What is the most complicated piece of agricultural or industrial machinery? I don't mean brand or model, just generic type. And I don't mean artificially complex, like when they add tons of bells and whistles, or electronics to a machine whose functions can be performed without them, I mean a machine whose most basic form is the most complicated. My personal vote goes to the combine harvester, but I am interested to hear your thoughts. Thanks, Mitch
I vote for the Female sex... or maybe this, http://www.getodd.com/news/121599/apachehoe2.jpg nope, women win
Yair . . . I think you are close to the money mitch504 . . . and balers of course. Cheers
I think one of the toughest pieces of equipment for me to get good at using was the motor grader/maintainer. To just run its easy but to actually accomplish anything worthwhile on it was hard and frustrating but after getting the hang of it it's one of my favorite to operate. I have ran a combine and didn't find it very difficult to run but we have a small farm and a small Massey combine. We use it for corn and soy beans mainly and both heads are small, four row corn head.
This one impressed me. When Caterpillar bought the Klaas combine, they put 11 on board computers and 70 miles of wire. Just as an example, the Liberty supply ship in world war 2 had 5 miles of wire in the equivalent of a thirteen story building laid on its side. This thing crossed the ocean! We have to have it just to cross the section now!? Technology is great. It will keep me working for a looong time.
Combines and balers are pretty simple once you understand them and how they work, electronics are a nighmare on anything when they try to make life easier by using electic switches to control things, potentiometers, not sure the spelling is right on that word, I usually use another word in its place, just can't post it on here, and some other things, make everyone's life a whole lot harder, easier when they work, but a total pain when they don't. My vote would be for either a jet, or a submarine, maybe its just the enviroment they work in or the fact you can't just shut them off and get out and work on them at any time, but complex systems on those two would boggle anyone's mind I would think, especially in todays age of electronics, computers, guidance systems, satelites, navigation systems, communication systems and the list is endless, a rocket would also rank up there in tech and complex as well, same goes for satelites. If you want to discuss complex and really high tech, how about your cell phone, you can call anyone in the world, chat online, do far more things than I ever knew I wanted to do and it fits in your pocket and now can even be submerged in water and still work, just don't ask me how to run it other than make a call, I"m thinking there is more technology in one cell phone than the first landing craft that put people on the moon, and they cost a couple hundred bucks each, last two or three years and are outdated the day they hit the shelves for people to buy.
While I'd love to answer your question, Mitch, this one is about as complex as I'm able to fully understand:
As a farmer, I look at the motor grader and think thats a complicated machine, to run propperly. Probably much the way some guys look at a combine or baler as think that its a complicated machine, which, to me, don't seem overly complicated at all. A square baler will get you aggravated when they get out of adjustment. But really the mechanical operation of the machine is pretty simple. The controls aren't that difficult to master. The big thing that causes lots of issues, is the electronics and emissions crap.
I have run combines and find them easy.I might think a cotton pickers might be.A motor grader would be right in there.
I spent a year working in a sawmill just out of high school when electrical and electronic equipment was just starting to catch on. That was over 40 years ago and the mill wrights were complaining then of the complications. Problem was, the output of the mill more than tripled with 70 less men per shift. When I got introduced to log processors I wondered how I was ever going to catch up on those. Turns out the engineers figured out how to make those machines easier to figure out. Now days the electronics packages in heavy equipment are starting to be able to simplify the operation and troubleshooting. It won't be too long before the machine will be able to order the part and schedule when to put it in before catastrophic failure. You won't have to listen to whinny operators anymore. I can imagine instead some machine's synthetic female voice nagging you about how long it will take before you are finished with the repair. Nothing in heavy equipment compares to manufacturing or process plant equipment. Printing presses might be a hundred feet long, carry plumbing that would give a ship fitter nightmares, a huge air system, ink tanks, multiple print drums, drying equipment and cutters. Food processing is just as complicated and we haven't even gotten to industrial robots yet. We could discuss warships next but who could ever keep up with the technology that goes on in those things. I would not be surprised if the designers and engineers of the combines had begun their working lives doing manufacturing plants.
As mentioned above: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTqiVOpu5KQ
im going follow the group and say using a grader properly would be pretty hard but ill also throw a spanner in the works and say a asphalt plant/spreader/layer/paver because it can take up to 4 men to operate and another crew of how many to support its continuos use ill attach a picture to prevent confusion
Although I understand the basics of it's operation, I have yet to obtain a proper license to operate it..:cool2
And you know what--break it, and even Willie would tell you it's not worth fixing and to go buy a new one...
Exactly!
Thanks for the responses guys, (even Digger and CM). I would surely agree about the grader being complicated to run, and I once went and worked on a crane for a guy who scraps newspaper printing presses (yes, there are enough coming out now for that to be a full time business), so I have seen what they are like. Stumpjumper would be right if females were machines, but I find it hard to believe that something that uses no logic at all is a machine. What I was really thinking about is mobile machinery, and the complications like number of moving parts, or interdependent functions. I still think the combine, while not that complicated to operate, would rank near the top with it's many belts and chains driving many, many shafts through several different kinds of drives such as manually and hydraulically adjusted variable drives, electromagnetic clutches and etc. The one have been working on has 8 different hydraulic pumps. It is an '87 model and has only basic electronics but is still one complex creature.
the old company I worked for had and old Cleveland Spade in the corner of the lot. I always looked at it and was amazed at all the chains, cables, paddles, and levers. Never got to run one sadly. Looked like you got a work out from running it and keeping it lubed.
Mitch, you need to get a red combine instead of a green one, the red rotary's only have about four belts, one pump and four chains on the base unit, far simplier than some others, the new one's don't have much for belts or chains, mostly gear box run, only deere and a few others can complicate something really simple. By chance is it a 9000 series deere?
Huh, I didn't know they made red combines. :beatsme I've never owned any combine, but I've gotten sucked into working on several older Deeres over the years, starting before they were old; 4400s, 6620s, and 7720s. I just spent the last 2 days rebuilding the electromagnetic clutch on a 7720, and replacing a bearing that is under the edge of that clutch on a 6620 for the same man. Don't even these fabled "red" :beatsme ones have to do a lot of things in one space? Even
Mitch, friends don't let friends buy green combines especially if you have to help fix them. I've worked on and ran all the mentioned combines plus a few more also made by deere, plus most every other brand out there,now that you've seen the inner workings on those machines, you'd appreciate the simplicity of most any rotary on the market. Tell the guy your helping fix, if it was a fabled red one, none of those parts are there "to" fix, they don't exist on those machines, its called simplicity, have a look for yourself, go lift some shields and see what there is to not see, you'll be amayzed at what you don't find.
Graders, in my opinion are a fairly simple tool when you look at the overall concept. The principle has remained the same for over 100 years, a couple sets of wheels, with a blade somewhere in between that "planes" out the area being worked. A graders only true limitation is the operators imagination. I have recently been "blessed" with the opportunity to run our companies pavement mills, as of late, a Wirtgen W2100. Between the 2 conveyor belts, the drum with 168 carbide tipped teeth, the 4 tracks, the big yellow C18, and all the different slope and grade sensors, as far as iron is concerned, these things get my vote. Slip form concrete pavers get pretty crazy too, Cranes have always improved technologically speaking, but the concept has always remained the same, a lever, a fulcrum point, and some rope hanging around.
bigshow, I think I do agree with what you said and withdraw the motor grader from being a complicated piece of equipment. I think what I was thinking is more along the line of the most complicated to run. Now I don't know what piece of equipment I would pick.
There really not that bad, I find them to be quite relaxing. The 'Ol boy that broke me in told me that less is more, you should be only making minor adjustments if you're going to make any adjustments at all. You just got to let the grader do its thing, if you're in there yanking and cranking them levers, you're doing it wrong. Sometimes just leaning the wheels a bit, circle-shifting or adjusting the moldboard tilt will be enough to raise or lower the G.E.T. enough to accomplish what is needed. About the only time I grab a fist full of levers and yank 'em till they stop is to turn around at the end of a pass, and then it's only the articulation, wheel lean, circle turn, and maybe a lil side shift levers.
No there not that bad but compared to everything else that I run it was by far the hardest to accomplish what I wanted to. After I learned how to run it, it has become one of my favorite pieces of equipment to run. Now I can do what I want on it and make it look good without getting frustrated from continually gouging the blade. Everything else I have learned to run I was able to accomplish what I wanted, it may not have looked as good as I can make it look now and it may have taken longer but I was able to do it none the less. The grader on the other hand I would gouge in the dirt every 50 yards or look down and the blade was completely off the ground. Usually what happened was I would run it for a bit then someone would have to clean up and finish after me. Luckily those days are over and I'm the one cleaning up after other people.
I've worked on a heap of earthmoving gear but recently been exposed to some Rail gear.. particularly one of these things, a ballast Tamper http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I-dygdwNzU The amount of electronics and hydraulics are up there as well as the calabration required as it will accually hold and position the tracks to the correct plain.. one of these runs in around the 10mil mark If you got around 40mil you can get yourself a ballast cleaner which removes, sorts, cleans, resizes and replaces the ballast.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-xs_XiCoQE
Those links led to a variety of rail reconstruction technologies and machines. Pretty impressive
Every machine I've thought of can be reduced to a few simple functions. Maybe we should change the question to what simple machine can we make the most complicated?
Proper use and operation of a walking excavator. Graders are a walk in the park in comparison IMHO
My vote is the large electric rope shovels. A 7000vac trail cable into an onboard transformer, eight 1200-1800hp electric motors each with a large variable speed drive, treads up to 13 ft wide, numerous lube systems, compressed air system, blowers with filtration for the house, four 4-5" wire ropes, winch to help change ropes, dipper door latch system, a control system with several computers and hundreds of inputs/outputs, operator/maintenance displays, on-board weight system, anti-collision system, anti-stall system, etc. Some even have incinerating toilets. Draglines are very similar, everything is just large or more of them. ISZ
Tunnel boring machine.
Biggest P.I.T.A machine for me is a Wacker RT82. Very complicated because it is always broke down.
As for mobile agricultural equipment I would say any type of harvester/combine. It's small factory on wheels doing many different operations at the same time. This tomato harvester is interesting www.tomatoharvester.com/johnson.htm As for mobile industrial equipment..... I just dont know?I was going to say paver or concrete screed as they are doing multible operations with a product that has a short time line to work with.
Those links are pretty good. It's very interesting.
I have spent a fair bit of time over under and inside a John Deere 7720 combine harvester (or "header" as we call them here) so I know what you are talking about Mitch, but I would have to agree with rare ss, and say that rail maintenance machines take the cake as far as complex mobile machinery goes.
What a great thread !..............But I gotta dissagree here. The shovel is a bit like my Grandfather's axe. It's had 6 new handles and 2 new heads, but by Jingos, its been a good axe ! My vote goes to the hydraulic excavator. The overall efficiency of modern ones compared to the original ones with multi-section gear pumps and open-centre systems is amazing. Just the technology of piston and rod seals to handle the high speed movement of the cylinders is incredible. (That's why seal kits are so expensive!) Cheers. M.