 350 HP are fairly common and I'd think they could be adapted fairly easily. About the worst 25's were the ones produced in Poland in the early 90's. That wasn't too long after the communists were ousted, and the workers still had the "I pretend to work, and they pretend to pay me" attitudes. I loved running the 25C, would take it in a heartbeat over an 8 anyday.
Surfer, I've never been on a TD25, how are they steering wise? Are they as fast as a D8H? And what about the transmission feel? Is it similar to the 8's? The torque dividers in the 7's to 9's has a nice crisp feel, just wondering how the TD25's compair? I remember a TD25 years ago that had the hydraulic pump driven at the front of the crankshaft, kinda like the old front tank (bubble nose) 8's and 9's. And of course it was broke. Very bad idea to drive a pump from there. How about the C's where did they drive the pump at?
Dozer, the 24's, 25's and 30's all had the two-speed steering, which was controlled right at the steering levers. I believe the latest models TD20's also had this feature. Don't know if the 40's have it or not. No individual foot brakes tho they did have one foot brake pedal that operated both brakes together. The steering worked with a set of planetary gears -- high speed on both tracks was all the way forward and was direct drive. If you pulled both levers back a notch, that kicked in the planetary drive and the machine slowed, but had more power at the tracks. Pull just one lever back and the tractor would slew in that direction cause one track is in direct drive and the other is in planetary drive. The direction the tractor would turn was just the opposite in reverse from going forward. It took a little getting used to. But for cutting into a bank with one corner of the blade it was beautiful. Once you got to the point where you would normally pull the steering clutch on the outside of the cut on a D8, you simply clicked the steering lever back on a 25 and the outside track would go into planetary -- slower -- speed and that would force the tractor to cut a fairly straight path which you could adjust by the depth of your cut. You didn't wear your arm and one foot out stomping on the brake and feathering the steering clutch like an 8. International introduced this feature in a different way on their farm tractors in the early 60's. They called it a "Torque Divider" or some such name and it basically did the same thing. You threw the TD lever and the transmission would engage a set of planetary gears that slowed the tractor down in every gear, but greatly increased the engine speed and power available to till thru tough soil. Once you were thru that patch of ground, you kicked the lever out of TD and the tractor sped up. You did not have to use a clutch and change gears like other tractors. The dozer was the same, you could flip those steering levers back and forth all day long and no clutch was needed to turn. I recall that the 25's were always a little faster than the Cat 8's, and of course, the steering was much faster as the transition between direct and planetary in the steering was instantaneous. I believe the transmission was faster shifting between gears as well. Lot's of Cats have that slight hesitation between the gears as the clutches disengage and reengage. The Internationals never had that. Not the ones that I ran anyway. The biggest difference performance wise that I ever noticed, well, there were more than one, was that the D8 could raise it's blade about a foot higher than the 25's. I think the "G" model 25 was finally about the same tho. The 25 engine was far quicker in acceleration. Early models had a nice exhaust sound -- no muffler after the turbo. I do not remember much about the hydraulic pumps.
So are you saying the steering is kinda like the old 450 case dozers? I've run them before, and its still not as fast or controllable as individual steering brakes. So then there is no way to actually brake one track at a time on a TD25? Thats the thing I hate about all this hystat stuff not fast enough for raking and cleaing
Oh, sorry Dozer. No, the Internationals had individual brakes too, but they were hydraulically applied by moving the steering levers all the way back. You could feather them by the distance you pulled them back. So, if you wanted to stop, you stepped on the foot brake pedal. If you wanted to turn hard one way or the other, you pulled a steering lever back. So for example, if you wanted to turn right, and were in high speed, you would pull the right lever back into planetary drive. That would start a positive turn by slowing the right track. Then if you wanted to turn harder to the right, you pulled that right steering lever back further untill the brake engaged. Now that you mention it, I think the old Case dozers had a similar setup. Not sure about the smaller sizes, but the old 1150's had something like it. Don't know a thing about new Case dozers. Never worked for anyone in the last twenty years that had one, and I was never interested enough to wander over to one and look at it.
I can't speak for any other model, but I had a Case 310E hilift. (For some reason I think they may also have had a 310 backhoe, but this was a 3/4 yard track loader.) It was made in 1964. Steering was similar to what you say. It had a dry clutch with 3 forward and 1 reverse gear. There were brake bands in the transaxle. To turn you pulled the handle back. The brake pedal was simply linked to pull both brakes on at the same time, but it was just as easy to wrap your arm behind both levers and pull them together.
I've wrenched on a 350 case dozer, what it has is a regular differential like a car, and the levers just apply brakes on either side, and when you lock one the other keeps on going. Yeah kinda like the old farm wheel tractors. Its a pretty simple and cheap steering system.
I belive the farmalls with the planetary reduction were call torque amplifieing. That must be nice having that much control of the track speed individualy
Yes the old farmalls had what was called a torque amplifier, of whith there are two variations. The first were mechanical and stopped with the 56 series tractors, the main problem with the mechanical one is that it would not hold you back when you were going down hill, in fact it let the tractor free wheel. With the introduction of the 66 series about 1970, came a hydraulic version that would hold back on a down slope. That t/a system had little cams or sprag clutches that wore over time and would slowly stop holding the tractor back. Oh, the old cases used twin three speed sticks and two brake pedals for steering, the steering levers didnt have any braking feature associated with them. So if your left brake froze the only way to turn left is to grab the right break in reverse. Shifting gears usually works if the brakes are good, but with bad brakes and no load in front the slower track will coast along with the faster track.
Chris, you're exactly right. That is what International (and Farmall) called it, a "Torque Amplifier."
Here's the entire list of TD25's sold by Ritchies in the last year worldwide. 1983 INTERNATIONAL TD25E CRAWLER TRACTOR 4370003U001000 Dec - 2006 USA-CA 17,000 USD SU/dozer w/tilt, cab, 4 bbl MS ripper 1974 INTERNATIONAL TD25C CRAWLER TRACTOR 4360056V003000 Aug - 2006 USA-CA 16,000 USD S/dozer, cab, 2 bbl MS ripper 1968 INTERNATIONAL TD25B CRAWLER TRACTOR 1000 Oct - 2006 CAN-ON 3,500 CAD S/dozer w/tilt, canopy, drawbar INTERNATIONAL TD25B CRAWLER TRACTOR TD25BP3000 Oct - 2006 CAN-ON 3,500 CAD SU/dozer w/tilt
i never put them blade to blade but have ran both a D8 & TD25 & The TD25 Always seemed to out push the D8 But just didnt last as long As the Cat & when my Granddad was alive he swore by THE MUSCULE OF an I.H. TD20 & TD 25 Over a D7 & D8 Cat esp the V8 TD25 . far longivity id chose the Cat but pushing power in my opion it was a I.H. & when it came to farm tractors i spent a lot of time on a 1066 ,1466 1566 & 1206 & 1256 I.H. Farmalls pulling pans, landlevels disks & sheepsfoot rollers later Bulldog
Good Summing Up Hi, Tn Bulldog. You have captured the essence of the difference between the IH and Cat machines right there in your first sentence. I have only ever run one IH machine, a TD9 hydraulic dozer which I liked, but I have seen a lot of them in years gone by working alongside Cat machines - - - - for a while. And yes, they would out-push the Cat machines - - - - while they were working. Trouble was they didn't KEEP out-pushing the Cat machines. They liked to stop for a 'rest-and-recuperation' every now and again. This applies more to the larger models of IH because the TD6's and TD9's always appeared to me to be pretty bullet-proof little machines. After the second world war, when Cats were hard to get for a while, the various Australian state governments started using IH TD18's and a few TD24's on large-scale land clearing projects. There would be two dozers pulling several hundred feet of ship's anchor chain between them pulling down light timber and scrub. They soon found that the IH machines didn't stand up to it anywhere near as well as the few Cat machines they had, even though many of the Cats were ex-war machines. The other problem that the earlier IH machines with the gas-start diesel engines had was that they tended to crack heads if shut down hot. They liked to be idled down for 10 to 15 minutes to take a lot of the heat out of the engine. The operators that I spoke to reckoned this applied right across the range.
Lot of truth to Deas post. The International idea of starting on gas and operation on diesel was very popular in northern climates cuz the damn things would at least start in real cold weather. I always liked the quiet rumble of a TD24 on gas, sort of like listening to a big tiger purring, then the switch over and the cackle and then roar as the diesel took off. Fun! Ya know, the worst thing about both the Cat pony engines and the duel fuel Internationals was that every time I went to use one, some SOB had run the gas tank dry. I really hated the pony engines Cat used, till they finally realized that, gee, they started easier with an electric starter motor. But even then, they were cantankerous. The worst ones were the models that had the pony starter crank rod going down thru the hood with an angle drive into the pony. AAAAAAH!!!! International tried and converted to glow plugs as soon as anyone, unfortunately, the method they used wasn't very good, Cat's was better. Still, glow plug engines were hard to start in very cold weather, even with ether. The introduction of direct injection was very welcome so far as I was concerned.
Where did he work, Plushanski????
Had an opportunity to bid on a TD25B in reasonably good shape at an auction just over a year ago, ended up selling for $4K, now thats cheap hp in my books, rarely a day goes by I don't regret it. I believe the model first mentioned would be a B going by the year, the C's had more improvements. The 817's are getting to be an expensive proposition to repair now, the 2 speed planetary was a more efficient way of transmitting power although IH released the first 24's too early without being properly tested and it gave them a bad rap. I'm not sure if you need this much crawler for your project and I would check it out thoroughly or have some do it for you as when things go array with these big dozers you are into a money pit or part it out or a huge lawn ornament, all brands guilty here. I have yet to run a 25, have ran the 24's and have a 14 and 18 but as one gets older you tire of the steering levers. Ease of operation and double the weight has some appeal. I think it was the TD20E's that had the V800, those things sound wicked, the 817's were a powerhouse. I recall seeing a productivity brochure long ago put out by IH no doubt that pitched a current model 25 against the similar D8 brushing 2 virgin quarters of land starting side by side and working away from each other, the 25's productivity was very close to 50% greater, one wonders if the 8's operator was giving his best? Deas Plant maybe that was one of the reasons they took a break on occasion, they could to let the others catch up You have a nice day now
Heres a couple of pics of the 25B at auction, barely more than scrap price.
Pushing Virgin Bush or Pushing Rock. Hi, Hardtail. I didn't see that brochure but I did see a TD25B and 270 hp D8H side by side clearing light to medium scrub and the TD25B did outwork the D8H by a small margin as it was quite a bit quicker over the ground and the going was relatively light. It wuz a horse of a different colour though, when you put a TD25C and a 270 hp D8H into hard rock. The TD25C was just too fast for its own good, even in low range on the steering planetaries. It had 2 final drives in 5,000 hours, and not all of that in rock either, while the D8 had about two track shoe bolts in more or less the same time in pretty much the same work. Where the TD25C did shine out over the D8H was in push-loading Cat 631C scrapers. It got them out of the pit a bit quicker with the planetaries to change range and it backed up for the next one a bit quicker too. It also seemed to like the long steady pushes better than the rough work in the rock. Not as many shock loads to the drive train, I suspect. Most of the operators didn't mind running the TD25C, although most also found it a bit harder to judge their turns when picking up scrapers on the run by sliding the blade under the push block on the turn. Once you got used to it though, it was fairly easy. Most of the difficulty was simply the difference between 'clutch-and-brake' turns, a la D8, as opposed to 'through-low-range-to-brake' on the TD25C. I still remeber those 2 final drives though, and the 'fun' that the mechanics had trying to track down a knock/rattle that developed at about 2,500 hours. When the noise first developed, they thought it was in the torque converter, so they pulled that and examined it thoroughly - and found nothing. They put it back together and the noise was still there. Next, they pulled the transmission and checked that with a fine-toothed comb. Nada, zip, zilch, so back it went and the noise lived on. Finally, some mug operator about my size (The size that I was back then, in 1970.) took a large plastic-handled screwdriver that had the steel shaft running right up through the plastic handle, put the tip against the side of the block while the engine was running and the mechanics were listening to the mysterious noise, and placed his ear against the other end of the screwdriver. 'Backside' beats brains anytime. I just happened to place the tip of the screwdriver against the block right where the BENT PUSH ROD was knocking against the block. After listening for a few seconds, I said to one the mechanics, "Would you like to come and listen to this?". He looked at the 'mug operator' a bit strangely but did come and listen and 15 minutes later, the process was in motion and the head came off. The noise was gone when it went back on. I did think that the fearsome great handle on the powershift control was a bit of an overkill but otherwise I liked the controls and the deck was nice and clear and spacious. Visibility was quite good and the dozer handled well in good going but was a bit fast in rock. Sidecutting tracks around hillsides was a breeze compared with the D8H.
No, falcon excavating out of north jersey. If you were in north jersey 5-10 years ago you would know them, he used to be real big but now hes real small.
In all honesty Deas I've probably got as much seat time on a dozer as you've put in on a poor month I appreciate your stories and honesty. I guess I'm a little corn sensitive as I've had to endure how much better Cats were for what seems like forever, it's pointless now as a brand war since IH in it's parent form hasn't been around for over 20 yrs. I got a bit excited when I started reading some positive accounts on how they were a good machine. I think the cost to purchase and maybe there bad rap is maybe one of their best things now. As you already know I'm over on redpower mostly but I'll leave you with a link on rockwork, a bit of a dig on Cat although I believe the authour isn't intentionally portaying it that way and some humour to boot. http://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=15881&view=findpost&p=151069
I think I posted elsewhere here that the International brand lived on as Dresser, than Komatsu-Dresser, then something similiar, and it now is to be known as "Dressta." They have formed a North American corporation and are seeking dealers. I spoke with a chap from Arnold Machinery today whom says that Arnold is getting involved with them. Arnold used to handle Internationals and Dressers.
Surfer, I thought the Komatsu dealer was the Dressta dealer?
I don't know how much involvement Ustamok still has in this. Some dealers moved away handling their product after the Dresser deal fell apart. From what I see now, it looks like Dressta wants any dealer it can get that is big enough to sell and service the product. I'll post more as I hear it.
Honesty Vs one-eyed-ness. Hi, Hardtail. I may be a dyed-in-the-wool Cat man but not to the extent that I can't recognise good points in other makes. To date, the only IH machines I have run have been, in order of running, a BTD20 with a Rolls Royce diesel, a TD25C, a TD25B, another TD25c and a TD9. I enjoyed running them all. All had good balance, handling and visibility and plenty of grunt. They didn't put their grunt on the ground like the (roughly) equivalent Cats but they did have more of it to try to put on the ground too. It was easier to spin the tracks with any of the IH machines than their Cat counterparts. As mentioned earlier, the second TD25C was working a lot alongside a 270 hp Cat D8H and the 25 blew two final drives in about 5,000 hours, largely due, I suspect, to not being able to cope with the shock loads of ripping and dozing hard rock. The BTD20 was a stick-shift with a hydraulic blade. Most of the work that I did with it was either sub-division-related or mixing and stock-piling bush gravels for special specifications, most commonly for Department of Aviation specs for airports. The first TD25C was in an iron ore mine and was supposed to be working the 'fines' stockpile, spreading the crushed ore out from the conveyor head. This was the one that had the 'strange' noise that caused the removal and stripping of the torque converter and 'tranny'. I got to run it for a whole 1/2 hour to warm it up to see if the noise had been cured after the transmission had been put back in. The noise hadn't been cured and, by the time it had been cured, the mine management had decided that the TD25C was not a viable proposition and put one of their own D9G's on the fines stockpile. I never got run that TD25C again. Find a new job. That one had lasted a whole week. LOL. The TD25B was working on a pipeline project in city streets and through parks, etc.. I used it a couple of times for short periods to back fill trenches and clean up in a couple of parks. The TD9 belongs to a collector near where I live and I have run it on 3 separate occasions now, twice doing small landscaping jobs around his yard and once recently at a vintage machinery field weekend. It has a LOT of slack in the hydraulic blade lift mechanism and a heavy logging winch on the back end. This causes it to rear up severely under load when pushing. In this respect, I definitely prefer the Cat D4 blade lift system as it doesn't do this to anywhere near the same extent. The Cat system is also easier to climb over to get into the seat than the TD9 set-up. Otherwise, I found this little jigger to be very user-friendly and actually quite likeable. I can see some of why KoO likes them so much. I had a look at the thread on that link. Interesting. Pity the photos have been deleted. I could be wrong but I suspect that Wek's chronological order of the model production is a little flawed. I have been told that the TC12 was the first dozer that Euclid made, even before the C6. Catchyalater.
Deas Plant, well you got more 25 experience than I, have just run a nice tidy 24 that one of my buddies has as far as the panetaries go, I'm still biding my time......LOL. The B's seem to go reasonable up here when they come up for sale, a 20 B or C would suffice too though. Interesting when I was checking out the 25 at the sale an oldtimer (I best watch my tongue) as everyday I'm getting closer was commenting about snapping his crank in his 17A and thought he got off quite reasonably acquiring a good shaft for 3K and a fella installing it for 2, which would an hour later be a thousand more than the 25 sold for:beatsme I believe you are correct on the TC12, funny most seem to forget about them now as when the D9 came out in 55ish was deemed the biggest but these would have been much larger. Must have been the low production #'s and the fact you had to break em in 2 to transport they were never mainstream? I think you either love the greenies or don't have much use for em of course you probably can't hear any of the criticism
One that's for sale in Norway
Td25's quite a strong tractor I have owned both the Cat d8h and the Td25c& g which we still use in oilfields till this day.The Td 25c will make short work of the d8 and it will still give the 8r a run for its money.The Td 25g is in the same league as the 9's,and as far as reliability is concerned take a back seat to no one.The 25c I own has 35000 machine hrs and still on original finals,yes the 817 engine is expensive to rebuild but most parts are still available other than .030 undersize crank bearings.The black smoke you talk about could very well be the nature of the beast as these engines did always run with a dark haze out of the exhaust and ours seemed to pull as good a fuel economy as the 342 cats!I would not be scared of this machine if its in any kind of shape.I am very familiar with the cat line having operated cats from d3 to d11 and also Komatsu's,Fiat Allis,IHC,John Deere,Case,and now Dressta. Steve
In my operators manual for td25 it states if machine sits continuous for six months to prime the turbocharger.