I'm starting a terrace project on my farm in the next week two and since I haven't done one before I'd like any advice you can give. There are three narrow base type terraces spaced up the hill. I stripped a small area yeasterday just to see what the conditions are like...just 2-3" of soil over gummy yellow clay. To start with, what's the best direction to push the topsoil (what little there is)....above, below, or to the side? There isn't any cut on the upper side of the terrace so I don't think there's any reason to disturb the ground there. As I said I'm just learning here, so any advice will be greatly appreciated.
I think you want to split the topsoil down the center of where the terrace is going to be. Push the topsoil above and below it from the center. If you don't do this, it won't be easy to push the topsoil back on both sides of the terrace after it's finished.
It's also more economical/efficient to make short pushes with the dozer in both directions rather then longer pushes in one direction. Just because of the nature of dozer straight blades or semi-u.
top soil Start with the top terrace, Push the first 50 feet of top soil off to below the second terrace . Then push up 50 feet of the top terrace. Push the top soil from the next fifty feet of the top terrace to cover up where you just built the terrace. Build fifty more feet of terrace. Push fifty more feet of top soil where you just built the terrace and keep just doing fifty feet at a time. This way you are only moving the top soil once. When you get to the end, start the next terrace at the same end that you finished the top terrace. Just move the top soil from the next terrace to the end of the top terrace you just finished. Build the second terrace the same way you did the top terrace. When finished with the second terrace use the top soil from the top terrace. Except for 50 feet you only moved top soil once.
Hi D6c10K Can't sleep tonite ...too wired about getting 1st crop hay made this week and finishing bean planting and spraying. Trying to get 2 months work done in 1 week cause of all the rain here in S. E. Iowa. What a challenge and its the third year in a row for us being wet. We are about a week ahead of last year on the hay though. Could be worse I could live another 20 miles south and not have any beans planted. Sorry I ramble so may have to do multiple posts so the system doesn't erase me. On to your issue. Hopefully Construct'O will chime in as I know he builds quite a few narrow base in S.W. Iowa on steeper slopes. I've built a few of these when I worked for a local contractor and I really don't enjoy building or farming them. I'd sure like to talk you into a steep front farmable back terrace that you can get on to mow, farm, plow up and maintain but I don't know what kind of slopes your working with and that toe could get pretty far down the hill. Local NRCS calls them reverse backslope and I think they are easy to build, economical, and don't require much more fill to build. It would be helpful if you could share more info. I'll try not to get too technical. If the NRCS is involved (cost share or low interest loan?) then you have certain rules to follow. What are your slopes like? Where will you be borrowing the dirt? RKO's post has merit if the terraces are uniform in length, Parallel, and not too wide of spacing. Sounds like you don't have much top soil like I'm used to so you won't be moving a lot of "black" dirt and you really only need enough to cove the narrow base to grow good grass anyway. I'll have to keep RKO's technique in mind as I may be able to use it someday. There's always more than one way to skin a cat. Too be continued..... Jeff
NRCS likes to see narrow base terraces built using fill from the back side or down hill side of the terrace. That is the cheapest way since the dirt is close. If this is where you will borrow the dirt then push from the channel down hill far enough to get enough fill to build. Or like RKO's method use what we always called slot stripping. Push top soil making piles perpendicular to terrace in 50 or 60 foot increments then push up the fill and strip another slot piling on where you already borrowed. Continue the slots until terrace is built then push top soil back in one direction and scrape up some to cover terrace. It goes pretty fast. Personally I never cared for building from the back side...I got a cheap terrace and they always looked so big from the back side. In my neck of the woods laying out a terrace with proper channel slope can be a real challenge without screwing up the farmability of the field or making the contours too sharp. So often times at least one end of the terrace if not both had too much channel slope and by borrowing dirt from the ends and out past the ends, the channel slope was reduced therefore slowing down the water. In this case push from the channel up where you will borrow dirt and from the channel down where terrace sits and push it far enough to give youself some room to work cause you'll be building it from the end or ends and need room to shape up the clay. One way or the other I usually, but not always covered the terrace from the back side with topsoil dumping some over onto the front for cover then tried to shape up the front some for asthetics. Some people run them length ways for finish but that can be a challenge if you keep your slopes at 2.5 to1. By now I'm sure I have you comepletely confused and I apologize. I won't get into the technicalities of doing the math to figure the distance to the toes of the fill and how much to strip. I have a feeling you already kinda know what your doing. Have fun. Jeff
J&D, You folks have have gotten more rain than we did in S. central IA. My brother does the farming and he got all planted except about 20 acres of beans...a couple of weeks ago he ended up broadcast seeding them with a 1-bag seeder mounted on the ATV. To get across the field he made up a set of duals for the rear tires...worked pretty well. Finally got 1st cutting hay bailed today...got way past mature. I'll have to read your description a couple of times to make sure I understand it all. I think the NRCS went with narrow base terraces because of the slopes...varies from 3-10% (hilly southern IA). On the design sheet the "channel" cut/fill is zero all along them, so I read that to mean the dirt above is to be left alone. Terraces are spaced about 120' apart. Around here they seem to get the dirt on the lower side, but what I'm afraid that if I do it in 50' strips, the center will get real tall. I'm real green at dozing so I my have bit off too much to learn on....fortunately there are a couple of neighbors that are experienced that can bail me out if I get in too much trouble.
hope this helps I live in Monroe County dont know what county you live in but it sounds like the same conditions we have here. We built 9 of these tereces a couple weekends ago between rains. I treat every terrace different but for the most part I like to build from the front or off the sides at a 45 with the channel. If you are new to terraces it will be hard to build from the back without makeing low spots that hold water. If you work from the front try not to take any dirt within 25 feet etherside of the intake push your topsoil were the terrace goes down stream and put it back were you got it from and I like to push my borrow ether to the middle/upstreem from the intake or split it and push it to the sides. If you are not putting the tile in yourself and you have a fairly flat channel ask ur tile guy to put the tile in 4 feet deep then you can borrow around your intake and keep plenty of fall in the channel and you can always drill holes in the bottom section of the intake. Most countys we deal with dont worry much about channel readings on the check out sheets as long as everything falls to the intake and remember then plans say 2 to 1 minimum that means if you want to cross track them and make them look decent you could widen them to 3 to 1 but you wont get paid for the extra yardage. I would much rather build broad base terracees they look much better and are a lot funner to farm and you dont give up any ground but they arnt always feasable. Good Luck
Here is a link with some pictures of some narrow base terraces i built. It was flat behind the terrace and the riser was in pretty deep so took some from both sides, a little dirt from top side around riser gives you more storage on a big rains.Not the best to do on steepsloped ground makes it wash in faster around the riser.Just remember thay all fill in and need clean even now and then to keep them working like they should. On flat ground it sometimes is a most because trying to get all from the backside is hard because no slope in the ground to back down and pushup the terrace without cutting to deep.So that is why you cut on the topside where the riser is since it will drain! With the terraces you have 3 to 10 percent slope ,you should be able to bulid most of them from behind,except maybe the 3 percent slope one if is flat behind the terrace. If i take from the top side i sometime do a horseshoe push of the blackdirt back above the riser,depending how much dirt i need.At times also push off to the side in 50ft interval get what i need. Then finishup from the backside. If NRCS staked you project,they usual here anyway flag the terrace every 50ft.Using that makes it easy to build from the backside and get your accurate terrace height.Set up your laser or transit shoot off the hub and check your terrace ridge as you go.After a few thousand feet you can go farther in between shoots.Finish as you go because if you strip you topsoil side ways the piles will be in you road after the first 50ft. I would build you terrace from behind starting left to right or which ever works best for you.I also like to start on one end and work to the middle then go to the other end and work back to the middle seems like that way the high fill in the middle it easier to get enough dirt because you can push at a 45 degree angle for the big fill in the middle.Plus easier to keep the terrace starighter or in line with the flag as they are laid out,curve or etc. You can hog dirt in from the back at an angle if more dirt is out to the side,but when finishing out the top of the ridge just need to go straight up the back of the terrace drop of fine dirt to make a uniform terrace.Pat it down an hopefully you will get a uniform top.Not foot high humps and bumps. Anyway strip topsoil sideways every 50ft then turn machine and pushup ridge from behind.At the ends you will usual not have to back down a far for dirt ridges here at ends a usual just 1.5 above channel at the ends.As you get closer to the middle you will have to back down the hill farther because there is where the high fill is. Good luck with your project, gets easier with time first one are always trying.Other trips of building them to get them to look straight and uniform.You are main working blind when building from behind. Trick stop go down to the end and look down along the front edge and see how your doing.If you got it looking like a snake go topside and run the loose dirt down the channel the where you going to do your next 50 ft. turn it into your ridge and then back down back down behind and start you next 50 ft. If your ground doesn't have much top soil save what you have then when you get to place where it is deeper trying save extra at that spoilpile then when you spred it out when terrace is done carry some of the extra over on the thinner aera.You would be suprised how it will look when done.Takes extra time ,but it's you farm and machine so spend a little extra time and you will be glad you did.Good luck! p.s keep track of where the riser is don't cover it up from big clods rolling down on top of it .Since you are working blind:Banghead:usa
Thanks for the advice, Here's a pic from the bottom of the main waterway... lots of slope. (second tile line is over hill to left) The tracks in the foreground are from where I dozed out silt at the base of the hill. Took out 2-3 ft of black dirt and stock piled it so I can put it back up the hill when I'm done. (I'll have to borrow/rent a small scraper for that) The tiler got moved in yesterday just in time for the 4" of rain were supposed to get tomorrow. He just got a GPS installed on the wheel tiler...think the rep. is going to be around to help out with it. I was delayed two weeks getting him here because I was waiting on signatures from the neighbor to allow the 2nd tile line to cross about 250' of his property (waterway cuts across the corner of neighbors property) If he hadn't aproved it I would have had to end the tile at the fence and install a bubbler to run it out on the surface. Wouldn't be the best solution.
Construct'O It's funny how things are done and we don't live that far apart. Not many terraces are being built here. In Eastern Nebr. the cost share rate is so low you can not do terrace work and make a living. The few contractors that do terrace work have a constructive arrangement work out. I do about one terrace job a year beside the terraces on my own ground. In this area you have to compact the terrace to about 90 LBS per foot compaction. They want you to compact every 12 inches of lift at the min. by running a heavy wheel tractor or loader on the terrace. I run my 4 wheel drive tractor on the terrace with a loaded pull scraper. The Quad tractor will not compact good enough. Do you have a compaction rate? and how do you compact? Most of the terraces that are being built are narrow base storage terraces. We can not use drain pipe like you use. We have to use PIP pipe (PVC pipe) for the drain and it must be put in with an excavator. Many of the first drains put in with trenchers failed because the trench is hard to back fill with our dirt. The water will follow the trench and wash the dirt into the terrace, filling it up. All so if the terrace did not fail the farmer had a bad trench to deal with all year. Enough rain or wrong conditions I have seen terraces blow out, even with the terrace being cored out. What few terraces are being built in this area are done with a motor grader, pull scraper and excavator. Install and compact pipe/drains with excavator. Cut the channel with the motor grader. Move 50 feet topsoil with scraper. Pull dirt for terrace up with excavator, compacting with pull scraper. Do 50 more feet. Finish terrace with grader. Most cuts on the top side is about .5 foot (6 inches), that gives the water an old compacted channel to run in. Any more that that the upper side gets steep. That is just a Short version
Construct'O What is the cost share rate in SW Iowa? For storage and non storage narrow base terraces?
RKO, No compaction requirement on anything I've read...just a 10% overfill for settling...no doubt the soil types are different in your area...and different NRCS offices seem to have different standards. This a "summer work" project that isn't actually a cost share. It pays a flat rate per linear ft. of terrace and tile, plus they pay something like $190/acre to take the ground out of production.
one thing to remember core those tile risers clear down to the pipe or it will all be laying in a heap at the bottom of the hill after the first big rain. If you have the cut sheet from the nrcs you can build bumps with just a hand level from your tractor by checking every station (50'). Your eye will match it in between. Carry a 5' graduated stick with you for this. Denny had some great advise. He is an old hand at this. Where are you located? good luck.. dave
What is your rate per foot? There use to be a summer program but it just a joke now. Compaction is a big factor in this area. They had several terraces blow and wash out roads, buildings and other things. So they are a little jumpy on compaction. Never had a terrace blow, I guess lucky?? Almost drowned in a terrace once. The riser pipe plugged during a rain. I decided to go unplug it. The riser unplugged and sucked me against the riser plugging it with my body. It kept raining and the water rose. I could not get away from the riser. Finally Hired help saw me and punched a hole in the terrace with a loader to let the water out. Never will do that again.
compaction there won't be much compaction in a narrow base terrace.
They want them compacted and over built. Then cut the terrace back to spec's The Quad tractor will not pack enough. I have to use the four wheel drive with loaded scraper on small lifts to get the compaction they want. With the 4 wheel drive you will be suprize on the compaction you get. The way they check is take a tile spade and stand on it. if it goes in over 4 inches it does not pass. Great Government standards???
No narrow base terrace, which is simply a bump pushed up from one side and it is as steep as the dirt will fall on the front slope, will have much compaction at all except for the toe area of the backslope where the cat works. Just the way it is built. A compacted terrace is not even wanted here, water infiltration is a must and compaction ruins that.
If a terrace was built that way in this area it would not last at all. If water infiltrates a terrace here the terrace will blow out, just the way the dirt is. The clay dirt if it gets wet will just turn to muck and slid way. Infiltration of water into the terrace is the last thing we want. Your narrow base terraces much be smaller than around here. Narrow base terraces are only used for non storage around here.
I don't know much about soils, but what we have is very fine grain yellow clay, not like the sandy soils that are further north. Looks like you could take it as is and make pottery from it. Around here if you're building a house, and do a perk test for the sewage system they almost always fail...water just won't drain down through the clay.
well all I can tell you is there are probably hundreds of miles of them here and they work better than any other system that has been tried so far. It helps that the farmer now stays completely off of the terrace fill with his iron and the grass seeding soaks up water like a big wick. Easy to build, easy to maintain. Some guys have used a big hoe to simply dump dirt in a heap, then polish the ridges off with a cat. I don't like this idea, voids cannot be smeared out of the fill at all, but they are getting away with it. Most of these narrow base terraces that are level and not tiled drained in my area are built to about a 4.5' ridge height, supposed to be 2.5 slope but I don't see anyone making them that flat. We have very deep soil, very little rock, some hills are 100' of yellow clay. Just the way it is here.
The tiling contractor finally got done this week. Don't think I'd care to tile for a living...having to deal with mud all the time. Right off they stuck the wheel tiler where it will outlet just above the pond. Winched it out, then dove off in the same hole their backhoe/loader and buried it half way up the radiator. Finally got moving and about 50yds along began hitting rocks. The machine had a quick disconnect to unhook the wheel from the "shoe"... unhook, pull forward, dig out rock, back up and hook up. They did it four times in about 10 yards. I roughed in the 100' of terraces yesterday. Pushed topsoil off to side and pushed up clay for terrace. I'm sure I'm taking 5 times as long and someone who knows what their doing. The plan calls for a 3' top and max 2:1 slopes front & back with 10% overfill for strinkage. Do you normally just push them up and track the sides and not worry about getting the top flattened off? What do you use to check height and slopes?....laser level etc? Do you do any additional staking to guide your work?....Like toe stakes or grade lath? Until I get these more polished up I'm not going to post pics....not too pretty at the moment. Rained today so can't work on them for a day or two.
In my area the dirt varies alot also.You have black dirt, gray clay,blue, then there's that stuff we call tiger sh!% When you working it, you can have slabs as wide as the dozer blade and couple feet taller to try and shape into a narrow base terrace that is suppose to be 2:1 slope. But they usually will be flatter on the backside then the front side next to the tile riser,because you are coming up the backside and just dropping the dirt off the blade.Closer to a 2 1/2 to a 3:1 on th backslope and 1:1 on the front side when all said and done.If you have a lot of voids in the front slope you can take a little from the top side into the voids.All this takes time to make a well constructed terrace that will be uniform and stand up to large rains. When i'm working the tiger clay basicly just try to built the base of the terrace with the big slabs then as you get closer to the top you need to take smaller blade cuts and longer cuts to produce small chunks because if not you have large slabs to deal with trying to build an even ridge. Your last pass to the top of the ridge try to leave a little black dirt or crumbly clay at the back of your cut and try to carry it up to the top of the ridge to finish off the ridge.This is the hardest part,it take extra passes,but sometime your spot on(grade) and you can move on.If it take a few extra passes,it's not a complete waste because each time you go up the backslope your pacting it in! As far a coring out the tile lines you need to be careful and know your tiling mans trencher depth.Tile put in here for a terrace system is 5 to 6' depth.So if you core trenchers you can core 2 to 3' deep without worrying about crashing the tile. As far as tile line washing out it has to do with how dry the dirt is more then wet.I have had to actually water down the tile trenches throught he terracees to get them to settle before we built them.Usual have enough moisture in the dirt to pact or will rain enough that they settle before we build them.But usual core anyway unless like tile was put in spring and i'm build terrace in the fall. As far as compacting here you are usuing the dozer tracks as you are bringing up the backslope in stages,i usualy try to track in the back slope as i finish a section and move on to the next section. Unless your building a graded terrace you not going to be using a scraper for compaction on a narrow base terrace with a 2:1 backslope and three foot top at the ridge when on grade 6 to 12' tall .If you was talking graded terrace scraper would be okay. Actually around Council Bluffs and Glenwood Iowa you use to see a lot of guys building terrace with a track loader, with a converted dozerblade on the loader instead of a bucket.The terrace are so tall and steep that loader work better because they could actual lay the blade down at the top of the ridge to get the dirt to fall off.Your taking 12' backslopes plus!!!!!!!!!!! working on ground with 12 to 20 percent slope. As far as the tall backslope because of the dirt all coming from the backside.It is a bonus on steep sloped ground because you are making the slope of the ground on the backside of the terrace flatter. Main thing is get the terraces seeded both side.The sooner the better.Seed as you build.Even if it is dry or not or late in the year.The seed gets into your dozer tracks and it will grow because when it rains the loose dirt covers up the seed that falls in the groser tracks.Brome works best in this area.Anything but weed seed ,nothing looks worst the weedy terraces.:usa
Yeah tiling isn't always as simple as you would think.Have had a few of the same issues before. To answer a few of your question you posted in between me(slow on my part)?As far as the 3' top you will have it it will just be part of the backslope.Just measure from the front edge of your ridge down the backslope 3'.Usually they want the ridge height measurement to be taking in the middle of the 3' top(1 1/2'). To help keep things in line,scratch on the ground with your dozerblade corner a line to help go by.The toe of the terrace will aways have some curve in it compared to the ridge .More fill the farther out the toe will be even if you used a 2:1 slope the whole terrace,because the fills on the ends will will be less.Say ends 2' fill 2:1 equals 4' from ridge to toe. Usual you will be flatter,just the ways it works,dirt (mud).If you have a 6' fill 12' to toe.Main thing is try to keep the front edge as straight as possible along the tile riser so you have straight corn rows along the terrace.The taller the terrace ridge the harder to keep everything coming straight. I use a laser here!!!! and shot off the hub.Just use the rod to measue the front slope and the backslope.On you terrace checkout note they should have constructed ridge info with the distance for the toe.If built with a good uniform backslope you will usualy have the toe distances farther. You can't just push the dirt up into the channel and let it fall off the blade and call it good you need to make some kind of slope out of the backslope at least to get a terrace that will pass and compacted. If you wanted to you could set some lathes with a ridge grade maked on them,but won't be excact because they will be in you road trying to build the ridge up to right height.Just something to give you an ideal. You will just have to take a shot with the laser at the station marked on you checkout sheet.It will have orginal ground shots to the left of the sheet,contructed ridge,Cut and fills to the right of that then the you will have to put your finished terrace shoots to the right of that.Then at the bottom you will have to do a cross section at one of the station for your checkout. Where's the pictures of the tiling issues???????Good luck:usa
denny.. I would like to see some pics of all you have been up to!! I have played in the tiger excrement too. Challenging comes to mind..
Ok, I've got good and started...probably moving the dirt 3 times as much as someone who knows what their doing. The clay is about like cookie dough and sticks to the blade pretty bad...part of the time I have to drop it at the base of the terrace and then pick it up again and push it up. Don't know if it was good or bad, but the topsoil that would be under the terrace I pushed up hill. Kind of makes a mess but I need all the black dirt I can get higher up. Got about the first 150' up to height...width it still a little fat. Supposed to have a 3' min top. I haven't spread any black dirt in the finished area 'cause I may have to mess with it some more. I'm getting down toward the intake and it's getting taller or course. (Fill from the intake flowline is about 7') My question is, where do you get enough dirt in the intake area? Do you just get it all directly downhill or do you move some in from each side? (The area where I need the most dirt is the low area of the waterway) My other question is, when I get down to the 2nd terrace line there is a lot more black dirt, especially in the waterway area. Do you end up building the terrace partly with black dirt? Beside some of the waterways the tile trench was black dirt all the way to the bottom.
7' fill at the riser you must have some serious drainage above the terrace yet.How far down is the terrace from the top of the drainage area?Usual the tall terraces are on steeper ground then what your picture shows.Make sure your building the right terrace on you project plan,and not one on down the hill,by mistake. Don't worry so much of the 3' top,because you will have it in that it is actually part of the backslope.Jut make sure when you take your ridge shot that you meaasure off the front of the ridge 1 1/2 ft and take you shot there.That is where you need to have you constructed ridge high.That is why they use the 3' ft top thing.Because if the ridges edge settles the ridge will still be on grade. With a 7' fill at the riser,and flater below it i would probably try to get( rob) part of the dirt from the top side at least 50' on each side of the riser.Have to be carefull around the riser cutting and keeping it steep on the front slope.Working close to the riser and trying to keep it steep is tuff(don't drip chunks on the plastic Hickenbottom risers they don't take it very good) Yes for the big fill at the center of the terrace you need to try and bring dirt in from the sides,since you saying it is flatter behind in the waterway.It's not that easy like people think,especially when you get into the tall ridge highs. As far as the gumming clay sticking your doing what you need to do with it by dropping it off at the toe and carrying it up the backslope to top off the ridge and form the backslope as you go.This isn't needed so much as you getting the base or bottom of the terrace built, more as you getting to the top of the ridge. When you get down to the second terrace with more black dirt you might want to save some extra black dirt for filling ditches above the terrace and if thinner ground have some to spread in that area. You don't have to spread the topsoil as you go it is better to wait until your done in cause you need a little extra dirt for the ridge.Exception rain!!!!!!!!Also yes you will probable use black dirt in parts of the terrace because of the amount of it in the ground.You have to get dirt some where so you have to use what you have. Your picture is a little hard to see everything.Like you said you pretty fat on the backslope ,but they tend to get that way when it is wet sticky material.To help the alinment at the base of the terrace backside or front you can run along the edge of the terrace length wise and straight up the edge some before spreading the top soil.More for looks,but helps staight thing up alittle .Don't get to carried away or you will have a big dropoff at the toe. Easier when it's a little drying ,but not to dry,need the compaction you know :usa
Your doing just fine K6c10K We appreciate the photos. I"m meticulous & always had to remind myself its just dirt....But it's also somebodys farm & your leaving your mark on it for a lot of years for somebody to try to farm. So keep the farmer in mind when building especially near the transition area where the terrace starts. Your last question first...yes in my area we can build with black dirt & get good compaction to pond water. I never like to cover topsoil cause it's an extremely slow renewable resourse but usually never strip more than 18" deep. You can always use topsoil somewhere or just spread it out on thinner soil areas. Don't forget to core (V it out) that tile trench crossways like Olddirt said & pack good packable material ( clay preferably) back in especially since your dealing with a lot of blaack dirt near tile line. Don't crush the tile though. Tracks off when closer than 2' & try to core within 1 or 1.5' using a tile probe of some sort to check both blade corners. A 7' fill is big. There must be more water coming into this thing than the photo shows. It appears to be your top terrace & your slopes don't look that bad. Maybe the intake is too far down hill or perhaps the government is trying to get more bang for their cost share buck by covering more acres per terrace. We usually try to keep our max fill hts. at 3.5 to 4.5 ft. and put the top intake wherever the ditch starts or higher although there are always exceptions. Yes you most definitly want to move dirt in from the sides to fill the largest fill area in front of the intake. Your objective is to use any hill or knob close by for construction... whether it be above or below the terrace. In essence your leveling your farm somewhat at the same time. With more experience it becomes more obvious where to get dirt and how much to strip off. Your first photo & satellite map made it difficult to tell your slopes especially with the growing vegetation. I should have commented sooner when I saw your terraces were laid out straight rather than contoured or " on grade ". On grade meaning a minimum channel slope into the intake of......I forget....1 or 2%...what ever the NRCS likes. Terraces laid out straight are most often more " farmer friendly " but not always best for erosion control. A contour terrace only gives you too options for borrowing dirt. 1. A consistent amount all along the front side of the terrace which is frowned upon as it increases slopes into the intake. 2. The back side of the terrace. A straight terrace like yours usually has steep channel slopes on one or both ends & this after seeing your last photo is where I would concentrate on borring the dirt. I'm not saying your doing anything wrong! You've chosen a different option, but if not too late you could try building the other half of the terrace out of the channel. I don't think it would look too out of balance. Sometimes flatter ground or the top terrace requires borrowing from around the intake but I think I see plenty of slope. Reducing the channel slope , which is where the majority of the water runs should in theory help eliminate the most erosion. Again there are exceptions to just about everything. For instance due to the topography of the field a straight terrace may have a " block " at one end to obtain enough height to pool the incoming water....in this case you may have nowhere to borrow dirt on that particular end of the terrace at least obove the terrace...perhaps below. I don't think I see that scenario in your particular case but check your papers for blocks. Reread SEIacowmans post & give it a try. Take a closer look at Constructo's photos & you'll see where he borrowed on the front side out toward the ends. Just back your dozer up to the intake tilt the blade & draw a line. Drive away from the intake at a 45 degree angle to the channel about 40' and start turning now driving parallel to the channel about 50' from it. Now strip from the channel uphill piling topsoil just past the 50' line. Strip out past the grade stake 30 to 50'...you can always go more later if you see you need more dirt. So now you have what looks like an elongated half of a half moon if that makes sense. Strip the topsoil under the fill down hill. Concentrate on getting most of the dirt out of the channel extending the front slope of the terrace out past the ridge height grade stake & taper up to the 50' line. There is mor dirt out there than you think to borrow but your going to need it for a 7' fill. Borrowing in this area also increases the cubic feet of storage usually. To be continued... Jeff
3' "top" and hints I had the following all typed up once and lost it. I guess I better type faster. Thats frustrating. Its hard for some people to put things into words & with no disrespect intended I think that may be happening with some of Constructo's comments. I on the other hand am too thorough. Our slang term for this style terrace is pyramids. So make it look like a pyramid with a point at the top. Keep it tight . Thats 5-6000 per acre ground I reckon so don't bury too many acres under the fill by having your slopes too gentle. Again look at Constructo's photos. We always overbuilt the narrowbase terrace 1' to cover all settlement issues and allowed for the 3 "top". Some government engineer somewhere determined that a 3' horizontal cross section was required to be strong enough to hold back the lateral hydraulic pressure from the average pool associated with this style terrace. By over building 1' with 2 to 1 slopes on both the front & back sides by my math should give you a 4' cross section at the designated ridge height. Its just too weak at the top of the pyramid to hold back water. I think you'll find it hard to maintain an actual 3' top throughout the construction process without getting too many yards into a sprawled out fill. Every contractor and operator is a little different in their technique. I actually find it easier to build these terraces from the ends & front side. I usually NEVER put my dozer ON the front side of the fill. I did virtually all packing from the end & the backside and to my knowledge never had one blow out. I usually cheated & stacked the clay tight to the riser & channel as steep as it would stand there & after black dirt, weather, & settle they look good. When building the tallest part of the fill...say3-4' and up push a large load into the end adjusting left to right to make the front slope look just right & uniform. Don't worry about the back fro now. You can see the ridge ht. and straight down the fill better so push your load to the 1' overbuild ht. every time. Just as the dirt in the center of the blade reaches 1' overbuild ht. push hard into & down with blade into the fill. this helps with compaction & takes out voids & breaks the sticky $h!+ loose from your blade. Then back away & get more. Build 50' or whatever your comfortable with then go to the back side & shape & pack some. Don't do a lot ... scrape up your "boulders" & put them where you need them..."kick" it up in places drag it down in others if your too "full" and push it along the toe where you need it. Rough it in within 6" or better then get fancy later with the easier to work with black dirt. I always covered from the backside with black dirt and took plenty to cover and push over to the front. Experience helps knowing how much you have in front of you going over for consistency. Check the front once in a while & go around & corner, drag ,fill or whatever for asthetics. I always put tracks on the entire back side for seeding, asthetics, and compaction. Keep in mind I usually had a time factor to be concerned about. It rained again today and I had too much time on my hands sorry for the long posts. I'm just trying to help without creating information overload. I'm guessing you got some rain too hope everything was left so it would drain on your jobsite. I've got some more associated comments I may make at a later time. Jeff
Thanks for the comments...going to be a couple of days at least before I can get back to work. Rained twice yesterday and all night....probably about 4" total in 2 days.
I think part of the reason I've got such a tall terrace is this....lazy NRCS tech. I'll explain...I'd been after him to come out and stake the job for 2-3 weeks and my start date was coming up. (It was too hot for him to come out, or other excuses) He went out once and didn't do anyting because he was having trouble getting it laid out parallel with the fence (working by himself). I finally went in and asked what the offests were from the fence...he scaled an aerial that was about 4" square and gave me aprox. numbers that could be adjusted later. I borrowed the GPS from work and laid out parallel lines so he wouldn't have to pull a tape very far to put them exatcly where he wanted them. I knew what would happen...as soon as he saw the lines I'd laid out he said "looks good" and used them as is. Like I said...lazy..everytime I call the office he's sitting at his desk in the air conditioning. The terraces would likely be much lower if they were up the hill a bit but it's too late now.
Usually here they lay out the terrace channel and where the intakes goes before we even lay the tile.Where did you know to put the intakes if he didn't have the terraces laid out before you tiled? Here our NRCS techs are good to work with. Did he just eyeball it,set flags for intake and said put it here?The top terrace is usually not over 150' down from the top of the ridge,unless it's a flat slope then think 250' is the farthest they actually are supose to go.Then the next one will be 120' or 150' to the most.120'on ground with 5% or higher slope. By the way hope you had things smoothed up before you 4" of rain .Good luck if not.:usa
The channel was put just where I laid out lines with the GPS and tile & intakes run according to them. The top terrace is probably less than 200' from top of hill so maybe it's not too terribly low on the slope. Spacing is 120' between the 3 terrace lines. Talked with my brother about what spacing to use to fit his equipment...he wasn't too concerned about it because it never works out just right whatever width you use. Ended up with 2 3/4" rain in last couple of days...tried to leave the ground so it wouldn't pool anywhere so it shouldn't be too bad.
I have had it up to my eyeballs with our lazy nrcs office I have been on them to lay out my summer construction prodject since the first of june they told me I couldnt start until june 15 and not to worry. I reminded them that they would have to survey desine and flag before I could start they still were not in a hurry. I have called them once a week since the first of june and they kept telling me next week, so last Monday I called the state office and they were here the next day but they forgot the transit in the office so we drove around and looked at it. Still no survey no flags no plans and I am out of patients. I told the guy at the state office they need to rename them to winter prodjects.
Cowman, Man, I thought my guy was dragging his feet! ...I'd be PO'd if I was still waiting to get it staked out. My brother had it right when he said that mostly the NRCS employess are just comsumers of paychecks. All the rain were getting is about to drive me nuts...I only get a couple of hours at a time to work on it. Got chased off by thuderstorms again last evening...still raining this morning.
you must remember who they are working for..and that they are not paid to do a good job.
terrace progress.... Took a couple of pics of the 2 terrace lines I've got done (one more to go) I'm sure anyone who knows what they're doing would think I'm going to wear the dirt out pushing it around. I've been trying to save as much black dirt as I can and that takes more time. Started the bottom terrace today and it looks like it's going to be hard to find enough dirt to build it. Hills are fairly steep sided with the slope running perpendicular to the terrace. I could get dirt from the lower part, but of course that's all the best black dirt. Couldn't bring myself to use all the black stuff so I started moving clay off the top of a knob hill about 200 ft away. There's only an inch or two of topsoil on the hill so not much of any stripping. Wish I had a scraper...that would make quick work of it. I'm sure nobody trying to make money would do this, but it's my own place so I'm willing to do some extra work. In the last pic I was changing the oil the other evening and my tomcat decided to supervise...
I'm impressed. A few variations in soil colors on that lower fill kinda reminds me of home. Don't forget that seeding. Bet its been a challenge with all the rain until the last week. I commend anyone who does any type of conservation work. Again, nice work and thanks for the photos. Jeff
Here is a few pictures of some terrace i worked on this week.Taking after 3 inch rain.:usa
Have reread all the comments w/interest and would humbly weigh into the discussion. Construction methods vary from contractor to contractor and area to area. IMHO some basic rules to follow are: respect the terrace centerline-strip the topsoil uphill and downhill from the centerline; we always strip all the topsoil(taking into account the depth of the tile in the WW and allowing for some places w/very little topsoil in SE IA-sad, but true); excess topsoil can always be spread into borrow areas or uphill on the eroded slopes; avoid building terraces out of topsoil-it's bad practice and leads to failures-use clay borrow and spread the topsoil back on top; terraces are like children-they are ALL different!; borrowing in the storage area is generally not the 1st option as it increases the slope into the intake; build every terrace as if it were your own on your own land. Some other comments-we basically get along good w/the NRCS here-as noted in other comments they are gov't employees who are limited by their rules and their computor program! (think Obamacare!) We are building almost exclusively grassfront/farmable backslope basins in our area of SE IA-I'm really impressed with the photos of the narrowbase contour terraces-we just don't see as many situations like that here. We've found that a 120' spacing works well-gives short fill heights and fits a variety of planter sizes. We're building this style of basin on slopes up to 6 or 7%. We've built some NB basins on steeper slopes. Recently we've had such weird, wet weather that we've been doing a lot of work in prevent plant fields. I hate to complain, but this is the 4th wet year in a row. Also, we are doing most of our work w/o cost share-we may have NRCS technical assistance or we count planter splits and stake ourselves. A tiler in our area has a good mapping software program and we also use his contour lines and tile calculations. Have very much appreciated all the comments and techniques-we must keep in mind the end goal-save the topsoil!
Hey guys I'd like to throw my hat in the ring on this discussion a little, I've never heard the tiger comment before, I tile and also move dirt we have what we refer to as whale snot when tiling, the wet slimy snotty looking stuff that sticks to anything and will bury every machine you get near it. Also I'd like to trade nrcs techs with you, if thats all the longer you have to wait I'd died and gone to heaven, try years before any action is done and then another year to year and a half before action gets done and like this spring we did an approved waterway and [she] was supposed to come out and have it laid out for spring because she missed the fall window of oppertunity by say three months or more. We started trurning tracks this march and she showed up to do layout work around april 20th, not bad the farmer wanted to start planting on april 15th and then we waited another 10 days to get permission to lower the center of the waterway by 12 inches because she flagged it so that the cut to be taken was 12 iches higher than it currently was or add dirt to the center of the waterway to build it up to finished height?? I could go on for days about that office and its personnel but anyway the best comment I was ever told by any of them was as follows, I wrote it down so I didn't forget and tell farmers often, "WE'RE IN THE BUSINESS OF CONSERVING THE SOIL NOT THE PRESERVATION OF TOPSOIL'" and that was in reguards to building terraces on my own farm and I was taking all the topsoil and stockpiling it to be spread out later on top of the ground so I had it to farm and not burying it like they wanted me to do, no demande me to do is more like it. I've built a few of the dump terraces before but never got real excited about them, I like the farmover ones or grass backed myself, do any of you guys use slope boards on your dozers, I've seen one in use before and thought they would be a great add on. The upside is I make a real good living repairing the dump terraces or any of the terraces that are designed by the government. The best one I ever did was the repair on one that [she] designed and someone else built, they hooked up to an existing 4 inch line and put the short terrace in say 250ft and it blew the first year, I was called into fix it, seems the guy that built them doesn't fix, and I was instructed by the landowner to just put it back the way it was, second year the same thing, and the third year the same story, by the fouth year I again told the farmer like I had every year we need to change the system because they are designed wrong, he reluctantly agreed and asked why, now this is good, I told him because the culvert that comes under the road is 24 iches in diameter and drains the entire other side of the road and the 50 acres on the other side and theres no way the 4 inch tile is gonna keep up, and the terrace should have been higher up the hill so the culvert dumped out below the terrace and not into the terrace and to make matters worse she designed the centers tops 12 inches lower than the outer ends channels so they always blew in the center, imagine that. Loved the discussion on the differnet ways to build terraces and how to go about them, I guess I've done it several ways too but never the push sideways yet, I've seen it done but we always pushed all the dirt all directions and built the entire terrace out of clay and then pushed all the topsoil back again, now I know it takes longer and you move the dirt further but I also save all the topsoil and shuffle it around to where its needed. I always wanted to try you method but most of my terraces are too short to mess with, I just did one last week that was a whopping 170 ft long and the farmer instructed me to save all his topsoil which again was 5 ft deep in the center and nothing on the ends. I don't know if you saved the topsoil in the centers close to the waterway or not but I always do and move some more clay to replace it, I never cover up topsoil, I figured it did no good under the clay and I wanted it on top of the clay, I've farmed a lot of terraces that the terrace was built out of black dirt and I farmed the clay or they buried the only black dirt and I farmed the clay and rocks that were left and I said I'd never do that ever, I'd refuse to build them before buring black dirt which I have done as well, refuse to build them that is. Do you have any updates of the project since completion, did they stand up to the rains?
Randy88, Maybe my nrcs isn't as slow as I thought....don't know how anything gets done if you have that much trouble. It looks like these are designed over-size if anything, but it can surprise you how much water runs off a piece of ground. I think like you when it comes to black dirt...there precious little to start with so I didn't want to leave it under the terrace or build it from black dirt. I'm not quite done with the last terrace yet. The ground flattend out below it quite a bit so I've had to get clay from a knob hill that had about an inch of soil on it. Ended up borrwing a D4c and small scraper to move the clay about 100 yds. I've got a black dirt stock pile at the bottom of the hill I can recover it with and if I need more I can strip more from the low ground where the black dirt's deep. Kind of fun running the D4 since I've not run one with manual trans/clutches before. It will move more dirt than I expected.
btw..What kind of grass seeding do you like to use on the terraces?... I think I know what you mean about "conserving/preserving" the topsoil...at least on construction sites, the NRCS considers topsoil to be a pollutant. If you bury it it can't wash off and pollute the rivers and streams.
We use a waterway mix with a lot of brome added to it, I like the brome grass the best if we can get it to grow, most terraces around here are a lot taller than some areas, I really don't see much sense to it myself because a lot of dirt movng could be eliminated if bigger tile was installed to carry the water away faster, basically any approved project has too small of tile in it and most all the failulres we go to fix for terraces they are designed for 2 iches of rain spread out over a 24 hour period, not 2 iches in an hour and then a light drizzle for the other 23 hours. I always put in bigger lines than are recommended and if the farmer won't do that I don't do the project. I have no idea how many existing terraces we have leveled off a strip from the bottom to the top and installed a larger line or additional lines and put a second intake beside the original to get the water away faster so they don't blow out,and then repaired the terrace back again afterwards, we've put in a lot of relief wells to relieve the pressure and get water away faster that way and bigger mains or added mains in the hollows to get more water flow there, you name it we've done it. I've already seen where theres 5000 ft of terraces hooked up to a 4 inch main and they wonder why it takes days to weeks for them to drain out and why they top over the terraces and blow them out all in the name of saving a few bucks in tile and construction costs. We try to have the center of the terrace higher and the channel on the outside ends lower so if they do get the gulley washers of 5 inches in 24 hours they spill around the ends and not blow out the terraces, that really seems to help a lot but theres a lot built today that aren't done like this, they still are lower in the center or the end channel is higher than the middle so there no place for the water to go but overtop them. I've even taken the entire terrace and either shoved it uphill or downhill to get them so they drain out instead of overtopping or rebuilt the ends or flattened the channel, whatever it took to get them to work and save the farmer grief and the expense of repairing them all the time. I've been told by the nrcs now eight seperate years we've had the 100 year flood and thats the reason why terraces blew, now thats rediculous a 100 year flood means once in 100 years not 8 out of the 15 years I've been doing this. I'm sorry for ranting about the government but I try to twist guys arms to have them put in larger tile right from the get go to avoid problems later, its the cheapest and simpliest way to eliminate problems, the last terraces we bult on my farm they came out with the recommendations of a 6 inch main and then reducing it down to 5 and going to all the intakes with 4, I told them it wasn't going to happen and made them redo the specs three times and now we have 12 inch reduced to 10 and then 8 and 6 going to all the bottom terraces and the middle ones and 5 to the top ones and reliefs where the 6 meets the 8 or 10, I have pictures during a heavy rain where water was blowing up out of the reliefs over 6 feet in the air and the mains running full bore, none have blown or ever overtopped. I"ve counted now since we built them about 8 years ago now that its been that way over 15 times now with my reliefs blowing water out like that. Do you use a hand level, transit, laser, what to get your readings with, I"ve used all the mentioned and no matter how fancy of laser I use I've still got the hand level in my pocket or in my pickup to compare with, its just a habit I guess, to doubt and double check. I started by using nothing and just eyeballed it for level, back then I did have an excellent nrcs tech and he'd compare using his transit and he told me every time it was good enough to pass his scrutiney but he loaned me my first hand level and showed me how to make a grade rod holder so I could run it alone and did it that way for years. It wasn't until I started tiling did I get a laser and now we have the one with the wireless remote, great toy, but I still carry a hand level. An excellent post for the explanation of terrace building and the different techniques and ways to do it, is there one on the construction of water ways and the many differnet ways to go about doing them, I've learned by trial and error on most all my work to come up with a way to get things to work then go from there to speed the process up. I'd chip on a waterway discussion some as to how to go about calculating slopes and doing them with a laser. You've got the right idea by moving dirt with a scraper, my father in law used to have a scraper just like that one and we used it a lot, wish I had bought it. I'm always shuffling dirt both clay and topsoil to where its needed, the topsoil always ends up at the bottom and the clay remains at the top of the hills. I cringe every time I see topsoil getting buried by someone else or I'm repairing tile and digging into a terrace back and theres four or five feet of black dirt under the clay and the farmers farming the clay and rocks on top, just makes me sick but I see it every day, I've even taken farmers out to their own fields and showed them that as I dug so they understood what I ment and why they have no good dirt to work with. Keep the pictures coming, its easier to see whats going on than to explain it. I had to reread the replies several times to figure out what was explained, the map and pictures helped a lot to understand what was going on. Wish I would have come across this sooner I'd have taken pictures of my last project, we cleared out about 4 acres and tiled it and put a terrace in to keep it from washing so bad on the steep stretch. As for the tiling comment of not wanting to do it, I laughed on that one, I've already got mine in so deep it took three cats to get it out and we kept laying tile the whole way, the job we just did had a spring pumping water and it was covered up with tall grass on the bottom portion and I asked the farmer to show me where the spring was and he told to wander on out there on foot and he was sure I'd find it and he was staying on dry ground and would watch to make sure someone could call 911 in case I was drowning, some days you just gotta love your job, I even asked him if I could drive around with my dozer to knock the tall grass down and he assured me the dozer tracks would lead the resurers to where they might start to look for me, he was basically right, it was wwwweeeetttttt and flowing.
I borrowed a level from work a couple of times to get started (I work for a surveyor) but that's a pain when working alone having to walk over, move the rod, walk back.... I bought a used laser level and that works great...supposed to have an 800' range so you don't have to move much. The receiver came with a magnetic base and has up-down LED arrows so it can be mounted on a machine to level grade (or slope). Haven't tried doing that yet. Got the last terrace done today except for about 100' of guide ridge on one end. Spread topsoil below to get the pile out of the way. I'll have quite a bit of clean-up and spreading topsoil on the hill where I was borrowing clay. Waterway mix with brome sounds good for seeding. Do you normally spread a thin layer of black dirt on the terrace to get seeding started better? I'll have to put a cover crop between the terraces too...maybe just oats if I decide to crop it one more year and then switch to with alfalfa.
IMHO, there should be as small an amount of topsoil on the steep terrace frontslopes(and backslopes in the case of NB terrraces)as will grow grass. Remember we are trying to replace the stripped topsoil in the farmed areas-not construct a terrace out of topsoil. Brome grows in areas with thin topsoil-it's a good choice for you. We sometimes suggest rye for temp seeding for the natural weed suppression characteristics. Great photos of the D4 and scraper!
I wouldn't worry about a thin layer of black dirt to grow grass, I've farmed a lot of terraces that had no black dirt, they burried it all and only clay and rock and if that could grow weeds and an occasional crop the clay will grow grass, I've had the best luck when seeding right after a rain when the ground is muddy and the seed sticks and sinks in, and its nice to have a slight shower in a few days to help it out. When we seed and the ground is dry and hard it seems the next rain it washes off and we have to do it again. I make my kids use a hand seeder and spread the seed that way. I forgot about the rye thng, theres usually some in the waterway mix and we always add some more as well but its perennial rye not annual rye and that seems to always grow right off the bat and give the other stuff time to make it. Oats won't do much this late in the year I'd be tempted to do annual rye and kill it off next spring with roundup if you want cover for winter and to help with errosion. The level you borrowed was it a hand level or a transit, my hand level we used for years we just made a holder for the grade rod or tied it to the intake and did a little math to get our hub height and then walked along the terrace and took shots to the stationary rod by the intake, I made a stick the right height to hold the level on to help steady it and that way it was a constant height and it worked great for years like that. When we graduated to the transit that was a pain because we needed to move the grade rod all the time. The laser spoils you, as one guy told me its a one man surveying crew in one package, and with the receiver attached to the dozer mast it makes life even simplier yet, but I've still got my hand level with me and a grade rod at the intake, habit I guess.
The level I borrowed was a Topcon automatic level (dual axis compensator)...very precise instrument that we use to set bench marks, paving hubs, bridge beams etc. I have an old Dietzgen hand level too that's handy (if not too accurate). I used it to an idea how much cut I was able to make between terraces. I know what you mean about being spoiled with one-man surveying tools...we use a GPS that's linked to the DOT statewide network. No base to set up...just get out of the truck...turn it on and log into the network and you're up and running (usually). We normally get 1 cm horizantol accuracy and about 2 cm vertical. It has it's quirks that can be frustrating, (no cell signal, bad satellite geometry, tree cover..) but it makes things much easier. We whine like little girls when we can't use it and have to set up a total station.
As far as seeding here the sooner you seed it the better.The seed gets into the cat track and if it rains the loose dirt covers the seed and it will come better then after a rain, then seeds planted after a rain because the seed is laying on top of the ground after it settles and the cat track grooves are sealed over. Brome here and this time of year winter wheat mixed in for cover crop on the terraces.It will grow when nothing else will and it will go to seed next year on the back of the teraces. As far as narrow base terraces goes they are for steep slope ground.Farmable terrace fit into this catagery here.Broadbase (farm both side) not more then flat ground to 4% slope,reverse backslope 4 to 6%,anything over that goes to narrow base.Have built on ground over 12% slope, normal for ground west of me. Try building a broadbase farmerable terrace on 6 too 12% slope ground and the backslope will be close too the toe of the next terrace down the hill from the top one. Most will be too steep to be safe to get on with combine.Plus the cost will outway the benefits. As far as saving topsoil stripping side ways about the only way too do it if you have terraces in the range from 500' up to 1000' plus long .Your not going to be pushing it out to the ends with one that distince.250'yeah ! The one picture i posted the middle terrace was over 1500' long(from end too end) with three intakes with no breaks.Here the contour terrace will extend out over the height of the center of the terrace because they are trying to protect the sidehills across the whole field not just the gully or waterway. Tile sizes here vary 10" to 5" no 4" unless there is just one intake on the line no farther then 120' down off the ridge. Usually no more then 2 intake on 5" line, 3 intakes on 6"(6" upto bottom intake the next 2 on 5").Very few reliefs used here if they are they are usually located close to a waterway so if they blow the releif water will be dumping into a grass waterway for protection. I also work in Mo. and there terraces system designs i a comlete different system also, they use a full flow system with intakes all in line and not offset like in Iowa.
ConstructO, how does the in line system in MO work, wouldn't the water just boil up on the next terrace down when the lines start to get full? Do they run multiple lines up to the terraces and each terrace has a separate line? Or do they acutllay put in a major size main and it goes up to the bottom terrace? PLease explain how its done and how they work. Any terrace we've had to go fix that keeps blowing out the lower terrace the first thing we look for is if the intake on the lower terrace is off set or not, most times they aren't offset enough. Around here they were big on putting orfice restrictors in for a few years and I got so upset I told them if you need to put those idiotic things in maybe your outgoing lines wen't big enough to start with, the response, it was a cost saver???? I got called into look at a guys terraces and to figure out why they took up to seven days to drain and was killing the crops out in all the basin areas of every terrace, I spent two days looking for phantom lines to eventually come to the conclusion they put almost 8000 ft of terraces on a single 5 inch clay main for the outgoing line??? I had counted over 30, 6 inch intakes all going into a one 5 inch main, not bad the other side of the hill they had almost 6000 ft of terraces and nearly 20 intakes on a 4 inch clay main and I'm sitting there wondering why they couldn't figure out how come it took so long to get the water out, but the upside was they were about to put in more terraces that fall and hook them up to the same existing lines again?? The thing that totally got me was some of the terraces had two intakes side by side which totally confused me as to why?? I gave up and flat out asked whats going on I've been lookng for an additonal line going to that terrace for the second intake and I can't find it, the response the owner gave me, that was there way of getting the water away faster and to speed up draining that terrace, to put in a second intake.......all on a five inch main.....when theres already 29 others feeding the main already.......I'm really confused on that logic but after that I always asked for a reason why something didn't make sense, because I didn't think I would ever figure out "the reason" on my own. As for reliefs I put them in the waterway below the lowest terrace, usally where theres already a blown tile line and a hole, that seems to be as good a place as any since the pressure was intense enough there already, and that way the water made it to the waterway, the blow outs in the field or between terraces we do those on an as case basis and try to talk the farmer into a larger line up to and through the bottom terrace to help relieve the pressure there but it all depends, putting reliefs on down below can make a real difference as well. But the best one ever on that perticular farm was some of the terraces had six inch lines in some of the terraces and I was looking for a six inch main going out and finally gave up and dug back downhill following the six inch line to where it met the five inch main?? Afterwards I was told the reasoning behind this was to speed up draining the newer terraces because the farmer complained about the length of time it took for his older terraces to drain, you just can't make that up. My question was, so putting more terraces with six inch lines and more intakes would help speed up the draining of all of these by hooking it to the old existing 5 inch main? answer was YES, ok, if you say so, you go with that, I think maybe we need a plan B, more of/and or a larger main. The single greatest approved project I have seen to date is as follows, the farmer had a terrace that kept blowing out and we ran water down it make sure it wasn't plugged and water ran but slower than I thought it should so we started digging to find out why, The intake was six inch and the line going out was six inch, then reduced down to five inch for about 5 ft and then down to 4 inch and then again to 3 inch line and into a 4 inch Y that had been spit lengthwise in half and laid under and over the six inch main and the gap between the 4 inch Y was fitted with cut tree branches and covered with walmart plastic bags to help take up the gap but when they backfilled it crushed the whole contraption and only about two inches of water would flow out this mess and thats why the water didn't flow to capacity and kept blowing out the terrace, not to mention the terraces up above this kept overtopping due to the main at that junction was partially collapsed, we were dilligent about digging it up and didn't destroy it as we dug, I took the farmer to see it for himself and his response was, "and I paid for this and it was approved by them and I've fought it all these years", he just stood there and looked for a long time and then turned around and walked away saying "do it right and take care of it". The single best part of it all was the one that approved the project once told me and I quote "any idiot can tile, it takes brains to do a real job". I wrote that down as well I thought I might forget it over the years.
I do a lot of tile repair when i have time ,but i tell my customers when the other trenchers guys start trenching the tile repair is over until we get time ,except if i'm already there trenching. I have seen almost everything possible done also to coble a tile line.Small mains are a problem ,but here they have learned there lessons and put the right size mains now. Slow draining into here are like you said.They use to take a 4" line cut a 2" hole in it then use a saddle T put over the hole and put an intake on.Theywas always getting plugged fron trash going down 4" steel intakes at the T.Why they every thought 2" hole in 4" line would work is beyond me.Those was the old days,have replace most of the problem one,but still some out there. Tile repair does make busniess tho.I have plenty story also.The blowout holes aren't that ,bad it's the ones that has water running out on top of the ground down on a bottom and no place for the water to go when you hole fills up before you evn get to the tile to repair it.Then trying to find a line that is open and close enough to drain water away so you can work. Seen a lot of stuff,also.Takes time and like i said when the other guys are trenching and you fixing tile lines you know who's making more money.Time to quit and move too putting it in,not repairing it.
As far as the MO. full flow it works like this.Say you have 6 intakes in a waterway.The top three will have a separate line .Starting with usually 8" main to bottom intake,with 8"intake in line.Reduce down to 6" main to next intake inline,with 6" intake.Depending on top riser and drainage you might use 5" or 4" main to top intake,but they will always use a 6" intake with 24/1" holes per ft. for the intake,with basket(cage) on top of the intake.There is more for the dirtwork part,but not time to explain now. Intake is set on a elevation off a hub for the designed cut for the terrace.We actually do the lay off and they design it in the office and do spots checks if they have a concern.Whole new experience.and work. Okay you have the top three intakes in.You start all over again going up to the bottom three intake out of the 6 total.Same thing 8" to 6" too usualy 5" here since it is below the top 3 intake. I have run as many are 4 8" lines side beside each other, on a tile system,and dumping at the same location.Like i said it's a lot different and ususal consists of a lot of 8" tile.Easly have 4 thousand ft. or more of 8" tile per job. You get the idea.Need to get off here.
Construct O, thanks for replies and also the explanation, now I have even more questions, I think I understand how they do it but from your experience does it work and is it better, by the sounds of it at least they have descent amount and size of lines to carry the water away. Now will this prevent the water from boiling up in the terrace below or is the line big enough to handle the water and take it away and its not an issue, from your experience? It sounds like a better way to go but aren't all states given the same set of rules to follow, aren't federal dollars used in the cost share projects and if so do we have a choice as to what system we can go with? If not how do we get this system in Iowa, I'd died and gone to heaven to have multiple lines going to terraces, thats usually what we end up doing afterwards to get them to work properly, I"ve never seen any terrace project designed for anything over 6 inch lines for mains, I figured it was because the cheap tile plows some of these guys are using will only put in 6 inch lines so thats what the offices calculate for otherwise they can't get them in the ground anyhow, but thats just speculation on my part.
Hey guys I thought I might share some of my tiling experirnces with you My boss has a hydramax wheel machine and last weekend I filled in for him on a terrace tile job. There were 8 terraces in the field with one main line it started with 500' of 10'' tile that had a junction with 5'' headed to 2 intakes then went another 800' with 8'' that had 2 more intakes and a 5'' line then y-ed into a 400' 6'' with 2 intakes and a 300' 5'' with 2 intakes the slope was never more than 3% and all the intakes had 3'' or smaller orfices. Would have been a pretty easy 4000' job if it wasn't for the 13 clay tile repairs I had to make and one of them was a 10'' clay that I had never seen before. I also have been on some Mo tiling jobs an they do things way different down there some lines dont use intakes at all just a T and a bee hive at ground level It looks like it would get rid of water fast but wouldnt give the silt a chance to settle out therefore defeating some of the purpose of haveing a terrace at all. I always thought the best terraces were the ones you had to clean out every 15 or 20 years then your are saveing the top soil and you knnow they are working.
SE ia cowman, theres a fine line between letting sedimint settle out and blowing terraces out, these in Iowa anyhow are designed to hold 2 inches of rain over a 24 hour period, not 2 inches in an hour and then a constant drizzle for 23 more hours or 4 inches over night of heavy rains and your done period, the water tops the first one and all the rest are already topping and the overtop water just compounds the next one down and keeps compounding the probelm the whole way down, about 7 years ago we got dumped on in the spring overnight at 5.5 iches of rain and it blew all my terraces on a farm I rented back then, I thiink I had maybe 60 acres all terraced, now there were a few on the farm I had built and those didn't blow, I put in bigger mains and larger tile and intakes, so I got the song about the 100 year flood and the landowner didn't want to spend any money to put in larger lines at least to the bottom terraces so if it did it again those would hold. I put them all back again and planted my crops, 30 days later when things were looking great another 6 iches of rain came during the day, this time all my terraces except the ones I had built looked like a war zone, again went in and rebuilt them, by now was beyond upset, again the story about 100 yeear flood thing and tried to replant some of the worst of the crops to beans around the basin areas, total disaster. Now about 35 days later still the last blast came and that one again was around 6 inches and during the day and I drove over in it and watched the rain take out all the work I had done the second time around and just stood there in total disbelief as to what I was seeing happening, theres no way any structure can take that kind of abuse and I'd never actually seen a terrace blow in front of my eyes before let alone about 15 fail almost simotaniously as I watched, words can't describe what I was seeing let alone the emotion I felt of all the work that had been done, only a few of the ones I had put in my way held, they overtopped but didn't blow. Now I had also done every waterway on that enitre farm every time as well and there were catch basins put in above a neighbors pond that was an enormous structure with two 8 inch intakes and the top was about 12 ft highrer than the intake area basin, I stood there and watched as the entire basin filled and overtopped at a debth of over 5ft and kept going, aftwards it took almost 3 ft off the top of that basin end to end and it had been seeded down for amost 14 years at the time and filled it in level full to the top with dirt, now the ground around the basin was notilled in corn ground and also hay fields, the last blast was the worst by far, more like a flash flood and then the afternath to deal with, this time around I got the story of the 500 year flood, well maybe, but I stood back and analyzed what held and what didn't and how come, now the terraces I had built originally that overtopped but didn't blow, they had a lot of sediment deposited in the basin areas and ditches like I'd never seen before and the ones that had blown twice that year had no sediment and no terrace either, now it was too late to do anything by then so we waited until fall after the worst havesiting conditions I ever seen in my life and went to work. Now its true that the settling basin thing works but when they blow you loose all the sedimnet and the terrace, larger lines helped to speed the water release and we had a lot more sediment left in those terraces to work with and by the time we got done rebulding the other ones for the third time we'd lost so much dirt we ended up scratching to even find dirt to rebuild them at all, now since that year I know the terraces that I had the most problems with have also been rebult several more times and mine haven't been anything but cleaned out or thats what I was told since we don't rent that farm anymore. I think the idea of 2 inches in 24 hours is wrong and should be upsized considerably, it helps a lot to have the end channel lower than the center of the terrace so they flow the excess around the ends but theres a lot that don't build them like that even today or are too long to make it work at all. In my opinion its better by far to have larger lines and loose some sediment over the years from not settling out than to rebuild the terraces after they have blown even once, the dirt loss is tremendous now if you have to do say a half dozen times over the life of the terrace I'd have to say your way behind on the amount of dirt you lose and need to use to rebuild the terrace with. Now they can say job security all they want when it comes to terrace rebulds but from where I'm sitting they can go scr*w themselves, thats my dirt and my time and the system failed and I'm not too keen on failures, I"ve been argueing with them to put in larger lines with either multiple intakes at each side by side and use smaller holes with an open top or a tremendiously larger intake with smaller holes and an open top,so when the water gets to certain height it basically dumps the water out at max capacity on all terraces and have line capability to handle it, the problems with the offset system if that the top ones drain faster than the rest and the problems come in when the top ones start to overtop and adds more water still to a slow to drain bottom ones. That year the bottom terraces had the intake, lines and everythng gone and we could drive a dozer up through the hole in them and did it three times, I'd say maybe theres a problem with the system and we need to think prevention of total failure instead the way we are thinking now, after three failures in a year those terraces lost more dirt than what good they would do in 40 years of soil conservation by far.
Wow Well Randy I don’t know were you are in Ia but there are a lot of different soil types and were I work we haven’t had any trouble with catastrophic failure We had a 12.3'' rain 3 years ago in a 14hr time frame and didn’t have any thing that failed completely there were some ditches washed in some but not all. I agree with you completely about the nrcs not using big enough lines and intakes I get sick of making orifices to there spec then having them removed as soon as the farmer gets the check why not leave them out all together? We have several costumers that don’t use any gov money they just tell us what they want and we build it no cost share and no check out sheets and usually no dead spots in the field were it took 4 days to drain. I cleaned out some terraces for an older customer last spring that were built in the mid 70's there was 2 that had less than 2'' showing around the top of the intake and they were sound other than the back toe was wash boarded from running over the top. I did not post a reply to start an argument over letting silt settle out but if your not catching the silt why have a terrace at all you would be more likely to catch it in a reeds canary waterway than let it run through a 12'' intake. I do like your thoughts on putting a bee hive on the top of a intake at a elevation below the ridge. I have been using GPS machine control this fall and it makes it a lot easier to make the center higher than the end on the terrace. We have always tried to do this but was not as easy when we were just using lasers the gps takes the guess work out of it. Please let me know what county you are in as I am interested in your soil types, down here we are lucky to have 3 to 6'' of anything black and the rest is yellow sticky clay except for the very bottom of the ditch that usually has a foot or more a black silty loam. Also what types of terraces have you had the most trouble with broad base narrow base steep front or steep back?
Northeast Iowa, up in the corner, I don't mean to argue either I'm just trying to find out if others are having the same kinds of problems as me, I just talked to a gentlemant on monday about 50 miles from me thats retiring and selling off a few pieces of machinery, [already had it sold] and he had the very same problems I've been seeing and he's handled it the same way, either the farmer puts in larger lines and bigger mains or he wouldln't do the job, end of discussion, thats also the same thing I've been doing. We have a lot more black dirt to work with than you have and then its a mix of fayette soils and a lot of time the clay your dealing with is deeper, I've seen what you deal with and we have very little of it in our area, and since the nrcs doesn't cost share enough to spend the time to strip off the topsoil over the last 30 years 75% of all the terraces are built out of the topsoil being pushed up and then the farmer farms the rocks and sub soil left. The terraces that blew were built completely out of topsoil, nothing else and they blew catastropically and to this day they still insisit on doing it for the cost share dollars or "we conserve the soil not preserve the topsoil" mentality and I've argued for years and got nowhere about the need to strip ALL the topsoil and build the entire terrace out of subsoil or even rock if thats whats there, the failures accur when they are not built out of sub soil or built when the ground is way too dry to pack, I've seen it happen and also experienced it myself, they blow out along the tile line and you end up with a hole right throug the terrace and the top is still intact. The watering and packing is essential to making them work right. From what I've seen the need to spread the center black dirt out and replace it with clay is the single biggest factor but its not done even to this day, by building them like is described here if you have black dirt tile line debth you can't move it out and replace it with clay, so what happens is you build them faster and cover up the black dirt in the center say 3-4 ft deep and when the terrace is done the most mellow dirt in the entire structure is around the intake and center core right under the most important part of the terrace and thats why those on that farm blew, it followed the black layer right out and when we put tile lines back we did it in entirely black dirt, probably tama or a downs soil of some type and a mixture of fayette's and several others. You discuss the sedimentation and to clean them back out, yes I agree totally but how much does the clay subsoil you have actually wash and silt back in if theres no black dirt left? When you end up farming the rocks and sub soil clay it usually stays put pretty well and doesn't end up around the intakes and silting in the terraces, which also brings up the next problem of the ones that don't clean them out and that lessens the basin area and later on causes a failure of the terraces, seen a lot of that as well. I'm thinking maybe a different kind of intake is needed and smaller holes up so far and then larger holes and an open top to prevent total failures, the crop can only stand to be out of air for a day at about the longest before it starts to show signs of yield loss, and now with the yield monitors in combines the farmers are figuring out how much less the crops around the intakes actually yield than other areas of the fields and are wanting to speed up the water removal to help the yields improve, can't blame them, the next problem we see is debris from to till planting plugging up the intakes and water not getting out at all and causing failures, its a no win deal and I haven't come up with those answers yet at all, some of the guys are tired of farming around the intakes and are putting in major tile and rock in lines at the intake area and completely takng out the intakes and using the tile to absorb the water, don't know how this works in times of major rain or not but its also how many inches per hour you get not the total that kills you, if you get 9 inches over how many days isn't as bad as 4-6 inches in an hour like we got that time and then just smeary dreary rain after that. I've been trying to find out how others are combatting the problems and I know farmers are a smart bunch along with contractors and someone's come up with the solution but its not talked about yet, we've also discussed a totally different style of intake, seen the wire top ones put in at ground level and we've thought about putting something like that on top of the hickenbottoms tops but haven't tried it yet, kinda the best of both worlds, but those alone let sediment go out completely, nothings held back also seen them where the trash has floated and completely covered them up not letting any water get out and causing failures, as they say there needs to be a better way to handle the trash, keep in the sediment, and prevent plugups and also mass water evacuation in times of extreme rains and as of yet I"m not seeing all those rolled into one or how to go about it. Aslo water being sucked out a large diameter intake with large lnes tends to plug less due to the swirling action and also the ability to handle larger amounts of water/debris than out a six inch intake that the line is basically full and very little water runs out and no swirling action is at the intake, then the cornstalks float and are slowly pulled towards the intake and settle there plugging them up tight, seen it a lot, the small intakes with small lines are not the answer in times of extreme weather and just before total failure, we've even seen it where the undersized tile lines slow up at the outlet due to plugging of the intakes and then a failure occurs, afterwards the cornstalks fall off the intakes and one thinks, well we had severe weather and nothing could have prevented it, not always the case, seen it where they didn't blow and it took days for the tile lines to absorb the water in the basin areas and dry up and then the debris falls off the intakes and nobody knew what happened other than theres a lot of debris by the intakes and the next small rains not a problem, they work just like they are supposed to work. I've tried to be as objective as possible to find a solution for my customers and myself, I've got a lot of customers who are fed up with the nrcs and want a system that works every time or at least half the time, I"ve even got farmers who are waiting for the maintance contracts to end and are planning on having them leveled off again and wanting to go back to strip cropping, they are fed up and like one guy told me, 'all the terraces have done is cost me money and saved nothing of my soil, they built them out of my topsoil and I farm the rocks and clay and evey time they blow out or overtop more of my topsoil ends up downstream and its costs me more to replace a system that doesn't work or topsoil I can't farm anyhow". I can't argue with him or them for that matter but other than spend more money to try and solve the problems I have no other ideas for them. A lot of these larger operators have it figured out though, I've been told by them to talk the farmers out of projects and they'll make sure I get hired to do jobs they want done instead that need to be done for improvements and when the older generation of farmers are no longer calling the shots and the kids are going to the renters can talke the kids into whatever they want done and the nrcs is a thing of the past, the landowners kids don't know and haven't delt with the nrcs before and since the renters are the same age or older they will llsten to the renters and not the government, I'm seeing it already on a lot of farms where the kids took over the managing of them. They kick out the management services and the lenders are no longer involved and the renters call the shots and the new owners listen to their renters and the nrcs is a thing of the past on those farms and getting so more every day. Can't blame the renters at all, like one told me, why spend thousands on a waterway I can't cross, why not have one I can cross for less money spent, why build terraces or ponds when I can have ditches cleared out and made crossable and more tile installed instead, those improvements make the renters money not terraces or approved waterways or ponds never make a renter money or a ditch plug makes the renter what? In the next 15 years your going to see a major trend change in the attitudes of the new generation of absantee owners and how they are infuenced by the renters. I"ve even had renters tell me if you don't talk the older generation owner out of the project I'll see you never work on any of my rented farms again, I'll make sure you get the same total dollars worth of work just not what the owner wants today, the renter will talk him into somthing else instead, so instead of terracing I'll end up tiling more or somthing like that, one even went so far as to get the lenders involved and have them tell me this is the way its going to be or else, the renters my client and HE gets what HE wants and it up to you to talk the old guy out of thses projects or else, I though that was bold and different but also a warning. Has anybody else had these experiences or is it just me?
I havent heard of tenants or lenders puting any pressure on contractors although from time to time we will try to sway the owners to change a prodject but only if it is in there best intrest it usualy saves them money in the end. As for the cleaning out question the bottom of the draws are usualy still full of topsoil and this is what needs cleaned out its usualy the best of the best dirt and we spread it back up hill so we can move it again in 10 more years. Have you ever tried makeing a trash rack to put around the intake use expanded metal or rock quary screens make a 24'' dia tube to set over the intake that would give over 2400 sq'' of surface area surely that wouldnt get complety pluged a 6''intake only has 600 sq'' of surface area. If it worked it would be a lot cheaper than rebuilding them and the extra yeilds would be a benifit.
So far I haven't been swayed any direction, I kinda told the lender to stand down on this issue, it wasn't in his best interest. That renter did blackball me from all his farms, owned and rented and as of yet I didn't get too worried, I was too consumed with being mad,we had words and parted ways. Theres right and wrong on both sides of that fence, I can see both views and not really sure I want to be the one to stick my neck out and resolve it, that renter and I didn't see eye to eye on much and I'm not doing his negotiating for him, I told him I'd do like the owner wanted and unless it was unreasonable or wouldn't work would I presuade him otherwise. I've had several renters try this on me now and they are big operators and I believe that they are going to change the way things are done in the futre, theres no doubt about it, I just haven't figured out how to work around this issue as of yet, play the game or call their bluff and not get bullied around. If anyone has any idea let me know, or if they have gone one way and regretted it let me know as well. I'm not thinking this is going to go away anytime soon, unless they go broke first and they solve it for me. Never thought of the idea of trash guards set over the intakes before, thanks, that should work, guess I wasn't thinking in that aspect at all, but it makes sense. I really appreciate the reply.
Wow, that's a pretty agressive renter you've got there. In my area there are a lot more small owner/operator farms and not too many big operations, so I'd be surprised to hear of this happening. In my opinion the right thing to do would be to inform the landowner and let them sort it out, but I realize you risk losing a lot of business if the renter has influence with other operators. Reminds me of a farm survey we did a few years ago...I was setting the Right-of-way monuments adjacent to a section corner. It fell about 10 ft out in the tilled ground and the renter started getting huffy asking why I was setting it in the field ...told me he was going to pull the rod as soon as I left. I told him I wasn't setting it in the field, you're farming the roadway. I let the farm manager know and he straighted him out.
Renters Randy 88 I don't do a lot of farm work, but were I do work is all large scale farms. Some renters that don't know me have tried to "encourage" me to do things their way and not the way the owner wants, or I will not get any more of their work. I really don't care I if work for them or not as I have to much work to do already. So far only one renter has black balled me and he still calls me wanting me to do work. I will not get in the middle of a renter/ owner fight and just tell them to call the owner. I will agree that it will be interesting when the new generation takes over management of the farms. They don't have a clue and renters know that and take advantage of them.
I have been on both sides of this issue, every deal is different and takes a different approach. Just have to use your head to do the right thing. An excellent operator will usually have the knowledge to do what is right given a rough run down by the owner of what he wants to end up with. You end up just building it the way you would want it to so it will work and that also will work for them.