Hi guys, I have been on a 140 G this week doing local projects. This is a driveway the owner wanted me to fix for him. It was about 1600' long and he wanted it to drain without putting in culverts. When they originally built it they made it flat with no ditchs so it had rain ruts all over and was concave if anything. He didn't want to bring in fill material so I told him we could carve ditches and crown it with the material that was there. No roller or water truck either just me. Thankfully it was great dirt to work with and I just pulled the ditches into the center and kept wheel rolling for compaction and working the material and mixing it while I was shaping. I liked working uphill as I could control my load better. I usually backed down and kept splitting my tracks for compaction as there was no where to turn around up top. I so wanted to shift the circle up and pull a nice slope on the right of this pic but I couln't free the pin! even had the owner tap on it with a sledge while I jiggled it Turned out for the better maybe as I would have drug down stumps and debris and then I would have had to get rid of it without getting mixed in the grade. Thanks to Larry and the illustrations he put together. They helped me understand better using the articulation for ditch work and bulk pushing. I still get lost with the artic on a grader. I feel good going into a radius but coming out I never seem to smoothly return to straight. When I want to approach something articulated I always go the wrong way first! I can't wait for a muddy ditch to clean so I can turn the blade 180 and go backwards with my tandoms on the road and my front in the mud! Randy if you have pics of this I would love to see them. Thanks. It took a lot of passes to get the ditchs made and heap the material in the center and get it shaped and compacted. Unfortunatly I couldn't take the time to take pics of all phases as the owner was right there and very concerned about every move. He took these pics. Thanks for the tips and links to better learn this great tool Grader4me, Clayton M, Turbo and Randy and Northart and everybody else sharing thier thoughts and experience:drinkup Scott
Personally i'd say your going to need some deeper ditches. All that rain water come off the banks and down the hill has got to go somewhere. Put in a 1' deep ditch on each side and put about 1/4" of fall for every foot from break of shoulder (top of ditch cut) to center. If he's got any low spots in the driveway he's got to put in a cross pipe or something to shoot the water out of the ditch into either an off ditch or down in a bottom. I'd have to see the whole project to see what will work.
Good looking job Scott! Thanks for sharing with us. I've worked on roads similar to what you are working on. Its hard when you have to ditch long stretches with no off takes etc for the water to go. Where possible its a good idea to veer your ditch towards the woods every once in awhile so the water won't have to run so far. By looking at your picture maybe there is no place this can be done. Would have been nice to be able to cut that back-slope but it would have required a lot more work as the material wouldn't have been suitable for the road. I've pulled this stuff out on the road before and had it loaded and hauled away. I've also bull penned it, but that is a lot of work and you need the room to achieve this and a front blade makes it easier. In my opinion I wouldn't cut the ditches to much deeper than what you have. The road is narrow to start with and cutting your ditches deeper is going to narrow the road even more. Unless..you can set the ditch back more so that your fore slope isn't getting into the existing road bed. Anyway, again thanks for sharing!
GROYSER nice work, I always start at the low end and work up when ditching I think you get a better feel for grade and if ever start to spin out or start getting stuck you can most always back out. If he gets a hard rain the ditches will get deeper on there own, when he hires you back to fix the ditch ruts you can cut the back slopes like you wanted to to fill them in. Do hope the guy is going to put some rock down. Keep up the good work.
That's some really cool work, looks like you were having fun. That's a really nice pic of you plowing up the hill with the board loaded. I'm not a grader person but was interested in the advice the grader hands had to share. I do have one question; that seems like a long grade, shouldn't the owner at least line the ditch with stone to slow down the rain water and control erosion?
All the rip rap in the world ain't going to help that guy unless he puts it in from top to bottom. Then that's where it goes from just cutting ditches to expensive. Cause he's got to get probably 2 rolls of 12' rip rap liner and cut them in half and run them in the ditch..eesh. Then again if you just put check dams in it'll only wash either on the back slope side, or wash out on the driveway. The driveway looks plenty wide (at least 18' from shoulder break to shoulder break) It'll only cutoff maybe 5 tenths off each side by cutting a foot deep ditch if even that. By looking at the material its looking like nothing but clear top soil that your putting in the driveway.. not good at all.
Thanks for the input JonesBros. The ditches are about 1.5' to 2' below centerline now with the road crowned and without crushed top course which we place tomorrow. He does not want to pay for culverts or rock lined ditches.
Thanks Grader4me. I wanted to shed the upper part of the road to the left going downhill and plow a swale to get rid of the water but it is stump city and would have been a real mess. I mentioned getting a backhoe and trenching an outlet between the stumps but he does not want to spend the money:beatsme
Hi littleroadgrade, 10-4 on coming back to fix the ditches but yes, we will have the top course rock by then so :Banghead
Hi ATCOEQUIP, it is a fun job because the material is great and moist so perfect for shaping. Yes he would be much better off with a rock lined ditch but has no money to spend. ointhead It's hard to tell on this pic but the white arrow shows where I went from crowned to shed left going downhill, there was an existing swale off that side. I then went back to crown the rest of the way down to where it dumps to the right (left of pic) at the bottom
I hear you. Looks like you have a good crown and you cut ditches on both sides. Not much else you can do if he doesn't want to put out the extra funds. Might want to throw some grass seed and hay on the ditches to stabilize them, but I find with these types of ditches you have to clean them out once in a while when grading. Great looking job! :thumbsup
The material actually has more granular in it than it looks and tightened up pretty good. He has 6 truck and trailer loads coming tomorrow for top course. Around here they usually figure you need to dump your drainage evey 10' of drop max. I mentioned that but . . .:beatsme Check this out guys, he is an old trucker (cool old vet) and originally wanted to have the truckers spread the crushed (stone in the east?) with no blading after! He said if they couldn't do it he was going to show them how:drinkup I talked him into letting me place it with the blade . . .
I kind of hacked it in but got er done.
The new swale is on the left of this pic so I went back to crowned road all the way.
Scott I will have some pictures up tomorrow. I was doing some 180 degree full articulated grading today. Just wait until you see why and the material I get to deal with. They'll be posted under the original thread. Regards, Randy
Looks like a fun job! I can hardly wait to see what it looks like with the rock on it, that is going to be a nice road that should hold up real well! Nice Grader to!
Fantastic! 180 full artic backwards pulling ditchs 3rd gear pinned! I will be checking in, thanks again Randy.
Hi Ironman, yes it's a sweet little job and now with the improved drainage I feel pretty good about it. We were going to go with trucks and trailers but ended up with singles so that was a relief. Brought in 15 loads of 5/8 - with plenty of binder. Still could have used more, it was only 3" average at centerline down to nothing at the ditches.
Question for the blade hands here: I went with a parabolic crown on the subgrade vs. attempting to "straight edge" from shoulder to centerline. I ended up with 3-4" of top course at center line and down to nothing at the shoulder. Had we had more rock I would have went 3" over all of subgrade to top of ditch. Is this how you guys would have done it? Thanks in advance.
Mighty fine work there Grouser, I'd say the 3-4" center top coarse is right on track, most anyone driving that road will drive down the center anyway,people tend to drive like sheep, where ever the first one drives everyone following will drive the same path. Keep up the good work
If you would have spread your rock evenly over the whole road how much cover would you have had? It looked like you had a good crown on your sub base, probably around 3 to 4 per cent? I'm just curious as to what per cent your crown is now with building up your center more with the rock. Usually I try and spread my material evenly, as I already have my road base shaped with proper crown and elevations. Good looking job..edges look straight..
I agree 100% Always make sure you have at least 3" of cover on the driveway because if you don't in a years time you'll be coming back and putting more stone on it! What are you using 21A or 26? A lot of places (if using a roller and water truck) prefer 21A in the late spring & summer since it has a bit of topsoil or pug mix as they call it, to retain water when it comes to fine grading and packing.
Ain't that the truth! You've done well Grouser.:thumbsup Rn'R.
That was my thinking also, the center 10' is where most the rock is. I suppose if there was to be 2 way traffic it might have been better to spread it evenly out to top of ditch but then it would have only been maybe 2" thick at best. Thanks for the input, do you take the time to "straight edge" from shoulder to centerline on private drives, or just rough crown like I did? Randy brought up a good point about the parabolic crown being harder to plow but to me, it is a lot easier to create vs. a straight edge crown.
I am figuring I maybe would have had 2" had I spread evenly from centerline to shoulder. The subgrade has a good 8 to 10% crown I am guessing, I made it pretty extreme to insure it doesn't flatten out again. With the rock mostly in the center I don't know . . . I will shoot it tomorrow to see what it came out as.
10-4 on at least 3". Around here we get a lot of snow and careless snow plow technique can really wipe out your surface stone especially when it is not frozen. Not sure on the aggregate spec other than was 5/8 minus with ample binder and packs pretty good. I like working with it and it holds up well over time.
Hi Rn'R, how about we put up signs: "Always split your tracks and just because those ruts are there does not mean you have to drive in them!"
About the only way that would work, Grouser, would be to actually put the signs in the ruts. I was always telling my blokes, not to keep driving in the same tracks, but I might just as well have went and had a conversation with a fence post. I would say to them "If I put a b****y great rock on that track, I guarantee you would run over it!" Didn't make any difference.:Banghead We build and rebuild a lot of farm roads here, similar to what you are doing, but we do not have the water problems that you have. I am always telling our customers, to build the road a little bit wider than one car width, which is often what they want and when they are driving on it, to move over and back constantly and the surface of the road will last three times as long, especially if they do not get it graded very often. Rn'R.
I missed this post and pic. That's what you have to do my friend! Use your imagination and make it work. There is no such thing as impossible...well.. almost no such thing.. On edit..it's great that you're asking for tips, but don't sell yourself short here. You're the guy on the machine, and from what I'm seeing you really don't need much help..
Ended up with an average of about 9% cross slope with the rock. Probably about 6 to 7% on the subgrade. It's a little extreme for crown but I am thinking with all the snow we have been getting it will shed water that much better and take longer to flatten out. You guys in heavy snow/water areas ever try this much crown? My only concern is slick/icy conditions may put you in the ditch. I will take photos in a year and see how it worked out.
I think more than anything I just like discussing different theories on the art and science of dirt! :drinkup
I hear ya...How long have you been on a grader? I try for 3 to 4% as more than that can make the driving a little harder in the winter. As well, with extreme crowns it makes it uncomfortable to drive on, thus people have a tendency to drive in the center of the road. Your road looks very good though and it will flatten down some. What is the feeling/comments from the owner of the road?
Grader4me, I probably have around 1500 hrs on grader but it has been on and off over the last 30 years. I always jump on one any chance I get. Mostly so far has been haul road maintainence for off road trucks. The owner likes the excessive crown and he and his wife promised me they will always split thier tracks and stay close to center. It rained hard last night and he called me today to say that the drainage worked great. Thanks again for the input.
Don't Leave Home without Them MG Mans best friends!
Damn.. I wish we had that kind of water truck & roller. But then again working for the state my oldies but goodies get paid just as much a brand new one off the lot! But imagine that.. a KW for a water truck..wow.
Great thread fellas.
Yes on the water truck and roller. What a pain it is trying to grade without them, a guy can wheel roll all day long and still no comparison. I do think overall though for the money he has into this driveway that all the choices he made were smart. A water truck, roller, culverts and more rock would have at least quadrupled the cost of the job. I mentioned earlier that the owner is a veteran, he served in Korea and Vietnam. While we were working, a FedEx truck pulled up and I noticed him walking up the hill with a box. Turns out his home burned down 4 years ago and he finally recieved his replacement medals from the U.S. military. Once I started asking him questions he told me a little about what happened. He was a helicopter door gunner for the 101st Airborne and was shot down in Vietnam. He was hit twice by a 30 caliber machine gun, he showed me the entrance and exit scars for the one that hit him in the abdoman area, wow! His right arm had a nasty chunk out of it too. I asked him if I could get a pic of the medals so he laid them out for me. The Purple Heart is hidden behind the lever. I am so glad I did the best I could for this man :usa
The one problem with a crown greater than 4 percent is that if you get a high volume of snow you will get freshlets in the spring, and they will move a considerable amount of material off of the road and fill in your ditches.
Great spot to do a lil V Ditch and Camber all at least on the grassy side.. Looked nice and dry lost of good material to play with. Nice Job.
Grouser, send that gent my respects. Good job on the driveway, looks like you have taken a good course of action with the materials and equipment at hand. I'm no grader hand and doubt I could have done as clean a job as that. Keep up the good work.
One thing that can work for guys that do not want to spend the money on a pipe is put a few logs in the road rather than the culvert. Not the best thing to use but it will get the water moving. Have used it on forestry roads when no pipe is available right away and you have to get the water moving.