I have a hired man who has shown some interest in learning more of the theory behind the work we do at a generator shop. I logged on to the local community college today looking for the old courses I took "way back in the 90s" Engine machining specifically. I learned a lot about engines by learning how to do the machine work deep inside. The rest I had already learned. I also took auto trans and dabbled in air conditioning. Well it turns out shortly after I left, they closed all those programs down. Just base level auto mechanics now it looks like, with no specialized tooling or anyone to teach it. I turned my eyes to construction - more courses there, but their electrician course does not seem to be offered this spring. Nothing on electronics at all. My friend took electronics at a private college, cost him plenty, they are now out of business. Now I am happy to teach, but I also have to run the business and do the high level technical tasks. How is anyone supposed to learn to do anything if there are no schools around to send people to? Not just a rhetorical question, I need to come up with real ideas here.
In the same boat here. There are votech schools here but based on the conversations I’ve had with a few students they aren’t taught much. I guess most of their time is spent tearing down a 5.9 Cummins and putting it back together. I asked one if they covered canbus and other data and electrical diagnostics and he said can what, we don’t have any buses at the school. I don’t know how to start one but a guy could make a killing with some sort of schooling geared toward heavy equipment, stationary applications etc. I have found a few online that teach really good electrical diagnostic courses, two excellent guys off YouTube of all places.
Didn't you know you're not supposed to diagnose or repair anything any more? You plug in the laptop and the computer tells you exactly what component to replace! If the laptop can't tell you the fault, you scrap the entire machine, and go buy a new one! Too easy! The new one is self-diagnostic anyway, and the ECU's are in permanent contact with the factory, and they self diagnose, and can tell you straight up, that you need a new machine! And besides, the factory doesn't want you to repair anything, that's why all their electronic hardware and software is proprietary and secret squirrel stuff! You don't dare try and alter any of that secret squirrel stuff, or your machine will squeal on you, and it'll be locked down, and the manufacturer will sue you! Sadly, this lack of good hands-on vocational training is a world-wide problem, and it's getting worse. Our trade colleges are called TAFE (Technical and Further Education), and their accent is steadily swinging away from teaching hands-on repair, to courses that are overwhelmingly tailored to knowing more about the thousands of safety rules and regulations, than about doing actual repair work. Many of the older guys who taught hands-on stuff in these colleges retired and no-one replaced them, because they were deemed to be teaching knowledge that would rapidly become obsolete.
Courses like that here are run by the province. There is a campus here and a second campus for heavy equipment mechanic close by. I think electrical is a 2 year full time course. Year 2 gives the option to go industrial, or residential. Then I think it is an apprentice program, and to be honest, I thought you just misspelled cannabis.
Now me being the self proclaimed young guy here I totally agree with you that there is no school to learn it the stuff (one being generator repair) was there it is I need it tomorrow make it work.kind of learning. The current learning I'm looking to self educate in its cummins ecms adjustment/ diagnosis. I need to fetch one off my lady freinds dad he was it set up to be the same as the one on his truck. I offen thought if there where a advanced ecm/ electrical class that I could take for a few weeks I would.
When I was in high school in the late 90’s we had a huge Ag program, this was no where special, just a decent sized public school in central NC. The school had a little 2-3ac farm on the grounds with a barn we could raise club calves or lambs in, had a JD 2155 tractor with loader to teach tractor driving, a greenhouse and two large, well equipped shops. One was welding/mechanical/ag engineering, the other was woodworking/general farm construction. I grew up on a working farm but still learned volumes in all the ag classes I took. Everything from animal husbandry, to crops and soils, surveying, building construction to welding and engine mechanics. Of course I was also active in FFA and was on the forestry team as well as the shooting team (which no one can believe there was such a thing based on todays world.) I honestly probably learned more in my high school ag classes than I did in 4yrs at college. In the 20 or so years between then and now there was a huge push for everyone to go to college and little emphasis on the trades. I think at some point society is going to realize that is a mistake, I just hope it’s not too late. The information is still out there it’s just not as widely available as it used to be. I also think we as a society are putting too much emphasis on technology. Sure it’s great and makes our lives easier, but all of those basic skills, processes, and mechanical/analog systems from decades past are still what everything is built on today. I think kids trying to learn whatever trade would be far better served by getting back to the basics first, then learning whatever modern technology they are using nowadays. It is quite startling how little the average person knows about how the world around them works today vs even 20-30yrs ago.
I called my automotive mentor when this all happened to see if he knew any programs that I had not found. He was lamenting all the classwork, if you can find it, is about phase angles and PWM and all sorts of useless stuff but nothing that simply teaches you how to use a VOM to see if it is working or not working. 99% of fixes are simple and I can't describe how long I have seen people flail for lack of fundamentals. Myself included sometimes.
I took wood shop and welding in 7th and 8th grade. I loved it. I took electronics courses years ago (I'm a CETa), it was great. I also have an FCC GROL from community college (yep I'm a dinosaur). Not to mention an FAA A+P that came with a university degree from a place nobody has ever heard of. That was probably 20+ years ago at the most recent, and a lot longer for others. I don't know where I'd tell someone to get training today.
If I want to learn a new skill/trade or figure out how to do something, the first thing I do is find all the books I can on the subject and read them thoroughly. The next step is to starting hanging around people doing whatever it is, and start watching and picking up on all the little things. From that point I have to just dive in and start doing it, if possible on my own projects and on my own terms, so the consequences of failure are less. Sometimes you just have to make your own classes.
Guys the rebirth of diesel/heavy equipment programs is at hand. I advise for a TON of them, all born/reborn over the past 2-4 years. I am directly advising the ones I interact with on the need for current generation skills to be taught to meet the needs of employers. WWII provided a huge pool of skilled labor. We’ve essentially been coasting since then off that push and now it’s finally given out with the retirement of that generation and the generations that followed in that inertia of the immediate post war era of the 50s-early 60s. Companies are finally realizing that. Mechanics and other trades are no longer in plentiful supply and it’s finally hitting home.
Birken, your post #7 is SOOO TRUE.. just look at how many threads are started by: I turned the key and nothing happened.. where should I START.?? And how many of them are finalized by just cleaning the battery connectors.!!
I was talking with a fairly recent journeyman welder. He said there's basically no stick welding the first 2 years but the 3rd. (final year) is mostly stick. Each training period is for 8 weeks. That's not a lot of training for stick. There's always going to be demand for stick welding.
WWCC--a community college with a diesel program. 25 years ago I was on it's board, allot has changed in that 25. The school shut down it's CDL school and diesel program seems the school got into major fiscal trouble in 2017 and just opened the diesel & CDL back up. The school also had a machinist program but it was deemed it wasn't a necessary trade anymore-CNC. * I stopped in there about 6 weeks ago to see the diesel side, still using the same old Cummins 250's from the early 60's as lab engines a total of 12 and one 7FB Cat. Those engines have been taken apart so many times the threads are shot. Very little in the way of newer/at least in this century items to work on or teach about. * Engine internals was brought up. Engine machine shops are thinning item, the ones left are push button--Mostly Rottler equipped, very little is left in the way of manual machines. I worked 5 years in auto machine, ran all types of bore bars, con rod resizing machines, cylinder head equipment even ran a Van Norman 448 Manual Crank Grinder. How many on here can say they have ground crankshafts. Thing is it's a dying business every little town had auto machine shops years ago. The closest major machine to me that's any good is 180 miles away. * Electrical-In Milton Freewater Ore there is a Napa dealer called Kilmers. In a separate spot in the back they had a guy who was a Motor Rewinder. He rewound just about anything, 1/2 horse to 300 horse turbine pump motors. He told them he was going to retire 5 years ago and to find someone he could teach the trade. Willie retired this last summer and they shut the door to that era of Kilmers. * Electrical in just trucks, yes it's mostly the same and yet it isn't, to be proficient at a Freightliner you really need some Factory training, I only know of two in 75 miles that are worth a ****. It's the area that needs to be split off in vocational schools all by it's self set up as a minimum 1 year coarse up to 2 year. * The trick is finding the interested-you have to have it in your gut, if not most don't last. It's not hitting home as much as one thinks, Like my old boss did when I retired. Spend 6.5 million put up a shop and install a Corporate care taker like Penske, Penske is the biggest hiring pool for Votech.
I'm not sure if it's related or not but the whole right to repair might be a moot point in the near future if there's no interest in the trades and/or no training available on how to fix and troubleshoot the latest technology. Training might have to come from the factory because it isn't available elsewhere.
Back in the day the shop teachers were no better than they are now. I've had a few specialty classes after school days, paid for by me, but everything doing mechanical was self learned back then, got to teach the teacher at times. Learned machinist work from dad, talking about it never in person and he was much better than the voc tec instructor. Doing certain types of work its either in you or not, its stupid to be trying to train people that don't have it. I've worked with lots of monkeys in all the various professions I've delved in, and the question that always comes up, how did they ever get into this type of work? Very few had what it takes, but then I have run into some very top notch people as well. I would never suggest to a young person to do any sort of mechanic work as a job. Its the people that know how to invest and sit doing easy work, that end up with a much better retirement than a person that breaks their rear everyday, smashes hands and fingers, cuts, burns and on and on, and then after retirement can barely wipe their butt, or even hold a pen at times.
I understand the class and lab is dependent on the teacher. But it sure was nice to have a supply of engines, transmissions, and parts to work on as well as your own stuff. They also had another class, A.T. 60, skill and speed development, come in to the shops on your own time so long as there was not another class using the facilities and work on your own stuff. Just to keep students interested and get them more practical experience and also have a fun time. That is hard to replicate in a private company environment but I intend to do what I can to facilitate it for anyone in my orbit. As it is I keep a little supply of tatered engines I think might be interesting to tear apart on a rainy day. But I can only teach 1 or 2 guys at a time vs a classroom with 20 people. Even if half those 20 will never get in the field.
I was very fortunate to go to a trade school where the instructors were experienced trades people recruited to teach their craft. They were not teachers who dabbled in a trade for a couple years. I remember my welding instructor saying there were a few high schools where the teachers were not experienced enough to be teaching welding. The school I went to was often referred to as a dummy school. Not everyone is into all the academic crap you learn in a regular high school. Sadly the school was converted into a regular high school in the early 90's and all the trades related equipment was auctioned off. They claimed there wasn't enough students interested in the trades and enrollment was way down. There are a couple things that they really screwed up. First is that it was hard to get into the trade school if you were somewhat smart with the academic stuff. They treated the trades as less than the academics, thus why the school had the dummy reputation. You didn't want anyone to know you were going to the dummy school. Some people just aren't into the regular crap they try to teach in high school but can excel at doing things with their hands and figuring things out. Someone off a farm would be a good example. On the other hand some people aren't for the trades. Too many think the trades are easy and you don't have to know much. I can't keep count of how many people I've talked to that think they can just get into welding pipeline and they'll make the big bucks. It's not at all easy and it's heavy hard work. My dad had to fight to get me into the trade school. They wanted me to go to a regular high school. The trades school students were treated like lesser people in a way. I think this perception has been getting worse and worse as time goes by. It is really stupid that people can sit at a computer and make considerably more money than highly skilled trades people who are doing very physical work. There's going to be a critical shortage of trades people in the very near future and a lot of it because the trades aren't given the recognition they deserve. I've thought in the past there should be kind of union of all trades combined and they should all go on strike just so everybody can fully comprehend how important they are. Things would come to a standstill!
True---I took a year coarse night class at CWU for welding in 80's. The best instructor was one in high school who was just a visiting substitute. He worked the ship yard in Bremerton, he had with him allot of items used in heavy steel construction, his first name was Bernard, Berny for short and was a ship yard burner. His skill with a torch was just short of awesome. Biggest most important thing I learned from him {Get good with a torch first--it will make your life as a welder much easier}. truest statement I can remember.
We have a school in Bellingham which is just south of me called Bellingham Technical College. Many years ago I was able to take evening classes in welding and machining. There were classes for plumbing and electrical ect. They also had a hydraulics class which I signed up for 5 years in a row. I'd sign up and the day before class was to begin I'd get a call saying it was cancelled. Finally they had enough interest in it that we got to hold class, Hydraulics 1! The first evening the instructor was asking each one what they did for a job and when I told him I did heavy equipment repair he asked me what I was doing there. The school required each student to begin at Hydraulics 1 before going on to 2, 3 & 4, I needed 3 but had to start at 1. Fortunately the other students were all in the same boat so we went into hyd. 2 the next week and were ready to go into 3 the following year. Unfortunately, admissions allowed 2 guys to join who should have been in hyd. -1, knew nothing about anything, so that ended. Now there are virtually no trades related evening classes and very few day classes. But you can take lamaze classes and "baby & me, our first year together" ect. Basically it has become just another community college because that's where the government money is. And the school administrator that messed up the whole works is now our county executive!
Are you sure? I think he might have moved here. lol
Accurate cutting beats hours of grinding anytime. Cutting is part of your training here but some guys still suck at it. Then there are a lot of non professional welders who can weld pretty good but put a torch in their hand and you might as well have put a blindfold on them. Always carry a tip cleaner in your pocket. It takes literally 10 seconds to clean a tip. About the same amount of time it takes to change a tip to the proper size for the job. It makes a much nicer cut. A lot people like propane because it's cheaper but acetylene is king for the best cuts.
I still think our apprenticeship programs run by the provincial governments are hard to beat
the schools need to build relationships with their local dealers and large companies. I bring scrap parts to my programs. Anything that fits in the back of my pickup truck. They can tear them apart, see how it works, see the failures/wear, etc.
In Alberta I agree. Nait is the largest training center in Canada and Alberta used to have the highest standards. They wouldn't even accept some Red Seal tickets from other provinces. Alberta also has a lot "required" trades where you have to be either a journeyman or an apprentice to work in that trade. This isn't very strictly enforced however. Thankfully the provinces have got together to make the requirements the same across Canada so a Red Seal is recognized in every province. They basically took the Alberta requirements and made them the standard to meet.
Have three within two hours of here, Linn State Tech College, HD Diesel course in hardly worth the money, as noted mechanisms are antique technology with one DD60 and it does not operate. Ozark Technical College but nothing really beyond Auto Course and full engine drive train reman course but nothing Truck or HE, then my old School but they eliminated the Diesel Course. Not seeing many schools even with a decent Automotive course anymore.