Hi guys, New to the forum. Sure was glad to find all of this knowledge on equipment here. We own a small ranch in eastern Arizona that has about 1.5 mile road going up to the property. Every year when the monsoons come in most of this road gets severely rutted or washed out down to the bedrock(pictures attached). Recently I have been looking at finding a dozer I can use to keep our road in decent shape. I have several leads on older equipment and am trying to find out what would work best and what I can afford. Not afraid of the older dozers but I also understand some machines may just be a money pit. So far I've found a Case 450B for $11k, a Late 50's Allis Chalmers HD9(no price yet), a cat D4H Series II for $12k and a Case 1150 Track loader for $18k. Pictures of all below. This is some hard ground and like I said I don't intend to make the road perfect but need to break up some of the rocky sections. What would you go with? I'll update any other dozers I find. Thanks for the help!
Here's a few more pictures of the dozers.
I'm not sure about working in rocky conditions, but around here I wouldn't want anything but a 6-way blade to work roads. I like that D4H for $12k, but sounds a little too good to be true. Why are both dozers missing their corner bits?
Just spoke to the owner of the D4. Both chains are shot and need to be replaced, slack adjuster on one side bleeds down and he said machine has a lot of rust and he bought it sight unseen and has not worked with it. Zero maintenance history. Sounds like too much of a gamble. Odd that both machines have the corner bits removed.
That kind of money isn't going to get you anything but a money pit. Something that you can work with is probably in the $30K range.
Welcome to the Forums H78! The corner bits were probably removed for transport so it fits on a trailer and no over width permit required. What is the extent of your heavy equipment experience? The first advice is to not buy any machine without a ROPS like the little Case dozer. You will need rollover protection working on rock and a slopes, wear your seatbelt.
Understood. $20k is the most I can afford to spend.
That was my guess on why the corner bits were removed but couldn't you just angle/tilt the blade? I have limited heavy equipment experience. Ran an Early 1960's D7 for a construction company for one summer but that is about it. Agree on the ROPS and belt. Thank you.
Our D5GXL is technically over width by an inch or two angled on our tag trailer but we haul it on short runs. Transport company that moves our equipment regularly have yearly over width permits so it's not an issue for our trackhoes and newer D3 LGP that are over width along with the D5G. No problems with limited experience, you are at the right place to gain valuable knowledge.
Going to check out this late 70's/early 80's D3B. Owner wants $12k. Looks to be in decent shape but I'm unsure if this is enough dozer to break up/work some of the rockier sections on our road? Anyone have some experience with D3B in rocky conditions?
I think a d3 would be a little small for your needs
Agree with Dave that little D3 is too small for what you describe you want to accomplish.
Don't waste your time looking at any D3's or any other brands that size. It is totally inadequate for your needs. I spent quite a few hours on a D3. Even a D4 class dozer wouldn't be my choice. That 450 Case is a very handy machine with the angle blade it has. But you would really struggle with it in the rocks you have. From what I saw in the photos of your road, a 6 way angle blade dozer would be a top priority. You find some strange looking machines. The Case dozer has track-loader style pads on it and the track loader has dozer grousers on it.
Thank you. Appreciate the input and I wholeheartedly agree that every piece of equipment I have found so far has been strange! haha... Back to the search. D8 just was posted up for $44k not too far away from me.
You should be able to find a decent smaller machine for a less than that D8. It looks really rough. I cannot imagine how many hours are on it.
those are some sharp sprockets indeed.
The 8 looks like it needs about $40.000.00 in undercarrage work
Don't take this the wrong way but for your $20k budget the most you are likely to get in anywhere near good condition is a skid-steer IMHO.
The D7 looks like something in a Mad Max movie.
Huber_78 - For cutting and shaping your road in that rocky ground, you really need a tractor with a ripper, a hydraulic tilt blade, and a machine that's at least 80HP. 1. The Case 450B is a toy, forget it. 2. The Allis-Chalmers HD9 is/was a very good, reliable tractor. The problem with owning a HD9 today, is that replacement undercarriage (read track chains and track rollers) is non-existent - and nearly every Allis-Chalmers tractor today has severely worn undercarriage. The HD9 is powered by the GM 2-stroke diesel (later called the Detroit Diesel) which is a very reliable, if somewhat noisy power unit. New parts for the HD9 tractor are hard to get, the GM diesel is not so bad for parts availability and most parts are available for them. The HD9 doesn't have a ripper, and the blade doesn't tilt hydraulically, both of these factors mean it'll be harder to shape that road. The photo of the HD9 is 10 yrs old, it must have done more operating hours in that 10 years - and that blade looks to me to be homebuilt, and the blade sidearms/pusharms show serious levels of wear and plating. 3. The Cat D4H promises to be a very expensive money pit, just with the repairs needed that you mentioned. Count on more repairs that weren't mentioned. 4. The Case 1150 is a traxcavator, and traxcavators are designed for, and best used for, digging bucketfuls of dirt from excavations, or loading stockpiles into trucks. They don't work well, trying to use them as bulldozers. The Case does have a ripper, an advantage there. The Case 1150 is not noted for its reliability, they have a fancy transmission that has a habit of chewing up $$$'s - even though they're neat to drive, and you can counter-rotate the tracks by putting one track in forward gear and the other track in reverse gear. 5. The D3B is a good little tractor, but way too light for what you want to do - and it has no ripper. 6. The D8 would be well over 60,000lbs and they're costly to move around by road. Plus, the parts are much bigger and also very expensive. You could spend a LOT of money on that D8. D8 engines are pretty notorious for giving regular problems with cylinder liner movement, the liners move in the block, and chew up the liner flange counterbores. Keep looking, you must be able to find something that is in your price range, and which doesn't need a whole heap of money poured into it, and is highly suitable for ranch work.
I second but expand on OzDozers presentation, here in the US anything NOT Fiat Allis and mostly Fiat in components being base Allis is made of Unobtanium, the Fiat Allis units are becoming near as bad for parts. Most Undercarriage is not ever to be found in any condition but junk. As to the Case, it as well is become obsolete. You will need a machine at least as heavy as a D6C(Or Newer), D7E series, 955 or 953 or 963 Cat, will find a very few Deere units in the 650/750 class dozer or loader to fit the size required the 555 series being a bit weight limited. The $20,000 budget will buy you a truckload of high end high dollar maintenance issues that will destroy any further budget. Skid Steer on Tracks or rubber tire on Steel Tracks is about the least expense, and most function where you can somewhat maintain yourself.
Really appreciate all the input everyone. Sounds like I need to increase my budget up to $20-$30K. Most of these machines are ones guys are sending to me. I put up an ad on CL stating I wanted to buy a dozer and although it's been nice to get some responses most people are just sending me their projects/problems.
I thought the D8 was burnt up when I first saw the pic. A track loader wouldn't be a bad option as it can dig out rocks and carry material. A track loader could also be a little smaller. The biggest part of the job is the initial shaping of the road. If that's done right, then it just needs regular maintainence. Another option is to hire someone to rough in the road and then you could use a skid steer or CTL to maintain it. Maybe even a tractor with a box blade or land plane. Depending on the rest of the property a tractor might be good to have around for mowing, road maintainence, a big garden, etc.
It may not be relevant to you. I bought a Dresser TD7G several years ago. I pictured myself being a great operator, producing excellent road from only the materials on site. I learned it's easier to do nice grades with processed material. Here, there are only a few sources of crushed bank gravel, best for smooth roadbed. More common & more economical is blasted rock, crushed & sized. I build road to shape & install drainage as needed, then add a thick layer of 1-3/4" drainage stone. It gets covered with 3/4" stone. Some would then layer on 3/4" minus. Smaller stone fills the gaps between larger stone. The relatively soft stone crushes a bit to compact together. While a bulldozer can be used to do this work, I'd prefer a compact track loader. I believe it better creates a smooth road if you aren't extremely skilled. Also, a CTL supports a Harley rake attachment best for maintaining a road after it is built. I'm not a full time excavator, but friends are. They rarely haul a dozer to the site anymore. Most roadbuilding is done with a CTL & sometimes a 7 ton excavator. The big machines stay home most of the time. I see a lot of road built without any dozer.
When we first got the property I rented a Bobcat T770. It did much more than I thought it would and it was very nice to maintain some of the less rutted/damaged areas. Where it fell flat was the areas of the road that were down to bedrock. It just did not have the power to break up those larger rocky sections in the pictures I posted. If I could get material up there a CTL or trackloader would be great to dump material over the bedrock then grade but there isn't any material available in this area. Very hard rocky ground so my thought was a larger Dozer with rippers would be the best bet to break up those sections and grade.
If considering Larger dozer and ripper, Hire it done, cheaper in long run.
Several people have mentioned in the past that ripping is hard on a dozer. Buying a used dozer with a ripper you'd want to do a very through inspection of the drivetrain. A track loader will dig a lot more than a CTL. I would think the rock would be hard on CTL tracks. You might find a decent 955 or even a 953 around the $25K range. Hiring out the initial shaping still might be the best bet.
No road will be permanent if it is lower than surrounding land. If I saw your land I might feel different. I want my roads to handle only the rain that falls on them. I want a bit of crown, maybe 7" higher at center than outer edge. If narrower, less crown. In most cases, build up from the rock base.
I agree on not having a road that is also a ditch, and hiring it done. Somebody who knows the land and the business can do wonders with the material that is available, and give you a long lasting product and not one you need to repair over and over. The company you hire will bring a roller. That allows for hammering in less than ideal material, and capping it with shot rock or similar. The results are tough. I know you don't get much rain but my recollection is thunderstorms and gullywashers, rather than the normal constant rain we get here. Those will leave a road like that first picture, if the runoff is not addressed from the start. I've built some long "driveways" and the goal was to get the water off the road and away as often as needed.
I would try to hire a dozer by the hour to rough in the roads, then rent or buy a cheap gannon or skid steer. A gannon in decent shape can be had for 18k if you look hard enough then just use it for maintenance.
Whats a gannon?
Surely not a Gannon like this one? This ones a kids toy! Do they make much bigger ones?
Cannot see that as much help in the desert rocky SW.
They do and they are more common out west. The larger ones are 420 size backhoe with a HD box blade on the back. Like this - https://www.machinerytrader.com/listing/for-sale/207860133/2021-caterpillar-415-il-loader-backhoes I've seen a few in south AL around the coast where the soil is sandy. Agree it would be worthless on rocky soil, it's why we don't see any in Central AL.
Used the larger ones on Skip Loaders here back a few Decades, not seen all too many since onset of CTLs and Skid loaders, are handier.
I disagree, I have a friend who used to own an engineering firm in SoCal and now that hes up in Ash Fork AZ he uses a Deere 210LE for all his maintenance of his roads which get really badly washboarded and he has some rock striations like in the pictures gannon = skip loader = box scraper
Gannon is a brand name. They make lots of different attachments usually associated with light construction or agriculture. The skip loader is usually a tractor type machine with a drag box installed on the back. Out here drag blades or boxes started in agriculture as much as a cleaning device and not something used for much more that driveway maintenance. Most were used for dragging manure out of dairy and livestock barns as anything. The drag blades have no down force which is why many had pieces of concrete tied on top of them for better penetration into the muck they were used in. The Gannon drag box was a modified drag with scarifier tines and possibly a tilting function that allowed it to operate out of the plane surface that the tractor was sitting on. In my time appraising for the Cat dealer I only saw a couple of those machines and the owners were trying to trade them back to rectify their mistake of purchasing a machine that could not do what the sales force insisted would be perfect.
Motor Grader of any value and functional would be as good a choice but not a universal fit for other duties.
Once the road was put in it would depend on what material was on top as far as maintaining it. If the ground could be worked with a CTL, a box scraper should also work. They can do a lot but they take some time to get proficient with. That's why some people don't like them. Adding gauge wheels makes them easier to use. They were/are very common on golf course's and large landscaping jobs. They can be faster than a skid steer or CTL on large projects. Some tractors like a Case loader/landscaper had down pressure on the 3pt. hitch. HD box scrapers can weigh 1500lbs. and require a 125 HP tractor. The best set up for a box blade is to have a hyd. top link and a hyd. tilt link. Hyd. scarifier teeth are also a good option so everything can be adjusted on the go as required. Woods owns Gannon and they have several different models of box blades. The Gannon models are heavier duty. Everything attachments has some extra heavy duty models as well. Heavy duty Large Shank Box Blade with lockable floating tailgate (everythingattachments.com)
If you have a road dozed in and built right, a box scraper is a great tool to help keep the rock on the road. Any kind of loader bucket will keep widening the road each time you grade it, and thin down the rock layer. It's just the nature of a loader bucket. If it does not angle, then it widens over time. An angle blade is also useful. You can keep pulling it in to the crown.
Here is a 2000 foot long driveway I built for a friend several years ago. The original logging road can be seen to the left on the way in. It was the worst ditch of a road due to pulling out stumps and also not being on any kind of edge and in a trough. I rode in on a quad he left for me, and I looked to my right and saw higher ground and that is where I went. That wide area at the top is where I daylighted the water away and over a bank for that section. I single-pitched it @2% and flip-flopped as needed to lose water. Later on he had a bunch of rock belly dumped on it as you see it now. I got two dump and pups to fix the first section where I did not need to move it. I got a quote for 3~7" shale at $14 a yard delivered by belly dump, but I would be gone before that could be delivered. I wanted at least 400 yards and he was thinking 600. https://goo.gl/maps/sg8X3fFhzaY7pRoC6 I had a 550 6 way and a week. This was my first look at it. I got scared of dropping my camera at that big puddle and quit videoing, but it did NOT improve. This was after cutting in the road but before any rock. I started out at a 30' bluff where I had daylighted that water away. That's only about half of it.
Got a farmer friend that uses one of these on his 1/3 mile drive.
The G series are good dozers, I have a D5G bought new in 2004 that's still running strong however OP probably won't be able to find one for his $20K max budget.
That's probably true on price CM.
What part of Arizona are you in? I'm down here in Saint David and I have a D3 Dozer that's in good shape. I see some guys have said it's a bit small for what you want to do but you can use it if you want. I'm not using it to much right now.
Appreciate that Brendon. We are just outside of Willcox. I may take you up on that. Thank you!
Definitely thinking my budget of $20k is not realistic at this point after reading most folks responses. This D7 just recently popped up for sale in Willcox where we are located. https://www.machinerytrader.com/listing/for-sale/215182013/1974-caterpillar-d7f-crawler-dozers
Sounds good just let me know! It has a tiny ripper on the back. Might help loosen something up.
D7F opinions Hello Huber_78. The thread "D7F opinions", link above, is a great read. There is a wealth of knowledge within this forum, to which we owe a great thanks to the people who started and maintain it, as well as previous contributors.
A D7 is overkill and very expensive to repair and it will need repairs. You'd be better hiring the initial shaping out. You don't just hop on D7 and you're an instant operator. Brendon's offer is very generous. Maybe rent an excavator if it's really hard ground and rocks, then a D3 could shape it.